Looking forward: How does this sound?--Help me evaluate this!

[ConsultantMD]

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Hey everyone, so it's been awhile since I've posted here, but I've been thinking a lot about how med school is going to fit into my future.

I've dedicated myself to work full time at a top healthcare consulting firm next year. It's a great job, a travel job, that will get me in the hospitals and other healthcare organizations, and gain a great first-hand experience.

However, I've been thinking about how/when med school will enter the picture. I knew that I wouldn't be good enough for med school right after college, my 3.4 gpa is pretty crippling (and also the fact that I hadn't even taken the MCATs). But now I'm trying to think of my approach to med school with this job.

Will what I did in college even matter anymore if I work at my job for say, 3-5 years? Will it matter that I was a varsity athlete, I took sometimes 2x the normal courseloads, that I had 2 jobs most of college, etc? I have a feeling that it won't, and the only thing that will matter is my gpa. All of these things were good enough to help me land this competitive job, but I feel like they'll be passed over when I bring them back for med school applications.

Let's say that I work for my company for 3 years. Will I have to go to an SMP program to show medical schools that I can handle the academics? Or will I have to perform really well on the MCAT? Or both? The job will definitely help gain the money that I'll need for med school (which is a huge concern).

Let me know what you all think, I'm curious to know, thanks in advance!

 

[riverjib]

Hey everyone, so it's been awhile since I've posted here, but I've been thinking a lot about how med school is going to fit into my future.

I've dedicated myself to work full time at a top healthcare consulting firm next year. It's a great job, a travel job, that will get me in the hospitals and other healthcare organizations, and gain a great first-hand experience.

However, I've been thinking about how/when med school will enter the picture. I knew that I wouldn't be good enough for med school right after college, my 3.4 gpa is pretty crippling (and also the fact that I hadn't even taken the MCATs). But now I'm trying to think of my approach to med school with this job.

Will what I did in college even matter anymore if I work at my job for say, 3-5 years? Will it matter that I was a varsity athlete, I took sometimes 2x the normal courseloads, that I had 2 jobs most of college, etc? I have a feeling that it won't, and the only thing that will matter is my gpa. All of these things were good enough to help me land this competitive job, but I feel like they'll be passed over when I bring them back for med school applications.

Let's say that I work for my company for 3 years. Will I have to go to an SMP program to show medical schools that I can handle the academics? Or will I have to perform really well on the MCAT? Or both? The job will definitely help gain the money that I'll need for med school (which is a huge concern).

Let me know what you all think, I'm curious to know, thanks in advance!

Yes, it will matter. Being a varsity athlete matters no more to ADCOMs than choosing to spend the equivalent time volunteering or participating in clubs. While it shows that you have diverse interests and are not singly devoted to academics, most serious applicants have done research and EC's while maintaining similar course loads.

Personally, I returned to school in my mid-20s, so I gave up any hope of having a life. I maintained a 3.85+ while doing research, working full-time (or as low as 25 hours a week mid-semester), and participating in a few on-campus activities. Don't do this to yourself unless you really have to do so. With a 3.4 GPA, you have a good shot at med school if your MCAT is decent. Trust me...it only gets harder with time.

If you know you're ready for medicine, go for it. Don't make excuses for the time you spent doing other things. Instead, talk about how your experience made you a better leader and team player, or a better person overall. Focus on the positive things you have learned. Next year or ten years from now, there will be plenty of people who suffered more than you and I ever did and still managed to pull off better grades with more impressive EC's. Don't let that get in your way. Try, and apply again next year if it doesn't work out this time.

If you're really determined to work for three years, do it because you really want to, and not because you're under the illusion that things will be better or significantly easier then than they are now. It only gets harder. That doesn't deter me, but I wish I had known at 21 or 25 what I know now at 30...I will be chasing the same dream regardless of my age, and the sooner I do it, the sooner I'll achieve it.

 

[NTF]

Being a varsity athlete matters no more to ADCOMs than choosing to spend the equivalent time volunteering or participating in clubs. While it shows that you have diverse interests and are not singly devoted to academics, most serious applicants have done research and EC's while maintaining similar course loads.

Actually, I disagree. Many adcoms do put a higher premium on being a varsity athlete than a lot of standard pre-med ECs. It may not be fair, but a lot of adcoms view varsity athletics as a singularly dominating EC. Maintaining a respectable GPA (and 3.4 is respectable even though it's slightly below average) while doing it is seen as strong indication of an applicant's ability to handle a significant workload and succeed in med school. If the OP was able to fit in some community service in there too then even better.
Like I said, it may not be fair (though given what I've seen of varsity athletes lives I think it is fair). And I fully get that there are non-athletic applicants who had similar dominating concerns and things to juggle.
Being an athlete won't make up for a poor GPA, but it will add a shine to a 3.4 that run-of-the-mill ECs won't.

OP, your GPA isn't bad, but schools will want to see recent coursework as evidence that you still have academic chops. You'll likely have to take a few upper level sci classes. Get A's in them and your GPA won't be anything that holds you back at most schools. I don't think an SMP is necessary unless your scGPA is horrendous. But you will need to build the rest of your app like everyone else (LOR, shadowing, volunteering, patient contact, MCAT, essays, etc)

Best luck for the future.

 

[ConsultantMD]

thanks for the replies so far. I forgot to mention that my sGPA is terrible--it's a 3.0. I took all of my science classes the first two years of college when I was trying to juggle my sport and everything, and by the time I got used to it, they were all over! If I didn't already have this job, I was going to pursue a SMP-type program, I was looking at Tufts and Georgetown mainly, but the biggest prohibitive factor was the money that I'd have to pay to get there.

Playing a sport takes up a lot of my time, we have a 20-hour per week limit from the NCAA, but that's just practice/game time, there's so much more to it. I think that it should count more than some EC's that people do as a pre-med. In the off-season, I volunteer at a hospital too and during my breaks I go on week-long service trips. I've also been on leadership boards for community service as well.

But I guess my main question is, will all of this matter if I apply say 3 years from now? Will they care that I did all of these things, or will my GPA be the only thing that I have to show for anything.

I also did research abroad in public health and I did hard science research for something that I'm getting published for as well. Currently I'm working on another public health endeavor for a senior thesis.

This job will definitely give me more experience and insight in the healthcare world, and it will get me $$ so that med school won't hurt so much (I come from a modest background, and we don't have much money to throw around, thank god for scholarships).

Thanks a lot for the responses so far, I appreciate it

 

[NTF]

my sGPA is terrible--it's a 3.0.

Ok, well THAT, being a varsity athlete won't get you any slack for. First off, I'd try to get away from the WHY of your poor scGPA. Concentrate on the BUT statement that comes after it. As in "but this is how I turned it around etc etc and proved I can excel academically."

Because in the end I'll bet adcoms are much less concerned with the why of the past than the how of the turnaround. If it happened, it happened and I'm sure adcoms have heard every scenario (family crisis, invalid parents, personal tragedy, I had to work 4 jobs while going to school fulltime, etc etc.) So just make sure you build the resume that tells them that yes, this guy can make it through M1, M2, and step 1 because ultimately that's what GPAs and MCAT scores are (statistically) indicators for.

So do an informal post-bacc. Take as many upper level sci as you can. Build a long string of A's that will leave no doubt that you can survive a med school curriculum. I had a pretty choppy transcript, but finished strong with an informal post-bacc. I had 7 interviews and not once was my academic record questioned and my early years were littered with W's, Cs, and a few F's.

Best of luck.

 

[MiniMoo]

But I guess my main question is, will all of this matter if I apply say 3 years from now? Will they care that I did all of these things, or will my GPA be the only thing that I have to show for anything.

This seems to be the dominating question, so I'll go ahead and address this. GPA matters, period. Working for 3 years, getting more healthcare exposure, and accumulating more real life experience will add to your resume, but it will NOT make up for a poor GPA. At the end of it all, you will still need to take additional science post-bacc classes to help bolster your numbers in addition to scoring well on the MCAT. I'm not saying you shouldn't work. If it's something you really want to do, by all means, do it. But realize you may have to take additional time off or somehow accommodate taking classes while working in order to strengthen your academic credentials. Also, schools like to see current
classwork as well. Not undergoing any schooling for several years prior to applying to medical school is generally not favored.

 

[ConsultantMD]

understood, this is what I figured would have to happen! So you're suggesting just an informal post-bacc instead of a SMP kinda program then?

I don't think me being out of school for an extended period of time will be a huge issue. I've always taken an extra class or two (up to 4) more than normal so I'm used to heavy loads of work. These certainly aren't overloads in science classes, definitely learned my lesson when I tried to take 3 at once, it was a horrible semester. I would hope that coming from a top 20 school and graduating with twice the number of credits and above student average-gpa would be an indicator that I can handle it also.

I really love the company I'm going to be working for and I think the perspective and experience I'll get will be extremely helpful, and who knows maybe it will lead me somewhere else.

Thanks a lot for the replies,

 

[MiniMoo]

understood, this is what I figured would have to happen! So you're suggesting just an informal post-bacc instead of a SMP kinda program then?

Yep an informal post-bacc. No SMP needed.

 

[ConsultantMD]

good that sounds like the cheaper option then! thanks a ton

 

[LiveNow]

understood, this is what I figured would have to happen! So you're suggesting just an informal post-bacc instead of a SMP kinda program then?

I was in the same boat...long story short I wanted to graduate with B.S. ASAP to get significant clinical experience using my degree...unfortunately my GPA suffered, however I assumed that since working directly with patients (cardiac rehab) for more than 3 years in a well known hospital would make it easier to get in. NOT the case..I was asked to do more post-bac work in order to raise my gpa. So yes GPA does matter!
Although all of your clinical experience will give you a leg up and most importantly you'll figure out if this is what you really want....
To determine post-bacc vs. SMP...personally I did post-bac because I loved my undergrad university, my living arrangements were great and I did not want to move. It is your call...many SMP's give guaranteed interviews or even acceptances if you keep your GPA in good standing...
Hope this helped...good luck!🙂

 

[MiniMoo]

good that sounds like the cheaper option then! thanks a ton

Sorry, I only just noticed that your sGPA is actually a 3.0. In that case, an informal post-bacc may take longer. It can often be difficult to find space in university classes when not enrolled as a formal student. But if you can afford to devote the time necessary to get a long string of As in science classes and drag that 3.0 up to perhaps a ~3.3, then taking classes on your own will likely be cheaper. Just have to make the choice that works best for your time table, budget, class availability, etc.

Also keep in mind that SMP programs can be very high risk in addition to high cost. From my understanding, they are usually used as a last resort because if you screw up, your chances at med school are significantly negatively affected. Everyone in an SMP is determined to succeed and desperate to do well. So the entire environment is extremely high pressure and competitive.

 

[ConsultantMD]

Thanks for sharing your experience! I mean I'd assume this would definitely add to the whole package, but I knew that the gpa would be an eye-sore. that said, I'd have to do really well on the mcat in tandem with taking some more classes.

I think an SMP is kind of what I'm looking for (it was what I was considering prior to accepting this job). I do well under high-pressure, high-stress situations, especially if that will be my one and only priority not having to worry about my sport, work, etc.

I guess I'll have to see where the wind blows on this, but I just got side-tracked into thinking that maybe I'm not making the right choice by going to work.

Thanks!

 

[ConsultantMD]

Do you guys think that it would be weird to start taking Harvard Extension School classes online while working full time? I think that I could handle it working full time and taking a class, or two or whatever.

The classes are really cheap, and they look interesting. The good thing is, I didn't really take any bio classes in college, so I wouldn't be double counting them.

Do med schools look down on online courses? Does anyone know? For Harvard in particular?

 

[MiniMoo]

Online classes are okay if it's a couple of non pre-req type courses, but should not be used to fulfill your science prerequisites. Some schools won't accept them, and I think there's a widely held belief that online courses are not as rigorous/challenging. Additionally, you're going to need to fulfill a biology lab requirement, which an online class won't be able to provide.

 

[MacVA]

OP,

My suggestion would be to work for a couple of months before undertaking any further schooling. You need to get a feel for the job to see if you would be able to work and go to school at the same time. My younger brother is in health care consulting and he works a minimum of 60 hours per work since he travels 50% of the time and has unusual work hours there would be no way for him to take classes at the same time.

Another point - How many science/math hours do you have right now? You stated earlier that you graduated with the double the usual credit hours from a university. If you have roughly 256 hours and say 100 hours of that are in math/science classes, it may take you a long time to raise that 3.0 GPA.

Good luck with your consulting gig! 🙂

 

[ConsultantMD]

Yes, I would probably take classes Fall 2010, I start work in July so there'd be time for me to get settled in and everything.

I only have the pre-reqs completed, nothing else, so yes it will take a long time, but I'm willing to do it step by step especially if I can do it while working.

My job will be similar, travel 50-75% of the time, but I'm used to really busy schedules and I would definitely give it the care and attention because I would be paying for it!

I wouldn't take the pre-reqs online, at Harvard they have a bunch of online biology courses that look interesting, who knows maybe I could get a degree at the end of it!

 

[ConsultantMD]

So here's a blast from the past--3 years later! Here I am again....

What's happened since then:
* I gained a patent for my senior year research which was published. About 30-40% of the data used in the patent was directly from my paper, which is very exciting!
*I've been working in health care consulting and have visited almost 100 different hospitals across the country, spending around 1500-1750 hours shadowing clinicians on top of my normal work week
*I've totally erased all my student debt and have started to save for my next step!
*My first year of employment, I worked another part time job in the professional sports industry

Through this experience, I've learned that I really do want to be a physician, and while I've learned the ins and outs of their workflows, I'm ready to be the do-er and not the consultant. Through my almost 3 years, I've really understood how a hospital/clinic works in its entirety, and all the people and things involved in making it work every day. As well, I've seen the struggles clinicians deal with every day that happen outside of the practice of medicine, so I feel like I've gained a more mature view of what being a doctor is about.

My current plans are to start studying for the MCAT this summer and take advanced biology classes in the fall term to boost my GPA (avoid an SMP). Meanwhile, I plan to work somewhere within the hospital to continue to gain clinical experience and understanding. I'll apply the summer of 2014. Should I go back to doing more research? I figure that I have a patent and publication, so that's good enough for me, I should try something else to expand my clinical exposure.

Pending a good MCAT score, I plan to apply to plenty of MD schools, as well as some SMP programs as a fail-safe since if my GPA is truly the hindrance, then I'd like to start working on that ASAP.

Does anyone have any insights on this plan, or any advice to offer? I'd greatly appreciate it!

 

[Goro]

No amount of time away and ECs will make a 3.4 more attractive to an MD AdCom. You're fine for DO programs, whoever.


Will what I did in college even matter anymore if I work at my job for say, 3-5 years?


GPA comes first because the schools get 1000s of applications. they simply don't have time to go through each one to look for compelling stories. You might have some luck at the lowest of the low-tier MD programs like Rosy Franklin or NYMC, but you'd better have a stellar MCAT. The avg MD matriculant has a 3.6 cGPA

Will it matter that I was a varsity athlete, I took sometimes 2x the normal courseloads, that I had 2 jobs most of college, etc? I have a feeling that it won't, and the only thing that will matter is my gpa. All of these things were good enough to help me land this competitive job, but I feel like they'll be passed over when I bring them back for med school applications.


If you're committed to an MD program, then yes, I'd say go the SMP route but AFTER you take one crack at an application cycle.Depending upon where you live, you might get some love from your state MD school, but again, you need a 33+ MCAT. Otherwise, take the MCAT, shoot for high 20s, and then apply DO.

Oh, don't forget all the necessary ECs like shadowing, etc. That company work isn't going to be enough.

Let's say that I work for my company for 3 years. Will I have to go to an SMP program to show medical schools that I can handle the academics? Or will I have to perform really well on the MCAT? Or both?

 

[Weewee]

I love updates! I honestly think with a solid mcat you will be fine for MD because your story is unique. Best of luck!!

Goro....usually I agree with you but I'm starting to think you're only here to promote DO school. I feel like even acceptable applicants (maybe on the low end stats wise) are automatically told no way...but for sure DO!

 

[ConsultantMD]

Thanks for the advice Goro! I know it doesn't make the 3.4 gpa better, but I've definitely gained a wealth of unique experiences coming from my work that give me a different perspective than what I thought I knew 3 years ago.

I definitely will be shadowing in my time off. What are people's thoughts on getting a job doing public health work? I'd be able to balance a night class or two and working day I think.

I would be aiming for a score in the 35+ range, which I know will be difficult. I'm well out of the game now in terms of core knowledge, so I'll need months to play catch up, but in the past with standardized tests, I've been able to achieve my goals, although I know this is a different animal.

I'm not really looking for as prestigious of a school as my undergrad, I'm just looking to become an MD at a school that makes sense for me. It's easy to get caught up in the prestige game, which I did for undergrad, but now, thinking about my family and where I want to end up in life, I'd be fine with something that's not topping the charts.

In terms of trying for the SMP while attempting my first shot at med school, I think that would work out well since the SMP I'd be interested requires the MCAT anyway. I'd be willing to do this (despite the ridiculous cost).

I know it's not right to go in with an exact specialty in mind, but I've worked specifically in Emergency Medicine over the past several years, which was convenient because even before then ER medicine interested me. The lifestyle and personality fit me well, and I know what the common concerns are of the ED physicians in terms of feeling like substitutions for primary care or at the mercy of specific legalities that make them do various CYA procedures. Do you think working as as scribe would be a good compliment to this? Granted, you make less than 10 dollars an hour, you don't really do it for the money I guess.

 

[ConsultantMD]

I love updates! I honestly think with a solid mcat you will be fine for MD because your story is unique. Best of luck!!

Goro....usually I agree with you but I'm starting to think you're only here to promote DO school. I feel like even acceptable applicants (maybe on the low end stats wise) are automatically told no way...but for sure DO!

Hey, I'm hoping the same thing! I do realize there is a numbers game and at some schools I will fail the quick check test, understandably since they get so many applications!

I have worked with several DOs, including medical directors who are DOs, and I haven't noticed anything in particular as to why their 'standards' are lower. I guess I haven't really been able to parse that out through my work, so I mean that's something else I could look into as well, getting a DO. Lots to think about!

 

[hopeful22213]

Sometimes I feel like a broken record by always posting this but I think some honest-to-goodness stats might help out a bit:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf

That's the table of admissions stats for applicants broken down by gpa and mcat ranges. I put up the chart for white applicants but info for other cohorts is also readily available.

With a 3.4 (and obviously getting that higher will always help) you can see that a strong mcat could put you in a cohort of applicants with a ~50% or higher chance of gaining an MD acceptance. With tons of clinical shadowing, research and a patent and varsity sports, I think a good mcat score will make you a reasonably competitive candidate for admission so long as you apply broadly and remain realistic about your chances.

I don't understand why someone would say that with a 3.4 you stand no chance as the actual facts clearly suggest otherwise. A former classmate of mine (and also a former varsity athlete) currently holds 4 acceptances, including 2 Ivys, another very prestigious private school and his state school. His gpa? <3.5

D.O. is certainly worth considering but please don't write off MD just because posters here (erroneously) claim you stand no chance. SDN can sometimes be a bit of a shark tank but there are also a lot of encouraging and informed posters, especially around this forum. Best of luck OP.

Sorry for any typos. I suck at typing on tablets.

 

[ConsultantMD]

Sometimes I feel like a broken record by always posting this but I think some honest-to-goodness stats might help out a bit:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf

That's the table of admissions stats for applicants broken down by gpa and mcat ranges. I put up the chart for white applicants but info for other cohorts is also readily available.

With a 3.4 (and obviously getting that higher will always help) you can see that a strong mcat could put you in a cohort of applicants with a ~50% or higher chance of gaining an MD acceptance. With tons of clinical shadowing, research and a patent and varsity sports, I think a good mcat score will make you a reasonably competitive candidate for admission so long as you apply broadly and remain realistic about your chances.

I don't understand why someone would say that with a 3.4 you stand no chance as the actual facts clearly suggest otherwise. A former classmate of mine (and also a former varsity athlete) currently holds 4 acceptances, including 2 Ivys, another very prestigious private school and his state school. His gpa? <3.5

D.O. is certainly worth considering but please don't write off MD just because posters here (erroneously) claim you stand no chance. SDN can sometimes be a bit of a shark tank but there are also a lot of encouraging and informed posters, especially around this forum. Best of luck OP.

Sorry for any typos. I suck at typing on tablets.

Thanks!

Yes, I'm thinking that taking something like an advanced biology course this fall at the state university will be a good choice for me while balancing a low-key clinical job. I like those odds! Any other insight or things I can be doing outside of this will be helpful. I think my key to success will be trying to not dip into my savings thus far, as tempting as it will be.

 

[ConsultantMD]

Would it be worth it for me to take the upper-level biology classes that I didn't take in undergrad? Hopefully I can ace them with more focus, and it'll help get me back in the school mode in order to prep for the MCAT. In-state non-campus tuition is only 300$ a credit, so I feel like I should take advantage, or should I just focus on the MCAT and save the money?

It really won't change the fact the GPA though, since my GPA is so weighted at a 3.4 because of all the credits I have, so maybe it just makes sense to just focus on the MCAT instead?

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Sometimes I feel like a broken record by always posting this but I think some honest-to-goodness stats might help out a bit:

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/2012factstable25-4.pdf

That's the table of admissions stats for applicants broken down by gpa and mcat ranges. I put up the chart for white applicants but info for other cohorts is also readily available.

With a 3.4 (and obviously getting that higher will always help) you can see that a strong mcat could put you in a cohort of applicants with a ~50% or higher chance of gaining an MD acceptance. With tons of clinical shadowing, research and a patent and varsity sports, I think a good mcat score will make you a reasonably competitive candidate for admission so long as you apply broadly and remain realistic about your chances.

I don't understand why someone would say that with a 3.4 you stand no chance as the actual facts clearly suggest otherwise. A former classmate of mine (and also a former varsity athlete) currently holds 4 acceptances, including 2 Ivys, another very prestigious private school and his state school. His gpa? <3.5

D.O. is certainly worth considering but please don't write off MD just because posters here (erroneously) claim you stand no chance. SDN can sometimes be a bit of a shark tank but there are also a lot of encouraging and informed posters, especially around this forum. Best of luck OP.

Sorry for any typos. I suck at typing on tablets.

With a 3.4, it looks to me like the OP would need 34-35 on MCAT to have even odds at getting an acceptance to ANY MD program, based on what you posted. 34-35 is a pretty great score and far above the mean for MD applicants, so obviously not easy to achieve. That 3.4 will get auto-screened by a great many programs. I don't think that Goro was trying to say that the OP has no chance, but without a great MCAT score the chances aren't great. Can't we all agree to that? OP should maximize MCAT score, then apply broadly to MD and DO programs at all tiers and hope for the best. Nothing pie in sky, or too pessimistic, about that plan.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

Would it be worth it for me to take the upper-level biology classes that I didn't take in undergrad? Hopefully I can ace them with more focus, and it'll help get me back in the school mode in order to prep for the MCAT. In-state non-campus tuition is only 300$ a credit, so I feel like I should take advantage, or should I just focus on the MCAT and save the money?

Take the classes. It will have a small, positive effect on your cGPA and sGPA, but more importantly it will show (if you keep an upward trend) that you are still competitive in the classroom and will be able to keep up with your classmates whom have known nothing but the classroom till now.

 

[ConsultantMD]

Yes, and also I need them for some schools that I want to apply to, I never did the basic biochem/anatomy classes, so I definitely want to take those. Silly question!

 

[ConsultantMD]

Going back to the beginning... this is the full circle thread here!

So a year has passed, and I have accumulated 35 credits (all science) of a DIY post bacc with a 3.9 and a 35 on the MCAT. I'm ready to apply to schools now! Thanks for everyone's feedback on this plan, especially @Goro and @Pons Asinorum.

I'm hoping to spend this weekend whittling my list down to 20 or so across the board. Any other insight will be appreciated!

 

[Goro]

There are plenty of schools for which you'll be highly competitive. Start with Case and Tufts. My school will take you in a heartbeat.

Going back to the beginning... this is the full circle thread here!

So a year has passed, and I have accumulated 35 credits (all science) of a DIY post bacc with a 3.9 and a 35 on the MCAT. I'm ready to apply to schools now! Thanks for everyone's feedback on this plan, especially @Goro and @Pons Asinorum.

I'm hoping to spend this weekend whittling my list down to 20 or so across the board. Any other insight will be appreciated!

 

[ConsultantMD]

Thanks for the tips! I'm hoping to get some love from my state school because it's a great school. But I'm also looking a little more towards the top-I figure why not? I have my list down to 28 and I'm looking hard at research and global health experience since those are important to me.