M2s in my class wrongly signing up to receive COVID vaccine

[Humerus Guy]

Hello,

I am usually just a lurker but wanted to share what some of my classmates have decided to do. We received the vaccine at our university and phase 1 includes those with direct contact with patients. We are M2s and are about to enter dedicated until March and then after that we have 3 months to do research or some other scholarly concentration. So it is going to be a long time until we are even near a patient. One of my classmates encouraged everyone in the group message that spots were filling up fast on the online portal and to sign up right away to receive the vaccine - when we were clearly instructed that preclerkship students may not sign up yet.

This prompted a lot of classmates to respond and state their opinions that this was wrong. Now many have come to the student's defense. The student was reported to the university by others. I thought this was incredibly selfish to do when we are about to be months away from patient contact.

Thoughts?

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[GoSpursGo]

Why does this bother anyone? If someone is in the group that is allowed to sign up for the vaccine and they choose to do so, that's great. If someone chooses to let others get the vaccine first because they think they don't need it as urgently, that's great too.

Just stay out of other peoples' business and generally you'll be much happier.

 

[Humerus Guy]

Why does this bother anyone? If someone is in the group that is allowed to sign up for the vaccine and they choose to do so, that's great. If someone chooses to let others get the vaccine first because they think they don't need it as urgently, that's great too.

Just stay out of other peoples' business and generally you'll be much happier.

They are not in the group allowed to get it...that's the issue.

 

[GoSpursGo]

They are not in the group allowed to get it...that's the issue.

Oh, then it's good that they were reported. Didn't read the post closely enough at first. But it's also dumb that they set up the system in a way that allowed anyone to sign up even if they're not in the right group.

In any event, I still don't think this is something to get up in arms about.

 

[NicMouse64]

Oh, then it's good that they were reported. But it's also dumb that they set up the system in a way that allowed anyone to sign up even if they're not in the right group.

In any event, I still don't think this is something to get up in arms about.

I'd say this is a legit "professional issue". As opposed to most of the things med schools get in a frenzy about. It's both selfish and dishonest and maybe even harmful.

 

[Lawpy]

This prompted a lot of classmates to respond and state their opinions that this was wrong. Now many have come to the student's defense. The student was reported to the university by others. I thought this was incredibly selfish to do when we are about to be months away from patient contact.

Thoughts?

The fact that many came to defend those clearly unethical actions is frustrating.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'd say this is a legit "professional issue". As opposed to most of the things med schools get in a frenzy about. It's both selfish and dishonest and maybe even harmful.

OK? So again, he's been reported and someone will decide what course of action needs to be taken. I'm still not sure why you and your classmates are spending time and energy worrying about it now that he has already been reported.

 

[Animalcules]

This is infuriating and selfish. Same is true for people in labs “using patient samples“ trying to skip in front of workers that actually see patients.

 

[Lawpy]

OK? So again, he's been reported and someone will decide what course of action needs to be taken. I'm still not sure why you and your classmates are spending time and energy worrying about it now that he has already been reported.

Is it possible that he gets expelled? Because i'm pretty certain his actions were a massive breach in trust, professionalism and school policy

 

[Humerus Guy]

Is it possible that he gets expelled? Because i'm pretty certain his actions were a massive breach in trust, professionalism and school policy

The student apologized to everyone but unsure if there were any other repercussions or not.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Is it possible that he gets expelled? Because i'm pretty certain his actions were a massive breach in trust, professionalism and school policy

Really, that seems like an appropriate response to you? Like sure, bad on him for doing that, I legit misread the OP at first, but that seems like a super extreme consequence.

People make mistakes, sometimes big ones. Nobody got hurt, and it's a stretch to say that anyone was going to be actively harmed even if he hadn't gotten caught. There will presumably be some sort of institutional action on his MSPE that will follow him through residency applications, so he's not getting off without repercussion. But to me an expulsion would be a major overreaction.

 

[Humerus Guy]

Really, that seems like an appropriate response to you? Like sure, bad on him for doing that, I legit misread the OP at first, but that seems like a super extreme consequence.

People make mistakes, sometimes big ones. Nobody got hurt, and it's a stretch to say that anyone was going to be actively harmed even if he hadn't gotten caught. There will presumably be some sort of institutional action on his MSPE that will follow him through residency applications, so he's not getting off without repercussion. But to me an expulsion would be a major overreaction.

I agree. I don't think there is any disagreement that is was unethical - I think it became a bigger issue by encouraging others to go do so. I wouldn't want to see anyone expelled.

 

[Lawpy]

Really, that seems like an appropriate response to you? Like sure, bad on him for doing that, I legit misread the OP at first, but that seems like a super extreme consequence.

People make mistakes, sometimes big ones. Nobody got hurt, and it's a stretch to say that anyone was going to be actively harmed even if he hadn't gotten caught. There will presumably be some sort of institutional action on his MSPE that will follow him through residency applications, so he's not getting off without repercussion. But to me an expulsion would be a major overreaction.

The thing is he's encouraging everyone to break the school policy and get vaccinated when they're not supposed to. It's a serious abuse of limited resources that could've been used for truly essential healthcare workers. The fact that several of OP's classmates were defending the actions is problematic.

I don't think the student's behavior is a one time thing and probably did other bad things before. Expulsion is an extreme action yes but breaking school policy and encouraging others to do so for something like this needs to be punished as severely as possible. Maybe an institutional action about serious professionalism violation on MSPE is best approach.

But not sure whether the guy could be trusted on the wards. That's where the greatest danger lies

 

[Lawpy]

The student apologized to everyone but unsure if there were any other repercussions or not.

That sounds like he's apologizing because he got caught and punished.

 

[Tragal Pointer]

This plan is a great way to get a nasty lil note on the MSPE and not match.

 

[NicMouse64]

Really, that seems like an appropriate response to you? Like sure, bad on him for doing that, I legit misread the OP at first, but that seems like a super extreme consequence.

People make mistakes, sometimes big ones. Nobody got hurt, and it's a stretch to say that anyone was going to be actively harmed even if he hadn't gotten caught. There will presumably be some sort of institutional action on his MSPE that will follow him through residency applications, so he's not getting off without repercussion. But to me an expulsion would be a major overreaction.

I know the type of person in my class who would do something like this. If you think the rules don't apply to you or you should take advantage of the system who knows what else they would do. The profession already has a credibility issue, the student deserves whatever punishment they get, expulsion included.

 

[ArteryStudyPainting]

Bruh you're a student

 

[Osteosaur]

I can't believe an M2 is trying to sneak on line to do this, like a college kid sharing around homework answers or crashing an event for free food. Its disgusting.

However, the university should be checking if it wants to restrict its administration.

I am surprised so many med students are eager. I mean its a totally new type of vaccine whose long-term effects have never been tested in humans? I'd be more apprehensive about being made to get it, really...

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I can't believe an M2 is trying to sneak on line to do this, like a college kid sharing around homework answers or crashing an event for free food. Its disgusting.

However, the university should be checking if it wants to restrict its administration.

I am surprised so many med students are eager. I mean its a totally new type of vaccine whose long-term effects have never been tested in humans? I'd be more apprehensive about being made to get it, really...

mRNA vaccines have been studied for over a decade. It’s the first one to be approved, but they’ve been studying them in humans for a long time, and it went through every safety step any other vaccine goes through. Maybe some things will show up in postmarket surveillance, but they will be uncommon or rare. I would gladly get it right now.

As for this student, I agree that it was dumb of him to try to get it when he was told not to. He also was reported and will face consequences. Problem solved, the system worked. Not sure why so many people (not taking about you specifically osteosaur) feel the need to virtue signal and call for expulsion and ****. That’s ridiculous.

 

[Lawpy]

mRNA vaccines have been studied for over a decade. It’s the first one to be approved, but they’ve been studying them in humans for a long time, and it went through every safety step any other vaccine goes through. Maybe some things will show up in postmarket surveillance, but they will be uncommon or rare. I would gladly get it right now.

As for this student, I agree that it was dumb of him to try to get it when he was told not to. He also was reported and will face consequences. Problem solved, the system worked. Not sure why so many people (not taking about you specifically osteosaur) feel the need to virtue signal and call for expulsion and ****. That’s ridiculous.

It's not really virtue signaling to condemn the guy for openly encouraging classmates to break school policy and selfishly hoard on limited resources. That's a serious professionalism violation and so it's pretty justified to punish him severely if not expel him. This isn't an honest mistake, and i won't be surprised if the guy ends up doing even more horrible things in the wards, which is the biggest worry

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's not really virtue signaling to condemn the guy for openly encouraging classmates to break school policy and selfishly hoard on limited resources. That's a serious professionalism violation and so it's pretty justified to punish him severely if not expel him. This isn't an honest mistake, and i won't be surprised if the guy ends up doing even more horrible things in the wards, which is the biggest worry

“Selfishly hoarding limited resources?” Lol really?

 

[Lawpy]

“Selfishly hoarding limited resources?” Lol really?

It is limited which is why there's a priority list. The guy knew about it and decided not to care and rally classmates to ignore school policy and quickly get vaccinated. This isn't him accidentally signing up because he forgot.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is limited which is why there's a priority list. The guy knew about it and decided not to care and rally classmates to ignore school policy and quickly get vaccinated. This isn't him accidentally signing up because he forgot.

Except he didn’t because he got caught. There’s a reason we have different punishments for murder and attempted murder.

 

[Lawpy]

Except he didn’t because he got caught. There’s a reason we have different punishments for murder and attempted murder.

The potential damage got stopped but it's the intent to break the school policy that's a major problem. The guy didn't sign up by accident. It's an intentional attempt to ignore the school policy and get other classmates to follow.

Maybe expulsion won't happen but the guy should 100% get slammed with a major professionalism violation in his MSPE at the very least.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The potential damage got stopped but it's the intent to break the school policy that's a major problem. The guy didn't sign up by accident. It's an intentional attempt to ignore the school policy and get other classmates to follow.

Maybe expulsion won't happen but the guy should 100% get slammed with a major professionalism violation in his MSPE at the very least.

Yes, he should.

 

[Lawpy]

Yes, he should.

Hypothetically speaking, suppose he actually gets expelled for this. He sues to get readmitted. How will he win? Because while it's the most severe punishment, will anyone have sympathy for him trying to cut in line (and encouraging others to do so)?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Hypothetically speaking, suppose he actually gets expelled for this. He sues to get readmitted. How will he win? Because while it's the most severe punishment, will anyone have sympathy for him trying to cut in line (and encouraging others to do so)?

He wouldn’t. The school can expel anyone for anything they deem unprofessional. Very few people win those suits.

 

[Redpancreas]

Wow. This is a terrible look for that student and I would definitely judge anyone who encouraged him for signing up. I bet it went like this.

1.) Chief Rule-Breaker: Hey guys, I heard we can sign up to receive this vaccine. Even though we're all about to self-isolate for 3 months and have little need for it, I feel I need it because of XYZ situation specific to me so therefore I'm going to make myself an exception to the rule.

2.) Others: No dude, that's BS. Its meant to be for people exposed to COVID on a daily basis who are putting their lives at risk.

3.) Rule Breaker Apologists: Life is tough and I'd do the same in your position, tough luck for the people who actually need it, they can just get it after I do.

I believe this individual should definitely be handed disciplinary action. I think expulsion is a bit much (BUT not preposterous if it happened) and this definitely needs to be noted on someone's file. Such a breach of trust shouldn't be taken lightly in our field and there's already too many people who sympathize with this "jump-the-line-mentality" because of our status in our field.

 

[Humerus Guy]

Wow. This is a terrible look for that student and I would definitely judge anyone who encouraged him for signing up. I bet it went like this.

1.) Chief Rule-Breaker: Hey guys, I heard we can sign up to receive this vaccine. Even though we're all about to self-isolate for 3 months and have little need for it, I feel I need it because of XYZ situation specific to me so therefore I'm going to make myself an exception to the rule.

2.) Others: No dude, that's BS. Its meant to be for people exposed to COVID on a daily basis who are putting their lives at risk.

3.) Rule Breaker Apologists: Life is tough and I'd do the same in your position, tough luck for the people who actually need it, they can just get it after I do.

I believe this individual should definitely be handed disciplinary action. I think expulsion is a bit much (BUT not preposterous if it happened) and this definitely needs to be noted on someone's file. Such a breach of trust shouldn't be taken lightly in our field and there's already too many people who sympathize with this "jump-the-line-mentality" because of our status in our field.

That's about exactly how it went and ended with some being upset at those who called him out - saying they should have considered his perspective first. The main argument against him was that this has been hard for everyone, not just you, and you can't take it from someone who really needs it

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That's about exactly how it went and ended with people being mad at the ones who called him out on it

People do that all the time. You will even find people on this forum saying you shouldn’t report students cheating and stuff like that.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

I can't believe an M2 is trying to sneak on line to do this, like a college kid sharing around homework answers or crashing an event for free food. Its disgusting.

However, the university should be checking if it wants to restrict its administration.

I am surprised so many med students are eager. I mean its a totally new type of vaccine whose long-term effects have never been tested in humans? I'd be more apprehensive about being made to get it, really...

Not to derail but the bolded statement is hardly equivalent, especially not knowing the full situation of the student. I've had to go without food myself in college, I didn't take free food from events but you could say I still had a conventional sense of morality at that time, but most events with free food end up just tossing it in the trash after anyways. Taking some of that food is very unlikely to harm somebody unlike what the student in OPs post did.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Not to derail but the bolded statement is hardly equivalent, especially not knowing the full situation of the student. I've had to go without food myself in college, I didn't take free food from events but you could say I still had a conventional sense of morality at that time, but most events with free food end up just tossing it in the trash after anyways. Taking some of that food is very unlikely to harm somebody unlike what the student in OPs post did.

What the student in the OP did was pretty unlikely to directly harm anyone. It’s not a life saving treatment with limited supply. It’s a vaccine that is now going to be in constant production with another version coming out extremely soon as well.

Not defending his actions though. They were wrong and he should face consequences.

 

[AnonymousDoctorGuyPerson]

What the student in the OP did was pretty unlikely to directly harm anyone. It’s not a life saving treatment with limited supply. It’s a vaccine that is now going to be in constant production with another version coming out extremely soon as well.

Not defending his actions though. They were wrong and he should face consequences.

You're right, I guess I shouldn't have compared the actions by the impact but rather by the intent and purpose.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You're right, I guess I shouldn't have compared the actions not by the impact but rather by the intent.

Yeah in general I agree with you. Taking free food from an event that’s going to be tossed in the trash anyway is not even close to the same thing.

 

[Goro]

Is it possible that he gets expelled? Because i'm pretty certain his actions were a massive breach in trust, professionalism and school policy

I think said student would be suspended at my school. If the student had previous issues and was on radar, then this would be the final straw.

 

[NicMouse64]

What the student in the OP did was pretty unlikely to directly harm anyone. It’s not a life saving treatment with limited supply. It’s a vaccine that is now going to be in constant production with another version coming out extremely soon as well.

Not defending his actions though. They were wrong and he should face consequences.

Usually agree with 99% of what you say on this forum, but disagree with the sentiment as it's shown to be lifesaving.

mRNA vaccines have been studied for over a decade. It’s the first one to be approved, but they’ve been studying them in humans for a long time, and it went through every safety step any other vaccine goes through. Maybe some things will show up in postmarket surveillance, but they will be uncommon or rare. I would gladly get it right now.

As for this student, I agree that it was dumb of him to try to get it when he was told not to. He also was reported and will face consequences. Problem solved, the system worked. Not sure why so many people (not taking about you specifically osteosaur) feel the need to virtue signal and call for expulsion and ****. That’s ridiculous.

I'm not sure if expulsion is the correct punishment, just rather that the student should be punished. It's akin to lying on a rotation when a preceptor asks if you did something or followed up on something when the student is clearly lying.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Usually agree with 99% of what you say on this forum, but disagree with the sentiment as it's shown to be lifesaving.

It’s not been shown to be lifesaving. It’s shown to be very efficacious in preventing COVID and serious disease. The majority of people who get COVID will not die even without the vaccine. (Please note that I am not downplaying the seriousness of the pandemic here.)

Don’t get me wrong, I think someone taking the vaccine when they aren’t at high risk and there are other people there who are going to be at risk who should take it first is wrong and should face consequences if they were explicitly told not to. But this isn’t a diphtheria antitoxin in an Alaskan town with an outbreak that has only 50 doses and someone is taking one from a sick person “just in case.”

It’s arguing semantics but I think it’s a bit of an important point. Maybe it was selfish (I think it was), but he wasn’t going to kill anyone by getting it.

I'm not sure if expulsion is the correct punishment, just rather that the student should be punished. It's akin to lying on a rotation when a preceptor asks if you did something or followed up on something when the student is clearly lying.

Agreed. Should definitely follow him professionally like be on his MSPE or something.

 

[DokterMom]

I think said student would be suspended at my school. If the student had previous issues and was on radar, then this would be the final straw.

In my imaginings, this student would either be entitled, with a "rules don't apply to me" mentality and a pattern of taking advantage, or historically disadvantaged, with a life experience that affirms a "better get it while you can because you know it's going to run out and you won't get any" mentality. I'm curious if/which that's the case.

 

[Humerus Guy]

In my imaginings, this student would either be entitled, with a "rules don't apply to me" mentality and a pattern of taking advantage, or historically disadvantaged, with a life experience that affirms a "better get it while you can because you know it's going to run out and you won't get any" mentality. I'm curious if/which that's the case.

I can't say for sure. His reasoning was there will be plenty to go around soon, the pandemic has caused him anxiety, and he has older parents. I understand his perspective, but this has been hard on everyone, its not unique to him. Just doesn't seem right to cut in line.

Thank you all for a good discussion.

 

[Redpancreas]

I can't say for sure. His reasoning was there will be plenty to go around soon, the pandemic has caused him anxiety, and he has older parents. I understand his perspective, but this has been hard on everyone, its not unique to him. Just doesn't seem right to cut in line.

Thank you all for a good discussion.

Everyone in medical school has older parents (average probably 55-60) and has compensated /decompensated anxiety.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Everyone in medical school has older parents (average probably 55-60) and has compensated /decompensated anxiety.

Mine are 70! I’m also 13 years older than the average med student lol.

 

[Oso]

Wow that’s unprofessional and frankly really annoying. Just wait until your turn, especially when others are on the front line and you’re about to spend 2 months studying for step. How especially ****ty to encourage others to do so as well.

I’m glad the student got reported - I feel confident the administration will deal with it appropriately. Let him be chastised in whatever manner the school sees fit and, more importantly perhaps, let it serve as an example for others.

I agree that expulsion and other similarly drastic measures are uncalled for, however.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

It's not really virtue signaling to condemn the guy for openly encouraging classmates to break school policy and selfishly hoard on limited resources. That's a serious professionalism violation and so it's pretty justified to punish him severely if not expel him. This isn't an honest mistake, and i won't be surprised if the guy ends up doing even more horrible things in the wards, which is the biggest worry

I agree. This is incredibly unprofessional and selfish, and while I don’t think it warrants expulsion, it is a serious breach of ethics and a violation to “do no harm.” Taking something for yourself when you’re not at risk, when it could be used to save someone else, is doing harm. It is the antithesis of being a good doctor. I’m a trauma surgeon and I’m obligated to treat covid positive trauma patients who refuse to wear masks because it’s not “elective surgery.” And even I am not getting the vaccine yet— the most vulnerable are the ER and ICU staff, they get it first. So apologists for this guy can spare me the excuses.... An ms2 with no clinical contact would be DOA at my program if I saw this on their mspe.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

An ms2 with no clinical contact would be DOA at my program if I saw this on their mspe.

I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying he should not have something on his MSPE, are they?

 

[Lawpy]

I don’t think anyone in this thread is saying he should not have something on his MSPE, are they?

Do you think he should be suspended at least?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Do you think he should be suspended at least?

I think he should have a professionalism mark on his MSPE. That will basically kill any chance of a competitive specialty or program and probably his chances of matching at all. I think that’s sufficient.

 

[Lawpy]

I think he should have a professionalism mark on his MSPE. That will basically kill any chance of a competitive specialty or program and probably his chances of matching at all. I think that’s sufficient.

I'm just concerned that he's going to harm patients in clinical years. I know this is slippery slope but i just can't trust the guy

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'm just concerned that he's going to harm patients in clinical years. I know this is slippery slope but i just can't trust the guy

I think you overestimate how much a med student can really do. Unless you think he’s going to actively hurt people intentionally.

 

[Goro]

I think you overestimate how much a med student can really do. Unless you think he’s going to actively hurt people intentionally.

The problem is we know that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. My clinical colleagues take professionalism very, very seriously.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The problem is we know that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. My clinical colleagues take professionalism very, very seriously.

They should. No one is saying they shouldn’t.