MD DO MERGER 2020 (BAD FOR DO)

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:smack: Your post was good except for this.... When will people realize there are a ton of specialties that are very open to even the most average to below average DOs? Yeah the people with board failures and other red flags might get stuck in PC, but other than that there really isn't anyone who should feel forced into PC. The world isn't divided into family medicine doctors and neurosurgeons.

Also, primary care is not a punishment or a destination for those who can't hack specialties. I came to a DO school because of the primary care focus. My stats were more than adequate for an MD school, but I wanted FM and this school had a program targeted for primary care that would let me shave off a year of time and tuition cost if I made that commitment up front. So, there is some self-fulfilling prophecy, as osteopathic medicine has a reputation of being very primary care relevant and people who are primary care bound by desire are likely to choose it.

People with board failures and red flags are not "stuck in PC." They are exceptionally fortunate to have the opportunity to pursue a career in an interesting and varied specialty, despite their personal shortcomings.
 
Also, primary care is not a punishment or a destination for those who can't hack specialties. I came to a DO school because of the primary care focus. My stats were more than adequate for an MD school, but I wanted FM and this school had a program targeted for primary care that would let me shave off a year of time and tuition cost if I made that commitment up front. So, there is some self-fulfilling prophecy, as osteopathic medicine has a reputation of being very primary care relevant and people who are primary care bound by desire are likely to choose it.

People with board failures and red flags are not "stuck in PC." They are exceptionally fortunate to have the opportunity to pursue a career in an interesting and varied specialty, despite their personal shortcomings.

That would be LECOM?
 
Finally read the Gevitz paper, its actually not completely unreasonable, but it does have major issues with some of the numbers that in my opinion skew them to make his point.

1) He assumes that the rate for DOs to attain positions in the SOAP will remain at the current rate. Here's the thing though, if we assume a bunch of the AOA programs that go unmatched (~700 spots) will now be added to the SOAP, it makes sense for the percentage of DOs that SOAP to go up. In addition, most DOs simply don't participate in the SOAP, because they know if they wait a few more days, they'll miss out on programs in the AOA scramble. No one knows how DO performance will be with a combined match. Him assuming the low projections he does is short-sighted. Personally I believe DOs will do better in both the NRMP match and SOAP with a combined match, but only time will tell.

2) There are a lot of problems with the numbers he quotes for AOA programs. The truth is many of the programs he's counting as "available" or in the match or need to make the transition, etc. are programs that have either closed in the last few years or haven't taken residents in the last few years. I first noticed this when I looked at the Osteopathic distinctiveness section. He said there were 41 NMM or NMM-combined programs. There are nowhere near that many. I looked into a lot of them, and many haven't taken residents for years because they don't have the PD or faculty for it. They still show up on AOA opportunities, but there's nowhere near 41 of them that are actually "active". So then I looked at his surgery program numbers more closely. He counted 182 surgical programs (that fits with AOA opportunities, which at times is outdated and inaccurate). I counted 139 that participated in last year's match. My guess is that a lot of the rest of the programs fill outside of the match (pre-match), and a handful are already closed or haven't taken residents in years.

3) He left out Urology from the surgery/surgical specialties calculation for some reason, which is odd. Almost all AOA Urology programs (10/11 - by the way 1 program was new for the 2016 year) have applied for ACGME accreditation and the majority have already received it. The fact that he left those out is suspicious, because they actually change the result by a significant degree.

4) He completely ignored the fact that a handful of the programs he counted as surgical programs that failed to apply were already dual-accredited programs that don't need to apply through the same pre-accreditation process.

5) He chose a time (July 30th) that actually had far fewer surgical programs that applied and were evaluated as compared to even a few days later. I'm not sure if this was intentional or simply because that's when he wrote this article. The problem is that at that point the sample size is so small, he couldn't possibly extrapolate the handful of programs in each specialty that were reviewed to all of the AOA positions.

6) In addition, in terms of actual spots, the numbers we're talking about are nowhere near 40% failing even if we scrap surgery as a complete loss. If we eliminate all of the AOA surgical positions (doesn't make sense since as of right now 1/3 of those reviewed already received accreditation), they only amount to <15% of all AOA seats. So unless we are also losing a ton of FM, IM and EM on top of the majority of surgery seats, we aren't getting anywhere close to the 40% number he's talking about.

7) As I've mentioned in another thread, he's ignoring the fact that for (1) programs have no risk in applying, because they can resubmit their app repeatedly during the transition at no extra fee and (2) the AOA incentivized them to apply ASAP in order to continue taking residents. You can't say that based on their first early attempt they won't make it. They can reapply and then get accredited. If anything, it might be beneficial to apply first without making significant changes, and then only changing the aspects that the RRC wants them to change. That way they save money only implementing the changes they need. Plus they have 4 more years to get it right. There's a transition period for a reason.

8) There are almost double the number of programs that applied for Osteopathic focus now than there are in his article. 24 additional programs have applied in 1.5 mos. It lends credence to what Promethean has heard, and honestly I've heard the same thing. Programs are waiting to first get ACGME initial accreditation before they apply for osteopathic focus.

9) He makes this claim that no AOA programs will open during the transition. It'll definitely slow, but a handful of programs already opened between 2015 and 2016, so obviously there still is growth. I also personally know of multiple AOA programs that opened up this year. The merger doesn't prevent the AOA from accrediting programs now, it prevents them from accrediting after 2020. So yeah, growth will slow, because they'll just open up as ACGME programs, but if anything, that means a greater increase of ACGME positions because all that OGME growth is going straight to the ACGME. That's another thing he didn't account for.

10) In his article he writes that some programs are choosing to close rather than apply (yes its a handful, but from 2015 to 2016 programs in the NMS still increased implying that the number is small or is off-set by OGME growth). Most of those programs were probably already considering closing, and this just seemed like a good time to do it, and honestly maybe its for the best. He even says that they "will voluntarily shut down because their sponsoring institutions have determined they do not have the fiscal or personnel resources or the patient load necessary to convert their programs into ACGME accredited programs", basically admitting that those that do close are deficient in terms of finances, personnel or patient load.

11) He also says that even though OGME may close "in many instances the positions will likely be harvested by other hospitals within a given health system or in a geographically adjacent area." This is yet another thing he doesn't account for as an increase in the rate of ACGME growth during the transition. If a lot of new ACGME spots will open up as a result of AOA spots closing, that effectively is equivalent to those spots not closing, but rather being converted to ACGME spots, just like all OGME during the transition. That's not really a loss.

12) His whole argument hinges around this idea that DOs will lose a safety net, so the majority of them won't match. The problem with that is that a lot of DOs apply with that idea in mind. They know there's a safety net, so they don't apply to as many programs. They know its tough on the ACGME surgical side, so they only focus on AOA apps and auditions. They know they can only rank a few MD programs and not participate in the SOAP, because they can always scramble to a TRI. Only time will tell how DOs will actually be affected by a combined match, but I highly doubt it'll be as bad as he implies.

Anyway, those are some issues I have with his article. I'm going to read the response now and see if they hit some of those issues.

Also, primary care is not a punishment or a destination for those who can't hack specialties. I came to a DO school because of the primary care focus. My stats were more than adequate for an MD school, but I wanted FM and this school had a program targeted for primary care that would let me shave off a year of time and tuition cost if I made that commitment up front. So, there is some self-fulfilling prophecy, as osteopathic medicine has a reputation of being very primary care relevant and people who are primary care bound by desire are likely to choose it.

People with board failures and red flags are not "stuck in PC." They are exceptionally fortunate to have the opportunity to pursue a career in an interesting and varied specialty, despite their personal shortcomings.

Don't forget one of the lowest tuition of DO schools (and private med schools in general) to begin with. You're probably spending for you're whole degree about as much as you would at another average private DO school for only 2 years. Basically, you're doing it right.

Tons of people in FM have good stats. It just happens that there is a population with major redflags that were lucky to get an FM spot, because there are so many of them to go around. There are FM programs everywhere. With something like 500 programs (>3000 spots) in the US, it constitutes the second largest field (second to IM), and its still one of the top 4 residencies in which US MDs and DOs match into.

I've also heard the same from NMM and other AOA PDs. They're waiting to apply until they have to and they're waiting for Osteopathic focus until after they get ACGME accreditation.

EDIT: Just read the response. It actually addresses some of the problems I noticed with his numbers. I also think it was a very good response. Short, to the point, and with clear explanations and points of why things actually are going well and why the merger was done in the first place.

I've said from the beginning that the creation of Osteopathic and NMM RRCs on the ACGME is a way to perpetuate OMM by literally putting it in the hands of potentially all US physicians. I was reaffirmed in that belief by hearing multiple MD students and residents explicitly mention (unprompted) that they wanted to learn OMT/NMM in residency.
 
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Finally read the Gevitz paper, its actually not completely unreasonable, but it does have major issues with some of the numbers that in my opinion skew them to make his point.

1) He assumes that the rate for DOs to attain positions in the SOAP will remain at the current rate. Here's the thing though, if we assume a bunch of the AOA programs that go unmatched (~700 spots) will now be added to the SOAP, it makes sense for the percentage of DOs that SOAP to go up. In addition, most DOs simply don't participate in the SOAP, because they know if they wait a few more days, they'll miss out on programs in the AOA scramble. No one knows how DO performance will be with a combined match. Him assuming the low projections he does is short-sighted. Personally I believe DOs will do better in both the NRMP match and SOAP with a combined match, but only time will tell.

2) There are a lot of problems with the numbers he quotes for AOA programs. The truth is many of the programs he's counting as "available" or in the match or need to make the transition, etc. are programs that have either closed in the last few years or haven't taken residents in the last few years. I first noticed this when I looked at the Osteopathic distinctiveness section. He said there were 41 NMM or NMM-combined programs. There are nowhere near that many. I looked into a lot of them, and many haven't taken residents for years because they don't have the PD or faculty for it. They still show up on AOA opportunities, but there's nowhere near 41 of them that are actually "active". So then I looked at his surgery program numbers more closely. He counted 182 surgical programs (that fits with AOA opportunities, which at times is outdated and inaccurate). I counted 139 that participated in last year's match. My guess is that a lot of the rest of the programs fill outside of the match (pre-match), and a handful are already closed or haven't taken residents in years.

3) He left out Urology from the surgery/surgical specialties calculation for some reason, which is odd. Almost all AOA Urology programs (10/11 - by the way 1 program was new for the 2016 year) have applied for ACGME accreditation and the majority have already received it. The fact that he left those out is suspicious, because they actually change the result by a significant degree.

4) He completely ignored the fact that a handful of the programs he counted as surgical programs that failed to apply were already dual-accredited programs that don't need to apply through the same pre-accreditation process.

5) He chose a time (July 30th) that actually had far fewer surgical programs that applied and were evaluated as compared to even a few days later. I'm not sure if this was intentional or simply because that's when he wrote this article. The problem is that at that point the sample size is so small, he couldn't possibly extrapolate the handful of programs in each specialty that were reviewed to all of the AOA positions.

6) In addition, in terms of actual spots, the numbers we're talking about are nowhere near 40% failing even if we scrap surgery as a complete loss. If we eliminate all of the AOA surgical positions (doesn't make sense since as of right now 1/3 of those reviewed already received accreditation), they only amount to <15% of all AOA seats. So unless we are also losing a ton of FM, IM and EM on top of the majority of surgery seats, we aren't getting anywhere close to the 40% number he's talking about.

7) As I've mentioned in another thread, he's ignoring the fact that for (1) programs have no risk in applying, because they can resubmit their app repeatedly during the transition at no extra fee and (2) the AOA incentivized them to apply ASAP in order to continue taking residents. You can't say that based on their first early attempt they won't make it. They can reapply and then get accredited. If anything, it might be beneficial to apply first without making significant changes, and then only changing the aspects that the RRC wants them to change. That way they save money only implementing the changes they need. Plus they have 4 more years to get it right. There's a transition period for a reason.

8) There are almost double the number of programs that applied for Osteopathic focus now than there are in his article. 24 additional programs have applied in 1.5 mos. It lends credence to what Promethean has heard, and honestly I've heard the same thing. Programs are waiting to first get ACGME initial accreditation before they apply for osteopathic focus.

9) He makes this claim that no AOA programs will open during the transition. It'll definitely slow, but a handful of programs already opened between 2015 and 2016, so obviously there still is growth. I also personally know of multiple AOA programs that opened up this year. The merger doesn't prevent the AOA from accrediting programs now, it prevents them from accrediting after 2020. So yeah, growth will slow, because they'll just open up as ACGME programs, but if anything, that means a greater increase of ACGME positions because all that OGME growth is going straight to the ACGME. That's another thing he didn't account for.

10) In his article he writes that some programs are choosing to close rather than apply (yes its a handful, but from 2015 to 2016 programs in the NMS still increased implying that the number is small or is off-set by OGME growth). Most of those programs were probably already considering closing, and this just seemed like a good time to do it, and honestly maybe its for the best. He even says that they "will voluntarily shut down because their sponsoring institutions have determined they do not have the fiscal or personnel resources or the patient load necessary to convert their programs into ACGME accredited programs", basically admitting that those that do close are deficient in terms of finances, personnel or patient load.

11) He also says that even though OGME may close "in many instances the positions will likely be harvested by other hospitals within a given health system or in a geographically adjacent area." This is yet another thing he doesn't account for as an increase in the rate of ACGME growth during the transition. If a lot of new ACGME spots will open up as a result of AOA spots closing, that effectively is equivalent to those spots not closing, but rather being converted to ACGME spots, just like all OGME during the transition. That's not really a loss.

12) His whole argument hinges around this idea that DOs will lose a safety net, so the majority of them won't match. The problem with that is that a lot of DOs apply with that idea in mind. They know there's a safety net, so they don't apply to as many programs. They know its tough on the ACGME surgical side, so they only focus on AOA apps and auditions. They know they can only rank a few MD programs and not participate in the SOAP, because they can always scramble to a TRI. Only time will tell how DOs will actually be affected by a combined match, but I highly doubt it'll be as bad as he implies.

Anyway, those are some issues I have with his article. I'm going to read the response now and see if they hit some of those issues.



Don't forget one of the lowest tuition of DO schools (and private med schools in general) to begin with. You're probably spending for you're whole degree about as much as you would at another average private DO school for only 2 years. Basically, you're doing it right.

Tons of people in FM have good stats. It just happens that there is a population with major redflags that were lucky to get an FM spot, because there are so many of them to go around. There are FM programs everywhere. With something like 500 programs (>3000 spots) in the US, it constitutes the second largest field (second to IM), and its still one of the top 4 residencies in which US MDs and DOs match into.

I've also heard the same from NMM and other AOA PDs. They're waiting to apply until they have to and they're waiting for Osteopathic focus until after they get ACGME accreditation.

EDIT: Just read the response. It actually addresses some of the problems I noticed with his numbers. I also think it was a very good response. Short, to the point, and with clear explanations and points of why things actually are going well and why the merger was done in the first place.

I've said from the beginning that the creation of Osteopathic and NMM RRCs on the ACGME is a way to perpetuate OMM by literally putting it in the hands of potentially all US physicians. I was reaffirmed in that belief by hearing multiple MD students and residents explicitly mention (unprompted) that they wanted to learn OMT/NMM in residency.

Hey I just wanna say thank you for the critique, I found this post very useful and intriguing!


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Talk about the mouse that roared!

I've said from the beginning that the creation of Osteopathic and NMM RRCs on the ACGME is a way to perpetuate OMM by literally putting it in the hands of potentially all US physicians. I was reaffirmed in that belief by hearing multiple MD students and residents explicitly mention (unprompted) that they wanted to learn OMT/NMM in residency.[/QUOTE]
 
Merger is great for DO profession

You think so? I'm really curious cause I have the option of going to either an MD school or a DO school and I'm just concerned about whether the merger will be beneficial for me if I go the DO route. I feel like the stigma will be there no matter how well I perform.
 
Go MD and don't look back. Your life will be made easier.
I know I wish it were that simple but if I choose MD I will have to be away from husband who also got into med school elsewhere. That's why I'm struggling.
 
Ok that changes things a bit, what schools are you deciding between? Your husband?
 
Ok that changes things a bit, what schools are you deciding between? Your husband?

If I go for Rowan osteo we'll end up in Philly together and he can go to Drexel/Temple. If not I'll go to UIC and he'll go to Pitt which is obviously better than all the rest but we're still hoping to stay together in one place. I don't care that it's DO I'm just worried about the merger coming up and if it will hurt my chances of matching we'll considering everything will be MD and the stigma against DO remains.
 
If I go for Rowan osteo we'll end up in Philly together and he can go to Drexel/Temple. If not I'll go to UIC and he'll go to Pitt which is obviously better than all the rest but we're still hoping to stay together in one place. I don't care that it's DO I'm just worried about the merger coming up and if it will hurt my chances of matching we'll considering everything will be MD and the stigma against DO remains.

Rowan is for sure a solid DO school and for most specialties i personally wouldnt be too worried about the merger having an effect on you if you stayed within Rowans OPTI/In the regional area.

However based on your username, im assuming youre genuinely interested in g surgery or a surgical subspecialty. Charting outcomes so far show US MDs have a lot more leeway matching to these specialties on the ACGME side. Time will tell how the merger effects these especially with the state schools and their larger than normal OPTI.


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Rowan is for sure a solid DO school and for most specialties i personally wouldnt be too worried about the merger having an effect on you if you stayed within Rowans OPTI/In the regional area.

However based on your username, im assuming youre genuinely interested in g surgery or a surgical subspecialty. Charting outcomes so far show US MDs have a lot more leeway matching to these specialties on the ACGME side. Time will tell how the merger effects these especially with the state schools and their larger than normal OPTI.


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I'm considering surgery or cardio so I'm also open to an IM residency. I'm just hoping that the merger doesn't screw the DOs over since pretty much DO residencies will be nonexistent so if you don't match as a DO in an Md residency you don't match at all.
 
If I go for Rowan osteo we'll end up in Philly together and he can go to Drexel/Temple. If not I'll go to UIC and he'll go to Pitt which is obviously better than all the rest but we're still hoping to stay together in one place. I don't care that it's DO I'm just worried about the merger coming up and if it will hurt my chances of matching we'll considering everything will be MD and the stigma against DO remains.

I think it really just comes down to how you want to be together. For me personally, I wouldn't want to be away from my spouse for 4 years but only you two can make that decision. For what it is worth Rowan is one of the best DO programs.

The merger is good for DOs in the long run, but it will probably make the competitive specialties even more competitive. Do you know what you are interested in?

I'm considering surgery or cardio so I'm also open to an IM residency. I'm just hoping that the merger doesn't screw the DOs over since pretty much DO residencies will be nonexistent so if you don't match as a DO in an Md residency you don't match at all.

Just saw this. True they won't be "DO residencies" anymore, but they won't be "MD residencies" anymore either. They are just residencies. Unfortunately, on a strictly career/matching level UIC will offer the greatest potential for you.
 
I think it really just comes down to how you want to be together. For me personally, I wouldn't want to be away from my spouse for 4 years but only you two can make that decision. For what it is worth Rowan is one of the best DO programs.

The merger is good for DOs in the long run, but it will probably make the competitive specialties even more competitive. Do you know what you are interested in?



Just saw this. True they won't be "DO residencies" anymore, but they won't be "MD residencies" anymore either. They are just residencies. Unfortunately, on a strictly career/matching level UIC will offer the greatest potential for you.
I think it really just comes down to how you want to be together. For me personally, I wouldn't want to be away from my spouse for 4 years but only you two can make that decision. For what it is worth Rowan is one of the best DO programs.

The merger is good for DOs in the long run, but it will probably make the competitive specialties even more competitive. Do you know what you are interested in?



Just saw this. True they won't be "DO residencies" anymore, but they won't be "MD residencies" anymore either. They are just residencies. Unfortunately, on a strictly career/matching level UIC will offer the greatest potential for you.
Yeah :/. Decisions decisions lol
 
I think it really just comes down to how you want to be together. For me personally, I wouldn't want to be away from my spouse for 4 years but only you two can make that decision. For what it is worth Rowan is one of the best DO programs.

The merger is good for DOs in the long run, but it will probably make the competitive specialties even more competitive. Do you know what you are interested in?



Just saw this. True they won't be "DO residencies" anymore, but they won't be "MD residencies" anymore either. They are just residencies. Unfortunately, on a strictly career/matching level UIC will offer the greatest potential for you.

I'm interested in gen surgery and in cardio. Right now I'm leaning more towards cardio cause I would like to have a family and cardio is my favorite anyways so I would go into IM which is not very competitive. I'm not really interested in the super competitive specialties at this point
 
Have him go to pitt and you can go to UIC and just fly to visit. Trust me, by doing this you set yourself up for the future because you will be able to couple match MUCH better.

Just take my given field, IR, i heard ONE IR match this year from a DO. I am sure he performed magnitudes better than a guy who went to pitt. One DO I know have 250s and he is at the same midwestern community rads program that I am in.
 
Have him go to pitt and you can go to UIC and just fly to visit. Trust me, by doing this you set yourself up for the future because you will be able to couple match MUCH better.

Just take my given field, IR, i heard ONE IR match this year from a DO. I am sure he performed magnitudes better than a guy who went to pitt. One DO I know have 250s and he is at the same midwestern community rads program that I am in.

Yeah we're both really considering it. I mean nothing will happen relationship wise and we'll visit each other. I might even have the chance to do rotations at Pitt but you know it would suck to live apart. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do. Lol. Thank you 🙂
 
Yeah we're both really considering it. I mean nothing will happen relationship wise and we'll visit each other. I might even have the chance to do rotations at Pitt but you know it would suck to live apart. I guess we gotta do what we gotta do. Lol. Thank you 🙂

I will most likely be doing fellowship away from my SO. We both want an academic career and it's only one year. You cannot imagine how much going to pitt will set you up for the future. The difference is vast and often cannot be overcome with just hardwork.

Plus, if one of you REALLY want to go to a different program but wasnt able to due to sacrificing for relationships, it brews resentment.

For that reason I told my SO i cannot take her to watch La la land. Life is a mixture of sacrifices and compromises and sometimes certain things are worth it. I made the choice to chase training and hopefully it'll work out for both of us.
 
I only heard of the guy going to rochester from LECOM from the thread, where is the other matches?

OSU has one to Utah, and I think one more but I can't remember which school. The Rochester match is from Rowan I believe.
 
I agree with your point 100%, but want to point out there were more than one.

I do think you are minimalizimg how hard living away from a spouse for 4 years would be however.
I agree but we do plan to visit each other often and if we're able to do rotations together we'll have that time together not to mention that 4th year we'll be both traveling to the same places for residency interviews so well also have that time together. Trust me I know how difficult this decision is
 
OP,
I'm one of the biggest proponents/supporters of DO, but until the dust settles from this merger (post 2020) it probably will be best to go MD.

No doubt the time apart will be some of the most challenging years for you both, but in the long-run it will worth it.

Best of luck!
 
OP,
I'm one of the biggest proponents/supporters of DO, but until the dust settles from this merger (post 2020) it probably will be best to go MD.

No doubt the time apart will be some of the most challenging years for you both, but in the long-run it will worth it.

Best of luck!
Thank you! You guys have made me feel better about this :soexcited:
 
I only heard of the guy going to rochester from LECOM from the thread, where is the other matches?

I think there were around 5 total. 1) LECOM, 2) OSU, 3) Rowan (Rochester), 4) ATSU-SOMA 5)NSU

EDIT: Will change post if I find more.

EDIT2: Add 6) MSU
 
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I think there were around 5 total. 1) LECOM, 2) OSU, 3) Rowan (Rochester), 4) ATSU-SOMA 5)NSU

EDIT: Will change post if I find more.

EDIT2: Add 6) MSU

I believe RVU had a IR match in Chicago this year although our match list has not been released yet and I haven't 100% confirmed this.


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To get into a fellowship under internal medicine, such as endocrinology or immunology, would I need to go to a prestigious/highly ranked IM program? And would getting into these IM programs likely be more difficult in the short run for DOs?
 
To get into a fellowship under internal medicine, such as endocrinology or immunology, would I need to go to a prestigious/highly ranked IM program? And would getting into these IM programs likely be more difficult in the short run for DOs?

Depends on the fellowship, endocrine or ID? You can match that from basically any IM program. Cards and Allergy are difficult but not impossible for DOs, and GI is the most competitive with only 1/3 DOs finding a spot. For the more competitive fellowships you want a more academic university level IM program.

Top IM programs do not take DOs for the most part.
 
well lately I think DO should be phased out. MD only.
 
well lately I think DO should be phased out. MD only.

Unless every single MD is willing to do extra training to qualify for DO pretty much the philosophy would be obsolete if that did happened. I dot see how that's beneficial for pts.
 
Unless every single MD is willing to do extra training to qualify for DO pretty much the philosophy would be obsolete if that did happened. I dot see how that's beneficial for pts.

How is OMM, or the osteopathic "philosophy" particularly helpful for patients?

I'm interested in gen surgery and in cardio. Right now I'm leaning more towards cardio cause I would like to have a family and cardio is my favorite anyways so I would go into IM which is not very competitive. I'm not really interested in the super competitive specialties at this point

Gen Surg isn't particularly competitive, but it also is pretty strongly biased against DOs and Cardiology is a hard fellowship match under the best of circumstances. If you're offered the choice of going MD vs DO, when looking at it from a "what's best for my career" perspective 99,9% of the time the US-MD is going to be a better choice.

Relationship-wise, you guys both being MDs (and your SO coming from Pitt) will give you much more leeway in the couples match since neither of you will really be limited by issues of whether or not X program takes DOs, etc. So while it will suck short-term, long-term it's a much better prospect than trying to match as a DO.
 
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How is OMM, or the osteopathic "philosophy" particularly helpful for patients?



Gen Surg isn't particularly competitive, but it also is pretty strongly biased against DOs and Cardiology is a hard fellowship match under the best of circumstances. If you're offered the choice of going MD vs DO, when looking at it from a "what's best for my career" perspective 99,9% of the time the US-MD is going to be a better choice.

Relationship-wise, you guys both being MDs (and your SO coming from Pitt) will give you much more leeway in the couples match since neither of you will really be limited by issues of whether or not X program takes DOs, etc. So while it will suck short-term, long-term it's a much better prospect than trying to match as a DO.

Maybe not OMM so much as the whole philosophy of treating a pt from different angles and seeing how several factors affect their whole person. I think that's an important aspect of being a DO and one that may prove to be more beneficial for pts rather than just being treated for symptoms. If these ideals were more stressed in an MD curriculum then maybe in the future that's something that could be considered since I doubt the DO stigma will EVER go away.
 
Maybe not OMM so much as the whole philosophy of treating a pt from different angles and seeing how several factors affect their whole person. I think that's an important aspect of being a DO and one that may prove to be more beneficial for pts rather than just being treated for symptoms. If these ideals were more stressed in an MD curriculum then maybe in the future that's something that could be considered since I doubt the DO stigma will EVER go away.

I always think it's offensive to say MDs in general do not treat the whole patient. In truth, some DOs and MDs treat the whole patients and some don't.
 
Maybe not OMM so much as the whole philosophy of treating a pt from different angles and seeing how several factors affect their whole person. I think that's an important aspect of being a DO and one that may prove to be more beneficial for pts rather than just being treated for symptoms. If these ideals were more stressed in an MD curriculum then maybe in the future that's something that could be considered since I doubt the DO stigma will EVER go away.

Idk, as a 4th year graduating from an MD program I feel that this was very much a part of my education.

Another thing to consider is often times, particularly when you're in a high-demand and underserved clinical context, you don't always have the time and resources available to dedicate towards treating the whole person. Much of medicine is actually social work and is beyond the purview of a physician on their own. Considering that, often times it's easier to "treat the whole person" when you actually have the resources and expertise available to you to actually do so, and (at least in my geographic are) you're much more likely to find that at an Allopathic institution than an Osteopathic one.

I always think it's offensive to say MDs in general do not treat the whole patient. In truth, some DOs and MDs treat the whole patients and some don't.

I think more important than having this argument is recognising what you actually can and can't do to help patients. Saying things like "we look at patients holistically" are nice buzzwords to throw at premeds who may not know any better, but the realities of clinical medicine don't give a **** about buzzwords. It's easy to be holistic when your patient population is largely middle class and has good access to primary care, it's much harder to do so when 50% of your patient population is homeless or undocumented, when 1 in 6 of them are HIV positive and 1 in 5 have a substance abuse problem, and when 1 in 4 have some psychiatric disorder. Holistic in that context means much more, and often that's beyond the level of what your average Osteopathic institution can throw resources at.


Anyway this is wayyy off topic
 
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Idk, as a 4th year graduating from an MD program I feel that this was very much a part of my education.

Another thing to consider is often times, particularly when you're in a high-demand and underserved clinical context, you don't always have the time and resources available to dedicate towards treating the whole person. Much of medicine is actually social work and is beyond the purview of a physician on their own. Considering that, often times it's easier to "treat the whole person" when you actually have the resources and expertise available to you to actually do so, and (at least in my geographic are) you're much more likely to find that at an Allopathic institution than an Osteopathic one.



I think more important than having this argument is recognising what you actually can and can't do to help patients. Saying things like "we look at patients holistically" are nice buzzwords to throw at premeds who may not know any better, but the realities of clinical medicine don't give a **** about buzzwords. It's easy to be holistic when your patient population is largely middle class and has good access to primary care, it's much harder to do so when 50% of your patient population is homeless or undocumented, when 1 in 6 of them are HIV positive and 1 in 5 have a substance abuse problem, and when 1 in 4 have some psychiatric disorder. Holistic in that context means much more, and often that's beyond the level of what your average Osteopathic institution can throw resources at.


Anyway this is wayyy off topic
Yeah I see what you're saying
 
I always think it's offensive to say MDs in general do not treat the whole patient. In truth, some DOs and MDs treat the whole patients and some don't.
It's really not meant to be offensive and I know MDs care for the whole pt but in the clinical settings I have worked a lot of the time pts are treated sumptomatically without considering other factors. This is just my own experience and I am sure there is plenty i don't know that i will learn with the years.
 
It's really not meant to be offensive and I know MDs care for the whole pt but in the clinical settings I have worked a lot of the time pts are treated sumptomatically without considering other factors. This is just my own experience and I am sure there is plenty i don't know that i will learn with the years.

I think you'll find that in most cases, clinical medicine in the real world ends up being practised like this. For many physicians, there simply isn't enough time, resources or manpower available to chase down the root causes of every patient's illnesses beyond a superficial level. Most problems in medicine are a result of a confluence of systemic problems and poor lifestyle choices and both of those unfortunately beyond most physicians ability to change.

I can tell you to eat better but I can't replace the fast food takeaway shops in your neighbourhood with organic grocery stores. I can tell you to rest but I can't get you a new job because you got fired from your construction gig. I can tell you take your meds but I can't force you (unless you have TB in NY)
 
It's really not meant to be offensive and I know MDs care for the whole pt but in the clinical settings I have worked a lot of the time pts are treated sumptomatically without considering other factors. This is just my own experience and I am sure there is plenty i don't know that i will learn with the years.

I am sorry that this has been your experience, but this is a medicine problem, not a MD or DO problem.
 
Can a fricken single post dictating the following be put in a f**king sticky

"Apply both MD and DO. Go MD if you get accepted, otherwise you have no choice and go DO. It probably won't hurt you anyway."

Also just lol at Goro being on probation.
 
Can a fricken single post dictating the following be put in a f**king sticky

"Apply both MD and DO. Go MD if you get accepted, otherwise you have no choice and go DO. It probably won't hurt you anyway."

Also just lol at Goro being on probation.

Not to derail thread but why on earth is someone who contributes so much of his own time to helping pre-med students (including myself) on probation? Like seriously SDN staff?


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All merging is good. The more merging the better. Medicine is the pentacle of professionalism and we are looked upon as one of the most organized, well-esteemed professions. Given than DO's and MD's have identical roles in society, we are both part of the AMA, and have full authority of procedures and prescribing, I advocate for more merging. End the artificial dichotomy. Anyone who has seen DO's and MD's practice knows there are very few differences (excluding OMM).

The point is that solidarity and organization give authority. The more organized we are, the more authority we will have. This is particularly relevant given the volatile health policy stage. First the ACA now whatever Trump proposes. Health policy should be decided by physicians. Moreover, aspects of medical education and liscencing could use an overhauling as well. This will be easier the more osteopathic and allopathic medicine combine.
 
One potential side effect of the merger is solidification of MD as the "subspecialist" degree and DO as the "primary care" degree.
 
One potential side effect of the merger is solidification of MD as the "subspecialist" degree and DO as the "primary care" degree.

That's actually an interesting point...........
 
Anyone know what Goro is on probation for? I haven't seen him/her make any egregious comments.
 
Anyone know what Goro is on probation for? I haven't seen him/her make any egregious comments.
Curious as to this too. Also, what are the stages of disciplinary action?
1) Probationary status
2) Account on Hold
3) Ban?
The last thing I'd want to see is someone as helpful as him getting his account banned for some silly reason.
 
I think there were around 5 total. 1) LECOM, 2) OSU, 3) Rowan (Rochester), 4) ATSU-SOMA 5)NSU

EDIT: Will change post if I find more.

EDIT2: Add 6) MSU

I believe RVU had a IR match in Chicago this year although our match list has not been released yet and I haven't 100% confirmed this.


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Looks like RVU just got confirmed in the match list thread, UofI chicago. That makes 7! Which may not sound super hopeful for the DOs out there with IR on the mind, but definitely better than 1 lol


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