LMU-DCOM heightened monitoring

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TwistedTea

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    Am I the only one who wants to know more about the above?
    Everyone in our class and most classes knows about it. But for the sake of the person (plaintiff) involved I’m sure it’s against TOS to disclose anything.

    that being said you can likely find details online. I read the entire transcript since I know people and will say it was blatant poor patient care and I hope this person gets all they sue for. Multiple physicians that *were* employed by the school were involved over multiple visits. So it was not just a single slip up.

    Interesting enough the school later sold their clinic to a big local hospital system. Probably related. It sounds far fetched but I can assure you none of it came as a surprise.
     

    Mass Effect

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      Everyone in our class and most classes knows about it. But for the sake of the person (plaintiff) involved I’m sure it’s against TOS to disclose anything.

      that being said you can likely find details online. I read the entire transcript since I know people and will say it was blatant poor patient care and I hope this person gets all they sue for. Multiple physicians that *were* employed by the school were involved over multiple visits. So it was not just a single slip up.

      Interesting enough the school later sold their clinic to a big local hospital system. Probably related. It sounds far fetched but I can assure you none of it came as a surprise.

      Already looked and no details online, just that there's a lawsuit. But that's ok, I don't need to know and I'd rather you respect the plaintiff's privacy.
       

      NurWollen

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        This isn't just a problem with DO schools though, it's pretty universal. The further you get from taking boards, the more out of touch you are with what is relevant material.
        That speaks to your school's lousy hiring practices. Any school worth their salt would intervene on lectures on the above. Part of getting a teaching job is demonstrating a sample lecture. That should have been nipped in the bud or the person not hired. If the person lapsed into that during their lecture after getting the job, it should have been corrected immediately by the school.

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        NurWollen

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          My experience was very different. The thing I (and almost the entirety of my class) loathed the most about the clinical faculty we brought in for systems blocks was that they were exactly that, specialists in each of those fields who hadn't sat for step 1 in ages or really hadnt taught much. With few exceptions, most of them quickly went down the rabbit hole of zebra conditions in their field, and the management thereof that might have been good if we were residents or fellows, but we just needed to start with the basics of each of these fields.

          What I think preclinical courses should focus on: What are the common things, the basic science behind those common things, and then maybe some of classic zebras that make good Step questions. The venn diagram of what was presented during systems blocks and what was found in Step 1 prep/useful stuff for rotations had almost no overlap.

          I can't say that FM teaching every system is ideal, but having subspecialists (who suck at teaching) teach everything came with massive headaches as well.
          I guess part of the difference is that my school wasn't systems based. We had a more classical curriculum. Anatomy, physiology, histology, neuroanatomy, etc during MS1, and then path, micro, pharmacology etc during MS2.

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          Goro

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            This isn't just a problem with DO schools though, it's pretty universal. The further you get from taking boards, the more out of touch you are with what is relevant material.

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            100% truth. There are multiple complaints int he mD student forum over the years about how faculty will teach their research instead of the relevant material. And gawd knows I've seen tons of MD Faculty at MD schools teach to preclinical students as if they're teaching residents.
             
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            TwistedTea

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              Our curriculum at dcom was normal stuff mostly first year and path and more pharm second year. I think afterward they added in anatomy review lectures and stuff also. Honestly liked it this way better than if it would have been systems through the whole two years. I have Many things to gripe about in regard to the school but touching on each system several times is not one of them. It’s just a better way to do things I feel. It allowed us to tie things together for boards better and having cardio renal resp (even with hit or miss teaching) allowed some nice integration to be had.
               

              TwistedTea

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                Already looked and no details online, just that there's a lawsuit. But that's ok, I don't need to know and I'd rather you respect the plaintiff's privacy.
                Yeah I think we have to subscribe to pacer which eh isn’t worth it just for gossip. I googled myself looks like there are a few over the past several years with LMU. With them suing the ABA over their sucky law school not being initially accredited.
                 
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                NorthEastDO

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                  Fourth year graduating, matched into my top rank in a competitive specialty. Half of the faculty here (many of the PhDs, all of the pharm department) were wonderful, but almost all of the clinical faculty as well as all of admin were so terrible that the environment at the school can only be described as toxic and malignant. They would talk down to us about professionalism, and then act blatantly unprofessional themselves in both actions and words. The EPC class both years was so disorganized that they had to take it to the curriculum committee one week after the class ended in the first semester to amend the grading scheme after 80% of the class failed the OSCEs, and the practicals were inconsistent in how the professors would grade technique. It also took entire semesters to get practical grades back more than once. The main guy in charge of EPC was also condescending and rude, despite being regarded as being horrible at his job. There is an ongoing fight between the two OPP professors that have been there the longest, and they will mock each other in front of the class openly. The new OPP Professor is great, and I feel bad that she has to put up with that every day. The clinical rotation core sites are overall a joke, and just getting worse. 20% of my class ended up in Norton, VA, and another 50% ended up in the other BFE sites, they justified this by saying “you get to learn how to be the nurse, phlebotomist, doctor, social worker at rural sites and you get to do so much more than at urban sites!” well we’re not in school to become phlebotomists, nurses, social workers. They lost two of the good sites (the Texas hospital did not renew the contract, and a rumor is going around that the Arkansas site was “given away” to the ARCOM school despite the hospital wanting to continue its relationship with DCOM). They’re replacing the sites they’re losing with little rural community hospitals that have completely homogeneous pathology and populations and the bare minimum when it comes to medical services. They raised tuition this year by $3000, and their reasoning was “well every other school raised theirs too.” I have no clue where they’ll be sending the Knoxville additions to the class numbers for rotations. The problems with this school are nowhere near exhausted by what I’ve mentioned, it seemed like every single experience that most of my classmates had with this school was negative. The first two years of medical school at DCOM were the worst years of my life, and it seems like everyone I’ve talked to at DCOM feel the same. The only reason it got better in clinicals is because we got away from harrogate and faculty from the school didn’t want to be involved anymore so they leave us alone. We match in spite of DCOM. 0/10 would not recommend!
                   
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                  TwistedTea

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                    Fourth year graduating, matched into my top rank in a competitive specialty. Half of the faculty here (many of the PhDs, all of the pharm department) were wonderful, but almost all of the clinical faculty as well as all of admin were so terrible that the environment at the school can only be described as toxic and malignant. They would talk down to us about professionalism, and then act blatantly unprofessional themselves in both actions and words. The EPC class both years was so disorganized that they had to take it to the curriculum committee one week after the class ended in the first semester to amend the grading scheme after 80% of the class failed the OSCEs, and the practicals were inconsistent in how the professors would grade technique. It also took entire semesters to get practical grades back more than once. The main guy in charge of EPC was also condescending and rude, despite being regarded as being horrible at his job. There is an ongoing fight between the two OPP professors that have been there the longest, and they will mock each other in front of the class openly. The new OPP Professor is great, and I feel bad that she has to put up with that every day. The clinical rotation core sites are overall a joke, and just getting worse. 20% of my class ended up in Norton, VA, and another 50% ended up in the other BFE sites, they justified this by saying “you get to learn how to be the nurse, phlebotomist, doctor, social worker at rural sites and you get to do so much more than at urban sites!” well we’re not in school to become phlebotomists, nurses, social workers. They lost two of the good sites (the Texas hospital did not renew the contract, and a rumor is going around that the Arkansas site was “given away” to the ARCOM school despite the hospital wanting to continue its relationship with DCOM). They’re replacing the sites they’re losing with little rural community hospitals that have completely homogeneous pathology and populations and the bare minimum when it comes to medical services. They raised tuition this year by $3000, and their reasoning was “well every other school raised theirs too.” I have no clue where they’ll be sending the Knoxville additions to the class numbers for rotations. The problems with this school are nowhere near exhausted by what I’ve mentioned, it seemed like every single experience that most of my classmates had with this school was negative. The first two years of medical school at DCOM were the worst years of my life, and it seems like everyone I’ve talked to at DCOM feel the same. The only reason it got better in clinicals is because we got away from harrogate and faculty from the school didn’t want to be involved anymore so they leave us alone. We match in spite of DCOM. 0/10 would not recommend!


                    They really need to just have a third partY company run epc. They haven’t been able to get it anywhere close to right since that tool has been course director. I’m not even close to liberal but the man is definition of a paternalistic a$$hole FM doc who apparently soaped into his position after failing to match. And you can tell he’s a salty a$$ little man for it cuz he always rants and raves of all the times he “saved a patient from some XYZ resident who matched into something I would have liked to have done during residency” stories.
                     
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                    NorthEastDO

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                      They really need to just have a third partY company run epc. They haven’t been able to get it anywhere close to right since that tool has been course director. I’m not even close to liberal but the man is definition of a paternalistic a$$hole FM doc who apparently soaped into his position after failing to match. And you can tell he’s a salty a$$ little man for it cuz he always rants and raves of all the times he “saved a patient from some XYZ resident who matched into something I would have liked to have done during residency” stories.

                      haha I didn’t realize he SOAPed but it makes a lot more sense now. Once he bragged in EPC lab about how placed more chest tubes in the trauma bay than the residents with rotations on trauma team during residency and I was like yeah ok. During the PE review for 2021 he apparently kept saying “don’t believe 2020, they don’t know how to get you guys ready to pass the PE” and when someone said something along the lines of our PE pass rates suck why should anyone believe the school, he was just like “ok.” Haha, but really, the schools gonna wonder why all their bridges get burnt.
                       
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                      TwistedTea

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                        haha I didn’t realize he SOAPed but it makes a lot more sense now. Once he bragged in EPC lab about how placed more chest tubes in the trauma bay than the residents with rotations on trauma team during residency and I was like yeah ok. During the PE review for 2021 he apparently kept saying “don’t believe 2020, they don’t know how to get you guys ready to pass the PE” and when someone said something along the lines of our PE pass rates suck why should anyone believe the school, he was just like “ok.” Haha, but really, the schools gonna wonder why all their bridges get burnt.

                        Ah yeah just like he told us to not listen to 2019 when actual successful students from that class told us how to pass the PE. Pretty sure I failed every epc thing he threw at us then passed the real deal first time. Not taking his prep seriously and doing my own shyt was the best idea ever. Such a cluster F of a class and waste of time. I’m sure the above is what most peeps did.
                         
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                        dfib slim

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                          Man, and I though it was bad when I went here. Looks like it keeps going downhill. And FYI that poster from last month who was asked to withdraw actually repeated 2nd year before failing classes again.
                           
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                          NorthEastDO

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                            Man, and I though it was bad when I went here. Looks like it keeps going downhill. And FYI that poster from last month who was asked to withdraw actually repeated 2nd year before failing classes again.

                            Yeah I honestly didn't think that their two strikes and you're out deal was unreasonable, other than the fact that they have such low admission standards that they accept and take first year tuition from students that they know have a greater than 50% chance of failing out. If they would raise their standards for admission, their attrition would probably improve. But in order to raise their standards, they would need to get higher quality applicants, and in order to do that they would need to improve the quality of the school, and therein lies the problem.
                             
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                            DrStephenStrange

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                              Yeah I honestly didn't think that their two strikes and you're out deal was unreasonable, other than the fact that they have such low admission standards that they accept and take first year tuition from students that they know have a greater than 50% chance of failing out. If they would raise their standards for admission, their attrition would probably improve. But in order to raise their standards, they would need to get higher quality applicants, and in order to do that they would need to improve the quality of the school, and therein lies the problem.
                              LMU averages better stats or on par with many other DO schools for that matter. The VCOMs for example are always around 498-500 for their average MCAT per class, and yet their attrition is not that bad. I don't think the problem has to do with the ability of the students to succeed, but mostly the school quality itself.

                              LMU averages 502 MCAT
                               
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                              TwistedTea

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                                LMU averages better stats or on par with many other DO schools for that matter. The VCOMs for example are always around 498-500 for their average MCAT per class, and yet their attrition is not that bad. I don't think the problem has to do with the ability of the students to succeed, but mostly the school quality itself.

                                LMU averages 502 MCAT
                                There is a HUGE variance with our school between top of class and bottom. I have no data or proof to compare to other schools but even the school admitted this once.
                                The school is pretty good at attempting to stifle talent though. Gotta keep 1% primary care baby.
                                 
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                                NorthEastDO

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                                  There is a HUGE variance with our school between top of class and bottom. I have no data or proof to compare to other schools but even the school admitted this once.
                                  The school is pretty good at attempting to stifle talent though. Gotta keep 1% primary care baby.

                                  Yeah, plus they have like 1/3 of the class made up of masters students who don’t take a real medical school course load until second semester of first year. Of the entire group that made up the attrition for my class, 3/4 were masters students. Compounding the masters group with accepting a bunch of subpar applicants makes for a great Caribbean school model recipe.
                                   
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                                  BorntobeDO?

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                                    From what i've heard, the classes above us ruined it for us so **shrugs** thanks
                                    It’s always the classes above. Just got to third year? Congrats your the new class above, you ruined everything for everyone below you. There is only one constant that doesn’t change: the admins. I am surprised anyone believes them at this point.
                                     
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                                    BorntobeDO?

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                                      Yeah, plus they have like 1/3 of the class made up of masters students who don’t take a real medical school course load until second semester of first year. Of the entire group that made up the attrition for my class, 3/4 were masters students. Compounding the masters group with accepting a bunch of subpar applicants makes for a great Caribbean school model recipe.
                                      This post is right that a large amount of masters students fail in the third semester. It’s heartbreaking, they never had a full load till they are already in 150k of debt and then they get the boot. It’s not all, but I estimate that it’s around 30/50.

                                      DCOM takes around 50 masters students each year at Harrogate, and I would guess they take about 20%(25 or so) of the Knoxville campus class as well.

                                      If your in the masters program and think they are taking 94% of students, I got news for you: that was back in 2014 before they expanded to 180+ masters students. But then again DCOM is kind of last chance U for some of the masters students so I get why they (the students) do it. I just know premeds used to ask about this, and it wasn’t out there, now it is. There used to be an annual report on the website that detailed how many masters students they took, but I think it’s hidden better now.

                                      I agree with most of the comments above, I don’t think DCOM is alone in its behavior, but that certainly isn’t an excuse for it. But what can I say: it is what it is.
                                       
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                                      TwistedTea

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                                        Yeah, plus they have like 1/3 of the class made up of masters students who don’t take a real medical school course load until second semester of first year. Of the entire group that made up the attrition for my class, 3/4 were masters students. Compounding the masters group with accepting a bunch of subpar applicants makes for a great Caribbean school model recipe.
                                        Lol yeah we had a couple masters students as like class pres and vp until the class voted them out for being worthless. Physiology and immunology were the downfall for a lot of those master students who would brag about having an A in their ONE class they had to take in the falll
                                         

                                        TwistedTea

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                                          This post is right that a large amount of masters students fail in the third semester. It’s heartbreaking, they never had a full load till they are already in 150k of debt and then they get the boot. It’s not all, but I estimate that it’s around 30/50.

                                          DCOM takes around 50 masters students each year at Harrogate, and I would guess they take about 20%(25 or so) of the Knoxville campus class as well.

                                          If your in the masters program and think they are taking 94% of students, I got news for you: that was back in 2014 before they expanded to 180+ masters students. But then again DCOM is kind of last chance U for some of the masters students so I get why they (the students) do it. I just know premeds used to ask about this, and it wasn’t out there, now it is. There used to be an annual report on the website that detailed how many masters students they took, but I think it’s hidden better now.

                                          I agree with most of the comments above, I don’t think DCOM is alone in its behavior, but that certainly isn’t an excuse for it. But what can I say: it is what it is.
                                          Hell a lot of them fail second too. First time taking more than one heavy science class
                                           

                                          TwistedTea

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                                            It’s always the classes above. Just got to third year? Congrats your the new class above, you ruined everything for everyone below you. There is only one constant that doesn’t change: the admins. I am surprised anyone believes them at this point.
                                            He left out the part about how they get uworld paid for now. Your welcome scroe
                                             

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                                              Many of the good faculty have left for better positions while the swamp rats remain in control of the curriculum.

                                              The attrition rate is very high. We graduated less than 200 and started with 243 or so. Yes some repeat but 1/5 chance of not making it through straight through is pretty abysmal.

                                              We had several people not match in our class.

                                              A lot of people matched into not good programs, not by personal choice.

                                              We will find out more about the lawsuit this fall, Interesting to see where this goes


                                              The school sold off their clinic to covenant health. They could not even maintain a medical practice when proper up by a medical school and faulty. How pathetic!

                                              The school is now opening a physical therapy and occupational therapy programs.

                                              They have split their PA program from the control of DCOM to the actual school.

                                              They keep touting the DMS program like its actually worth a darn. Completely shocked they have not opened up a pharmacy school as of yet.

                                              The Knox campus is getting more students this year I believe.

                                              They are still fighting for enough clinical spots, the school has lost plenty of GOOD spots and replaced them with rural hospitals in the middle of nowhere with limited specialty support.

                                              The law school keeps graduating students hundreds of K in debt probably taking 40k a year defense attorney jobs or dead end private practice jobs that just aren't needed.

                                              The vet school graduates students hundreds of thousands in debt for jobs that probably pay little more than a nurse makes.




                                              Much of this is not school specific but university is not your friend.
                                               
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                                              NorthEastDO

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                                                Many of the good faculty have left for better positions while the swamp rats remain in control of the curriculum.

                                                The attrition rate is very high. We graduated less than 200 and started with 243 or so. Yes some repeat but 1/5 chance of not making it through straight through is pretty abysmal.

                                                We had several people not match in our class.

                                                A lot of people matched into not good programs, not by personal choice.

                                                We will find out more about the lawsuit this fall, Interesting to see where this goes


                                                The school sold off their clinic to covenant health. They could not even maintain a medical practice when proper up by a medical school and faulty. How pathetic!

                                                The school is now opening a physical therapy and occupational therapy programs.

                                                They have split their PA program from the control of DCOM to the actual school.

                                                They keep touting the DMS program like its actually worth a darn. Completely shocked they have not opened up a pharmacy school as of yet.

                                                The Knox campus is getting more students this year I believe.

                                                They are still fighting for enough clinical spots, the school has lost plenty of GOOD spots and replaced them with rural hospitals in the middle of nowhere with limited specialty support.

                                                The law school keeps graduating students hundreds of K in debt probably taking 40k a year defense attorney jobs or dead end private practice jobs that just aren't needed.

                                                The vet school graduates students hundreds of thousands in debt for jobs that probably pay little more than a nurse makes.




                                                Much of this is not school specific but university is not your friend.

                                                The only reason most of the few good faculty stay are because they have connections to the area or don't want to uproot their family, everyone else seems to just use the school as a stepping stone into academics and once they get a good faculty position at a better school in a better area, they flee and never look back. The school also treats the physicians that precept the third and fourth year students with indifference, one of the agreements for taking a student for a rotation is that they get paid $1000 for the month, and many of the preceptors don't even know this because the school does not ever send it. The clinical dean blatantly ignores emails from students and preceptors as well.

                                                The attrition rate is approaching that of the main four caribbean schools. At least if you go to one of those schools, you have a beach and infrastructure.

                                                I saw that they were planning on a PT/OT program and rolled my eyes, I'm surprised that they created a DVM program before PT/OT...the standards to start a DVM program are high, PT/OT standards are even lower than DO and just slightly above online NP. And the DMS is a huge scam....if you're a PA and want a doctorate, get a real doctorate and go to medical school or get a PhD.

                                                The good clinical sites are dwindling. The Arkansas site was given away to ARCOM by our main dean for no apparent benefit to DCOM. The Texas site signed a contract with an MD school in the area shortly after ARCOM got the Arkansas site, the DCOM faculty have since been talking crap about how the Texas site "sold out" to the MD school that got them, even though DCOM not only gave no benefit in their contractual agreement with the Texas site, but made their lives harder by being difficult in scheduling and by pushing to be able to send more students to the Texas site than the hospital could handle. The Nashville site dropped DCOM this past year as well, also for similar reasons as the Texas site. One of the Norton hospitals also dropped DCOM to become a full VCOM site, I think that when you get to the point of fighting over a hospital in Norton for a core site, you need to just admit that you're a joke of a school. Now they keep adding random rural Kentucky sites in lieu of all the good spots they've been losing. Good luck to the current and future students. Especially since DCOM keeps trying to up their class sizes (along with their tuition, by thousands of dollars every year), I guess that those extra $55k seats really come in handy when you're trying to pull in the massive profits that get LMU and DCOM excited.

                                                The law school is a joke, neither LMU nor the defendant physician are using any LMU law graduates or faculty for their defense in the current malpractice suit that is being litigated right now. Their students cannot pass the bar, and the schools been sued at least once by LMU law grads for breach of contract since many of them are unable to actually practice law after graduating with all of that debt.

                                                The vet school is, surprisingly, of good quality. They have good faculty, and seem to get good results. They also seem to treat their students well - while the DCOM students were always miserable and treated like lesser humans by faculty and admin, the vet students were always decently happy and well supported by their faculty. They also have an agreement with UK for a dual DVM-PhD option - all DCOM has is the MS and the MBA (non-accredited, by the way) from LMU. As mentioned though, they get slapped with the crazy debt that we take on, but the ROI of a veterinary degree is much lower than a human medicine degree, so paying off those loans is at least three times as difficult for them as it is for us I imagine.

                                                The match situation is not good, and the merger did not help DO's at all, especially from the bad schools like DCOM. If you look at the list, there's a palpable dichotomy of academic matches (high quality, large tertiary centers affiliated with MD schools), and little community sites. The school provides no guidance, and many of my classmates got to fourth year not even understanding how the match process works. The school constantly says that the USMLE is not required to get a good match, and actually discourage students from taking it. The best thing that you can do once you get to third year is to completely cut them off and keep them at a distance and believe nothing that they say.

                                                They also have a faculty that encourages using OMM on COVID patients, and he thinks that OMM helped fix the Spanish flu. So there's that.
                                                 
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                                                Goro

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                                                  They keep touting the DMS program like its actually worth a darn. Completely shocked they have not opened up a pharmacy school as of yet.
                                                  The Pharmacy field is completely saturated. A friend of mine who works at a COP tells me that up to five may close this year, including CNU's.

                                                  They also have a faculty that encourages using OMM on COVID patients, and he thinks that OMM helped fix the Spanish flu. So there's that.

                                                  I have DO colleagues who are working on protocols for this. Hey, it's a hypothesis worth testing.

                                                  On the Spanish flu thing, did't the True Believers tell that "there's data that DO-treated patients had lower mortality from Spanish flu than the MD treated ones"?

                                                  Except when you you actually look at the story, it's just self-reported data. Murky, at the absolute best.
                                                   
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                                                  TwistedTea

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                                                    The Pharmacy field is completely saturated. A friend of mine who works at a COP tells me that up to five may close this year, including CNU's.

                                                    They also have a faculty that encourages using OMM on COVID patients, and he thinks that OMM helped fix the Spanish flu. So there's that.

                                                    I have DO colleagues who are working on protocols for this. Hey, it's a hypothesis worth testing.

                                                    On the Spanish flu thing, did't the True Believers tell that "there's data that DO-treated patients had lower mortality from Spanish flu than the MD treated ones"?

                                                    Except when you you actually look at the story, it's just self-reported data. Murky, at the absolute best.


                                                    Not to mention they are making pharmacists do residency now just to be competitive for entry level jobs. Sounds like one of the worst career choices ever. But let's be honest, pharmacists have their place in helping physicians with medicines but that career was doomed to fail for a long time.
                                                    Sounds like the perfect degree for LMU to open up and then push for "pharmacist led care in rural Appalachia." I better hush they might get some bad ideas if they read this.


                                                    There is also data that drinking urine cures, corona, completely self proclaimed from myself and anecdotal of course. (want to by some?)
                                                     

                                                    NorthEastDO

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                                                      Not to mention they are making pharmacists do residency now just to be competitive for entry level jobs. Sounds like one of the worst career choices ever. But let's be honest, pharmacists have their place in helping physicians with medicines but that career was doomed to fail for a long time.
                                                      Sounds like the perfect degree for LMU to open up and then push for "pharmacist led care in rural Appalachia." I better hush they might get some bad ideas if they read this.


                                                      There is also data that drinking urine cures, corona, completely self proclaimed from myself and anecdotal of course. (want to by some?)

                                                      Give it five years and it’ll occur to LMU that they can rake in millions from naive students that can take out full loans. It is what it is.

                                                      And the fact that we had a COVID class taught by imbeciles that did not know anything about COVID or virology, and then suggested OMM might be a good idea, says everything that needs to be said about the quality of non-clinical education at this joke of a medical school.
                                                       
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                                                      Goro

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                                                        Its pretty amazing this thread has been kept alive for two years. Personally I do not have anything else to add but just wow.
                                                        While every schools, from JAB to Harvard, has disgruntled students, LMU is one of those rare schools where you see something that rises above background. These complaints aren't just 1-2 people...and they're quite consistent.

                                                        It makes me surmise that just as there are malignant residencies, there are malignant medical schools!
                                                         
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                                                        futurebostondoc227

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                                                          Hey everyone, I am a current student at the Knoxville campus (now a second year). Most of what is listed here is not at all true in my experience and my experiences have been overall very positive (though of course no school is perfect). Our faculty (at least in Knoxville) are very good instructors, receptive to suggestions, and friendly. I'm happy to answer any specific questions you folks may have.
                                                           
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                                                          ThrowawayDO2288

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                                                            Hey everyone, I am a current student at the Knoxville campus (now a second year). Most of what is listed here is not at all true in my experience and my experiences have been overall very positive (though of course no school is perfect). Our faculty (at least in Knoxville) are very good instructors, receptive to suggestions, and friendly. I'm happy to answer any specific questions you folks may have.
                                                            You’re a first year, you’ll get there. I thought the school was great when I started. Then the new wears off and you start to smell the Bull **** and you hate the place.

                                                            im a newly minted 4th year and we actually thought it was hilarious all the extra perks they gave the inaugural Knoxville class to cover up all the deficits you guys have to deal with. Like a free smoothie bar is gonna make up for the fact that there is basically a skeleton crew of faculty on campus.

                                                            a few things I will address to be fair:

                                                            dismissal topic: 100% false. when I was in pre-clinicals, 1 failure meant you remediate, 2 failures means you repeat the semester/year UNLESS they are in separate years and you just remediate again. 3 pre-clinical failures and you’re forced to withdraw from the program unless you can illustrate substantial life circumstances, which in my opinion is fair because they can’t just let you keep remediating and redoing years. It looks bad on them and there is no way you will match. Sucks but it’s true. Also I’d say about half my class failed a course at some point in the first two years.

                                                            The good news is 3rd year is a joke in comparison. Attending’s will always give you >90% evals as long as you show up, try ,and aren’t a complete douche bag to literally everyone on the team including patients. Also it goes without saying but don’t be stupid and read. Most attendings are personable and nice and young enough to remember what it’s like to be a med student. They also respect your time enough to send you home if nothing is going on. For example on IM if you came in around 7:30 rounded on your patients, wrote good notes, and could have an intelligent conversation about the patients then they would send you home by 2-3. Basically do that, pass the comats, and do the didactic stuff and you’re guaranteed to make the highest letter grade possible. You also have 3 attempts to pass the comats without redoing a rotation, which is unlikely since the only way you can fail a comat is by not studying all month.

                                                            Also, clinical admin at the main campus are helpful. Not always knowledgeable on every topic, but they want to help if you’re nice and friendly. That also includes the clinical dean, personable guy, nice, helpful, and he means well. But with any admin they aren’t your friends, at best he’s a relatable boss.

                                                            bad 3rd year comments: what they say about the sites are true. I’ll address that first. Most of the new sites are all rural hospitals in Kentucky. Blessing and a curse in my opinion. At my site we scrubbed every surgery, assisted every birth on L&D and even saw a lot of surprising pathology I wouldn’t expect in that area. Interacted with some residents too but it was sporadic. Overall I don’t have many complaints there, third year is what you make of it. You cant sit around do the bare minimum 2 patients/notes per day on IM and expect to learn as much as someone who’s rounding of 5-6 writing notes and seeing ED consults.

                                                            EPC stuff: personally I never had a “horrible” experience. The standardized patients were hit or miss, but I don’t agree with the “main guy” being bad. Frankly I liked him and found him personable and helpful. Blaming him for the course’s issues is like blaming an Army Sergeant for following a general’s orders. It’s not like he has much to work with considering the minimal resources the school puts into that department.

                                                            curriculum: it’s been said before (by me I’m pretty sure) but it’s bad. For every 1 lecture you have that is board relevant in second year, you’ll have another that isn’t. It’s all testable, and the schedule is poorly designed. This is evidenced by my class‘ comlex 1 performance. ~11% fail rate, up almost 5% from the previous year. They didn’t share the actual score with my class as a whole but the rumor from “well connected” classmates is it’s in the 480-500 range definitely lower from last year.

                                                            Blame the class above you comments: some of it is warranted, some isn’t. For example a few of my beloved classmates cheated on some exams towards the end of second year by having a smart person who studied write hard questions and answers down and hide them in the women’s bathroom under a toilet seat one of the professors found the cheat sheet but couldn’t find identify the perpetrators. So they cracked down on the first and second years HARD. But we did get you free Uworld and got them to drop Combank so it evens out. You’ll thank me when you go to take boards.

                                                            lawsuit: news to me. But once I left harrogate I try to stay out of all this ******ed drama. It’s not my business now, I just want my degree and to match into a reasonably decent program.

                                                            also it helps your mental state immensely to be out of the physical building, past boards and in the clinic. I was by no means a “great” student but I’ve excelled in the clinic and it’s important to understand that your pre-clinical grades and board scores do not define you. You may find that where pre-clinical was the bane of your existence, real clinical medicine may come to you naturally.
                                                             
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                                                            isthisreality111

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                                                              You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.
                                                               

                                                              Gambino.

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                                                                You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.
                                                                I mean if you applied broadly and this was your only acceptance take the seat. Bad school is better than no school. I would've taken LMU over carib if I was given the option.
                                                                 
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                                                                premedmommyx2

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                                                                  You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.
                                                                  I don’t think knox is as bad as what I’ve seen here. But then again it’s still new. Our faculty truly helped us as much as they could and care deeply about our success. It seems like a lot of the issue comes in later years but I don’t mind the school so far. Just think they need to work on bette scheduling.
                                                                   

                                                                  FutureDoctor5000

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                                                                    You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.
                                                                    LOL... stop getting caught up in sdn talk, you can’t give up a chance of becoming a doctor cause of what you read on this site, honestly if you give up this chance, you might not get in to any school next year. It gets more and more competitive each year
                                                                     
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                                                                    futurebostondoc227

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                                                                      You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.

                                                                      Knox is absolutely fine. I had some concerns (mostly from this thread, lol) before I started at DCOM. Then I talked to some current students (not the ones who help with admissions, people I knew personally) and went with my gut. The first year, at least, was good. If you have specific questions feel free to message me.

                                                                      I also want to reiterate that we do NOT have a skeleton crew at Knox campus. The person who said that doesn’t go to Knox campus. We have faculty for every subject and they’ve hired more people throughout the year.
                                                                       
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                                                                      wannadoctoritup

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                                                                        Knox second year here. I was excited to get into the Knox campus and any worries I had were also from reading this thread. Now that first year is over I can say i have no complaints. Just don’t obsess over this thread or sdn in general. Skeleton crew thing isn’t true. Like Boston person said, whoever said that has never been to our campus. You can pm me too and I’ll answer any questions you may have. We have a great time here and we love the staff and faculty. I can’t speak on the harrogate campus though as I don’t attend there
                                                                         
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                                                                        ThrowawayDO2288

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                                                                          You guys are kinda scaring me, this was my only acceptance at the new campus. Do you guys truly believe that the school is not good? I know the rotations are bad, and the board prep is not the best, do the other campus faculty barely help the new since its a skeleton crew? But do you guys really not recommend going? I saw that a couple ppl placed derm and other specialties, but with step 1 do you think its impossible to go into derm or on the west coast with this school.

                                                                          I can almost guarantee you my class' match stats are going to be way worse. level 1 pass rates are trending downwards and the average is dropping because of the asenine scheduling, inability to keep good faculty, and unwillingness to teach to boards in second year. bottom line is, if youre coming to DCOM the motto should be "lower your expectations". Here are the facts based on last year's match/board statistics:
                                                                          • out of the 2020 starting class of 225, 192 students managed to secure a residency in the match.
                                                                          • that is an 85% match rate and does not account for additional students who dropped down from the previous year. which is around 15 students if it is similar to my class.
                                                                          • Out of those 192 students 65% matched into Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, or Pediatrics.
                                                                          • 2 people matched into derm last year, so out of the 425 students in both campuses of your prospective class you're looking at a <1% chance of matching derm if you attend DCOM.
                                                                          • 1 in 10 of your classmates that make it to dedicated will fail boards
                                                                          • 15% of your 3rd year classmates will fail the PE
                                                                          • >15% of your classmates at orientation will never make it to match day
                                                                          Now if DCOM is your only option, it is your only option. You'll be a doctor in 4 years if you can make it past step 1. At least from what ive seen with my class that is the barrier, either you fail out and are forced to withdraw/repeat a year by boards or you make it to 4th year and graduate. All i am saying is dont go in thinking youre gonna waltz your way to a 270 and a derm spot somewhere in LA because odd are, no matter how hard you try you will be slogging to match at a low tier FM/IM spot.

                                                                          And what i meant by skeleton crew is last i was told, is the knoxville campus is a skeleton crew and the faculty at the harrogate campus has to either stream lectures to the knoxville campus or commute for labs. if you think you're attending another entire medical school with a full campus then youve been mislead. Anyways, good luck. dont worry about match statistics and board score averages until you're close to those times yourself. all that stress wont matter one bit if you cant pass Anatomy or Micro in first year.
                                                                           
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                                                                          Goro

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                                                                            • Out of those 192 students 65% matched into Family Medicine, Internal Medicine, or Pediatrics.
                                                                            • 2 people matched into derm last year, so out of the 425 students in both campuses of your prospective class you're looking at a <1% chance of matching derm if you attend DCOM.


                                                                            Every one of your complaints is valid but these two. People attending a DO school had better go in eyes open that they are most likely to end up in these fields (or Psych, Path, ObGyn, Neuro, PM&R or Gas). The 60% number is common, especially with the oldest schools, who treasure the PC mission. The mission of the AOA is to train more PC docs.

                                                                            Anyone who attends a DO school expecting to go into Derm or any other uber-residency is fooling themselves. Your 1% number is no surprise.
                                                                             
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                                                                            FutureDoctor5000

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                                                                              Every one of your complaints is valid but these two. People attending a DO school had better go in eyes open that they are most likely to end up in these fields (or Psych, Path, ObGyn, Neuro, PM&R or Gas). The 60% number is common, especially with the oldest schools, who treasure the PC mission. The mission of the AOA is to train more PC docs.

                                                                              Anyone who attends a DO school expecting to go into Derm or any other uber-residency is fooling themselves. Your 1% number is no surprise.
                                                                              I would add gen surgery and rads to that list too, over 120 DO’s matched categorical gen surgery spots. Ortho has over 100 too, stuff like derm and other surgical subs are obviously hard, alumni at my school had to take research years in order to build the apps to match into them although some matched after 4 years, it can be done if you have decently high steps and the willingness to work to put together an app that’s gonna get you matched. Honestly it’s hard for MD students to match into these specialties too, sure they have better resources to get them there but MD students have to put in the work too in order to match into those hyper competitive fields. Most MD students actually match primary care and mid competitive specialties too just like DO’s. The only argument that the above poster has is that it’s easier for the MD to build an app to match derm or something hyper competitive but it’s not as impossible as he/she makes it out to be because his school and every other DO school has multiple people who match those specialties every single year.
                                                                               
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                                                                              WhereMyLiberalsAt

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                                                                                I would add gen surgery and rads to that list too, over 120 DO’s matched categorical gen surgery spots. Ortho has over 100 too, stuff like derm and other surgical subs are obviously hard, alumni at my school had to take research years in order to build the apps to match into them although some matched after 4 years, it can be done if you have decently high steps and the willingness to work to put together an app that’s gonna get you matched. Honestly it’s hard for MD students to match into these specialties too, sure they have better resources to get them there but MD students have to put in the work too in order to match into those hyper competitive fields. Most MD students actually match primary care and mid competitive specialties too just like DO’s. The only argument that the above poster has is that it’s easier for the MD to build an app to match derm or something hyper competitive but it’s not as impossible as he/she makes it out to be because his school and every other DO school has multiple people who match those specialties every single year.
                                                                                You extended their argument to “every other DO school.” The above poster is specifically talking about DCOM...

                                                                                It’s better to be a MD than a DO; full stop. Not just for “hyper competitive specialities” it’s better for all specialties. Even if a specialty is DO friendly, there are still regions and/or programs that have bias.

                                                                                There’s no reason to defend our garbage institutions’ that make our life more difficult because they lack the wherewithal to help their students in an ever increasing competitive match process.
                                                                                 
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                                                                                FutureDoctor5000

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                                                                                  You extended their argument to “every other DO school.” The above poster is specifically talking about DCOM...

                                                                                  It’s better to be a MD than a DO; full stop. Not just for “hyper competitive specialities” it’s better for all specialties. Even if a specialty is DO friendly, there are still regions and/or programs that have bias.

                                                                                  There’s no reason to defend our garbage institutions’ that make our life more difficult because they lack the wherewithal to help their students in an ever increasing competitive match process.
                                                                                  I am not denying that parts of what your saying is true, I dont go to DCOM, so idk the situation there, but based on their match list, several people had no problems matching into hyper competitive stuff like derm, IR, ortho. They did it, and so did many other people across all DO schools. Is there bias sure, there is even bias against lowest tier MD schools by some of the very top tier programs(know of this personally as I have a friend at one of those low tier MD schools), and of course we know of the Caribbean bias which is much much worse than DO bias, my point is that every year I am seeing increasingly better matches from DO schools to traditional MD programs even in the hyper competitive stuff and its not only to the former DO programs. No one is defending a "garbage institution" if that is how you truly feel about it, but I do know that for many DO students, DO schools have been able to provide a tremendous opportunity to become a doctor, or else we would all be going the Carib route tbh, and for a lot of people it does work out in the end specialty wise. The notion that you will be "clamoring" for low tier FM or IM is wrong, unless of course your a terrible student at the bottom of the class who barely passed the comlex, in that case even being an MD would probably land you in the same spot in FM or IM, MD's with 200 Step scores aren't just walking into derm or ortho spots either...
                                                                                   
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                                                                                  ThrowawayDO2288

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                                                                                    I am not denying that parts of what your saying is true, I dont go to DCOM, so idk the situation there, but based on their match list, several people had no problems matching into hyper competitive stuff like derm, IR, ortho. They did it, and so did many other people across all DO schools. Is there bias sure, there is even bias against lowest tier MD schools by some of the very top tier programs(know of this personally as I have a friend at one of those low tier MD schools), and of course we know of the Caribbean bias which is much much worse than DO bias, my point is that every year I am seeing increasingly better matches from DO schools to traditional MD programs even in the hyper competitive stuff and its not only to the former DO programs. No one is defending a "garbage institution" if that is how you truly feel about it, but I do know that for many DO students, DO schools have been able to provide a tremendous opportunity to become a doctor, or else we would all be going the Carib route tbh, and for a lot of people it does work out in the end specialty wise. The notion that you will be "clamoring" for low tier FM or IM is wrong, unless of course your a terrible student at the bottom of the class who barely passed the comlex, in that case even being an MD would probably land you in the same spot in FM or IM, MD's with 200 Step scores aren't just walking into derm or ortho spots either...
                                                                                    So a couple things, mainly your comments on DCOM students marching into competitive residencies. Sure it happens, but at a much lower proportion than say MSUCOM or an MD program. Just because we had 1 student match neurosurgery in 2016 doesn’t mean we have a stellar match list every year with tons of people going into varied competitive specialties. The reality is we have <15 people per year matching into ortho+ tier residencies Out of a class or 225 (425 now I guess).

                                                                                    if 2/3 of your students are matching into IM/FM/Peds then it is NOT a competitive match list. Period.

                                                                                    you go to DCOM odds are you’re probably going to end up doing outpatient family med or hospitalist work. That is your reality. like I said earlier, when you make the conscious decision to attend this school you need to temper your expectations. This is not a surgeon/sub specialist factory. We mass produce FM/IM docs, and that’s okay.
                                                                                     
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