M.D.s and D.O.s Moving toward a Single, Unified Accreditation System for GME

[se20001984]

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there is DO biase:


Will the osteopathic training programs become allopathic programs?

No. If discussions are successful, current AOA GME programs will be accredited by ACGME, but will not abandon OPP and OMM as expected competencies. We will be having ongoing discussions with ACGME regarding preserving OPP and OMM within osteopathic training programs. In addition, these discussions will include how OPP and OMM can remain central to these osteopathic-focused training programs.


i dont think that DO programs will open up and accept boat loads of IMG and MD

bare minimum to show no discrimination...

so...we do comlex and get can get acceptance to any MD program then?

or comlex is done too?

based on this the comlex is kept in tact and we can apply anywhere

 

[ValentineLissar]

So are we still facing a residency position shortage that the other thread started talking about now that both the AOA and ACGME residencies are being combined?

To direct you to the thread, it's http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=958813

Also, I would agree with SoulinNeed. I think that the only way that IMGs would be destroyed is if institutions place greater priority for US medical graduates over IMGs. I do think it means that there will be fewer IMGs getting fellowships if they hadn't done their residency in the US.

 

[HalfListic]

Haha. Maybe so. But whatever the true motive is, it was something that desperately needed to be done. Imagine that people will no longer be able to worry about landing a "crappy" DO residency. It will soon have the same quality as its MD counterparts. Not bad 😉

Hopefully the next step is to petition the government, in unison, to fund for more residency slots to open.

This is the best thing that can come of this!

 

[XCourtSmash]

The pdf mentioned that there might just be one match... if that's the case then the COMLEX/USMLE should merge at some point right?

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Well I suppose you don't have to worry about getting that ACGME ortho fellowship now if you go AOA ortho residency...












... that is if your chances of getting into a ortho residency in the first place don't get smashed from this.

 

[abolt18]

This is the best thing that can come of this!

+infinity

 

[ValentineLissar]

This is the best thing that can come of this!

I agree.

Although the government might not provide more Medicare funding for new residency positions if the formerly AOA spots are open to all. They might just say that this move was meant to open more spots for MD students especially with new schools opening up. I mean if you look at the pre-allo thread, some of the responders seemed pretty stoked about the move too.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

... that is if your chances of getting into a ortho residency in the first place don't get smashed from this.

Personally, I doubt that will happen. Everyone who says that the DO specialty programs will be shut to DOs because of the MDs is effectively saying "why would they choose DOs if they have the MD options." That infers that the specialty training programs suck because of that. At least for the first few years, I doubt anything will change. Your DO neurosurgery residencies are probably going to be more biased towards DOs. By then a lot of changes can happen.

I think the people this will screw the most are the ones going to the subpar DO schools.

 

[JGimpel]

We still have to muddle through the vastly inferior COMLEX and the bad DO residency programs will be exposed, so I don't see much of a change for the better, especially if you're looking at fellowships now, the majority of which are run by MDs and select MD graduates and will now have a list of the DO GME programs that didn't make the cut. How long do you think it will take for the AOA GME programs to be run by MDs? Do you really enjoy doing all of UWorld, then all of COMBANK then COMQUEST with the chance that you still may not have figured out what strange stuff is there on test day? I hope this changes that ridiculous extra pressure on us eventually.


You could eat at a restaurant that got a C rating, but why would you when there's one with an A rating down the street and you know exactly how the food was prepared? You could get a decent education at the University of Phoenix, but why when you could go to the University of Michigan with a better system that feeds right into their medical and GME training programs?

Very few DOs keep up their OMM skills once they leave residency, so I doubt that will be maintained very well by ACGME standards that the AOA will have to agree to, so read Savarese once per COMLEX and use it to prop your door open when you're done with it like everyone else does. With the uproar of the California DO to MD conversion that happened many years ago, I doubt the AOA will be bent that far to do away with the DO title nationally, but anything is possible.

What will happen here will be a minimum number of DO students entering the DO programs for them to remain DO, then the rest will be AMGs or the FMG/IMG groups. I would say the benefits will truly become apparent for the class of 2018 and beyond when, hopefully, they get rid of the AOA and NBOME for good. This also means, as I've said before, you'd better do damn good on the USMLE, be prepared to take all levels of it and still pass the COMLEX with some sort of reasonable score.

If an MD program doesn't take the COMLEX, they probably won't take a DO, no matter what the accreditation environment is, so keep an eye on the Med Student and Resident forums to see what's going to happen. Remember, primary care involves Family Practice, Pediatrics, General Surgery, and OB/GYN, so that is where DOs have typically gravitated to and will now be in direct competition with the rest of the MD world, so it's going to be a lot harder to get one of those 2 or 3 positions in a DO hospital.

The real question will be if we're allowed to use Mercury again in medicine as was done decades ago...

 

[Dmr6186]

I agree.

Although the government might not provide more Medicare funding for new residency positions if the formerly AOA spots are open to all. They might just say that this move was meant to open more spots for MD students especially with new schools opening up. I mean if you look at the pre-allo thread, some of the responders seemed pretty stoked about the move too.

Yes and no. There's still the claim that we are going to soon face a massive shortage of doctors because supply can't keep up with demand. While new schools are popping up left and right it seems, there's the growing concern that it will be difficult for newly graduated students to get into one of these spots. There will be more spots that will open. It's just a matter of when because we are going through some major healthcare transitions now that will demand for these measures to happen sooner rather than later.

 

[SoulinNeed]

What I fear is that with this, COCA will feel justified in opening up more DO schools.

 

[HalfListic]

I agree.

Although the government might not provide more Medicare funding for new residency positions if the formerly AOA spots are open to all. They might just say that this move was meant to open more spots for MD students especially with new schools opening up. I mean if you look at the pre-allo thread, some of the responders seemed pretty stoked about the move too.

For sure, the more I read, the better this seems. I think we should all be pretty happy about this.

Coming together is much better than trying to limit each other! (AOA v ACGME)

Even OPTI members should be happy because they might get to join a new ACGME, possibly new, possibly combined board review process.


The next side to this is the logical next step of COCA also joining accreditation so that there are no questions of OMS training as well.

 

[SoulinNeed]

there is DO biase:


Will the osteopathic training programs become allopathic programs?

No. If discussions are successful, current AOA GME programs will be accredited by ACGME, but will not abandon OPP and OMM as expected competencies. We will be having ongoing discussions with ACGME regarding preserving OPP and OMM within osteopathic training programs. In addition, these discussions will include how OPP and OMM can remain central to these osteopathic-focused training programs.


i dont think that DO programs will open up and accept boat loads of IMG and MD

bare minimum to show no discrimination...

so...we do comlex and get can get acceptance to any MD program then?

or comlex is done too?

based on this the comlex is kept in tact and we can apply anywhere

COMLEX will still be around (too bad, cause it sucks). However, even if these programs don't accept "boat loads" of MDs and IMGs, it's still more competition. And I think the details still need to be figured out, but I doubt MD programs will universally recognize the COMLEX, and even if they officially do, there will still be heavy bias against the COMLEX.

COMLEX should be done away with, but that's not going to happen.

 

[zoner]

Personally, I doubt that will happen. Everyone who says that the DO specialty programs will be shut to DOs because of the MDs is effectively saying "why would they choose DOs if they have the MD options." That infers that the specialty training programs suck because of that. At least for the first few years, I doubt anything will change. Your DO neurosurgery residencies are probably going to be more biased towards DOs. By then a lot of changes can happen.

I think the people this will screw the most are the ones going to the subpar DO schools.

Why do you say that? and when you say subpar you mean schools like dmu? 🙂😛

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[SoulinNeed]

For sure, the more I read, the better this seems. I think we should all be pretty happy about this.

Coming together is much better than trying to limit each other! (AOA v ACGME)

Even OPTI members should be happy because they might get to join a new ACGME, possibly new, possibly combined board review process.


The next side to this is the logical next step of COCA also joining accreditation so that there are no questions of OMS training as well.

I doubt that will happen FOR A LONG TIME. It would be great, but the standards are just too different.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Personally, I doubt that will happen. Everyone who says that the DO specialty programs will be shut to DOs because of the MDs is effectively saying "why would they choose DOs if they have the MD options." That infers that the specialty training programs suck because of that. At least for the first few years, I doubt anything will change. Your DO neurosurgery residencies are probably going to be more biased towards DOs. By then a lot of changes can happen.

I think the people this will screw the most are the ones going to the subpar DO schools.

I was just referring to the huge increase in number of appicants that will be applying to the once DO only residencies. Seems logical to assume that this would make things more competitive?

Expand on the subpar DO school comment if you don't mind.

 

[DrBowtie]

Not sure why people are so enthusiastic about this?
What is the usual response to those who say only 1-4 DOs match previous ACGME in competitive specialties?

We have our own! -> No longer.

 

[HalfListic]

Not sure why people are so enthusiastic about this?
What is the usual response to those who say only 1-4 DOs match previous ACGME in competitive specialties?

We have our own! -> No longer.

Because its better than the alternative....things were about to get worse, i.e. DOs needing ACGME residencies to have a ACGME fellowships. Which cuts out several options for many of us who have yet to begin this whole game

 

[zoner]

Not sure why people are so enthusiastic about this?
What is the usual response to those who say only 1-4 DOs match previous ACGME in competitive specialties?

We have our own! -> No longer.

That may be true but there weren't whole alot to start with (competitive aoa specialty redidencies), so in esssence we can look at it as more competitive field will be opening up for those gunner do students

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[Mr Kenobi]

Not sure why people are so enthusiastic about this?
What is the usual response to those who say only 1-4 DOs match previous ACGME in competitive specialties?

We have our own! -> No longer.

This is kinda what I was getting at.

Because its better than the alternative....things were about to get worse, i.e. DOs needing ACGME residencies to have a ACGME fellowships. Which cuts out several options for many of us who have yet to begin this whole game

The problem arises with the fact that it may be harder to even get that certain residency in the first place now though.

 

[DrBowtie]

DO students gain nothing aside from closing or enhancing AOA residencies to meet ACGME standards. They could always apply ACGME.

MD students gain more spots to apply to and prior AOA residencies get more qualified apps to choose from.

Who are the winners here?

 

[HalfListic]

Not sure why people are so enthusiastic about this?
What is the usual response to those who say only 1-4 DOs match previous ACGME in competitive specialties?

We have our own! -> No longer.

That may be true but there weren't whole alot to start with (competitive aoa specialty redidencies), so in esssence we can look at it as more competitive field will be opening up for those gunner do students

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using SDN Mobile

This is kinda what I was getting at.

Didn't you guys see that the ACGME was in the process of changing the requirements for DO's to get into their programs?

They were going to require an ACGME residency for any ACGME fellowship. So, great if you want to be a general (surgeon, orthopedist, etc) but pretty bad if you wanted to complete a fellowship, which is pretty significantly different.

This is why AACOM is doing this! To avoid that very restriction


**things were not going to stay the same, so you cant compare it to now...you have to compare the two futures (restricted DOs vs combined match) I choose combined match, combined accreditation any day! MDs will still have to be OMM and OPP trained if they want AOA residencies which will reduce competition a bit anyway.***



.

 

[se20001984]

it looks like the MDs and IMG cannot apply..unlessthey have osteopathic training


and getting that...after all the bs of medschool...would not seem to be a great idea

just to get an ortho residency in the rural middle of no where america!!

 

[Dmr6186]

The problem arises with the fact that it may be harder to even get that certain residency in the first place now though.

I'm sure by the time we graduate and we are considering choosing our residencies, a lot of the same bias will exist between the MD/DO PDs that are old school and unwilling to change. Later down the line when the bias starts to disintegrate (for these competitive specialties), yes I would consider this more of an issue. But we don't know if more slots will open either. I mean who saw this coming?

 

[abolt18]

Didn't you guys see that the ACGME was in the process of changing the requirements for DO's to get into their programs?

They were going to require an ACGME residency for any ACGME fellowship. So, great if you want to be a general (surgeon, orthopedist, etc) but pretty bad if you wanted to complete a fellowship, which is pretty significantly different.

This is why AACOM is doing this! To avoid that very restriction

AND they were going to require an ACGME internship year to do an ACGME residency. Meaning that if you lived in one of the states that required DO's to do an AOA internship year, you would have to do 1 year AOA internship, 1 year, ACGME internship, then ACGME residency if you chose to go ACGME.

 

[se20001984]

and in all honestly..being spoon fed OPP for 2 years...vs learnings it by urself...
they will not be successfull


its a huge bonus for DO programs...

the MDs dont have this restriction for DOs (MAYBE some progreams will require USMLE)

aside from that its DO all the way

 

[Mr Kenobi]

I'm sure by the time we graduate and we are considering choosing our residencies, a lot of the same bias will exist between the MD/DO PDs that are old school and unwilling to change. Later down the line when the bias starts to disintegrate (for these competitive specialties), yes I would consider this more of an issue. But we don't know if more slots will open either. I mean who saw this coming?

Sounds reasonable.🙂

It will be really interesting to see how this whole thing develops...thats for sure.

 

[HalfListic]

***things were not going to stay the same, so you cant compare it to now...you have to compare the two futures (restricted DOs vs combined match) I choose combined match, combined accreditation any day! MDs will still have to be OMM and OPP trained if they want AOA residencies which will reduce competition a bit anyway.***





I think this is a bonus for all us pre DO's, especially those who want to specialize. It also will further the profession...we need to come together.




edit: as an aside to Dmr6186, I think this was a long time coming and many people have been expecting something like this for a while now

 

[SoulinNeed]

Didn't you guys see that the ACGME was in the process of changing the requirements for DO's to get into their programs?

They were going to require an ACGME residency for any ACGME fellowship. So, great if you want to be a general (surgeon, orthopedist, etc) but pretty bad if you wanted to complete a fellowship, which is pretty significantly different.

This is why AACOM is doing this! To avoid that very restriction


**things were not going to stay the same, so you cant compare it to now...you have to compare the two futures (restricted DOs vs combined match) I choose combined match, combined accreditation any day! MDs will still have to be OMM and OPP trained if they want AOA residencies which will reduce competition a bit anyway.***



.

People get that, dude. They understand WHY the AOA had to do this. I'm sure if it were up to the AOA, they would have liked to have kept AOA residencies DO exclusive, but they had to relent. However, it still sucks for DO students.

 

[Dmr6186]

Didn't you guys see that the ACGME was in the process of changing the requirements for DO's to get into their programs?

They were going to require an ACGME residency for any ACGME fellowship. So, great if you want to be a general (surgeon, orthopedist, etc) but pretty bad if you wanted to complete a fellowship, which is pretty significantly different.

This is why AACOM is doing this! To avoid that very restriction


**things were not going to stay the same, so you cant compare it to now...you have to compare the two futures (restricted DOs vs combined match) I choose combined match, combined accreditation any day! MDs will still have to be OMM and OPP trained if they want AOA residencies which will reduce competition a bit anyway.***



.

Yes, this. The ACGME was not happy and the AOA needed to appease them. Either you get lots of restriction from ACGME fellowships, which is something that DO students would not have been able to do if they completed an AOA internship as opposed to ACGME. The outlook for DOs was much worse yesterday than it is today. We can't compare what DOs used to be able to do with this because that wasn't going to exist anymore. We should be thankful the better of two paths was chosen for our future profession.

 

[HalfListic]

Yes, this. The ACGME was not happy and the AOA needed to appease them. Either you get lots of restriction from ACGME fellowships, which is something that DO students would not have been able to do if they completed an AOA internship as opposed to ACGME. The outlook for DOs was much worse yesterday than it is today. We can't compare what DOs used to be able to do with this because that wasn't going to exist anymore. We should be thankful the better of two paths was chosen for our future profession.

Exactly





But also, this was more a compromise than relenting...they could have continued to fight and fight. But that wouldn't help medical education, or healthcare in general.


This is a long term benefit for the AOA and AACOM, as well as for AMA and ACGME...both benefit from this. And MDs and DOs also benefit.


Everyone hates change, but its the only way progress is made

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Lol. This back and forth is kinda funny.

GOOD THING-- DOs having to do ACGME residencies to get the ACGME fellowships will no longer be an issue

BAD THING-- There will be so many more qualified applicants for competitive residency spots now that were previously DO only.

Right?

 

[Dmr6186]

Sounds reasonable.🙂

It will be really interesting to see how this whole thing develops...thats for sure.

We will definitely see more of an effect within the next coming years how exactly this is all going to work. And yeah, maybe it does make it harder for DOs to match into certain specialities... but the AOA just got big time showed up and maybe it'll start growing up a little bit and start playing with the big boys. While some bad may come from this, a lot of good will definitely come from this. There's always that trade off.

People get that, dude. They understand WHY the AOA had to do this. I'm sure if it were up to the AOA, they would have liked to have kept AOA residencies DO exclusive, but they had to relent. However, it still sucks for DO students.

Well we live in a time where we can't keep excluding qualified individuals to meet the growing demands of healthcare for this country. It's a joke what some of these organizations do.

 

[toxicwombat]

**things were not going to stay the same, so you cant compare it to now...you have to compare the two futures (restricted DOs vs combined match) I choose combined match, combined accreditation any day! MDs will still have to be OMM and OPP trained if they want AOA residencies which will reduce competition a bit anyway.***

Well said.

Overall this is very promising news!

 

[zoner]

Lol. This back and forth is kinda funny.

GOOD THING-- DOs having to do ACGME residencies to get the ACGME fellowships will no longer be an issue

BAD THING-- There will be so many more qualified applicants for competitive residency spots now that were previously DO only.

Right?

right

 

[HalfListic]

Lol. This back and forth is kinda funny.

GOOD THING-- DOs having to do ACGME residencies to get the ACGME fellowships will no longer be an issue

BAD THING-- There will be so many more qualified applicants for competitive residency spots now that were previously DO only.

Right?

Sure, but keep in mind that the "bad thing" was either going to be what you listed here, or something "worse" (the ACGME restrictions)

So, instead of getting "worse thing" only, we are getting "good thing" and "bad thing" (and the bad thing isn't really as big of an issue as some are making it out to be. Still regulated by DOs)

😉

 

[Wolverines83]

For any of you who are going to be entering DO school in the next couple of years this is good news, especially if there's one match. Reason being? OMM requirements (if implemented) will discourage MDs from applying to the (formerly) DO residencies. Add the MD/DO bias that is already in place in some program directors' heads (in both directions) and DO will be favored in the DO programs just like MD is favored in MD programs (obviously this is not all-inclusive, I'm just trying to illustrate a point).

If there's one match you don't have to "risk" skipping the AOA match for MD match. You'll be able to rank all the MD programs you want while being able to throw some DO programs in there as well. To me, that's the biggest difference.

20 years from now I'd say this will be different because most of the "old guard" will be gone and there will be no preference for DO vs MD at DO programs. Then again, a lot of the animosity against DOs at MD programs will be gone as well.

And honestly, one accrediting body is the way to go, regardless of what it's called.

 

[Dmr6186]

Lol. This back and forth is kinda funny.

GOOD THING-- DOs having to do ACGME residencies to get the ACGME fellowships will no longer be an issue
AOA residencies meeting quality ACGME standards to increase residency education for graduating DO students
Positive results of the AOA and ACGME working together, which can possibly lead to further collaboration for the future of medical education
AOA learning that if it wants DOs to have equal respect as MDs, it starts with them first

BAD THING-- There will be so many more qualified applicants for competitive residency spots now that were previously DO only.
work harder, lol, it's a competitive world everywhere you go nowadays

So in essence you may not even get the opportunity to specialize in what you potentially would have before this went into effect due to the sheer increase in the number of competitive applicants for each spot.

.

 

[HalfListic]

For any of you who are going to be entering DO school in the next couple of years this is good news, especially if there's one match. Reason being? OMM requirements (if implemented) will discourage MDs from applying to the (formerly) DO residencies. Add the MD/DO bias that is already in place in some program directors' heads (in both directions) and DO will be favored in the DO programs just like MD is favored in MD programs (obviously this is not all-inclusive, I'm just trying to illustrate a point).

If there's one match you don't have to "risk" skipping the AOA match for MD match. You'll be able to rank all the MD programs you want while being able to throw some DO programs in there as well. To me, that's the biggest difference.

20 years from now I'd say this will be different because most of the "old guard" will be gone and there will be no preference for DO vs MD at DO programs. Then again, a lot of the animosity against DOs at MD programs will be gone as well.

And honestly, one accrediting body is the way to go, regardless of what it's called.

+1 thanks for the post...

great comment

 

[HockeyDr09]

There are literally 3 threads on this right now and I have no idea which one to post in.

This is a HUGE win for D.O's, at this point I don't really care who says otherwise (just ignore them, they're always complaining about something)

We went from potentially not being able to even enter M.D fellowships after AOA and having to repeat our TRI's before entering the ACGME to:

1. Being able to enter any fellowship or TRI, because they will all be accredited by one body.
   
2. Be able to have 1 match list, no more worrying about matching AOA first and being pulled out of the match.
   
3. Increasing the standards of some of our AOA residency programs by forcing them to to adhere to ACGME policies.
   
4. As of right now MD/IMG students still cannot enter the AOA match which retains our AOA options (I fully expect this to change in the future, and MD's should be allowed to enter our programs, but as of right now, it's not happening).
   
5. If you want to practice in one of the states that requires you to do an AOA TRI (Penn, Florida, Oklahoma, etc) you may not have to do that anymore (yes I know you could appeal but it's a pain) that very well might be disappearing.
   
6. It will lead to more DO's matching into MD residencies and it will (in the future) lead to less discrimination. You kidding yourself if you think otherwise. It may take some time, but it will happen.
   
7. The "influx" of MD student shooting for DO residencies (which they can't even do yet) will be moderated by DO program directors who know that we are actively discriminated against at the "top tier" MD residencies. Over time, just like with MD directors, we will start to see equality.
   

This is awful for IMG's.

1. They can't enter the AOA programs.
   
2. Now they need to do an ACGME residency to do a fellowship.
   
3. You're going to have more DO's applying to "MD" residencies which will kick out even more IMG's
   

 

[Mr Kenobi]

Sure, but keep in mind that the "bad thing" was either going to be what you listed here, or something "worse" (the ACGME restrictions)

So, instead of getting "worse thing" only, we are getting "good thing" and "bad thing"

😉

Edit: I guess the OMM requirement may still preserve the DO residencies to a certain extent.

 

[se20001984]

there is NO increase in competition

the DO has implemeted (or will)
OMT and OPP requirments

NO md will want to re-study a completly new subject..just to get an extra residency program in the middle of nowhere....as back up..they would RATHER..study longer on the USMLE and have a better board score!!

They will NOT study opp...so that they can learn something and never use it again...i believe 80% of DOs dont even use OMT to this day!!

they WILL not study opp...even if they do..its 2 years worth of learning and hands on practice they will NOT be successful as the DO and have much lower comlex scores esp part 2

the MDs have gone into MD school..INORDER TO avoid OMT!

there is no increase in compeition if this restriction is put on!!

it practically stop MDs from applying! 100%

 

[se20001984]

if the ACGME said that DOs need to learn japanesse in order to apply...to a VERYY VERYY small # of positions

many of us would not even consider that an option...

 

[Dmr6186]

There are literally 3 threads on this right now and I have no idea which one to post in.

This is a HUGE win for D.O's, at this point I don't really care who says otherwise (just ignore them, they're always complaining about something)

We went from potentially not being able to even enter M.D fellowships after AOA and having to repeat our TRI's before entering the ACGME to:

• Being able to enter any fellowship or TRI, because they will all be accredited by one body.
• Be able to have 1 match list, no more worrying about matching AOA first and being pulled out of the match.
• Increasing the standards of some of our AOA residency programs by forcing them to to adhere to ACGME policies.
• As of right now MD/IMG students still cannot enter the AOA match which retains our AOA options (I fully expect this to change in the future, and MD's should be allowed to enter our programs, but as of right now, it's not happening).
• If you want to practice in one of the states that requires you to do an AOA TRI (Penn, Florida, Oklahoma, etc) you may not have to do that anymore (yes I know you could appeal but it's a pain) that very well might be disappearing.
• It will lead to more DO's matching into MD residencies and it will (in the future) lead to less discrimination. You kidding yourself if you think otherwise. It may take some time, but it will happen.
• The "influx" of MD student shooting for DO residencies (which they can't even do yet) will be moderated by DO program directors who know that we are actively discriminated against at the "top tier" MD residencies. Over time, just like with MD directors, we will start to see equality.

This is awful for IMG's.

• They can't enter the AOA programs.
• Now they need to do an ACGME residency to do a fellowship.
• You're going to have more DO's applying to "MD" residencies which will kick out even more IMG's

Much better list than I could come up with. Thank you 👍

 

[zoner]

there is NO increase in competition

the DO has implemeted (or will)
OMT and OPP requirments

NO md will want to re-study a completly new subject..just to get an extra residency program in the middle of nowhere....as back up..they would RATHER..study longer on the USMLE and have a better board score!!

They will NOT study opp...so that they can learn something and never use it again...i believe 80% of DOs dont even use OMT to this day!!

they WILL not study opp...even if they do..its 2 years worth of learning and hands on practice they will NOT be successful as the DO and have much lower comlex scores esp part 2

the MDs have gone into MD school..INORDER TO avoid OMT!

there is no increase in compeition if this restriction is put on!!

it practically stop MDs from applying! 100%

Hmm logical take!

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[HalfListic]

There are literally 3 threads on this right now and I have no idea which one to post in.

This is a HUGE win for D.O's, at this point I don't really care who says otherwise (just ignore them, they're always complaining about something)

We went from potentially not being able to even enter M.D fellowships after AOA and having to repeat our TRI's before entering the ACGME to:

1. Being able to enter any fellowship or TRI, because they will all be accredited by one body.
   
2. Be able to have 1 match list, no more worrying about matching AOA first and being pulled out of the match.
   
3. Increasing the standards of some of our AOA residency programs by forcing them to to adhere to ACGME policies.
   
4. As of right now MD/IMG students still cannot enter the AOA match which retains our AOA options (I fully expect this to change in the future, and MD's should be allowed to enter our programs, but as of right now, it's not happening).
   
5. If you want to practice in one of the states that requires you to do an AOA TRI (Penn, Florida, Oklahoma, etc) you may not have to do that anymore (yes I know you could appeal but it's a pain) that very well might be disappearing.
   
6. It will lead to more DO's matching into MD residencies and it will (in the future) lead to less discrimination. You kidding yourself if you think otherwise. It may take some time, but it will happen.
   
7. The "influx" of MD student shooting for DO residencies (which they can't even do yet) will be moderated by DO program directors who know that we are actively discriminated against at the "top tier" MD residencies. Over time, just like with MD directors, we will start to see equality.
   

This is awful for IMG's.

1. They can't enter the AOA programs.
   
2. Now they need to do an ACGME residency to do a fellowship.
   
3. You're going to have more DO's applying to "MD" residencies which will kick out even more IMG's
   

+1 Great post


This is exactly what Ive been trying to explain.

 

[Mr Kenobi]

There are literally 3 threads on this right now and I have no idea which one to post in.

This is a HUGE win for D.O's, at this point I don't really care who says otherwise (just ignore them, they're always complaining about something)

We went from potentially not being able to even enter M.D fellowships after AOA and having to repeat our TRI's before entering the ACGME to:

1. Being able to enter any fellowship or TRI, because they will all be accredited by one body.
   
2. Be able to have 1 match list, no more worrying about matching AOA first and being pulled out of the match.
   
3. Increasing the standards of some of our AOA residency programs by forcing them to to adhere to ACGME policies.
   
4. As of right now MD/IMG students still cannot enter the AOA match which retains our AOA options (I fully expect this to change in the future, and MD's should be allowed to enter our programs, but as of right now, it's not happening).
   
5. If you want to practice in one of the states that requires you to do an AOA TRI (Penn, Florida, Oklahoma, etc) you may not have to do that anymore (yes I know you could appeal but it's a pain) that very well might be disappearing.
   
6. It will lead to more DO's matching into MD residencies and it will (in the future) lead to less discrimination. You kidding yourself if you think otherwise. It may take some time, but it will happen.
   
7. The "influx" of MD student shooting for DO residencies (which they can't even do yet) will be moderated by DO program directors who know that we are actively discriminated against at the "top tier" MD residencies. Over time, just like with MD directors, we will start to see equality.
   

This is awful for IMG's.

1. They can't enter the AOA programs.
   
2. Now they need to do an ACGME residency to do a fellowship.
   
3. You're going to have more DO's applying to "MD" residencies which will kick out even more IMG's
   

Nice post

 

[Ost3oclast]

I think this is great. My fellowship opportunities are intact! I was really stressing about this but wow, never saw this coming. Even if we have to now compete with MD's in the "AOA" residencies, we shouldnt fear doing so. If you want a competitive specialty now, you need to bust your *** just like you did before, only a little more. You should welcome the competition if it takes us one step closer to less DO discrimination and bias on the basis on GME training.

Edit- I agree about this being devastating for IMG's, I have a feeling that this was one of the goals of the agreement though...

 

[ValentineLissar]

I actually don't see how this is devastating for IMG's. I see how it limits them if they try to get fellowships when they had their residency in a foreign country, but how does this devastate them when they apply for residency positions fresh out of medical school?

Won't this give them more opportunity to apply for more spots with the old ACGME and AOA being combined?

Can someone clarify?

 

[zoner]

Well one very important thing for all dos to do from now on is to make sure to find some decent research to participate in. md schools have much more advantage for that reason

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