Limited Opportunities?

[cranialnecrosis]

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OK, I have a question that may be naive, ill-informed or both. I'm not trying to enrage anyone, but here goes: I am considering entering a DO program, but am wondering if this may limit my future options when it comes to residencies, fellowships, etc. If, when the time comes and I've considered all options, I decide to try to enter a specialty, i.e. cardiology, radiology, etc. would I be limited by having a DO degree as opposed to MD? I know a historical rift exists, although it has gotten better recently, but I am concerned that after all the time and effort, not to mention $$$ invested in a DO medical education, that I would be unable to match into a residency of my choice, simply because of any favoritism slanted towards MD's.

Again, any thoughts on this are appreciated. I need a candid reply to assist with my decision. Also, this thread is not meant to insult or anger anyone. Just need some honest truths! I tried to find threads that already exist to answer my question, but to no avail. Thanks for your replies!

 

[Dr Skeptismo]

What was your Step 1 score?

 

[Cheshyre]

You should read the TCOM vs. MSUCHM thread floating around now and abandon this thread before it becomes a battlefield.

 

[Daedra22]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133066

This is the official word on the subject. With hard work you can do anything an MD can do.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm going to skip the witty quips and anonymous internet badass bullying, and simply state ... no, you're fine.

Honestly, I could rant forever about how very few people (MD or DO) have the grades for most ROADS specialties, how you could 100% change your mind, how it's going to be about you as a student, how what's popular now won't be in 5 years, how you should focus on years 1/2 and worry about this later, AOA residencies, etc, etc, ... but it's easier just to tell you to work hard and see where you fall when that time rolls around. Remember that getting into allopathic school doesn't give you a pass to integrated-dermaplastic-radonc-cosmetic-ophthalmology, and going to a DO school doesn't doom you to a FP residency in the rural midwest.

 

[Dovey4424]

I have always been a firm believer in the quote: "If you work hard good things will happen." It seems that this rationale can be applied to choosing osteopathic medicine as a career choice as long as you are willing to put in the effort. It is not uncommon for DO students to take the MD boards, score competitively well, and gain seats in an allopathic residency. Therefore, taking the DO route is not going to limit your options. However, if you have your heart set on a particular pathway, then go for it.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

Why does everyone always say, "If you work hard you do as good or better than MD students" as if going to an osteopathic medical school is a handicap. MD students have to work hard as well, nothing is handed to them on a silver platter for simply attending a MD school. Geeze people, get out and research and talk to some REAL physicians. 🙄

 

[teacherman84]

I just had a similar dscussion with a urologist new to my area. He is a NSU grad who went on to do his residency at albert einstein in philly, a top rated MD program, and then a fellwship before becoming only the second DO at a very large practice. He told me he may have had to work harder to prove himself than some MDs in his program but none of them had an easy time...if you want to get into competative specialty, youre going have to put in the work regardess of your initials.

 

[ArsenalEPL4Life]

I currently work at a Nephrology practice with all MD's. I have asked several of them the same question and they each told me that the DO degree can make things harder....depending on specialty, location, etc. However, they also told me that as long as I work as hard as I can I will end up where I am supposed to be. Essentially, I guess it really does come down to how hard you study and how well you do on the board exams. They work/consult with many DO physicians, most are primary care but also include cardiologists, gasterintestinologists, emergency medicine physicians, rheumatologists, and even a DO radiation oncologist. In addition, one of the MD's I work with is married to a DO dermatologist who went to University of New England COM for her medical school. Instead of worrying about the initials at the end of my name and whether or not I will match into a certain residency, I realize I need to focus on the present more then the future. When I start school this fall I just need to focus on my academics, hit the ground running and work as hard as I can and hopefully the possibilities will be endless.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I currently work at a Nephrology practice with all MD's. I have asked several of them the same question and they each told me that the DO degree can make things harder....depending on specialty, location, etc. However, they also told me that as long as I work as hard as I can I will end up where I am supposed to be. Essentially, I guess it really does come down to how hard you study and how well you do on the board exams. They work/consult with many DO physicians, most are primary care but also include cardiologists, gasterintestinologists, emergency medicine physicians, rheumatologists, and even a DO radiation oncologist. In addition, one of the MD's I work with is married to a DO dermatologist who went to University of New England COM for her medical school. Instead of worrying about the initials at the end of my name and whether or not I will match into a certain residency, I realize I need to focus on the present more then the future. When I start school this fall I just need to focus on my academics, hit the ground running and work as hard as I can and hopefully the possibilities will be endless.

I wonder if the MD still feels a DO bias when he/she has to ask for money to buy things from the loaded derm spouse.

 

[Cheshyre]

Geeze people, get out and research and talk to some REAL physicians. 🙄

If we did that, we wouldn't need SDN. 😀

 

[PunkmedGirl]

If we did that, we wouldn't need SDN. 😀

No Excuse.😎

 

[Instatewaiter]

OK, I have a question that may be naive, ill-informed or both. I'm not trying to enrage anyone, but here goes: I am considering entering a DO program, but am wondering if this may limit my future options when it comes to residencies, fellowships, etc. If, when the time comes and I've considered all options, I decide to try to enter a specialty, i.e. cardiology, radiology, etc. would I be limited by having a DO degree as opposed to MD? I know a historical rift exists, although it has gotten better recently, but I am concerned that after all the time and effort, not to mention $$$ invested in a DO medical education, that I would be unable to match into a residency of my choice, simply because of any favoritism slanted towards MD's.

Again, any thoughts on this are appreciated. I need a candid reply to assist with my decision. Also, this thread is not meant to insult or anger anyone. Just need some honest truths! I tried to find threads that already exist to answer my question, but to no avail. Thanks for your replies!

Oh here goes again...

You want the honest truth... Yes a DO school will limit your options. How much is really up to you. If you do very well on the boards, perform well in your rotations, and don't set your heights too high, you won't even notice it. You wanna match a medium competitive IM residency- you shouldnt have too much trouble. If you want uro at MGH, DO is probably not your best option.


Very few 4th year DO students on this board (esp those who try and match into competitive programs) report feelinng they were on equal footing with MDs.

So if you have the option, MD is probably a better option than DO. Of course, DO is a much better option than not being a doctor.

 

[JaggerPlate]

UGH, why?? I'm sorry, I simply cannot have this discussion anymore.

 

[Instatewaiter]

UGH, why?? I'm sorry, I simply cannot have this discussion anymore.

Ummm... this is SDN. This debate goes on weekly.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Fine ....

Super competitive ACGME programs suck for everyone matching. Unless you're a superstar from a top 10 school with perfect everything, you're 900th in line for the Harvard Uro residency, and the best DO in the world is 1,000th. So yeah, super. On the whole, there are more specialized ACGME residencies that cater to top MD students, but the majority of MD students don't have the stats for these programs either, and essentially don't find themselves doing integrated plastics at Harvard. Case and point, here is the current Uro residency listing at MGH (the example you used):

Brian F. Chapin, MD
Georgetown University School of Medicine


Christopher J. Cutie, MD
Yale University School of Medicine


Jairaam R. Eswara , MD
Harvard Medical School



Ying Hua, MD
Stanford University School of Medicine



Susan Lahey, MD
Boston University School of Medicine


Melina J. McCarty , MD
Boston University School of Medicine


Audley L. M. Osbourne, MD
Harvard Medical School



Mohummad M. Siddiqui, MD
Harvard Medical School

Harvard, Harvard, Stanford, Yale, BU ... wait??? Where are the small state schools? Where are the lower tier MD schools? Isn't the MD a guaranteed pass??

See what I mean??? Doesn't mean you can't go to a state school and get Uro somewhere else, just the same as all the people who match AOA Uro out of DO schools.

Note - this is my last comment in this thread. I seriously cannot fight this battle again.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Fine ....

Super competitive ACGME programs suck for everyone matching. Unless you're a superstar from a top 10 school with perfect everything, you're 900th in line for the Harvard Uro residency, and the best DO in the world is 1,000th.

Case and point, here is the current Uro residency listing at MGH. Where are the small state schools? Where are the lower tier MD schools? Isn't the MD a guaranteed pass??

See what I mean??? Doesn't mean you can't go to a state school and get Uro somewhere else, just the same as all the people who match AOA Uro out of DO schools.

Note - this is my last comment in this thread. I seriously cannot fight this battle again.

Oh really, 'cause here is this years urology match: http://www.urologymatch.com/node/1041
Note that out of 3 spots at MGH urology, 2 were from low tier MD schools- VCU and Jefferson.

Would you like to remove your foot from your mouth?

 

[GraceEuphoria]

If you're really so concerned about it, just go to an MD school. End of story.

 

[Cheshyre]

... abandon this thread before it becomes a battlefield.

I told everybody here. This is madness.

To the OP. As much as I hate to say it, do your research on this subject. This is an area where SDN fails to function. Look up schools, check whether they have DOs or not. Then, consider the general academic stats of DOs, the general professional objectives, and the number of DOs in this country. Make your judgment on how biased you think the world is against DOs.

After that, take into account the 234e99 other factors you might consider when choosing between MD/DO. If you can, talk to a variety of doctors and get their opinion. Then, pick a direction.

Fact: DOs are in every specialty.
Fact: Not all dreams come true. I suggest watching the "Tell Me Baby" music video by Red Hot Chili Peppers as you mull this one over.

Take your time to figure things out.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Oh really, 'cause here is this years urology match: http://www.urologymatch.com/node/1041
Note that out of 3 spots at MGH urology, 2 were from low tier MD schools- VCU and Jefferson.

Would you like to remove your foot from your mouth?

Seriously, why the hell do you do this??? Is it the backstory? The post bacc/SMP -> lower/mid tier MD school with bad undergrad GPA, that makes you argue so obsessively on these threads???

Also, why the hell would I take my foot out of my mouth? Did you not see the info I posted??? There were only three spots this year, 2 went to whatever, 1 was still from UCSF ... so flux in the trend? ALL the residents right now are still from Harvard, Yale, etc. It's the exception that proves the rule. Just the same as the DO from NSU who matched ACGME derm this year. You wouldn't tell a good DO student to skip the DO match and only rank MD programs because of the TRENDS in the data, not because one year one person did it. Same thing here. You posted 2 people, I posted 8.

I used to like your input, I really did, but lately you've seriously become obsessed. It's beyond annoying, and I literally had to stop reading a thread earlier this week because it became this HUGE battle between you and J15. One MD student and one DO resident arguing SO intently in a pre-DO forum. I'm sick of the BS, and if you seriously want to keep essentially trolling these boards because you're bored, or because you squeaked into an MD school and were irritated people mentioned DO, or whatever the **** else ... bring it. Gloves off, I'm sick of it, thread closing, warning, whatever, I don't care - bring it. You've pissed me off.

 

[Haole]

To the OP:
I'm a DO in an MD anesthesia residency. In my department, and a few others (ER, IM, neuro) at my (big name academic) institution, DO's are welcomed. In most of the departments here, there are no DO's, not because of a lack of applicants but because they simply wont take a DO...whatever. Yes there are many other places to train and other programs that dont have that bias, but you will be limited in where you can train.

The truth is you can do whatever with both degrees. Ultimately you will be judged on your character, medical knowledge, and work ethic.

 

[JaggerPlate]

MGH Residency programs:

Rad Onc:
Mohamed Abazeed, MD/PhD
University of Michigan

Joanne Jang, MD/PhD
University of Pennsylvania

Monica Krishnan, MD
Harvard Medical School

Joseph Mancias, MD/PhD
Cornell University

Sean McBride, MD
Yale University

Itai Pashtan, MD
University of Chicago

Jonathan Schoenfeld, MD/PhM
Harvard Medical School

(bunch of no name schools, people without advanced combined degrees, etc)

Integrated PRS (had to separate people doing fellowship - g surg res more important, from integrated):

Duke: 1
Harvard: 9
BU: 1
UCLA: 1
U of Louisville (only random): 1

12/13 occupied by people doing integrated from crazy good, highly ranked, etc, MD schools.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Honestly, my whole point here was pretty simple ...

MDs in general probably have more specialized residency opportunities than DOs. However, DOs do have AOA residencies, so it's not like they are out in the cold when it comes to ROADS, etc. However, many of the highly sought after residencies at the ivory towers take students with perfect scores, grades, advanced degrees, AND from big named schools. This means that for the med student at a small state school with decent grades, and LORs, and a 240 Step I, don't be freaking shocked when you don't match Integrated PRS at MGH. That doesn't mean you won't be able to become a plastic surgeon, and it DOESN'T mean you still don't have the advantage over a DO from like CCOM trying to match integrated at MGH, but my point was that both have a very, very small shot, and people sometimes have the misconception that a US MD is a choose your own adventure book, and no matter what you do, grades you have, scores you have, etc, you can match wherever. CLEARLY, this isn't the case. Tier systems still exist, and if all the URO residents, all the Rad Onc residents, 12/13 of the Int. PRS residents at MGH don't make this point, I don't know what does.

I'm not saying anything crazy here, nor am I being one of those people who says DOs can do absolutely anything they want ACGME.

 

[Bacchus]

Enough. Stop arguing.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Haha, I think I struck a nerve. Is it bad that I love pissing you off Jagger? You take things so personally.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Haha, I think I struck a nerve. Is it bad that I love pissing you off Jagger? You take things so personally.

I wouldn't say you 'struck a nerve,' more like punched me in my bad eye, that I messed up over a long career of pointless battles, WHILE I was leaving a fight I never wanted to be involved with. Plus, you're lying if you say you don't take this subject matter personally in THESE forums, especially lately.

 

[raaska55]

Fact: DOs are in every specialty.
Fact: Not all dreams come true. I suggest watching the "Tell Me Baby" music video by Red Hot Chili Peppers as you mull this one over.

LOVE IT! if not the best thing I have seen on these forums - it's sure up there

 

[Cheshyre]

LOVE IT! if not the best thing I have seen on these forums - it's sure up there

I love that video dearly, even if all RHCP songs sound the same.😀

 

[Instatewaiter]

I wouldn't say you 'struck a nerve,' more like punched me in my bad eye, that I messed up over a long career of pointless battles, WHILE I was leaving a fight I never wanted to be involved with. Plus, you're lying if you say you don't take this subject matter personally in THESE forums, especially lately.

Yeah recently I have definitely been a bit more ardent than normal

 

[PunkmedGirl]

I'm going to a DO school so I can be a manager at IHOP.😎

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Random side note: So I read in a thread somewhere on here that had an example of this one DO who went to an MD neurosurgery residency. All good for him in the end, but he must have a good set of kahonas cuz he probably could have easily walked into an AOA ns residency.

 

[Everglide]

OK, I have a question that may be naive, ill-informed or both. I'm not trying to enrage anyone, but...

I read this part, decided to wait around two days... this thread has went where I expected. 😎

 

[Bones DO]

I'm going to a DO school so I can be a manager at IHOP.😎

IHOP has great career opportunities, but the DO degree will not automatically grant you a manager title. Rather, the DO degree will get you in the door (assuming good board scores), but you must be ready to start as a hostess and work your way up. It's an employer's economy, you know...

 

[JaggerPlate]

IHOP has great career opportunities, but the DO degree will not automatically grant you a manager title. Rather, the DO degree will get you in the door (assuming good board scores), but you must be ready to start as a hostess and work your way up. It's an employer's economy, you know...

IHOP has a big DO bias ... Denny's is much more DO friendly.

 

[gocatgo]

I'm partial to working for In-N-Out (and consuming their burgers) 😀

 

[creativename]

IHOP has a big DO bias ... Denny's is much more DO friendly.

I would say go ahead and apply to both regardless of IHOP's backroom predilection for MD's. The Denny's philosophy places a special emphasis on breakfast. While the same cannot be said of IHOP, it does offer a bevy of meal choices (if not at times overwelming) in their extravagant menu. Working for IHOP would do wonders for one's career whereas Denny's is more in tune with the traditional tenets that once heralded breakfast as being the most important meal of the day. Not to mention your OMM skills would atrophy at IHOP.

 

[MSmentor018]

I used to like your input, I really did, but lately you've seriously become obsessed. It's beyond annoying, and I literally had to stop reading a thread earlier this week because it became this HUGE battle between you and J15. One MD student and one DO resident arguing SO intently in a pre-DO forum. I'm sick of the BS, and if you seriously want to keep essentially trolling these boards because you're bored, or because you squeaked into an MD school and were irritated people mentioned DO, or whatever the **** else ... bring it. Gloves off, I'm sick of it, thread closing, warning, whatever, I don't care - bring it. You've pissed me off.

LMAO!! strong work....both of you, good debate

To the OP:
In most of the departments here, there are no DO's, not because of a lack of applicants but because they simply wont take a DO...whatever. Yes there are many other places to train and other programs that dont have that bias, but you will be limited in where you can train.

yep....it's crappy but unfortunately true. I've seen this first hand after applying for rotations/residency. I chose to be a DO and I accept how the cards are dealt. the same stigma follows IMG/FMG. I always thought it was odd that according to NRMP, US seniors are US MD grads while DO, IMG, carib schools are lumped as indep applicants.

 

[PunkmedGirl]

IHOP has great career opportunities, but the DO degree will not automatically grant you a manager title. Rather, the DO degree will get you in the door (assuming good board scores), but you must be ready to start as a hostess and work your way up. It's an employer's economy, you know...

IHOP has a big DO bias ... Denny's is much more DO friendly.

REally??😱

I'm partial to working for In-N-Out (and consuming their burgers) 😀

Naw, I think IHOP is best simply because they are the mecca of all you can eat pancakes. Yum.😀

I would say go ahead and apply to both regardless of IHOP's backroom predilection for MD's. The Denny's philosophy places a special emphasis on breakfast. While the same cannot be said of IHOP, it does offer a bevy of meal choices (if not at times overwelming) in their extravagant menu. Working for IHOP would do wonders for one's career whereas Denny's is more in tune with the traditional tenets that once heralded breakfast as being the most important meal of the day. Not to mention your OMM skills would atrophy at IHOP.

Wow. Now I really can't wait to start my career as a DO.😀

 

[wishintobedoc]

I wonder if the MD still feels a DO bias when he/she has to ask for money to buy things from the loaded derm spouse.

Yeah no kidding!!! That is great.

 

[dudechiefboss]

Not to hijack the thread, but is a fellowship in endocrinology competitive/difficult as a DO? - sorry if this is a stupid question.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Not to hijack the thread, but is a fellowship in endocrinology competitive/difficult as a DO? - sorry if this is a stupid question.

Umm I think endo is middle of the road with respect to IM fellowships. I'm pretty sure where you do residency is going to be more important than your degree. I'm also pretty sure there are far more ACGME fellowships for Endo than AOA, so although you probably could go from AOA IM -> ACGME IM fellowship, it may be safer to going ACGME IM.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

This basic issue always seems to come up. Is a DO less competitive compared to an equivalent MD. The answer is yes. Do DOs have more difficulty matching in ACGME residencies, yes again. How much more? This is debatable in IM, FP, Peds and OB/GYN DOs will find no difficulty matching at most levels however at the upper echelons of IM and other primary care specialties there will be more difficulty i.e. MGH IM. If a DO nails the USMLE and applies in the ACGME or SG match they will likely be competitive assuming their USMLE is in the same league as MD candidates. DOs do match in competitive allopathic fields, although this is uncommon for several reasons i.e. smaller pool of candidates, fewer sit for the USMLE, DOs tend to do less well on the USMLE as they tend to prep for an exam with a somewhat different focus. Only you decide whether you get your choice residency. If you have a 188 USMLE and a 440 COMLEX, derm is out of the question. Neglect research and that decreases the odds for a competitive specialty. Depending on your interests and your abilities you may or may not get your coveted residency or fellowship. That however is more dependent on you than the letters after your name. Anti-osteopathic sentiment is more common amongst premeds than it is amongst physicians.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Not to hijack the thread, but is a fellowship in endocrinology competitive/difficult as a DO? - sorry if this is a stupid question.

Endocrine is not very competitive. I agree it would be cool and more competitive if you were dealing with cushings, addisons, SIADH and the other cool syndromes. However, in reality a LOT (if not almost all) of endocrine is diabetes, which makes it a lot less competitive.

Umm I think endo is middle of the road with respect to IM fellowships. I'm pretty sure where you do residency is going to be more important than your degree. I'm also pretty sure there are far more ACGME fellowships for Endo than AOA, so although you probably could go from AOA IM -> ACGME IM fellowship, it may be safer to going ACGME IM.

While you probably could cross the road and go from AOA to ACGME, if you want to do an ACGME fellowship might as well an ACGME residency and make it much easier on yourself.

Getting into a midtier ACGME IM residency is very common from a DO school. That should give you ample access to some endocrine fellowships.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Endocrine is not very competitive. I agree it would be cool and more competitive if you were dealing with cushings, addisons, SIADH and the other cool syndromes. However, in reality a LOT (if not almost all) of endocrine is diabetes, which makes it a lot less competitive.



While you probably could cross the road and go from AOA to ACGME, if you want to do an ACGME fellowship might as well an ACGME residency and make it much easier on yourself.

Getting into a midtier ACGME IM residency is very common from a DO school. That should give you ample access to some endocrine fellowships.

Do fellowships take your med school into account? Or at that point is it purely where and how well you performed during residency that mainly matter?

 

[dudechiefboss]

Umm I think endo is middle of the road with respect to IM fellowships. I'm pretty sure where you do residency is going to be more important than your degree. I'm also pretty sure there are far more ACGME fellowships for Endo than AOA, so although you probably could go from AOA IM -> ACGME IM fellowship, it may be safer to going ACGME IM.

Endocrine is not very competitive. I agree it would be cool and more competitive if you were dealing with cushings, addisons, SIADH and the other cool syndromes. However, in reality a LOT (if not almost all) of endocrine is diabetes, which makes it a lot less competitive.



While you probably could cross the road and go from AOA to ACGME, if you want to do an ACGME fellowship might as well an ACGME residency and make it much easier on yourself.

Getting into a midtier ACGME IM residency is very common from a DO school. That should give you ample access to some endocrine fellowships.

Thank you for the help - very much appreciated.

 

[Laryngophed]

Do fellowships take your med school into account? Or at that point is it purely where and how well you performed during residency that mainly matter?

My understanding is that your performance in residency is the largest determining factor. Some programs may consider your medical school or degree (and undoubtedly someone will come along and say "I heard fellowship X doesn't take graduates from school Y or tier Z!!!!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!one!!!!!exclamation point!!!!" I think at the point of applying for fellowships (usually the PGY-2 year of IM residencies IIRC) you've demonstrated that you can/will be competent and are willing to do the work to do so and that's all that would matter to a fellowship PD. But I'm not a fellowship PD, nor have I been an applicant so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

[TexasPhysician]

My understanding is that your performance in residency is the largest determining factor. Some programs may consider your medical school or degree (and undoubtedly someone will come along and say "I heard fellowship X doesn't take graduates from school Y or tier Z!!!!!!!!!eleven!!!!!!one!!!!!exclamation point!!!!" I think at the point of applying for fellowships (usually the PGY-2 year of IM residencies IIRC) you've demonstrated that you can/will be competent and are willing to do the work to do so and that's all that would matter to a fellowship PD. But I'm not a fellowship PD, nor have I been an applicant so take what I say with a grain of salt.

Fellowships would rarely take medical school into consideration. Where you do your residency WILL have an effect on your fellowship opportunities though.

 

[Parts Unknown]

Fellowships would rarely take medical school into consideration.

That depends on how competitive the fellowship is. When the director of a really hot subspecialty is bombarded with applications, he/she may absolutely consider the applicants' respective medical schools while parsing through them.

 

[scpod]

Endocrine is not very competitive. I agree it would be cool and more competitive if you were dealing with cushings, addisons, SIADH and the other cool syndromes. However, in reality a LOT (if not almost all) of endocrine is diabetes, which makes it a lot less competitive....

You forgot thyroid. It's DM and thyroid problems and I can't personally think of a worse torture than dealing with those two things all day long. They couldn't pay me enough to do it. So, no, it's not all that competitive from my perspective 🙂

 

[Instatewaiter]

Fellowships would rarely take medical school into consideration. Where you do your residency WILL have an effect on your fellowship opportunities though.

To add to this, for IM fellowships you apply early in your second year. You have no time during intern year to do research or improve your application. So you basically have the same application you did for residency applications but with the addition of a year in a program.

So your program plays a much larger part for fellowship than medschool does for residency selection.