LizzyM 74, complete early... and still no interview invites?

[Med Ed]

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Why Pitt as a safety? I thought Pitt was top tier

I would never call Pitt a safety. But the OP has good numbers and is currently doing research, so it would be one place to consider.

 

[raiderette]

Why not Iowa? They like high stats and have separate admission and waitlist placement than instate applicants.

 

[petit_haricot]

Hi guys, I'm back with some new schools to add and would love to get some feedback if you have any to offer(what to add/keep, what to emphasize if I do apply to these places, etc.).

Just a reminder that I want to balance out my schools list by adding ~4 more schools. My list is top-heavy right now so I am trying to choose schools that are on the other end of the range for me-- not looking for any more targets. I need to stay in a more urban area for personal reasons, but apart from that I'm open to suggestions.

Dartmouth
Rutgers RWJ (step-family in NJ, my family will be relocating there soon to join up... is that good enough for ties to the state?)
U Vermont
SUNY Downstate
St. Louis
Hofstra

So all together, I'm looking at:

Reaches

• Columbia
• Mt. Sinai
• Stanford
• Duke

Low yield schools (probably shouldn't have applied to these, sigh)

• Mayo
• Brown

Targets

• UCSF (moved this to targets since I have significant faculty/research ties here)
• UCLA
• USC
• Case Western
• UCSD
• UCI
• Rochester

"Safety" (for lack of a better word-- I know these are not a sure thing!)

• UCD
• Jefferson
• four more!

Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

 

[Med Ed]

Thanks in advance for everyone's help.

Dartmouth: The opposite of urban. Ridiculously competitive.
Rutgers: Public with heavy in-state preference. Would not bother unless New Jersey resident.
U Vermont: ~80 OOS seats, Burlingon not very urban.
SUNY Downstate: Public, large, might be worth a shot.
SLU: Go for it.
Hofstra: Small, new, private, might be worth a shot.

Don't forget Albany, And if you are applying to Jefferson I still think you should throw on Drexel and Temple.

 

[Affiche]

I think Dartmouth would be fine if you can get past the non-urban location. They interview more than 12% of OOS applicants, your MCAT is a good fit (near the 90th percentile MCAT but not above).
With regards to the Philly schools, Temple is in a dodgy part of the city (like really sketchy) and Drexel receives more than 10,000 applications/hands out rejections like they're candy.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

I'd suggest you add Baylor and UTSW. Yes, the both strongly favor Texans, but they'd love your MCAT score and you'd love the tiny tuition and the TexMex food. Plus easy cheap flights back to CA.

And a few more upper-mid tier schools if you're feeling nervous and can spare the cash. With a 37 MCAT, I wouldn't hit the 'obvious safeties' because they'll know it.

What do you base this on? I would think that the process is selective enough that even high stat applicants might go to "safety" schools.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Darthmouth is quite competitive. You'll get varying info on how "non trad friendly' they really are like their reputation is, I've heard multiple different things. But regardless, I think you can be competitive but there might be better bang for your buck options for "safeties". Not a terrible option though.

Robert Woods OOS is a waste of time. 98% of the class is IS, and no your ties to that state aren't really a factor to that extent.

Vermont is a decent option.

Downstate again is 85+% IS. Not a good "lower tier safety" type option

Hofstra is ok but regardless of what they say about having no IS bias over half their class is from New York.

Saint Louis is a good choice.

If you can only pick four schools for safeties(and I would recommend more than 4, you are talking about schools that interview less than 10% of OOS applicants) here is where I would give consideration:

Wake Forest, Oakland, Quinnipac, Saint Louis, Vermont, Penn State, Creighton, Albany, Medical College Wisconsin. Check the 90th percentile MCATs here, its important. If some of these schools have 90th percentile stats in the 34-35 range, I'd be somewhat more wary of applying there.

The thing that makes things tricky for giving advice is you have multiple MCAT attempts.

Some schools will average and take it as a 34. For others, they'll see that 37 and your score will be too high for them to consider you a good candidate to use an interview slot on. Some might officially average but see that 37 and think there's little chance you'll actually matriculate there and go somewhere else and you'll be out of luck again. So having said that I think public schools that favor IS applicants but still take a fair amount OOS might be worth consideration here. Ohio State comes to mind. U of Arizona, USF (idk if fully public but favor IS applicants), Iowa and Wisconsin as well.

My advice would be to call each of these public schools. From what I've gathered talking to alot of people in these situations and reading many posts on here, a number of public schools will give very specific advice to OOS applicants about cut offs and whether they are competitive. Iowa in particular has been known to do this. There's nothing to lose and if a school gives you very encouraging feedback about your chances it might be a better use of an application than one of these lower tier schools with 90th percentile MCATs around 35.

 

[DokterMom]

What do you base this on? I would think that the process is selective enough that even high stat applicants might go to "safety" schools.

My rationale for adding the top TX schools is (speculating) that for the few OOS acceptances they're allowed to give out, they will be looking for applicants who will bring their MCAT averages up and/or bring something unique to the class. A 37 is a great score that's above just about any school's average. OOS students will choose to go there because tuition is SO CHEAP and the schools are really, really good -- no nobody's safety.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

My rationale for adding the top TX schools is (speculating) that for the few OOS acceptances they're allowed to give out, they will be looking for applicants who will bring their MCAT averages up and/or bring something unique to the class. A 37 is a great score that's above just about any school's average. OOS students will choose to go there because tuition is SO CHEAP and the schools are really, really good -- no nobody's safety.

I was replying to the second part of your post!

 

[GrapesofRath]

My rationale for adding the top TX schools is (speculating) that for the few OOS acceptances they're allowed to give out, they will be looking for applicants who will bring their MCAT averages up and/or bring something unique to the class. A 37 is a great score that's above just about any school's average. OOS students will choose to go there because tuition is SO CHEAP and the schools are really, really good -- no nobody's safety.

Only thing that complicates things is the multiple MCAT attempts and not knowing whether those schools will average the MCAT attempts and look it as more of a 34 than a 37.

 

[DokterMom]

I was replying to the second part of your post!

"And a few more upper-mid tier schools if you're feeling nervous and can spare the cash. With a 37 MCAT, I wouldn't hit the 'obvious safeties' because they'll know it."

Ah - that part. OK, by the "obvious safeties" I mean the private schools with lower MCAT averages that everyone refers to on SDN for lower-stat applicants: Rosy Franklin, Drexel, Commonwealth. They get a TON of applicants, and have a reasonable expectation that they will not be the top choice school for an applicant with a high MCAT and otherwise good qualifications. They'll assume they're his/her safety school. Therefore, if they extend an interview invitation, they are wasting one of their available interview slots on an applicant who is either:

• likely to choose a higher-ranked school, or
• rejected by all of the other schools that interviewed him/her.

Either way, not a win.

 

[petit_haricot]

1. Overwhelmed by the amount of effort everyone's giving in their responses, thank you guys all so much. I actually feel like I'm making somewhat informed decisions about which schools to add which is making me feel better.

2. To add to the relief, I actually got my first interview invite last night! To UCSF!! One of my reach schools (and my top choice). I'm still going to add at least two of the schools discussed above, but at least now I don't have to carry around that feeling of dread/panic that comes with having 0 II.

 

[DokterMom]

1. Overwhelmed by the amount of effort everyone's giving in their responses, thank you guys all so much. I actually feel like I'm making somewhat informed decisions about which schools to add which is making me feel better.

2. To add to the relief, I actually got my first interview invite last night! To UCSF!! One of my reach schools (and my top choice). I'm still going to add at least two of the schools discussed above, but at least now I don't have to carry around that feeling of dread/panic that comes with having 0 II.

Great news - Yay! Congratulations and knock 'em dead.

You've hit the 'Interview Attire' thread, right?

 

[petit_haricot]

Great news - Yay! Congratulations and knock 'em dead.

You've hit the 'Interview Attire' thread, right?

Yes! It was how I spent last night actually-- what a great thread to finally get to be a part of.

 

[Med Ed]

1. Overwhelmed by the amount of effort everyone's giving in their responses, thank you guys all so much. I actually feel like I'm making somewhat informed decisions about which schools to add which is making me feel better.

2. To add to the relief, I actually got my first interview invite last night! To UCSF!! One of my reach schools (and my top choice). I'm still going to add at least two of the schools discussed above, but at least now I don't have to carry around that feeling of dread/panic that comes with having 0 II.

Congrats! With any luck you will get into UCSF or one of the other UCs, and this will all be an unpleasant memory. In the meantime, because I am an admissions hound, I crunched the following for some of the schools mentioned earlier (all OOS for most recent year reported):

Drexel
13,356 applicants
907 interviews (6.8% of applicants)*
173 matriculated (19% of interviews)

George Washington
13,659 applicants
1093 interviews (8.0%)
166 matriculated (15.2%)

Chicago Medical School
9,779 applicants
431 interviews (4.4%)
128 matriculated (29.7%)

Tulane
8,733 applicants
456 interviews (5.2%)
166 matriculated (36.4%)

Wake Forest
7,218 applicants
418 interviews (5.8%)
88 matriculated (21.1%)

GPA (10th-90th)
Drexel: 3.36-3.92
GWU: 3.44-3.93
Chi Med: 3.33-3.94
Tulane: 3.27-3.90
Wake: 3.31-3.92

MCAT (10th-90th)
Drexel: 29-35
GWU: 27-35
Chi Med: 27-34
Tulane: 30-36
Wake: 30-35

Note that the schools with lower interview percentages have higher proportions of interviewees matriculate. This reflects the relative draw of the schools and the sophistication of their screening. Your GPA is on the good side of the 10-90 distribution for all of these schools. As Grapes said, you may or may not be above the 90th percentile for their MCATs, depending on how they deal with your retake. Hence, whether or not you apply to any of them, none would be unreasonable.

*Getting a little close to 7%, I would say.

 

[Med Ed]

Ah - that part. OK, by the "obvious safeties" I mean the private schools with lower MCAT averages that everyone refers to on SDN for lower-stat applicants: Rosy Franklin, Drexel, Commonwealth. They get a TON of applicants, and have a reasonable expectation that they will not be the top choice school for an applicant with a high MCAT and otherwise good qualifications. They'll assume they're his/her safety school. Therefore, if they extend an interview invitation, they are wasting one of their available interview slots on an applicant who is either:

• likely to choose a higher-ranked school, or
• rejected by all of the other schools that interviewed him/her.

Either way, not a win.

This is why Drexel interviews about 1,200 people, and extends God-only-knows how many offers to fill a class of 260. Despite this, Drexel has a mean MCAT of 32 and GPA of ~3.64, which makes it average on a national level. Schools in this situation are accustomed to throwing a lot of sticky stuff at the wall in order to get some of it to stay put.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that being a CA resident is a perverse help in this situation. If I were Rosy, Drexel, or Commonwealth and received an application from a 3.6/35 who was a resident of, say, Texas, New York, or Virginia, I would probably toss it in the trash. But California (and to a lesser extent Washington and Oregon) residents are different, as the state churns out so many well qualified applicants who cannot win seats in-state. The private east coast and midwest schools have fed on this phenomenon for years.

 

[Med Ed]

With regards to the Philly schools, Temple is in a dodgy part of the city (like really sketchy)

You say that like it's a bad thing. Dodgy/sketchy just means more interesting cases and more opportunities to get ones hands dirty.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

"And a few more upper-mid tier schools if you're feeling nervous and can spare the cash. With a 37 MCAT, I wouldn't hit the 'obvious safeties' because they'll know it."

Ah - that part. OK, by the "obvious safeties" I mean the private schools with lower MCAT averages that everyone refers to on SDN for lower-stat applicants: Rosy Franklin, Drexel, Commonwealth. They get a TON of applicants, and have a reasonable expectation that they will not be the top choice school for an applicant with a high MCAT and otherwise good qualifications. They'll assume they're his/her safety school. Therefore, if they extend an interview invitation, they are wasting one of their available interview slots on an applicant who is either:

• likely to choose a higher-ranked school, or
• rejected by all of the other schools that interviewed him/her.

Either way, not a win.

Hmm what about in the case of an applicant that would otherwise be a candidate for top tier schools save for one aspect of their app? For example an applicant with a 37 MCAT and good experiences but 3.5 GPA or a candidate with a 3.9 GPA and great experiences but a 30 MCAT. Would these candidates get an interview at "safety" schools?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Congrats! With any luck you will get into UCSF or one of the other UCs, and this will all be an unpleasant memory. In the meantime, because I am an admissions hound, I crunched the following for some of the schools mentioned earlier (all OOS for most recent year reported):

Drexel
13,356 applicants
907 interviews (6.8% of applicants)*
173 matriculated (19% of interviews)

George Washington
13,659 applicants
1093 interviews (8.0%)
166 matriculated (15.2%)

Chicago Medical School
9,779 applicants
431 interviews (4.4%)
128 matriculated (29.7%)

Tulane
8,733 applicants
456 interviews (5.2%)
166 matriculated (36.4%)

Wake Forest
7,218 applicants
418 interviews (5.8%)
88 matriculated (21.1%)

GPA (10th-90th)
Drexel: 3.36-3.92
GWU: 3.44-3.93
Chi Med: 3.33-3.94
Tulane: 3.27-3.90
Wake: 3.31-3.92

MCAT (10th-90th)
Drexel: 29-35
GWU: 27-35
Chi Med: 27-34
Tulane: 30-36
Wake: 30-35

Note that the schools with lower interview percentages have higher proportions of interviewees matriculate. This reflects the relative draw of the schools and the sophistication of their screening. Your GPA is on the good side of the 10-90 distribution for all of these schools. As Grapes said, you may or may not be above the 90th percentile for their MCATs, depending on how they deal with your retake. Hence, whether or not you apply to any of them, none would be unreasonable.

*Getting a little close to 7%, I would say.

I'll add that schools accept well more than they actually matriculate. Goro's general rule is schools accept 2-3 times as many as they matriculate. For LizzyMs school it's more towards 3X ad many. Gyngyn has said it's probably over 2X for his school. In general there are many schools that accept over 50% they interview

 

[Med Ed]

Hmm what about in the case of an applicant that would otherwise be a candidate for top tier schools save for one aspect of their app? For example an applicant with a 37 MCAT and good experiences but 3.5 GPA or a candidate with a 3.9 GPA and great experiences but a 30 MCAT. Would these candidates get an interview at "safety" schools?

Neither of those examples are exactly terrible.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Neither of those examples are exactly terrible.

You think they would both not given an interview by safeties then?

 

[Med Ed]

You think they would both not given an interview by safeties then?

Quite the opposite. The means last cycle were a 28.6 MCAT and 3.55 cGPA for applicants. Someone who comes in with a 37/3.5 or 30/3.9 is in the top half of the pool to start with. If the rest of the application is reasonable and the person has a sane strategy for choosing schools, I would expect multiple interview offers.

 

[wasteofspace323]

Quite the opposite. The means last cycle were a 28.6 MCAT and 3.55 cGPA for applicants. Someone who comes in with a 37/3.5 or 30/3.9 is in the top half of the pool to start with. If the rest of the application is reasonable and the person has a sane strategy for choosing schools, I would expect multiple interview offers.

Shes referring to getting filtered of safety schools for stats too high. The point is that they're in the top half of the pool.

 

[piii]

Congrats! With any luck you will get into UCSF or one of the other UCs, and this will all be an unpleasant memory. In the meantime, because I am an admissions hound, I crunched the following for some of the schools mentioned earlier (all OOS for most recent year reported):

Drexel
13,356 applicants
907 interviews (6.8% of applicants)*
173 matriculated (19% of interviews)

George Washington
13,659 applicants
1093 interviews (8.0%)
166 matriculated (15.2%)

Chicago Medical School
9,779 applicants
431 interviews (4.4%)
128 matriculated (29.7%)

Tulane
8,733 applicants
456 interviews (5.2%)
166 matriculated (36.4%)

Wake Forest
7,218 applicants
418 interviews (5.8%)
88 matriculated (21.1%)

GPA (10th-90th)
Drexel: 3.36-3.92
GWU: 3.44-3.93
Chi Med: 3.33-3.94
Tulane: 3.27-3.90
Wake: 3.31-3.92

MCAT (10th-90th)
Drexel: 29-35
GWU: 27-35
Chi Med: 27-34
Tulane: 30-36
Wake: 30-35

Note that the schools with lower interview percentages have higher proportions of interviewees matriculate. This reflects the relative draw of the schools and the sophistication of their screening. Your GPA is on the good side of the 10-90 distribution for all of these schools. As Grapes said, you may or may not be above the 90th percentile for their MCATs, depending on how they deal with your retake. Hence, whether or not you apply to any of them, none would be unreasonable.

*Getting a little close to 7%, I would say.

FYI your numbers for CMS are wrong. From interviewing there this year:
800-1000 interviews.
190 matriculate.
Probably 400 accepted.

 

[Med Ed]

FYI your numbers for CMS are wrong. From interviewing there this year:
800-1000 interviews.
190 matriculate.
Probably 400 accepted.

My numbers are pulled from the MSAR, and are, as I said, from the most recent year reported. Yours are projections for the current cycle.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The thing about interviewing numbers I've never gotten a clear answer on is are those MSAR numbers people who have been offered an interview or people who attended an interview? My guess is the former but you can see how confusion might arise; many people who get offered an interview simply don't accept it for a variety of reasons.

 

[Affiche]

You say that like it's a bad thing. Dodgy/sketchy just means more interesting cases and more opportunities to get ones hands dirty.

For a young woman, it is a bad thing. You can get plenty of patient diversity in a big city without living in its sketchiest part.

 

[Med Ed]

Shes referring to getting filtered of safety schools for stats too high. The point is that they're in the top half of the pool.

So the question is whether an applicant with an extremely unbalanced MCAT/GPA will be viewed negatively by the so-called safety schools. The answer is not simple.

Established schools have a very good sense of who is unlikely to matriculate based on numbers, but it doesn't exempt them from reading the application to look for mitigating information. For example, 3.8/36 from Texas might get no love from Philly schools... until they read in the secondary that his spouse is getting transferred to PA. That said, some of the lower stat schools will still make interview offers to a lot of low yield candidates in order to nab a few of them.

 

[Med Ed]

The thing about interviewing numbers I've never gotten a clear answer on is are those MSAR numbers people who have been offered an interview or people who attended an interview?

Attended. One more reason why % interviewed is potentially misleading.

 

[Med Ed]

For a young woman, it is a bad thing. You can get plenty of patient diversity in a big city without living in its sketchiest part.

Good point. Perhaps you should petition Temple med to become men-only for safety reasons.

 

[Affiche]

Good point. Perhaps you should petition Temple med to become men-only for safety reasons.

What are you even saying? Location should absolutely be considered when applicants are weighing options. The OP wouldn't be making an informed decision to apply to Temple if she didn't know about the school's notoriously iffy location. Now you're spewing (offensive) nonsense because again, you think an important factor is irrelevant.

 

[Med Ed]

What are you even saying?

That your sniping on Temple's surroundings is not useful or helpful. Anyone who interviews at, and is accepted by, Temple med is capable of making an informed decision regarding the ups and downs of its location.

It's not a "diversity" issue, btw, it's an issue of choosing to get educated in an area of great neglect and need.

 

[Affiche]

That your sniping on Temple's surroundings is not useful or helpful. Anyone who interviews at, and is accepted by, Temple med is capable of making an informed decision regarding the ups and downs of its location.

It's not a "diversity" issue, btw, it's an issue of choosing to get educated in an area of great neglect and need.

It's helpful because the OP can only afford to apply to a couple more schools. If she knows right now that she doesn't want to live in the hood then she can make an informed decision to not apply there and invest in an application somewhere she'd actually consider attending.
There are plenty of medical schools that rotate in areas of great need and neglect, as well as set up free clinics that students can volunteer in. There's no reason for anyone to live in an area they don't feel safe in or don't want to live in just for the sake of education. They'll get the education regardless.
To be honest, you seem pretty removed from the application process.

 

[GrapesofRath]

I mean there are a fair number of lower tier medical schools in less than desirable locations, if we start discriminating like that people's lists will start dwindling pretty fast. Off the top of my head, Temple, Drexel, Loyola, Rosalind, Rush, Quinnipac(yes I haven't heard good things about this area), Tulane(same as Quinnipac I've heard of repeated problems around this area from an MS2 I know there) just to name a few.

 

[Affiche]

I mean there are a fair number of lower tier medical schools in less than desirable locations, if we start discriminating like that people's lists will start dwindling pretty fast.

"We" aren't discriminating or making a decision here, OP is. I mentioned the location so OP is aware of it and can make an informed decision of whether or not to apply there.

 

[Affiche]

If we're going to help her make a list then we should give her all the information we know about each school. Not being forthcoming with such information isn't helpful, and pretending that location is never an important factor for applicants is silly.

 

[bearintraining]

GraphPad Prism is a life saver. Taking a biostats class right now and trying to learn R.

I fought R for the longest time, until I had an excel sheet of data with 80,000 rows 🙂

 

[Med Ed]

If we're going to help her make a list then we should give her all the information we know about each school.

Excellent idea. I'll start with Temple.
Founded: 1901
Setting: urban (but dodgy, like, really sketchy)
Enrollment: 879
US News Research Rank: #55 nationally, #2 in Philadelphia
Cost of new medical education building: $160 million
MCAT (10th-90th): 29-36
GPA (10th-90th): 3.46-3.94
Primary clinical site: Temple University Hospital
Beds: 722
Gross revenue: $5.98 billion (2014, #13 for non-profit hospitals)
GME:
Residency programs: 17
Fellowship programs: 16
Other significant affiliations: Fox Chase Cancer Center
Number of Nobel Prizes won by Fox Chase researchers: 2

and pretending that location is never an important factor for applicants is silly.

Where was this sentiment expressed?

 

[Med Ed]

To be honest, you seem pretty removed from the application process.

Which one? College? Graduate school? Medical school? Residency? Fellowship? Real job(s)? I am fairly involved in the medical school application process, albeit from the institution side these days.

You seem pretty sheltered. "The hood"? Really?

 

[neekzg]

1. Overwhelmed by the amount of effort everyone's giving in their responses, thank you guys all so much. I actually feel like I'm making somewhat informed decisions about which schools to add which is making me feel better.

2. To add to the relief, I actually got my first interview invite last night! To UCSF!! One of my reach schools (and my top choice). I'm still going to add at least two of the schools discussed above, but at least now I don't have to carry around that feeling of dread/panic that comes with having 0 II.

To take a break from all the bickering--I just wanted to congratulate you on your interview. That's freaking incredible! Good luck with the rest of your cycle, I'm sure you're going to kill it. Do continue to add schools though, it would still be a wise move at this point.

 

[petit_haricot]

To take a break from all the bickering--I just wanted to congratulate you on your interview. That's freaking incredible! Good luck with the rest of your cycle, I'm sure you're going to kill it. Do continue to add schools though, it would still be a wise move at this point.

Thank you very much! This interview is giving me a lot more excitement and energy for this cycle, and I'm still planning to add schools.

@Med Ed and @rachiie01, you have been two of the most helpful individuals on this thread, and it's much appreciated. At this point though, I think we all understand what each of you is saying, and going back and forth like this is probably not worth it.

 

[jk1006]

I mean there are a fair number of lower tier medical schools in less than desirable locations, if we start discriminating like that people's lists will start dwindling pretty fast. Off the top of my head, Temple, Drexel, Loyola, Rosalind, Rush, Quinnipac(yes I haven't heard good things about this area), Tulane(same as Quinnipac I've heard of repeated problems around this area from an MS2 I know there) just to name a few.

id take Rush off that list. It's close to downtown chicago and in the same location as UIC medical campus. It's actually quite a nice neighborhood, i live there right now

 

[Med Ed]

@Med Ed and @rachiie01, you have been two of the most helpful individuals on this thread, and it's much appreciated. At this point though, I think we all understand what each of you is saying, and going back and forth like this is probably not worth it.

Look, the internet was created to decentralize vital military information in case of global warfare, and to allow strangers to have petty arguments. Step aside.

 

[ImmunoLove]

Look, the internet was created to decentralize vital military information in case of global warfare, and to allow strangers to have petty arguments. Step aside.

Came here to glean some advice about my own situation...but 🤣

Got some advice and a serious chuckle. Thanks!