Match Results, Class of 2013

[NurWollen]

An MD derm match for AZCOM? I always heard derm MD was impossible for DOs to get into.

Nothing is impossible. The AZCOM class before mine had an allo rad/onc match I believe at mayo too. AZCOM generally does well in the ACGME world

Yeah, I know there are problems judging a school by its match list, but seeing this one still makes me soooo pumped to be starting at AZCOM this fall.

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[Prncssbuttercup]

Congrats on your acceptance NurWollen

 

[LovelyBRass]

As awesome as these lists appear, I think something important needs to be pointed out:
Many times a top name program isn't what the candidate wanted... When you all interview, some may visit so called "Stellar programs", but then, when match list comes, you will find that you just "Click" with a program, top-tier or not.

The lesson here, is take these lists with a grain of salt.

In that case, DO students don't seem to click very well with top programs. Has anyone ever noticed that the only lists people say to take with a grain of salt are DO ones?

 

[Ost3oclast]

Yeah, I know there are problems judging a school by its match list, but seeing this one still makes me soooo pumped to be starting at AZCOM this fall.

Me too. That list really makes me feel better about my acceptance there.

 

[cliquesh]

In that case, DO students don't seem to click very well with top programs. Has anyone ever noticed that the only lists people say to take with a grain of salt are DO ones?

The mentality at DO schools is different than most MD schools. A significant portion of DO students want primary care from day 1. The majority of DOs apply only to AOA programs. Most DOs that do apply to Acgme programs only apply to a handful of local residency programs, many of which are community programs.

Most importantly, however, the majority of DOs are not very competitive applicants (low usmle scores, no research, no letters from big name people). Consequently, most DOs do not qualify for "top" residencies. Then for those DOs that do qualify, most top residencies won't interview DOs, especially the ones in major cities.

It's really hard to look at a DO list and gauge what's going on. The average DO student and the average MD student are not equal, at least on paper. I think people forget this when they are looking at DO match lists. Only 3 people in my class got above a 240 on the usmle. The average board score at Mayo medical school is a 240.

I think DOs that do well or compariable to an average MD student fair roughly the same in the match, except for surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad-onc. I, for example, had a good usmle, good preclinical grades, average clinical grades and no research. I applied to 19 of the "top" 25 programs for anesthiology and I interviewed at 10 of them. I ranked 2 other programs higher than any of those top programs and I matched my #2 choice.

There are simply not many DO students in each class that have an impressive application.

 

[bleeker10]

Has anyone ever noticed that the only lists people say to take with a grain of salt are DO ones?

Not true at all. Peruse the match list threads in the allopathic forum for the last few years and there are plenty of people saying to look at match lists with a grain of salt. One poster in particular, Law2Doc, always agrees with this notion. This always comes up every year around match time.

Here's an example
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12125588&postcount=8

The thread the above is from:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12125588

 

[valkener]

There are simply not many DO students in each class that have an impressive application.

You have some valid points but your conclusion is totally wrong. DO's beat many MD for too many competitive spots to support this claim (derm at mayo, etc). Yes DO students do have lower MCAT scores but among these are still many that score high (33+). Some (like me) apply late in the interview season and not broadly enough, and thus end up at their safety anchor: DO school.

There is no shame in this at all, but 4 years is a looong time for people to move up or down when it comes to competitiveness. I'm assuming you are at an MD school because if you were at a DO school you would see we have the same type of gunners you do, and too many.

In the end, a program director wants the most capable and fitting person, which is why the letters (DO or MD) only play a trivial role for many programs. However, as you said, many DO students go with AOA residencies because they don't have the balls to drop out of the AOA match and I don't necessarily blame them since the odds are better there.

 

[sylvanthus]

You have some valid points but your conclusion is totally wrong. DO's beat many MD for too many competitive spots to support this claim (derm at mayo, etc). Yes DO students do have lower MCAT scores but among these are still many that score high (33+). Some (like me) apply late in the interview season and not broadly enough, and thus end up at their safety anchor: DO school.

There is no shame in this at all, but 4 years is a looong time for people to move up or down when it comes to competitiveness. I'm assuming you are at an MD school because if you were at a DO school you would see we have the same type of gunners you do, and too many.

In the end, a program director wants the most capable and fitting person, which is why the letters (DO or MD) only play a trivial role for many programs. However, as you said, many DO students go with AOA residencies because they don't have the balls to drop out of the AOA match and I don't necessarily blame them since the odds are better there.

This is completely inaccurate and you really need to take a look at the NRMP Program Director's Survey sometime. EM is largely considered DO "friendly" yet 1/3 of Program Directors will NOT interview DO students per this survery of n>100 PDs. That is pretty significant in a DO friendly field.

So, yes, the letters absolutely do play a role and it is indeed not trivial.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

You have some valid points but your conclusion is totally wrong. DO's beat many MD for too many competitive spots to support this claim (derm at mayo, etc). Yes DO students do have lower MCAT scores but among these are still many that score high (33+). Some (like me) apply late in the interview season and not broadly enough, and thus end up at their safety anchor: DO school.

There is no shame in this at all, but 4 years is a looong time for people to move up or down when it comes to competitiveness. I'm assuming you are at an MD school because if you were at a DO school you would see we have the same type of gunners you do, and too many.

In the end, a program director wants the most capable and fitting person, which is why the letters (DO or MD) only play a trivial role for many programs. However, as you said, many DO students go with AOA residencies because they don't have the balls to drop out of the AOA match and I don't necessarily blame them since the odds are better there.

Actually, he/she's correct.

There may be a handful of people in each graduating class at a DO school who muster the credentials to compete with MDs for very competitive residency positions, but this is the exception to the rule. My class just matched - and did pretty respectably, I might add - but the number of people who entered the match with top flight credentials was small (I'd say <10 in a class of about 130). Many, many others had an application that was mediocre at best (no USMLE/weak USMLE score, step 1 with no step 2 score, no letters from big shots, mixed clinical grades, no research, no sub-i [our school doesn't require one], etc). Among people going allo for specialties like IM, many were OK with going to weak local community programs, and thus relatively few of them felt the need to build a truly competitive application. Our previous match lists certainly reflected this ethos.

I'll post our school's list (UMDNJ-SOM) once I have something more definitive. We had a military derm match, AOA neurosurg, a couple AOA ENT, several AOA ortho, and probably a lot more I'm not aware of.

 

[LovelyBRass]

The mentality at DO schools is different than most MD schools. A significant portion of DO students want primary care from day 1. The majority of DOs apply only to AOA programs. Most DOs that do apply to Acgme programs only apply to a handful of local residency programs, many of which are community programs.

Most importantly, however, the majority of DOs are not very competitive applicants (low usmle scores, no research, no letters from big name people). Consequently, most DOs do not qualify for "top" residencies. Then for those DOs that do qualify, most top residencies won't interview DOs, especially the ones in major cities.

It's really hard to look at a DO list and gauge what's going on. The average DO student and the average MD student are not equal, at least on paper. I think people forget this when they are looking at DO match lists. Only 3 people in my class got above a 240 on the usmle. The average board score at Mayo medical school is a 240.

I think DOs that do well or compariable to an average MD student fair roughly the same in the match, except for surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad-onc. I, for example, had a good usmle, good preclinical grades, average clinical grades and no research. I applied to 19 of the "top" 25 programs for anesthiology and I interviewed at 10 of them. I ranked 2 other programs higher than any of those top programs and I matched my #2 choice.

There are simply not many DO students in each class that have an impressive application.

I don't think you're disagreeing with me at all...

Not true at all. Peruse the match list threads in the allopathic forum for the last few years and there are plenty of people saying to look at match lists with a grain of salt. One poster in particular, Law2Doc, always agrees with this notion. This always comes up every year around match time.

Here's an example
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=12125588&postcount=8

The thread the above is from:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=12125588

While I agree there are other factors that influence where we match, students simply don't drop tiers looking for the right "match." While you may think Columbia is a terrible match, your next consideration is going to be Cornell, not St. Luke's.

 

[cliquesh]

You have some valid points but your conclusion is totally wrong. DO's beat many MD for too many competitive spots to support this claim (derm at mayo, etc). Yes DO students do have lower MCAT scores but among these are still many that score high (33+). Some (like me) apply late in the interview season and not broadly enough, and thus end up at their safety anchor: DO school.

There is no shame in this at all, but 4 years is a looong time for people to move up or down when it comes to competitiveness. I'm assuming you are at an MD school because if you were at a DO school you would see we have the same type of gunners you do, and too many.

In the end, a program director wants the most capable and fitting person, which is why the letters (DO or MD) only play a trivial role for many programs. However, as you said, many DO students go with AOA residencies because they don't have the balls to drop out of the AOA match and I don't necessarily blame them since the odds are better there.

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

 

[Dissected]

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

As a 4th year, I agree with both of your posts 100%

 

[docnotsopc]

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

Its interesting that you bring up this ceiling affect. A ton of people in my class always talk about how they are going to try to match at the most prestigious hospitals in the country. I feel like they are living in a fantasy world, and when I politely tell them it might not be possible I get scolded. So Im glad to hear some first hand experience about this.

More importantly, I completely agree with the average DO application not being strong. For example at my school, the research opportunities are very small. A few people were lucky to land research, but the projects are weak to be honest. Also, we dont have a teaching hospital as most DO schools dont (or at least good ones). This means a lot less opportunities in pre-clinical years than most MD schools.

 

[LovelyBRass]

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

I hope you're posting in Pre-Allo.

 

[laconfidential]

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

Yes and yes.

Although I did pretty well on the USMLE, I can't imagine that going an MD school would have changed the outcome. Not enough, at least, to bump me up from mid-tier candidate to top tier. Would I have gotten interviews at some programs that overlooked me? Yeah. In the end, did it matter that much? Nope. This may change if you have a burning desire to live in Boston where the DO degree is considered worthless but otherwise I was able to get interviews in every city I wanted to live in, at university based programs that I was happy with.

It's also easy to snark on some of these lists that have almost every student matching into DO IM or FM (guilty) but for a lot of students that's what they wanted. I have friends who could have matched at really top notch MD places but had zero interest. Flip side is of course there are people who wanted that and didn't get it. The real measure of success in the match is did you get the specialty you want at the place you wanted, but a list alone won't tell you that. And a lot of schools will gloss over people who didn't match-I know of classmates who had to scramble into ortho or ENT and the final list won't reflect that.

 

[MedicineMike]

Don't forget that DO students don't have but a quarter (or less) of the resources available to us vs our MD peers. Most schools (like mine) do not have large academic hospitals attached to them in which we can just find a PD to do research with. We have to try much harder and face more challenges to get on the same level as MD students. Our schools are designed for primary care and to break out of that mold is challenging. It takes a lot of individual effort to get yourself out there bc you're school will not help you at all. Most students (in my class at least) are ok with this bc they just plan on doing primary care.

Let's not forget that connections, nepotism, etc also help a lot of these DOs match into top tier programs! It's much easier when you are a DO student and your father is a cheif of x at a top tier program.

 

[Orthojoe]

I'm a 4th year DO student.

Yes, there are some DOs that do very well in the acgme match. My point, however, is that there isn't many of them.

So the question is why?

When you look at a DO school's match list and it looks like " crap" you have to consider what the applicants are like at DO schools. It's one thing if DO applicants have the same board scores/research/LORs as USMD applicants and the DO applicants are matching at bad programs. It's another thing if the majority of DO applicants have unimpressive applications.

I think the latter is what's going on. There are relatively few DOs that are on par with USMDs (on paper). The DOs that have a pretty typical USMD application (a decent usmle score, like a 225+, some research, and LORs from academic department chairs) do well in the match, and I don't think they do much worse than a USMD in the same position.

DOs with very impressive applications may be hindered by their DO degree, though. You kind of hit a ceiling as a DO in terms matching at top places. Top programs, and a decent number of mid-tier programs, will prefer USMDs over DOs, even if the DO is more qualified. I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from. So I wouldn't say being a DO plays a trival role in the application process. Nevertheless, I don't think being a DO matters that much. At the end of the day, you might not get into mid-tier program A because you're a DO, but you'll get into middle tier program B.

I cannot see the match really going much different for me, even if I went to a USMD school.

I will politely disagree with this post as a fourth year DO student as well. I do not for one bit think my class (AZCOM) was less academically minded than our MD counterpoints. Our USMLE average was in the 220s. yes there are outliers.. but as a whole I feel academically our class was great and on par with MD students.. I rotated with tons of UofA students and in most cases I felt my class were ahead in many fields. But I will point out my results are from a N of 1, so maybe my class was just different

Getting letters from "top" physicans often is related to the relationships your school has with local hospitals/universities. Most MD schools are closely affiliated with research institutes that are breeding grounds for top names. I do not consider this a sign of a good student. I have MD friend with huge name LOR but scored in 2 teen range on USMLE..

The same goes for "top" tier residencies. I would beg the question of what are the qualifications and qualities that make a good residency program? There are no studies ranking physician's abilities coming out of residency programs, just namesake due to research funding, salaries and fellowship placement. This can easily be explained by relationships and academia. we have no way of delineating physician skill. For example one program i interviewed at had one of the highest fellowship placements in ortho out there. However the seniors were poor surgeons compared to others I rotated through.

I was very unimpressed with Mayo ortho when I rotated there. Some of the biggest names in ortho claim shop there, however again the residents had poor surgical skills but killer research credentials and board scores and talked academia like no other. I interviewed there but decided it was not for me. I want to be a surgeon.

I believe there are small residency programs that develop amazing physicians that dont get name recognition out there.

So the only comparison I think we can accurately make is by USMLE scores because it takes away bias and affiliation. I will recognize that DO scores are on average lower than MD counterpart -but is this because from day one they are being trained for the USMLE?? who knows.

But I dont think DOs medical students "credentials" are inferior in any way. It comes down to a history of bias (ie LA hosptials refusing to take DO students, I could name about 15 other programs as well) and misunderstanding when comparing residency spots.

yes as a DO student we are limited in "top tier" programs unless you have some connections. We have an MD ortho match this year.. he knew that was where he was going from day one. I believe the DO ortho program I matched to will train me better in surgical skill as I will be operating from day one.

 

[BrakngLyv]

The mentality at DO schools is different than most MD schools. A significant portion of DO students want primary care from day 1. The majority of DOs apply only to AOA programs. Most DOs that do apply to Acgme programs only apply to a handful of local residency programs, many of which are community programs.

Most importantly, however, the majority of DOs are not very competitive applicants (low usmle scores, no research, no letters from big name people). Consequently, most DOs do not qualify for "top" residencies. Then for those DOs that do qualify, most top residencies won't interview DOs, especially the ones in major cities.

It's really hard to look at a DO list and gauge what's going on. The average DO student and the average MD student are not equal, at least on paper. I think people forget this when they are looking at DO match lists. Only 3 people in my class got above a 240 on the usmle. The average board score at Mayo medical school is a 240.

I think DOs that do well or compariable to an average MD student fair roughly the same in the match, except for surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad-onc. I, for example, had a good usmle, good preclinical grades, average clinical grades and no research. I applied to 19 of the "top" 25 programs for anesthiology and I interviewed at 10 of them. I ranked 2 other programs higher than any of those top programs and I matched my #2 choice.

There are simply not many DO students in each class that have an impressive application.

Here are the numbers according to NMS in 2013 from all schools:
AOA Match: 47.6% of students
Military Match: 5.4%
'Non-participants in AOA match': 47%

You'd have to think most of those non-participants participated in the ACGME match. These numbers vary considerably between schools.

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013sklstats.html

While it may be true the majority of DO students do not participate in the ACGME match, it's not the overwhelming majority by any means.

I have multiple friends and acquaintances who matched ACGME this year--20-30?? All of them applied ACGME only, and spread applications out all over the country, most of them at university programs. In my experience, it's simply not true that "most" DO students apply to a handful of local, community programs. This strategy would make little sense and have low yield.

 

[Deceptacon]

I will politely disagree with this post as a fourth year DO student as well. I do not for one bit think my class (AZCOM) was less academically minded than our MD counterpoints. Our USMLE average was in the 220s. yes there are outliers.. but as a whole I feel academically our class was great and on par with MD students.. I rotated with tons of UofA students and in most cases I felt my class were ahead in many fields. But I will point out my results are from a N of 1, so maybe my class was just different

Getting letters from "top" physicans often is related to the relationships your school has with local hospitals/universities. Most MD schools are closely affiliated with research institutes that are breeding grounds for top names. I do not consider this a sign of a good student. I have MD friend with huge name LOR but scored in 2 teen range on USMLE..

The same goes for "top" tier residencies. I would beg the question of what are the qualifications and qualities that make a good residency program? There are no studies ranking physician's abilities coming out of residency programs, just namesake due to research funding, salaries and fellowship placement. This can easily be explained by relationships and academia. we have no way of delineating physician skill. For example one program i interviewed at had one of the highest fellowship placements in ortho out there. However the seniors were poor surgeons compared to others I rotated through.

I was very unimpressed with Mayo ortho when I rotated there. Some of the biggest names in ortho claim shop there, however again the residents had poor surgical skills but killer research credentials and board scores and talked academia like no other. I interviewed there but decided it was not for me. I want to be a surgeon.

I believe there are small residency programs that develop amazing physicians that dont get name recognition out there.

So the only comparison I think we can accurately make is by USMLE scores because it takes away bias and affiliation. I will recognize that DO scores are on average lower than MD counterpart -but is this because from day one they are being trained for the USMLE?? who knows.

But I dont think DOs medical students "credentials" are inferior in any way. It comes down to a history of bias (ie LA hosptials refusing to take DO students, I could name about 15 other programs as well) and misunderstanding when comparing residency spots.

yes as a DO student we are limited in "top tier" programs unless you have some connections. We have an MD ortho match this year.. he knew that was where he was going from day one. I believe the DO ortho program I matched to will train me better in surgical skill as I will be operating from day one.

it sounds like rationalization to me, i think the average md student is just smarter than the average do student. this isn't a personal insult, it's just probably the truth.

 

[valkener]

I interviewed at one state program where my usmle board score was 20 to 35 higher than the people I was interviewing with and some of these USMDs were interviewing at some "top" places that I was instantly rejected from.

How do you know the average score of the people who applied at certain programs? Were they self-reported? I wouldn't trust that.

 

[user3]

it sounds like rationalization to me, i think the average md student is just smarter than the average do student. this isn't a personal insult, it's just probably the truth.

I guess this is going to start an argument about how GPA's/MCAT's mean zilch when it comes to performance in med school...

 

[malformation]

The mentality at DO schools is different than most MD schools. A significant portion of DO students want primary care from day 1. The majority of DOs apply only to AOA programs. Most DOs that do apply to Acgme programs only apply to a handful of local residency programs, many of which are community programs.

Most importantly, however, the majority of DOs are not very competitive applicants (low usmle scores, no research, no letters from big name people). Consequently, most DOs do not qualify for "top" residencies. Then for those DOs that do qualify, most top residencies won't interview DOs, especially the ones in major cities.

It's really hard to look at a DO list and gauge what's going on. The average DO student and the average MD student are not equal, at least on paper. I think people forget this when they are looking at DO match lists. Only 3 people in my class got above a 240 on the usmle. The average board score at Mayo medical school is a 240.

I think DOs that do well or compariable to an average MD student fair roughly the same in the match, except for surgical subspecalties, derm, and rad-onc. I, for example, had a good usmle, good preclinical grades, average clinical grades and no research. I applied to 19 of the "top" 25 programs for anesthiology and I interviewed at 10 of them. I ranked 2 other programs higher than any of those top programs and I matched my #2 choice.

There are simply not many DO students in each class that have an impressive application.

The problem with your post and most other posts on SDN is that MD automatically equals some big name/ivy league program. You can't compare any DO school with those programs where a good portion of their student body enters with advance degrees/research/etc. The concept of an "average MD" student is also an oxymoron when there is such a huge variation in the admission stats based on school tier (MCAT in high 30s at some schools down to mid-high 20s at others).

You should compare established DO schools w/ bottom tier MD schools where there is a better correlation between their students. If you do that, then you'll realize that there is not much of a difference in the outcomes. Yes, if you are top 10-20% at those low-tier MD schools, you may have better outcome, especially if you are shooting for surgical subspeciality, but for the majority of graduates, it makes very little difference (as you suspect was the case in your situation).

Congrats on matching!

 

[KGflyboy]

I don't have personal experience, but based on the info I see online, the percentage of DO students matching into ACGME residiencies varies greatly by school. Some people were quick to point out that most DO students participate in the AOA match. However, at KCUMB, the statistics show 60% match ACGME, only 35% match AOA, and 5% match in dually accredited programs. I guess the stigma or misconception that most DOs are limited to AOA residencies is either false or only applicable to certain schools. I know that it is really hard for a DO student from KCUMB to match into certain specialties at ACGME programs, but I wanted to point out that most at this particular school go to ACGME programs, and yes, several of them even match into the "competitive" ACGME specialties.

 

[deleted245139]

In that case, DO students don't seem to click very well with top programs. Has anyone ever noticed that the only lists people say to take with a grain of salt are DO ones?

You miss my point...
I'm telling younger students in the process to be aware that name isn't everything... Yes, it's a big part, bit fit trumps it IMHO. Ask attendings their feelings... Just like medical students laugh at the silly things premeds get hung up on, and the way residents laugh at the things medical students get hung up on, attendings do the same. It's only retrospectively that you're ever going to have that 20/20 vision... It's called maturity. It comes with age and experience. So that is why I offered up taking these lists with a grain of salt... Because like every "top tier residency program" thread, it's mostly opinion and conjecture with some truth sprinkled in.

 

[Spikebd]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

This little gem has a lot of info. Looks like surgery programs are the most discriminatory towards DO's. Rad Onc is plenty accepting of DO's. So is Diagnostic Radiology. Even plastic surgery seemed OK compared to ortho, ENT, and Derm.

 

[hallowmann]

You saw that too. Its a good school (like most), I just don't know that I could call both the area and school "the best." Maybe for some people.

...or they go to a northern school and have nothing to do with free time because it's freezing outside on the 'spring' equinox.

I know, right? Its freezing, and almost April.

Yeah, it looks like quite a few were.

Anyway, AZCOM's class size is about 250/year.

I saw 8 repeats. That's not very much, especially in a list of 210. Its understandable that some people accidentally or forgetfully filled out the form twice.

The problem with your post and most other posts on SDN is that MD automatically equals some big name/ivy league program. You can't compare any DO school with those programs where a good portion of their student body enters with advance degrees/research/etc. The concept of an "average MD" student is also an oxymoron when there is such a huge variation in the admission stats based on school tier (MCAT in high 30s at some schools down to mid-high 20s at others).

You should compare established DO schools w/ bottom tier MD schools where there is a better correlation between their students. If you do that, then you'll realize that there is not much of a difference in the outcomes. Yes, if you are top 10-20% at those low-tier MD schools, you may have better outcome, especially if you are shooting for surgical subspeciality, but for the majority of graduates, it makes very little difference (as you suspect was the case in your situation).

Congrats on matching!

Yeah, this is true, at least based on what I've seen in match data. Lower tier MD schools have very similar match results as average DO schools.

 

[darkfrontier]

not sure if you are intentionally or unintentionally misrepresenting these programs but St. Luke's and Maimonides are very loosely affiliated with those parent institutions and are in no way prestigious matches. In the case of St Luke's IM, the program is filled with low-ranked US MDs, DOs and FMGs.

this is exactly why carib schools and some/most DO schools list their matches in this deceptive way ....makes them sound better than they actually are

Cannot agree with these statements more. How can anyone look at they way these matches are labeled and not think they're misleading. St. Luke's is NOT Columbia and Maimonides is NOT Mt. Sinai. To claim that you trained at these places to colleagues, patients, etc. is fraudulent.

This futile MD vs DO comparison needs to end. If you graduate from your residency and are a competent physician, no one will care. Just be genuine and represent yourself truthfully.

I seriously urge any pre-medical students reading this to do your due diligence when evaluating any match list from a DO or (especially) Caribbean school. It's sad that these and other practices exist to hoodwink hopeful future physicians into mortgaging their futures away with increasingly little hope of dividends because of the ever tightening match market.

 

[cliquesh]

How do you know the average score of the people who applied at certain programs? Were they self-reported? I wouldn't trust that.

The applicants themselves told me.

 

[Dharma]

SDN's favorite topic... mmm....

 

[mbe36]

NYCOM has had some great matches this year, very proud of my classmates. The official list won't be out for awhile but this is what I have gathered:

IM- Stonybrook, UCONN, Lennox Hill, Temple, NUMC, Georgetown, Pitt, Jacobi/Montefiore, SIUH, UMDNJ-Newark
Psych- Stonybrook, Westchester, Lutheran General (chicago), Drexel
EM- DO- Barnabas, Saint Joe's, Good Sam, Newark Beth Israel, Kent, St Luke's MD- UMDNJ-RWJ, NY Hosp Queens, Hackensack, Beth Israel NYC, UC Davis, U of Buffalo
Peds- Maria Fareri (Westchester), Winthrop, UCONN, Maimonides
Surgery- Lutheran, Saint Joe's
Urology- Albert Einstein Philly
Optho- NY presbyterian
Anesthesia- UCONN, St Luke's Roosevelt, Westchester, Downstate, Rochester, U. Penn
Family- Beth Israel NYC, Ellis, NSLIJ-Plainview, Wilson, Lutheran
Ob/gyn- Jersey City, Baystate, Saint Joe's, Sister's, Geisenger
Radiology- Morristown, North Shore University Hospital
Neurology- U. Maryland, North Shore-LIJ
PMnR- NYU, NUMC
Pathology-Winthrop
Ortho- Plainview

There's definitely a million more amazing matches. Congrats to everyone!

There was also Yale for Psych and atleast 2 ACGME Gen Surg that I know of. Def a solid NYCOM showing this year!

 

[calvinhobbes]

Cannot agree with these statements more. How can anyone look at they way these matches are labeled and not think they're misleading. St. Luke's is NOT Columbia and Maimonides is NOT Mt. Sinai. To claim that you trained at these places to colleagues, patients, etc. is fraudulent.

This futile MD vs DO comparison needs to end. If you graduate from your residency and are a competent physician, no one will care. Just be genuine and represent yourself truthfully.

I seriously urge any pre-medical students reading this to do your due diligence when evaluating any match list from a DO or (especially) Caribbean school. It's sad that these and other practices exist to hoodwink hopeful future physicians into mortgaging their futures away with increasingly little hope of dividends because of the ever tightening match market.

Just to be clear, I def. didn't intend to mislead anyone; I was just stating what I was told, was that St. Luke's Roosevelt "belongs" to Mt. Sinai b/c of the recent merger and that Maimonides is now an official academic campus of Einstein: (http://www.maimonidesmed.org/Main/News/Maimonides-Einstein-College-of-Medicine-and-Montef-633.aspx and http://www.einstein.yu.edu/news/rel...-advance-education-research-and-patient-care/)

my friend that matched Anesthesia there told me that her PD said that there would be shared faculty appointments, residency program linkages, etc. Again, I never meant to hoodwink anyone, sorry if that is how it came across, was just excited to share good news. Good day!

 

[SilverCat]

Does anyone have CCOM's match list?

 

[docnotsopc]

did not realize that St Lukes Roosevelt was not associated with Columbia. Even if its associated with Mt Sinai, thats still good

 

[235009]

did not realize that St Lukes Roosevelt was not associated with Columbia. Even if its associated with Mt Sinai, thats still good

the point is that it's not actually associated with either.

 

[username456789]

the point is that it's not actually associated with either.

Bingo.

 

[MedicineMike]

the point is that it's not actually associated with either.

Who cares? It's still an excellent hospital

 

[ajndersn]

Any more?

 

[docnotsopc]

Who cares? It's still an excellent hospital

My thoughts exactly. I was trying to see where they were going with this? Other than people claiming St Lukes was a Columbia hospital (or Mt Sinai) being the worst thing to happen since the plague

 

[superfan56]

These matches really are so trivial. If you think a school has any part in the match you're fooling yourself. DO matches into any residency is due to the hard work of the individual. What's more arbitrary is what a "top tier" program is. Sure there are junk programs, but if you think you learn medicine by name and diffusion alone, you guys are ****ting yourselves.

 

[MedicineMike]

My thoughts exactly. I was trying to see where they were going with this? Other than people claiming St Lukes was a Columbia hospital (or Mt Sinai) being the worst thing to happen since the plague

same here. I really don't care if it is under the Columbia or Sinai name. It is still a great hospital nonetheless

 

[BabyDoc86]

These matches really are so trivial. If you think a school has any part in the match you're fooling yourself. DO matches into any residency is due to the hard work of the individual. What's more arbitrary is what a "top tier" program is. Sure there are junk programs, but if you think you learn medicine by name and diffusion alone, you guys are ****ting yourselves.

 

[DubVille]

here

 

[Tizoc]

For the more visually inclined, AZCOM does its Google Map of residencies again. Here's 2013:

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?vps...d=204556364691725990633.0004d6f81fe92abe28175

 

[se20001984]

just a crazy thought

you guys think that eventually as DOs continue to grow and gain recognition
it will FORCE top programs to take DOs

not because of their training but to actually have a DO on board...like to fill a quota


sort of like having URM at the school..to have representation

 

[Grey Wind]

just a crazy thought

you guys think that eventually as DOs continue to grow and gain recognition
it will FORCE top programs to take DOs

not because of their training but to actually have a DO on board...like to fill a quota


sort of like having URM at the school..to have representation

no

 

[MedMike]

Anyone have NSU's match for this year?

 

[Star2285]

NYCOM- categorical surgery at Einstein/Montefire, Cornell Optho, Cornell Path, UPenn anesthsia, 7 internal medicine at lenox hill, at least one internal medicine at Dartmouth. Those are the best I know off of the top of my head. Pretty impressive in my opinion.

 

[batndz]

Anyone have PCOM's match list?

 

[docnotsopc]

just a crazy thought

you guys think that eventually as DOs continue to grow and gain recognition
it will FORCE top programs to take DOs

not because of their training but to actually have a DO on board...like to fill a quota


sort of like having URM at the school..to have representation

Absolutely not. Are they forced to take low tier MDs and a few caribbean students too?

Not to mention, it would be utterly pathetic to get into a top tier MD program for being a degree minority in the medical world. Would you want to be there knowing you didn't really earn it? It would make MDs even more bitter towards DOs

 

[SilverCat]

This may be unrelated, but it looks like, while some top MD residencies refuse to accept DO candidates, they're perfectly willing to take students from low tier MD schools like Meharry, which has an accepted student profile with the same GPA and MCAT scores that DO schools have.

I'm just a pre-med, and fairly ignorant about these things, but it looks like, as MD schools become more competitive, more applicants will turn to DO schools, whose accepted GPA and MCAT scores will consequently rise. With an increasing number of high-achieving DO students, more will be able to break into top MD residency programs, and hopefully, the DO- bias will diminish.