M.D.s and D.O.s Moving toward a Single, Unified Accreditation System for GME

[Ost3oclast]

This is incredible news. So DO will be able to practice anywhere since there will only be one residency?

Anywhere as in worldwide? DO students can already practice any specialty in any state. Not sure if the merger will change anything in terms of foreign rights though.

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[pre med 2014]

Anywhere as in worldwide? DO students can already practice any specialty in any state. Not sure if the merger will change anything in terms of foreign rights though.

Nevermind. It was kinda a dumb question, I think DO will still not be recognized internationally. Cause it's your degree, not residency that determines if you can get employment in another country... I think

 

[SpecterGT260]

Anywhere as in worldwide? DO students can already practice any specialty in any state. Not sure if the merger will change anything in terms of foreign rights though.

unlikely.... Most of the foreign stipulations I have seen talk about the school and not the residency.

Not all US MD schools are even recognized worldwide.

 

[Ost3oclast]

unlikely.... Most of the foreign stipulations I have seen talk about the school and not the residency.

Not all US MD schools are even recognized worldwide.

Yep. I think so too.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Nevermind. It was kinda a dumb question, I think DO will still not be recognized internationally. Cause it's your degree, not residency that determines if you can get employment in another country... I think

You might have had some thoughts, but they don't reflect the reality, at all.

I don't know if you're dumb but this post seems like was done intentionally (one of the many Caribbean med school representatives on SDN, etc.?!.)

First, read the list of countries about international recognition of the DO degree from this link.

The Bureau on International Osteopathic Medical Education and Affairs (BIOMEA) is an independent board of the American Osteopathic Association. The BIOMEA monitors the licensing and registration practices of physicians in countries outside of the United States and advances the recognition of American-trained DOs. Towards this end, the BIOMEA works with international health organizations like the World Health Organization (WHO), the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) as well as other groups.

Second, DO degree is one of the two complete physician degrees alongside with the MD degree, which has been legally and fully recognized everywhere in the US. It's also an implicitly indication about that the physician holding the DO degree has been fully trained in the US only but nowhere else (whereas the MD degree's been given to 320,000 Caribbean or foreign med school graduates by ECFMG since 1956.)

Third, this is from MedlinePlus, a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health:

Like allopathic physicians (or M.D.s), osteopathic physicians complete 4 years of medical school and can choose to practice in any specialty of medicine. However, osteopathic physicians receive an additional 300 - 500 hours in the study of hands-on manual medicine and the body's musculoskeletal system.

Like M.D.s, osteopathic physicians are licensed at the state level. Osteopathic physicians who wish to specialize may become "board certified" (in much the same manner as M.D.s) by completing a 2- to 6-year residency within the specialty area and passing the board certification exams.

D.O.s practice in all specialties of medicine, ranging from emergency medicine and cardiovascular surgery to psychiatry and geriatrics. A majority of osteopathic doctors use many of the medical and surgical treatments that are used by other medical doctors.

​

I hope this helps.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You might have had some thoughts, but they don't reflect the reality, at all.

I don't know if you're dumb but this post seems like was done intentionally (one of the many Caribbean med school representatives on SDN, etc.?!.)

First, read the list of countries about international recognition of the DO degree from this link.

The Bureau on International Osteopathic Medical Education and Affairs (BIOMEA) is an independent board of the American Osteopathic Association. The BIOMEA monitors the licensing and registration practices of physicians in countries outside of the United States and advances the recognition of American-trained DOs. Towards this end, the BIOMEA works with international health organizations like the World Health Organization (WHO), the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) as well as other groups.

Second, DO degree is one of the two complete physician degrees alongside with the MD degree, which has been legally and fully recognized everywhere in the US. It's also an implicitly indication about that the physician holding the DO degree has been fully trained in the US only but nowhere else (whereas the MD degree's been given to 320,000 Caribbean or foreign med school graduates by ECFMG since 1956.)

Third, this is from MedlinePlus, a service of the U.S. National Library of Medicine, National Institutes of Health:

Like allopathic physicians (or M.D.s), osteopathic physicians complete 4 years of medical school and can choose to practice in any specialty of medicine. However, osteopathic physicians receive an additional 300 - 500 hours in the study of hands-on manual medicine and the body's musculoskeletal system.

Like M.D.s, osteopathic physicians are licensed at the state level. Osteopathic physicians who wish to specialize may become "board certified" (in much the same manner as M.D.s) by completing a 2- to 6-year residency within the specialty area and passing the board certification exams.

D.O.s practice in all specialties of medicine, ranging from emergency medicine and cardiovascular surgery to psychiatry and geriatrics. A majority of osteopathic doctors use many of the medical and surgical treatments that are used by other medical doctors.

​

I hope this helps.

I agree with your overall sentiment... but you are aware that DO is largely a US/canada phenomenon, right? Out side of the US there are only a handful of full practice countries, and many more that restrict to OMM-only.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I agree with your overall sentiment... but you are aware that DO is largely a US/canada phenomenon, right? Out side of the US there are only a handful of full practice countries, and many more that restrict to OMM-only.

A bit more than a handful...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I agree with your overall sentiment... but you are aware that DO is largely a US/canada phenomenon, right? Out side of the US there are only a handful of full practice countries, and many more that restrict to OMM-only.

You must have really big hands then.

 

[NeuroLAX]

I agree with your overall sentiment... but you are aware that DO is largely a US/canada phenomenon, right? Out side of the US there are only a handful of full practice countries, and many more that restrict to OMM-only.

I see what you're trying to say about the US/Canada DO phenomenon, because the US DO schools are the ones that teach and train us to become full-fledged physicians with all rights and privileges. There are about 50 or so countries that grant US-trained DOs full practice rights. DOs trained in other countries are more restricted.

 

[SpecterGT260]

A bit more than a handful...

You must have really big hands then.

I see what you're trying to say about the US/Canada DO phenomenon, because the US DO schools are the ones that teach and train us to become full-fledged physicians with all rights and privileges. There are about 50 or so countries that grant US-trained DOs full practice rights. DOs trained in other countries are more restricted.

50 countries isn't as impressive as it sounds. If you look at a map on the subject europe is just about split with several prominent countries (Notably spain, and france) having severely restricted policies on the subject.

I am going to stand by my statement with the addendum of the word "relatively" somewhere abouts the "US/Canada phenomenon" part

 

[NeuroLAX]

50 countries isn't as impressive as it sounds. If you look at a map on the subject europe is just about split with several prominent countries (Notably spain, and france) having severely restricted policies on the subject.

I am going to stand by my statement with the addendum of the word "relatively" somewhere abouts the "US/Canada phenomenon" part

Fair enough. I will practice only in the US anyway.

 

[NontradCA]

Fair enough. I will practice only in the US anyway.

You should've went Caribbean just in case you had the sudden urge to abandon your life and practice medicine in a foreign land. Now you're gonna be stuck with that ****ty degree.

 

[NeuroLAX]

You should've went Caribbean just in case you had the sudden urge to abandon your life and practice medicine in a foreign land. Now you're gonna be stuck with that ****ty degree.

Damn it. What in the world was I thinking?

But seriously, I worked with a guy who had no intention of practicing in the US so he went Caribbean. It happens.

 

[NontradCA]

Damn it. What in the world was I thinking?

But seriously, I worked with a guy who had no intention of practicing in the US so he went Caribbean. It happens.

In any situation isn't it just best to go to Medical School where you intend to practice?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Fair enough. I will practice only in the US anyway.

Yeah the "international recognition" argument is kind of a dumb one anyways. The only people who may care are those who plan to do something like doctors without borders. I may look into doing foreign work some day with a charity, but no way in hell am I planning on actually practicing permanently anywhere other than 'Murika!

 

[MedPR]

Yeah the "international recognition" argument is kind of a dumb one anyways. The only people who may care are those who plan to do something like doctors without borders. I may look into doing foreign work some day with a charity, but no way in hell am I planning on actually practicing permanently anywhere other than 'Murika!

'Murika? Is that in the Caribbean?

 

[SpecterGT260]

They wish

 

[NeuroLAX]

Yeah the "international recognition" argument is kind of a dumb one anyways. The only people who may care are those who plan to do something like doctors without borders. I may look into doing foreign work some day with a charity, but no way in hell am I planning on actually practicing permanently anywhere other than 'Murika!

On one hand, because I personally don't want to practice anywhere but the US it doesn't matter to me that I can't practice in most countries. On the other hand, I understand why the AOA is relentlessly campaigning for other countries to accept US DO education. Just because I don't want to practice outside of the US doesn't mean that it isn't important to some of my future colleagues.

 

[oms2]

md or do, it's not like you can just show up with a diploma and practice. every country protects its own medical profession with formidable barriers to entry.
try getting a medical license in france as an american md, or a california license as a french md, without prior in-country education and training.
details vary all over. singapore recognizes only certain top us md schools i.e. md degrees from u of maryland/u of texas houston/uc irvine/etc are not recognized.
outside of academics on charity missions, how many us md's are practicing medicine in a foreign country and getting a us-level salary? a handful?

 

[DrBumblebee]

md or do, it's not like you can just show up with a diploma and practice. every country protects its own medical profession with formidable barriers to entry.
try getting a medical license in france as an american md, or a california license as a french md, without prior in-country education and training.
details vary all over. singapore recognizes only certain top us md schools i.e. md degrees from u of maryland/u of texas houston/uc irvine/etc are not recognized.
outside of academics on charity missions, how many us md's are practicing medicine in a foreign country and getting a us-level salary? a handful?

Great post.

 

[Mosonik]

md or do, it's not like you can just show up with a diploma and practice. every country protects its own medical profession with formidable barriers to entry.
try getting a medical license in france as an american md, or a california license as a french md, without prior in-country education and training.
details vary all over. singapore recognizes only certain top us md schools i.e. md degrees from u of maryland/u of texas houston/uc irvine/etc are not recognized.
outside of academics on charity missions, how many us md's are practicing medicine in a foreign country and getting a us-level salary? a handful?

Right on.

I dont know where my fellow pre-meds get the notion on international practice rights that US trained MDs have some sort of all inclusive practice rights. I would say only a handful of countries that actually exclude US trained DOs and not MDs do so because of complicated histories of how osteopathic physicians are trained. Most countries that exclude DOs do so for the same reason the exclude MDs... because they are foreign doctors, period.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Right on.

I dont know where my fellow pre-meds get the notion on international practice rights that US trained MDs have some sort of all inclusive practice rights. I would say only a handful of countries that actually exclude US trained DOs and not MDs do so because of complicated histories of how osteopathic physicians are trained. Most countries that exclude DOs do so for the same reason the exclude MDs... because they are foreign doctors, period.

You didnt look into the links I gave. There is also a table defining recognition of the degree in general. It isnt as if there are practice rights for US MDs all over. You will likely get treated like FMGs do here unless you go 3rd world - but there are still avenues for licensure. However many DOs simply will not be eligible regardless.

 

[NontradCA]

You didnt look into the links I gave. There is also a table defining recognition of the degree in general. It isnt as if there are practice rights for US MDs all over. You will likely get treated like FMGs do here unless you go 3rd world - but there are still avenues for licensure. However many DOs simply will not be eligible regardless.

Many Pediatricians simply won't be applying surgical intervention to glibolastoma multiforme, what's your point? If it's that the MD is more recognizable than the DO degree in other countries? Sure, everyone here recognizes that. You yourself said it's a non-issue, it just seems there's no need for you to reiterate it again.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Many Pediatricians simply won't be applying surgical intervention to glibolastoma multiforme, what's your point?

that "there are only a handful that recognize MD but not DO" is not an accurate statement.

I thought that was clear. What isn't clear is why your over-extended and otherwise completely irrelevant counter was made in the first place. I mentioned earlier that most docs of any type wont be practicing overseas anyways, however that does not change the reality that DO is recognized in only slightly over 1/4 of the worlds countries and many of them restrict to manipulations only. Being of minimal impact to the average Dr. Joe does not mean inaccuracies suddenly become true

 

[NontradCA]

that "there are only a handful that recognize MD but not DO" is not an accurate statement.

I thought that was clear. What isn't clear is why your over-extended and otherwise completely irrelevant counter was made in the first place. I mentioned earlier that most docs of any type wont be practicing overseas anyways, however that does not change the reality that DO is recognized in only slightly over 1/4 of the worlds countries and many of them restrict to manipulations only. Being of minimal impact to the average Dr. Joe does not mean inaccuracies suddenly become true

The link you gave says most major countries in the world. That means more than a majority. Would the leftovers not be considered a handful? If we're looking at the map in proportions of area of land and population of the world the DO can practice in, the super majority is applicable. What's a handful? Arguing something is arbitrary by throwing out arbitrary links. Makes a good point.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The link you gave says most major countries in the world. That means more than a majority. Would the leftovers not be considered a handful? If we're looking at the map in proportions of area of land and population of the world the DO can practice in, the super majority is applicable. What's a handful? Arguing something is arbitrary by throwing out arbitrary links. Makes a good point.

Ok, I didnt want to get into it on this subject, but you are being intentionally dense.

No. So you are going to just swallow the text there and not look at the map at all DO you have any idea what rhetoric is and how it is used to dupe people?

There are 196 countries in the world. 50 acknowledge DO. Of the ones listed with no restriction, the majority are actually pretty minor countries (unless you just think bahrain is a superpower ). According to the map provided by the AOA themselves, DO isnt even recognized in >50 of EUROPE! Interesting definition of "most" you have there.

I mean come on..... Look at it. UK, Germany, Italy, Greece, Austria, and Sweeden, Finland. That's it in Europe. Restricted in France and Norway, unrecognized in poland, Czech, Switzerland, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark, and the 10-20 some odd countries between Russia and the mediteranian. Moving on to other areas, You have Russia and China, but India, Australia, all of the middle east except Saudi Arabia, and the majority of south asia have zero practice rights for DOs. DOs are also masseuses in Japan.

In contrast virtually no countries do not recognize US MD degrees. The avenues to practice are not necessarily easy, but they exist.... which cannot be said for DO degree holders.

This also does not address your attempted retort concerning peds and brain tumors.

But honestly.... I can't really get over the fact that there are still people who refuse to look objectively at the data presented and instead just read the headline and first line as if that is in any way meaningful. Why don't you go give a few seminars based on abstracts you have read

 

[NontradCA]

Ok, I didnt want to get into it on this subject, but you are being intentionally dense.

No. So you are going to just swallow the text there and not look at the map at all DO you have any idea what rhetoric is and how it is used to dupe people?

There are 196 countries in the world. 50 acknowledge DO. Of the ones listed with no restriction, the majority are actually pretty minor countries (unless you just think bahrain is a superpower ). According to the map provided by the AOA themselves, DO isnt even recognized in >50 of EUROPE! Interesting definition of "most" you have there.

I mean come on..... Look at it. UK, Germany, Italy, Greece, Austria, and Sweeden, Finland. That's it in Europe. Restricted in France and Norway, unrecognized in poland, Czech, Switzerland, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, Denmark, and the 10-20 some odd countries between Russia and the mediteranian. Moving on to other areas, You have Russia and China, but India, Australia, all of the middle east except Saudi Arabia, and the majority of south asia have zero practice rights for DOs. DOs are also masseuses in Japan.

In contrast virtually no countries do not recognize US MD degrees. The avenues to practice are not necessarily easy, but they exist.... which cannot be said for DO degree holders.

This also does not address your attempted retort concerning peds and brain tumors.

But honestly.... I can't really get over the fact that there are still people who refuse to look objectively at the data presented and instead just read the headline and first line as if that is in any way meaningful. Why don't you go give a few seminars based on abstracts you have read

I don't know how long it took you to wrote that. But it took me 2 seconds to write n=196 on my hand and it was less an a handful. Good day sir.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't know how long it took you to wrote that. But it took me 2 seconds to write n=196 on my hand and it was less an a handful. Good day sir.

It took just long enough to leave you with nothing valid to say in response. IMO well wroth it.

 

[NontradCA]

It took just long enough to leave you with nothing valid to say in response. IMO well wroth it.

I already pointed out the land mass and population proportions of countries which you seemingly ignored and reiterated your point of numerical value once again. Thus n=196 in palm of my hand.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I already pointed out the land mass and population proportions of countries which you seemingly ignored and reiterated your point of numerical value once again. Thus n=196 in palm of my hand.

No you didnt You just regurgitated the first line of the map link as if it means something. Land mass means absolutely nothing. Russia+canada already = most of the worlds landmass. China? They will literally let anyone be a doctor.... In that country medical school is what you do if you don't even get into college . It is not our system. I wouldn't be to quick to claim that. Europe is the only valid comparison and in Europe you have neither landmass nor population on your side.

Again, it is a moot point for most people. But also, again, that doesn't excuse inaccuracy or intentional denseness on the subject. The "handfull" that recognizes MD and does not recognize DO is considerably larger than the "handful" that recognize both with or without respect to full practice for DO. That is where the facts lay. So provide a valid response such as "well I dont give 2 craps", but this from-the-hip speculation of "well seems to me that it isnt a big difference" means that not only have you not looked at the information, you are also incapable of accurately interpreting it.

 

[NontradCA]

No you didnt You just regurgitated the first line of the map link as if it means something. Land mass means absolutely nothing. Russia+canada already = most of the worlds landmass. China? They will literally let anyone be a doctor.... In that country medical school is what you do if you don't even get into college . It is not our system. I wouldn't be to quick to claim that. Europe is the only valid comparison and in Europe you have neither landmass nor population on your side.

Again, it is a moot point for most people. But also, again, that doesn't excuse inaccuracy or intentional denseness on the subject. The "handfull" that recognizes MD and does not recognize DO is considerably larger than the "handful" that recognize both with or without respect to full practice for DO. That is where the facts lay. So provide a valid response such as "well I dont give 2 craps", but this from-the-hip speculation of "well seems to me that it isnt a big difference" means that not only have you not looked at the information, you are also incapable of accurately interpreting it.

There's a difference between accurately interpreting it and selectively reiterating meaningless points to help your anti-DO agenda. I've already made my point, obviously you won't agree because you're biased, but anyone who will come along will compare our posts and be truly objective.

 

[SpecterGT260]

There's a difference between accurately interpreting it and selectively reiterating meaningless points to help your anti-DO agenda.

there is also something to be said for reading comprehension.

I am not anti DO. I'm also not responsible for your inferiority complex that prohibits you from interpreting an anti-BS statement as anything other than anti-DO

I would like you to go back and look for anything I have said that is anti-DO. Stating that the stats are lower, matching is harder, or that other countries are less likely to recognize is not anti-DO. It is an accurate reflection of the state of things. It doesnt imply in the slightest that DOs are inferior physicians or that they shouldn't exist. That you and those like you always interpret these statement as such is incredibly telling. Go take your insecurity elsewhere and let the grownups discuss facts please. I don't have time for this anymore

 

[NontradCA]

there is also something to be said for reading comprehension.

I am not anti DO. I'm also not responsible for your inferiority complex that prohibits you from interpreting an anti-BS statement as anything other than anti-DO

I would like you to go back and look for anything I have said that is anti-DO. Stating that the stats are lower, matching is harder, or that other countries are less likely to recognize is not anti-DO. It is an accurate reflection of the state of things. It doesnt imply in the slightest that DOs are inferior physicians or that they shouldn't exist. That you and those like you always interpret these statement as such is incredibly telling. Go take your insecurity elsewhere and let the grownups discuss facts please. I don't have time for this anymore

I think it's you thats the one with the complex. Let me leave you with some truth. DO or MD degree says nothing about you as a person.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think it's you thats the one with the complex.

Well of course you do. Ironically that fits exactly what I was saying about you just now

How do you rationalize me telling many people both here and IRL to apply DO who have marginal stats? Or applying DO myself (I applied both, btw)? Super anti-DO So think what you want. You constantly take statements of comparison as anti-DO when in reality they are intended to help people make informed decisions and avoid complex-driven inflation of facts, while the statements themselves simply could not imply that DOs are inferior physicians, while I... you know... those things I mentioned above. Sure. I have the complex Let's go with that. Wouldn't want to shatter your reality with anything like realism

 

[NontradCA]

I don't have time for this anymore

Well of course you do. Ironically that fits exactly what I was saying about you just now

How do you rationalize me telling many people both here and IRL to apply DO who have marginal stats? Or applying DO myself (I applied both, btw)? Super anti-DO So think what you want. You constantly take statements of comparison as anti-DO when in reality they are intended to help people make informed decisions and avoid complex-driven inflation of facts, while the statements themselves simply could not imply that DOs are inferior physicians, while I... you know... those things I mentioned above. Sure. I have the complex Let's go with that. Wouldn't want to shatter your reality with anything like realism

 

[MedPR]

Well of course you do. Ironically that fits exactly what I was saying about you just now

How do you rationalize me telling many people both here and IRL to apply DO who have marginal stats? Or applying DO myself (I applied both, btw)? Super anti-DO So think what you want. You constantly take statements of comparison as anti-DO when in reality they are intended to help people make informed decisions and avoid complex-driven inflation of facts, while the statements themselves simply could not imply that DOs are inferior physicians, while I... you know... those things I mentioned above. Sure. I have the complex Let's go with that. Wouldn't want to shatter your reality with anything like realism

You're a noob for applying DO. Don't you go to a top 25?

 

[SpecterGT260]

It was more to imply that your noobish insecurity is irritating and detracting from any real discussion than it was to state that I am actually short on time.

Its saturday. I got all the time in the world. If you need me to hold your hand through these issues I will be here all day

 

[SpecterGT260]

You're a noob for applying DO. Don't you go to a top 25?

Yes. But the year prior I had basically applied to state school and top 10 thinking I was golden . Failure can be a real system shock. So I didnt want to take any chances on year 2. Fixed the stuff I needed to and applied all over. Still didnt do super hot on the MD side other than the school I got in to, but I was also tailoring my app for them and applied somewhat late to do it. I think this is why other MD schools didn't work out so well bc I was denied interview at a few that I was well over their averages.

 

[MedPR]

Yes. But the year prior I had basically applied to state school and top 10 thinking I was golden . Failure can be a real system shock. So I didnt want to take any chances on year 2. Fixed the stuff I needed to and applied all over. Still didnt do super hot on the MD side other than the school I got in to, but I was also tailoring my app for them and applied somewhat late to do it. I think this is why other MD schools didn't work out so well bc I was denied interview at a few that I was well over their averages.

I hope I won't always envy top 25ers. You nerds and your high GPA/MCAT.

 

[SLC]

This "international practice rights" argument has got to be the most ridiculous argument ever!

You can practice unrestricted in the US with a DO degree.

>99% of US med school graduates will not be moving to a foreign country to practice...even fewer will be moving to one of the countries that doesn't recognize the DO.

So this is essentially what we call a non-issue.

If you want to do charity work (doctors without borders etc.) you can do it with DO. There are different rules that apply to temporary charity work than there are for permanent licensure; unfortunately, most pre-meds don't take the time to discover this.

How do I know this? Because I've done charity work in countries that "don't recognize the DO degree" along side DO's. There were absolutely zero issues that any of them encountered. Additionally, most of these countries are so poor, and in such dire straits that they don't ask questions when someone can help in any way, they may not have official policies on the esoteric difference between US physician degrees, but that doesn't mean that they will not allow DO's to practice medicine during humanitarian efforts.

East Timor is one such country, no official recognition of the DO degree, but they welcomed all our Docs DO and MD alike with open arms, no questions asked. I doubt very much that they even have laws "officially recognizing" the US MD.

So for those of you who think you may want to emigrate to Spain, Portugal, Ukraine, Croatia etc. midway through your career, you might want to re-think DO. For the rest of us, just go where you get in, and where you think you will be the happiest.

And for the love of everything good and pure, please stop feeding the trolls (you all know who they are).

 

[Darthberghen]

Ignore the trolls and their worn out broken record, played over and over thousands of times.

 

[NurWollen]

will do students be considered "sponsored applicants" from now on?

No one knows yet. The AOA and ACGME haven't worked out the details yet.

 

[cliquesh]

So w/ this whole merger of the AOA and ACGME (if I understand it correctly) what is going to happen to Caribbean grads? I'd imagine there will be even less spots for them to match into or more?

If all goes as planned, the current residencies that are AOA accredited will.become acgme accredited, which will mean that there will be more residency spots for Caribbean kids. However, if aoa programs remain distinct or very DO friendly, and if in the future both the acgme and aoa match occur at the same time, then the number of DOs applying for traditional acgme residencies will likely increase, which may displace some of the Caribbean kids from the match. Right now, the aoa match is February 11th and the acgme match in march 15th. No one really knows what's going to happen.

 

[NeuroLAX]

If all goes as planned, the current residencies that are AOA accredited will.become acgme accredited, which will mean that there will be more residency spots for Caribbean kids. However, if aoa programs remain distinct or very DO friendly, and if in the future both the acgme and aoa match occur at the same time, then the number of DOs applying for traditional acgme residencies will likely increase, which may displace some of the Caribbean kids from the match. Right now, the aoa match is February 11th and the acgme match in march 15th. No one really knows what's going to happen.

Do you know if the AOA is adamantly trying to push for osteopathic competency for non-osteopathic students? This could effectively bar them from osteopathic-centered residencies unless they have gone through mandated pre-requirements. I thought one of the big Carib schools is trying to advocate for osteopathic type training at some of their training hospitals. I just find it hard to believe that the AOA will roll over and let the ACGME do what they want with their residency programs without making a case for mandating certain competency requirements for non-osteopathic students applying to AOA residencies.

It seems that there is a still a lot of ironing out to do.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

I would also like to know if DOs would be required to take both comlex and usmle.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The only ironing out they need to do is reduce the amount of time spent on OMM so that DO's can score better on the USMLE.

 

[HalfListic]

Do you know if the AOA is adamantly trying to push for osteopathic competency for non-osteopathic students? This could effectively bar them from osteopathic-centered residencies unless they have gone through mandated pre-requirements. I thought one of the big Carib schools is trying to advocate for osteopathic type training at some of their training hospitals. I just find it hard to believe that the AOA will roll over and let the ACGME do what they want with their residency programs without making a case for mandating certain competency requirements for non-osteopathic students applying to AOA residencies.

It seems that there is a still a lot of ironing out to do.

This is a key point.

Every time, without exception, that the AOA has spoken about their own residencies, they talk about how, and not if, they will implement osteopathic compitency as a requirement for their residencies. (ie OMM theory and practical skill) Which would keep it pretty much all DO still.

Obviously this makes the most sense, and is the most likely thing to happen since the AMA hasnt really opposed it from what Ive heard. So, good news for DOs, and no news for FMGs.

But, as everyone else has said, nothing yet is final.

I would also like to know if DOs would be required to take both comlex and usmle.

No changes proposed here yet....so yes, DOs still have to take Comlex. And its still a choice of if they want to take usmle.

The only ironing out they need to do is reduce the amount of time spent on OMM so that DO's can score better on the USMLE.

Ive heard its not that much of a time commitment and if it keeps AOA residencies DO only (or mostly) then its a great advantage for DOs, and not one I'd like to throw out!!

 

[Skeeks]

Yeah the "international recognition" argument is kind of a dumb one anyways. The only people who may care are those who plan to do something like doctors without borders. I may look into doing foreign work some day with a charity, but no way in hell am I planning on actually practicing permanently anywhere other than 'Murika!

I just want to point out that if you work with Doctors Without Borders that you are working independantly of the practice rights of the country. Meaning DWB is the body that will/will not recognize your degree and they recognize DOs. So if you are going to do DWB then you can do anything as a DO as you can with an MD.

Edit: here is a link if you want to check it out http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/work/field/faqs.cfm#osteo

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

This is a key point.

Every time, without exception, that the AOA has spoken about their own residencies, they talk about how, and not if, they will implement osteopathic compitency as a requirement for their residencies. (ie OMM theory and practical skill) Which would keep it pretty much all DO still.

Obviously this makes the most sense, and is the most likely thing to happen since the AMA hasnt really opposed it from what Ive heard. So, good news for DOs, and no news for FMGs.

But, as everyone else has said, nothing yet is final.






No changes proposed here yet....so yes, DOs still have to take Comlex. And its still a choice of if they want to take usmle.



Ive heard its not that much of a time commitment and if it keeps AOA residencies DO only (or mostly) then its a great advantage for DOs, and not one I'd like to throw out!!

4 hours a week of minimal intensity studying in a class is still time you could have spent studying for the USMLE.
And sure, keeping DO residencies for DOs only would be great, but it'll create more antagonistic feelings. I'd rather some MDs be let in, see that DOs aren't idiots up close so then when they go on and become residency directors they show DOs love.

Also the AOA needs to end the COMLEX. We need all DOs to start taking the USMLE so that they can be compared to MD students.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Also the AOA needs to end the COMLEX. We need all DOs to start taking the USMLE so that they can be compared to MD students.

I agree with this.