Matching Radiology as a DO

[hfiso]

Hi all,
Just looking for some feedback from DOs who have matched radiology or anyone who is knowledgeable on the topic.

I'm in a research club, trying to build up the resume, but nothing to speak of yet. How important is research?
USMLE mandatory or do plenty match with COMLEX alone?
How many radiology electives did you do or are recommended?

overall, doing really well in school as a first year student, but looking for ways to stand out since step 1 and complex 1 are going pass/fail.
-also would like to end up on the east coast (preferably southeast). If that adds any pros/cons that would be helpful to know

Thanks!

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[km93]

research not important for rads. having case reports in rads can help demonstrate interest. previously, usmle scores were very important. it's hard to say going forward with P/F. MS1/2 grades also not really important. my class rank did not factor in pre-clinical grades at all. that said - doing well in preclinicals can only help you for boards. in regards to auditions/radiology electives, quantity is not important. unlike other specialties where auditions are critical for matching, multiple radiology electives are not necessary. it is much harder to shine or demonstrate your work ethic on a radiology rotation compared to a medicine/surgery audition. that said, you'll need at least one radiology elective and one radiology letter. ideally, you would apply with 2 clinical letters (medicine/peds/surg/ob) and 1 radiology letter. because radiology electives are generally chill for students, i was cautioned against scheduling a bunch early MS4 year by a mentor because it can come across as lazy.

I matched academic DR as a DO, did one two week elective during MS3 and one 4 week audition MS4 prior to applying. feel free to dm if you have questions

 

[calivianya]

I can’t 100% speak to this yet as I’m in the process of applying rads, but I would say I have had a successful interview season so far with a good number of IR and DR interviews.

USMLE is absolutely mandatory IMO as most DR programs are historically MD programs and likely won’t bother figuring out how good your level 2 score is. A couple of my interviewers have described DR as like taking a test with every study they read, so I can’t imagine they’re going to move away from looking at your step 2 score any time soon. So study hard for step 1 so you have a strong foundation, and study even harder for step 2 just in case.

Frontloading M4 with rads has not made a difference for me. I did not have any opportunity to do rads during third year, so I completed 1 DR general, 1 DR subspecialty, and 1 IR rotation as my first three rotations of M4. It’s very important to do both DR and IR before apps go out if you think you might apply IR. Why you want to do IR as opposed to DR, and what % of each would you like to do in your future practice, came up in multiple IR interviews for me.

Do some research, but don’t worry too much about it. I have two case presentations and some other experiences that did not generate pubs or posters, and I have still gotten interviews.

 

[Neopolymath]

Everyone should take the USMLE and that includes you. Study for it and take it. Everything else is easy when it comes to applying to radiology. You received solid advice already.

 

[risus_sardonicus]

Single most important factor: USMLE scores. Bad scores as a DO? Pretty much ruins all chances.

 

[hfiso]

Single most important factor: USMLE scores. Bad scores as a DO? Pretty much ruins all chances.

understood. But, step 1 and comlex going to pass/fail---only thing that would matter is step2?

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Single most important factor: USMLE scores. Bad scores as a DO? Pretty much ruins all chances.

Bad score as any type of applicant would ruin your chances, Rads has gotten more competitive and you would need 230+ steps in order to have a chance, unless you audition at a former aoa program and impress I guess.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Bad score as any type of applicant would ruin your chances, Rads has gotten more competitive and you would need 230+ steps in order to have a chance, unless you audition at a former aoa program and impress I guess.

rads notoriously has higher step avgs. Id say 240+ step 1 and 250+ step 2 give you a great shot as a DO. 230s isnt a deal breaker but id def shoot for thos numbers as most of the people on here in my year applying now had 24x/25x have done great with interviews so far

 

[Ho0v-man]

I think the advice given is pretty good thus far based on my experience last year.

However, the next Charting outcomes may reveal that this is all wrong. Virtual interviews as well maybe just overall competitiveness have really made rads competitiveness hard to assess.

Anecdotally, I know a DO who matched rads in 2019 with a <200 step1. He got 10 interviews. A couple of which were academic centers. Matched pretty well all things considered. Now seeing the problems applicants in the 220s-230s are having, I doubt he’d get an interview.

The fact that step1 is going p/f will likely hurt DOs. You should still take it.

TLDR; the advice in this thread is great based on the data we have available, but the charting outcomes may prove us all wrong.

 

[thekitchensink]

rads notoriously has higher step avgs. Id say 240+ step 1 and 250+ step 2 give you a great shot as a DO. 230s isnt a deal breaker but id def shoot for thos numbers as most of the people on here in my year applying now had 24x/25x have done great with interviews so far

How heavily does rads view step 2?

 

[Deecee2DO]

How heavily does rads view step 2?

I didnt apply rads but from what I know yes!

 

[km93]

I would never tell a DO they can't match radiology with a 210s/220s step 1. It can and has been done every year. Check charting outcomes. It's easier to advise the students who score higher on step 1, but plenty have matched rads without stellar step 1 scores. In those cases, it comes down to some X factor - auditions, good mentors, applying broadly, and redeeming themself on step 2. Of note, the reason step 1 scores were historically weighted so highly for rads is due to their correlation to passing/failing the notoriously difficult radiology board certification exam, the CORE. Falling in the lowest third of usmle step 1 score is associated with a significantly higher rate of CORE failure.

 

[km93]

If there is a certain program/city one is trying to match, is doing an audition there the best way to maximize chances? Are there any other ways to boost chances at specific programs?

Unfortunately, I don’t have a blanket answer to this question. Certain programs tend to favor rotators. Most of us match at programs we never rotated at.

I know of multiple students who networked via Twitter and found mentors and research projects that way. That’s one way to get on a programs radar. If you do an audition at a dream/reach program, make sure to ask to schedule a one on one meeting with the PD. They usually have academic time. No one does this and it’s a great opportunity every rotator has to make an impression on the person who has the most influence on your application.

 

[scoopdaboop]

research not important for rads. having case reports in rads can help demonstrate interest. previously, usmle scores were very important. it's hard to say going forward with P/F. MS1/2 grades also not really important. my class rank did not factor in pre-clinical grades at all. that said - doing well in preclinicals can only help you for boards. in regards to auditions/radiology electives, quantity is not important. unlike other specialties where auditions are critical for matching, multiple radiology electives are not necessary. it is much harder to shine or demonstrate your work ethic on a radiology rotation compared to a medicine/surgery audition. that said, you'll need at least one radiology elective and one radiology letter. ideally, you would apply with 2 clinical letters (medicine/peds/surg/ob) and 1 radiology letter. because radiology electives are generally chill for students, i was cautioned against scheduling a bunch early MS4 year by a mentor because it can come across as lazy.

I matched academic DR as a DO, did one two week elective during MS3 and one 4 week audition MS4 prior to applying. feel free to dm if you have questions

What year did you match?

 

[km93]

What year did you match?

2021

 

[Steve_Zissou]

This year seems particularly brutal. I know people who are near top/top of my class applying DR that have <10 DR interviews. I have a feeling that connections, location and research are going to make a big difference in the coming years if this trend continues.

I also have a buddy applying with 210s/220s and he has one interview, so I would definitely steer low scorers away.

 

[RageQuitter34]

@Steve_Zissou How has your interview yield and tiers of your invites turned out so far. Currently an MS3 so trying to see how competitive this cycle has been. Also was taking a look at the DR spreadsheet and was surprised how many high stat DOs with all the check boxes getting <10 IIs.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Do radiology programs send II's in December and January? Way to many USMD and DO's with high stats with less IV's according to the spreadsheet

 

[Neopolymath]

Do radiology programs send II's in December and January? Way to many USMD and DO's with high stats with less IV's according to the spreadsheet

They do but not as much. There used to be waves in rads and the past couple years it's trickle after initial wave.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

@Steve_Zissou How has your interview yield and tiers of your invites turned out so far. Currently an MS3 so trying to see how competitive this cycle has been. Also was taking a look at the DR spreadsheet and was surprised how many high stat DOs with all the check boxes getting <10 IIs.

Currently at <10 but a mix of high, middle and low tier. Multiple top level invites but mostly from networking and a letter I got from very well known radiologist. Significantly less than I anticipated and I had the highest stats (AFAIK) from my school. The others with high stats that applied have 8 and 7 DR each. One with low stats has 1 invite. Rough year for DOs.

 

[RageQuitter34]

Currently at <10 but a mix of high, middle and low tier. Multiple top level invites but mostly from networking and a letter I got from very well known radiologist. Significantly less than I anticipated and I had the highest stats (AFAIK) from my school. The others with high stats that applied have 8 and 7 DR each. One with low stats has 1 invite. Rough year for DOs.

Honestly insane how it's gotten so much more competitive this year. Assuming that it is due to interview hoarding though I would think ya'll should match fine since they can match at only one place. Wishing the best of luck and hope the match treats all of ya'll well!

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Honestly insane how it's gotten so much more competitive this year. Assuming that it is due to interview hoarding though I would think ya'll should match fine since they can match at only one place. Wishing the best of luck and hope the match treats all of ya'll well!

Really really hope interviews go back to being in person next year. It's just ridiculous that people who aren't really interested in programs just taking up spots for fun... if they had to fly they wouldn't do it.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I was on a community program interview last year with a guy from Stanford. I’d be very surprised if he even ranked it.

But then everyone was like “No OnE’s HoArDiNg InTeRvIeWs!”. Pfft!

 

[kuzy]

Well this thread is terrifying for someone who is planning on applying to rads next year 😳

 

[Neopolymath]

I was on a community program interview last year with a guy from Stanford. I’d be very surprised if he even ranked it.

But then everyone was like “No OnE’s HoArDiNg InTeRvIeWs!”. Pfft!

Yep... I posted this before but I was at a no-name program near me with a T5 med school applicant from the other side of the country with no ties to the region and acted completely disinterested for the meet and greet and the interview day stuff. Someone who didn't match or someone who was trying to stay in the area lost an opportunity for a guy who was staring at his phone and acting like they would rather be anywhere else. It was just disappointing behavior regardless of whether or not I think the person was entitled to the interview (I do think so).

 

[Steve_Zissou]

I was on a community program interview last year with a guy from Stanford. I’d be very surprised if he even ranked it.

But then everyone was like “No OnE’s HoArDiNg InTeRvIeWs!”. Pfft!

I had a strong disagreement with multiple people about this on the general panic thread. Lots of people see no issue with going on as many interviews as you want, even in the extreme cases of people going to 40+. Hoarding hurts the majority but may help the individual. They really need to find a solution.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Honestly insane how it's gotten so much more competitive this year. Assuming that it is due to interview hoarding though I would think ya'll should match fine since they can match at only one place. Wishing the best of luck and hope the match treats all of ya'll well!

I’ll report back in March for sure. I feel pretty strong about my invites so far. I have what is likely an above average application (for both MD and DO due to stats and first author pubs), a unique background/life experiences, and I’ve spent a lot of time polishing my interviewing skills. I’ve gotten good feedback from many interviewers, but I know that doesn’t mean anything. Gonna be real disappointed if match day comes and I’m left hanging.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I'm not sure rads will be as competitive in the coming years. Our local Uni , which is like top 20 matched 2 in DR last year. Rads has changed with big staffing shortages due to retirements, Covid and lifestyle. It's like assembly line now. Sit in one spot for 8 or 9 hrs a day. Our area can't recruit due to low reimbursement in the Mid Atlantic.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm not sure rads will be as competitive in the coming years. Our local Uni , which is like top 20 matched 2 in DR last year. Rads has changed with big staffing shortages due to retirements, Covid and lifestyle. It's like assembly line now. Sit in one spot for 8 or 9 hrs a day. Our area can't recruit due to low reimbursement in the Mid Atlantic.

If it means never trying to convince someone to get vaccinated again, I’ll happily deal with being in an assembly line.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I’ll report back in March for sure. I feel pretty strong about my invites so far. I have what is likely an above average application (for both MD and DO due to stats and first author pubs), a unique background/life experiences, and I’ve spent a lot of time polishing my interviewing skills. I’ve gotten good feedback from many interviewers, but I know that doesn’t mean anything. Gonna be real disappointed if match day comes and I’m left hanging.

What kind of feedback are you getting? I am interviewing for IM and I don't really know what constitutes a good interview haha

 

[Steve_Zissou]

What kind of feedback are you getting? I am interviewing for IM and I don't really know what constitutes a good interview haha

So far I’ve gotten “your personal statement is one of th best I’ve read” and lots of “I think you would be a great fit for our program,” one or two “I hope you choose to come to our program next year,” and a couple that were very personalized “I’m very impressed with X, Y, and Z. I think you would find your place here working with so and so.”

Like I said, I always take it with a pound of salt. Until Match day, it’s all meaningless pleasantries. It does feel good to hear though, and I feel it makes me interview better because I feel more comfortable and confident.

 

[thekitchensink]

Well this thread is terrifying for someone who is planning on applying to rads next year 😳

Yeah especially when you stumble upon this after getting wrecked by a UW block

 

[calivianya]

Honestly insane how it's gotten so much more competitive this year. Assuming that it is due to interview hoarding though I would think ya'll should match fine since they can match at only one place. Wishing the best of luck and hope the match treats all of ya'll well!

I honestly don't think it's due to interview hoarding.

Are there some people that hoard? Probably. But when you look at the NRMP main residency match data for 2021, people hoarding (or not) doesn't change the fact that if you look at pages 2-3 for DR, there were 122 PGY1 spots and 986 PGY2 spots for a total of 1108 spots, for 1657 total applicants under PGY2 DR.

That puts raw numbers at a 66.8% match rate no matter how you slice it. Just because of the numbers, roughly 1/3 of the DR applicant pool didn't get DR last year. In a smaller pool of both programs and applicants like radiology compared to IM or another large specialty, where the stats are high in the first place and it's pretty well known that programs send interview invites based mostly on stats, I don't think putting caps/preventing hoarding in rads is going to do anything but shuffle the lower stat applicants that were already less likely to match around just a little bit tbh.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I honestly don't think it's due to interview hoarding.

Are there some people that hoard? Probably. But when you look at the NRMP main residency match data for 2021, people hoarding (or not) doesn't change the fact that if you look at pages 2-3 for DR, there were 122 PGY1 spots and 986 PGY2 spots for a total of 1108 spots, for 1657 total applicants under PGY2 DR.

That puts raw numbers at a 66.8% match rate no matter how you slice it. Just because of the numbers, roughly 1/3 of the DR applicant pool didn't get DR last year. In a smaller pool of both programs and applicants like radiology compared to IM or another large specialty, where the stats are high in the first place and it's pretty well known that programs send interview invites based mostly on stats, I don't think putting caps/preventing hoarding in rads is going to do anything but shuffle the lower stat applicants that were already less likely to match around just a little bit tbh.

How many of those 500 people were using rads as a back up tho? It is getting more competitive but a lot of those 500 prbly didn't rank Rads as an only choice or first choice.

 

[scoopdaboop]

Currently at <10 but a mix of high, middle and low tier. Multiple top level invites but mostly from networking and a letter I got from very well known radiologist. Significantly less than I anticipated and I had the highest stats (AFAIK) from my school. The others with high stats that applied have 8 and 7 DR each. One with low stats has 1 invite. Rough year for DOs.

whats your step ? 24x or 25x?

 

[Steve_Zissou]

Are most of your invites regional, or do you have a good spread?

Not real regional for me. pretty evenly split between west coast, midwest, and north east. That being said, one of my classmates, the one who only has 7, got invites only to Chicago and the surrounding areas. He has deep ties there (growing up, working, family), but not anywhere near our school.

 

[Steve_Zissou]

whats your step ? 24x or 25x?

249 step 1, 25x step 2. Don't think this held me back at all.

 

[ontiquicuo]

How many of those 500 people were using rads as a back up tho? It is getting more competitive but a lot of those 500 prbly didn't rank Rads as an only choice or first choice.

Charting Outcomes uses the applicant's preferred specialty which they define as the first ranked.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

249 step 1, 25x step 2. Don't think this held me back at all.

It wont.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

Charting Outcomes uses the applicant's preferred specialty which they define as the first ranked.

Yes and they will be out In 2022. This raw data doesn't specify the applicants based on first or only choice specialty.

 

[calivianya]

How many of those 500 people were using rads as a back up tho? It is getting more competitive but a lot of those 500 prbly didn't rank Rads as an only choice or first choice.

I suspect this may matter less than what scores the people had, still. If they got their first choice specialty, great - less competition for the rest of us. If they were applying something like vascular/plastics/ortho/whatever and had higher stats than many rads applicants, but did at least one rads rotations and had a rads letter, I imagine they would have had no problems matching rads over lower stat people just applying rads.

Having a good dual app definitely isn’t as hard as I’ve seen people talk about on here. The biggest hurdle is getting two sets of letters, but that should be perfectly doable if you start getting letters during third year.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I suspect this may matter less than what scores the people had, still. If they got their first choice specialty, great - less competition for the rest of us. If they were applying something like vascular/plastics/ortho/whatever and had higher stats than many rads applicants, but did at least one rads rotations and had a rads letter, I imagine they would have had no problems matching rads over lower stat people just applying rads.

Having a good dual app definitely isn’t as hard as I’ve seen people talk about on here. The biggest hurdle is getting two sets of letters, but that should be perfectly doable if you start getting letters during third year.

Rads is a common back up for anything surgical including general surgery. Thus the huge disparity between spots and total applicants. It's getting competitive the past few years put 2020 charting outcomes but DO rads match rate for first/only specialty choice at 90%. You'd be surprised how many high stats applicants who are applying anything surgical (even Gen surgery) are applying to rads/gas as a back up.. many get a rads/Anesthesia letter for dual applying. The rest of the letters can be used for both specialties they are applying to.

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I suspect this may matter less than what scores the people had, still. If they got their first choice specialty, great - less competition for the rest of us. If they were applying something like vascular/plastics/ortho/whatever and had higher stats than many rads applicants, but did at least one rads rotations and had a rads letter, I imagine they would have had no problems matching rads over lower stat people just applying rads.

Having a good dual app definitely isn’t as hard as I’ve seen people talk about on here. The biggest hurdle is getting two sets of letters, but that should be perfectly doable if you start getting letters during third year.

I think your misunderstanding the data based on the first part of the post. The data doesn't delineate if someone matched something else if rads was a back up. The 1657 total rads applicants includes everyone who applied rads even those who ranked all their rads programs very low on their list after another specialty. So around 500 people didn't match rads at all, many of those are people who matched thier #1 specialty most likely and then obviously there are people among those 500 who didn't match rads or anything. The charting outcomes gives a better picture.

 

[calivianya]

I think your misunderstanding the data based on the first part of the post. The data doesn't delineate if someone matched something else if rads was a back up. The 1657 total rads applicants includes everyone who applied rads even those who ranked all their rads programs very low on their list after another specialty. So around 500 people didn't match rads at all, many of those are people who matched thier #1 specialty most likely and then obviously there are people among those 500 who didn't match rads or anything. The charting outcomes gives a better picture.

I do get what you’re saying.

Rads is different enough than a lot of the more competitive specialties that I just don’t know anyone using rads as a backup. I’m sure people do, but I wonder how common it really is.

The people I know going for ortho, as an example, have gen surg and anesthesia backups. I also know several “ortho or reapply ortho next year” type people. Are there some people applying rads as a backup? Statistically speaking, I’m sure there are, but I’ve never met one. Probably some of them match rads.

But you’re right that it’s very difficult to say what these numbers really look like until we see a charting outcomes.

 

[hfiso]

I do get what you’re saying.

Rads is different enough than a lot of the more competitive specialties that I just don’t know anyone using rads as a backup. I’m sure people do, but I wonder how common it really is.

The people I know going for ortho, as an example, have gen surg and anesthesia backups. I also know several “ortho or reapply ortho next year” type people. Are there some people applying rads as a backup? Statistically speaking, I’m sure there are, but I’ve never met one. Probably some of them match rads.

But you’re right that it’s very difficult to say what these numbers really look like until we see a charting outcomes.

Well also to further your point - you are either all in or hate the idea of radiology. its a very unique specialty

 

[FutureDoctor5000]

I do get what you’re saying.

Rads is different enough than a lot of the more competitive specialties that I just don’t know anyone using rads as a backup. I’m sure people do, but I wonder how common it really is.

The people I know going for ortho, as an example, have gen surg and anesthesia backups. I also know several “ortho or reapply ortho next year” type people. Are there some people applying rads as a backup? Statistically speaking, I’m sure there are, but I’ve never met one. Probably some of them match rads.

But you’re right that it’s very difficult to say what these numbers really look like until we see a charting outcomes.

It's only 200-300 people out of thousands of people who maybe using rads a back up. I am not saying it's super common enough that we all know someone doing it . It's common enough that it can affect the match rate tho. Tons of high stats people 240/250 steps going for ortho or ent etc using rads as a back up since rads had a high match rate after a 230 step 1 and there is enough overlap with something surgical, especially the focus on anatomy that the OR bound apply to it as a back up.