MD DO MERGER 2020 (BAD FOR DO)

[Clarus]

Because the general public does not give a ****.

In the hospital, every shmuck with a white coat on is considered a doctor to patients.

IF anything, they need to get rid of the DO title and I pray we can just pay a fee to convert our initials to MD like they used to back in the day.

OMM is the only thing we waste our time on.... which will be open to MDs as well after the merger. So boom.. no more ****ing difference between DOs and MDs besides that "treat the whole person" approach.... which is some bull you say to get into school in the first place.

lol

Well... that's one way of putting it. lol I agree with you on certain parts but I don't like to think of it that way. Since when did DO's pay to get their title changed? That was a thing?!

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[DetectiveAlonzo]

Thanks. I definitely am planning on throwing some out there. Planning on applying very wisely using LizzyM, while hoping the vet service gives a boost. Gotta get selected for the program first though lol. Leave it to the Navy to have a deadline in November and release the results in March.

When it comes to apps man, and money isn't THAT much of a concern, I'd consider applying to EVERY program you can afford to. You truly never know what can happen. Especially if you apply early, you will be much ahead of other applicants who haven't put in their apps yet.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Well... that's one way of putting it. lol I agree with you on certain parts but I don't like to think of it that way. Since when did DO's pay to get their title changed? That was a thing?!

Back in California during the 70s or something there was this debacle about how DOs could change to MDs and yeah.

Just pay a small fee and boom, you were a MD. lol

 

[ATPsynthase123]

LOLZ that was funny.

But I respectfully disagree.

They worked hard and got into a MD program.

We should have worked harder in undergrad.

Simple.

I look at OMM as a necessary evil to be able to atleast go to med school in the US.

Could be worse...

We could be in the Caribbean.

If I have to touch my sweaty classmates and act like I'm performing some mystical treatment, I'll do it with a smile as long as I can stay in the states and atleast know I have a FULL chance of matching into SOMETHING.

I can't agree with this, not because of the OMM, but because your saying DO applicants are essentially the flunkies of US medical programs.

This isn't necessarily true, sometimes you just get screwed. For example, the chem dept. at my university is straight garbage. I was lucky enough to take organic 1 and 2 off schedule when the worst and most difficult professor was teaching it (she tested on a level way above her teaching skill). Ended up with a B+ and C. I basically sunk so much time trying to understand organic that my other courses suffered. For one year I dropped from an A/A- student to a B/C student. Then went back to making As. It f*cked my GPA so much that my only real shots at admissions is DO or IS MD, but it certainly wasn't because I was stupid or "just didn't try hard." The same study tactics that got me As in Cell Biology, Molecular Biology, human metabolism, Biochem and literally every other science course, got me B's and C's in Organic.

Blanket statements about "we" and "us" are never a good thing unless you know everything about everyone else.


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

When it comes to apps man, and money isn't THAT much of a concern, I'd consider applying to EVERY program you can afford to. You truly never know what can happen. Especially if you apply early, you will be much ahead of other applicants who haven't put in their apps yet.

Yeah, I hear you. Money is always a concern when you have two kids. Tryna make GM1 in March first time up so I can get that sweet E-6 pay and put it all into my apps lol.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I can't agree with this, not because of the OMM, but because your saying DO applicants are essentially the flunkies of US medical programs.

This isn't necessarily true, sometimes you just get screwed. For example, the chem dept. at my university is straight garbage. I was lucky enough to take organic 1 and 2 off schedule when the worst and most difficult professor was teaching it (she tested on a level way above her teaching skill). Ended up with a B+ and C. I basically sunk so much time trying to understand organic that my other courses suffered. For one year I dropped from an A/A- student to a B/C student. Then went back to making As. It f*cked my GPA so much that my only real shots at admissions is DO or IS MD, but it certainly wasn't because I was stupid or "just didn't try hard." The same study tactics that got me As in Cell Biology, Molecular Biology, human metabolism, Biochem and literally every other science course, got me B's and C's in Organic.

Blanket statements about "we" and "us" are never a good thing unless you know everything about everyone else.


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Nobody stopped you from taking it at a CC.

Also, I'm sorry you tanked that year but there was somebody in your class that aced it most likely. Therefore, you probably should have done what he or she did. I'm not saying you are stupid but take it for what it is.

That's why you can take these classes elsewhere. Sometimes you gotta play the admissions game. Being smart doesn't mean the same as hardworking.

IDK your app, nor do I care to know honestly, but don't get offended.

Also, ask a majority of any DO students if they wanted MD....

trust me. lol

80% of them would say yes.

I was one of them too.

I was a lazy piece of **** and realized that a little bit too late. Not saying we are flunkies at all... but it is what it is.

Our average entrance GPAs are lower.... as are our MCAT scores compared to MD folks.

But once you are in, we are all on an even level (somewhat.. depends who you ask) lol

This is just my own experience. But I have only met a HANDFUL of DO students who are at a DO program because they believe in the OMM part.

A majority are definitely there as MD backups.

I'm just the first to openly admit it and not ashamed of it at all lol

All of this is to simply say..


**** OMM.

 

[Aubrey Graham]

First time I have heard of this...is it a bad time to go to DO schools??


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

First time I have heard of this...is it a bad time to go to DO schools??


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It is perhaps less than ideal if you want to be a pediatric neurosurgeon. Otherwise, no.

 

[Aubrey Graham]

It is perhaps less than ideal if you want to be a pediatric neurosurgeon. Otherwise, no.

Was it easier to be a pediatric neurosurgeon before? Lol


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Was it easier to be a pediatric neurosurgeon before? Lol


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That was the point. The merger will change things a bit, and no one really knows how. But it seems like the opinions of our learned adcoms are that what shouldn't change too much is that unless you're gunning for a super competitive specialty (or a top residency), being a DO is not a bad thing. And even that is possible if you work your ass off, are a genius, and get lucky.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

First time I have heard of this...is it a bad time to go to DO schools??


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It's definitely a bad time to go to DO medical school.

We are losing our resident spots.

We will be stuck in primary care (not a bad thing depending on who you ask)

Do the RN ---> CRNA route or NP or PA route.
You make similar to more $ per hour and less liability and NO CALL!!!!

Unless you really really wanna be a doc, it really isn't worth it man. The game is changing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It's definitely a bad time to go to DO medical school.

We are losing our resident spots.

We will be stuck in primary care (not a bad thing depending on who you ask)

Do the RN ---> CRNA route or NP or PA route.
You make similar to more $ per hour and less liability and NO CALL!!!!

Unless you really really wanna be a doc, it really isn't worth it man. The game is changing.

Are you serious? The highest paid PA probably makes similar to the lowest paid doctor. Yes, they have less liability in some positions, but those high paying jobs will likely entail lots of call and responsibility, not to mention long hours. PAs are used to extend the ability of the physician to see more patients and do more. That usually translates to the PA working long hours.

CRNA is the only one that may be true. They make great money and often have sweet gigs. That said, I know many who take call and put in plenty of work. And you need a BSN and a year minimum of experience, plus the two year program.

 

[Seth Joo]

From what I understand, MDs cannot simply apply to DO positions. They are required to have the same certifications as a DO, which would be extra training. Meanwhile it sounds like the process is going to be more streamlined for DO candidates. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

MDs will never want to apply to DO training positions anyway, its always DOs who want to apply to MD training positions. MD training means more employment prospects after residency.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Are you serious? The highest paid PA probably makes similar to the lowest paid doctor. Yes, they have less liability in some positions, but those high paying jobs will likely entail lots of call and responsibility, not to mention long hours. PAs are used to extend the ability of the physician to see more patients and do more. That usually translates to the PA working long hours.

CRNA is the only one that may be true. They make great money and often have sweet gigs. That said, I know many who take call and put in plenty of work. And you need a BSN and a year minimum of experience, plus the two year program.

You have to take into account their schooling and loan burden. Are you kidding ME? Lol their studies are a JOKE compared to the stuff we see and what we have to learn. It's a much watered down version of what we see. They do not have to spend a minimum of 4+ 3 years of residency before they see ANY major 6-figure pay.

Limited liability. Great benefits. Very little malpractice ( because their ass and license is not on the line).

To all pre-meds considering this route... PLEASE be exposed to other fields before you settle on MD or DO.

Every field across medicine is calling for increased autonomy for mid levels and the opposite for us future physicians.

All my buddies in nursing complain of having to study when they have more than enough time to smoke ganja and play COD all day lol
They aren't the sharpest nor most hardworking tools in the shed.

Much easier to be a shark in an ocean filled with guppies in nursing and midlevel programs for Sure.

 

[Dr. Death]

First time I have heard of this...is it a bad time to go to DO schools??


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Yes and it's getting worse as DO schools keep breeding like rabbits. In the foreseeable future, DO placement rates are going to be plummeting simply because there are more students than spots. There will always be a significant amount of IMGs with high scores getting residency programs, AOA programs are closing, very few programs are opening. Every year it will get more difficult to attain a residency, let alone one outside primary care.

 

[ATPsynthase123]

It's definitely a bad time to go to DO medical school.

We are losing our resident spots.

We will be stuck in primary care (not a bad thing depending on who you ask)

Do the RN ---> CRNA route or NP or PA route.
You make similar to more $ per hour and less liability and NO CALL!!!!

Unless you really really wanna be a doc, it really isn't worth it man. The game is changing.

If you think these are such great professions that are secretly so much better than MD/DO, then why don't you drop your education and do it instead of telling others to do so? You're talking out of your ass and you know it.


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[ATPsynthase123]

Yes and it's getting worse as DO schools keep breeding like rabbits. In the foreseeable future, DO placement rates are going to be plummeting simply because there are more students than spots. There will always be a significant amount of IMGs with high scores getting residency programs, AOA programs are closing, very few programs are opening. Every year it will get more difficult to attain a residency, let alone one outside primary care.

If I get in this cycle, then this won't affect me, but it will become a big issue in the next 20 years.


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[DetectiveAlonzo]

If you think these are such great professions that are secretly so much better than MD/DO, then why don't you drop your education and do it instead of telling others to do so? You're talking out of your ass and you know it.


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Ok first off.

Chill little homie.

I'm simply trying to help naive premeds like yourself make the right decision and give you a little more insight into the what things will be like 4-5 years from now.

But heyyy... u wanna end up in primary care with $300,000 debt?

Be my guest.

Please don't shoot the messenger. It is a great time to be a midlevel.

As long as you know what you are getting in and don't have your hopes too high because by the time you get in (if you do.. which you will with your stats because DO programs are less lenient on mediocre stats), then cheers mate. You'll be great!

But to be honest, you wanna know why I choose to stay in?

Because I made my decision and stick with my decisions, no matter the outcome. I respect vows. I'm not the one to jump ship when **** gets rough or agitated when things aren't going my way.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

Yes and it's getting worse as DO schools keep breeding like rabbits. In the foreseeable future, DO placement rates are going to be plummeting simply because there are more students than spots. There will always be a significant amount of IMGs with high scores getting residency programs, AOA programs are closing, very few programs are opening. Every year it will get more difficult to attain a residency, let alone one outside primary care.

These pre-meds don't get it.

They know everythinggggg about residency lol

As a current DO student, who is involved in our school's AOA chapter and has been involved in insight meetings with people from GME and actually have a little more insight into the actual numbers of programs closing down and how many DO residencies are actually applying for accreditation ----> (VERY FEW BTW. They are closing down!) ---> I'd like to think I have a little more knowledge concerning the bleak future for us DOs.

But no... don't listen to me.

Y'all do you lol

Oh.. and PS.... just because you killed it or proved yourself in undergrad doesn't mean jack.

I'm seeing people from solidly ranked undergrad universities getting killed by our curriculum and aren't coping well.

Med school is a huge wake up call and they had aspirations of doing something else than primary care before beginning. Combined with the GME merger stress... many of them are reluctantly "settling" for a spot in IM, FM, etc.

Please do not be that guy or gal. It's sad to see but hey.. they should have known what they were walking into.

PEOPLE... PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. I am not the only DO student mentioning this!

 

[Goro]

They're not closing down, and the sky is not falling. As mentioned above, programs are given multiple chances to redeem themselves and fix their deficits. Ditto med schools themselves...like, Baylor and Rosy F, which were on probation recently.

These pre-meds don't get it.

They know everythinggggg about residency lol

As a current DO student, who is involved in our school's AOA chapter and has been involved in insight meetings with people from GME and actually have a little more insight into the actual numbers of programs closing down and how many DO residencies are actually applying for accreditation ----> (VERY FEW BTW. They are closing down!) ---> I'd like to think I have a little more knowledge concerning the bleak future for us DOs.

But no... don't listen to me.

Y'all do you lol

Oh.. and PS.... just because you killed it or proved yourself in undergrad doesn't mean jack.

I'm seeing people from solidly ranked undergrad universities getting killed by our curriculum and aren't coping well.

Med school is a huge wake up call and they had aspirations of doing something else than primary care before beginning. Combined with the GME merger stress... many of them are reluctantly "settling" for a spot in IM, FM, etc.

Please do not be that guy or gal. It's sad to see but hey.. they should have known what they were walking into.

PEOPLE... PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH. I am not the only DO student mentioning this!

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

they're not closing down, and the sky is not falling. As mentioned above, programs are given multiple chances to redeem themselves and fix their deficits. Ditto med schools themselves...like, Baylor and Rosy F.

GORO... my man. I should have elaborated. You are right... these programs I'm mentioning are simply for more for surgical specialties. Atleast that is what the document I was shown by our dean and clinical education folks stresses.

I personally think the merger is a great thing.

But i think many pre-meds are too starry eyed and don't realize there IS a ceiling for us DOs.

Will it shatter?

Hopefully.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

GORO... my man. I should have elaborated. You are right... these programs I'm mentioning are simply for more for surgical specialties. Atleast that is what the document I was emailed by our dean and clinical education folks stresses.

I personally think the merger is a great thing.

But i think many pre-meds are too starry eyed and don't realize there IS a ceiling for us DOs.

Will it shatter?

Hopefully.

What was the content of this document you were all sent?


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You have to take into account their schooling and loan burden. Are you kidding ME? Lol their studies are a JOKE compared to the stuff we see and what we have to learn. It's a much watered down version of what we see. They do not have to spend a minimum of 4+ 3 years of residency before they see ANY major 6-figure pay.

I agree with most of that. The PAs I know are all smart folks and said that PA school was definitely not a joke, but was a streamlined version (nicer way of saying watered down). NP programs do not compare. It's like a firehouse and a clogged garden hose.

As far as CRNA programs go, they vary I'm sure. The one attached to the hospital I worked at was definitely legit.

However, CRNAs definitely have some time before that six figure pay. BSN means 4 years of school, plus a year minimum of experience, then 2 years of CRNA school. That isn't cheap.

PA school is 4 years of undergrad plus 2.5-3 years of PA school followed by a starting salary that usually is less than six figures. Not sure about NPs, but it seems like their salaries are similar.

Limited liability. Great benefits. Very little malpractice ( because their ass and license is not on the line).

Well, NPs working independently definitely have their licenses on the line, and I'm willing to bet that while PAs work for a doc, their licenses are out there too.

Same for CRNAs. Though the nursing Union tends to be super strong, which I'm sure gives them (and NPs) some cushion.

To all pre-meds considering this route... PLEASE be exposed to other fields before you settle on MD or DO.

Every field across medicine is calling for increased autonomy for mid levels and the opposite for us future physicians.

No one is calling for less physician autonomy. That's ridiculous. I don't think most people understand what NP and CRNA autonomy really means. I bet if I ask someone if they want a nurse giving them anesthesia without a doctor present, most people would say no.

The AMA needs to push education so that patients really know what's going on when they go see an independent NP.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

What was the content of this document you were all sent?


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DOs want to pull out of the merger now because they realize we are being ****ed lol

So those spots are open to MDs now as well.

Many DO residency programs did not meet the cut nor did they even TRY to gain ACGME accreditation. They just decided it wouldn't be worth the hassle and many of them would rather shut down.

Most of these happened in surgical programs and a few primary care areas IIRC. Don't have the document with me but I'm sure other DO programs and other DO students can chime in.

Essentially, DO is the new route for primary care.

Is FM or IM worth $250,000-300,000 debt to you?

If the answer is yes, then come on in and join the osteopathic bandwagon!

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I agree with most of that. The PAs I know are all smart folks and said that PA school was definitely not a joke, but was a streamlined version (nicer way of saying watered down). NP programs do not compare. It's like a firehouse and a clogged garden hose.

As far as CRNA programs go, they vary I'm sure. The one attached to the hospital I worked at was definitely legit.

However, CRNAs definitely have some time before that six figure pay. BSN means 4 years of school, plus a year minimum of experience, then 2 years of CRNA school. That isn't cheap.

PA school is 4 years of undergrad plus 2.5-3 years of PA school followed by a starting salary that usually is less than six figures. Not sure about NPs, but it seems like their salaries are similar.



Well, NPs working independently definitely have their licenses on the line, and I'm willing to bet that while PAs work for a doc, their licenses are out there too.

Same for CRNAs. Though the nursing Union tends to be super strong, which I'm sure gives them (and NPs) some cushion.



No one is calling for less physician autonomy. That's ridiculous. I don't think most people understand what NP and CRNA autonomy really means. I bet if I ask someone if they want a nurse giving them anesthesia without a doctor present, most people would say no.

The AMA needs to push education so that patients really know what's going on when they go see an independent NP.

I meant to state that there is less physician autonomy occurring and more teamwork required amongst midlevels now. Should have worded that more clearly. My bad.

Also, I am not counting undergrad as that is variable. I as well as a few people I graduated with completed our undergrad degree in 2.5 years (yes an actual bachelor's).

I am simply mentioning the time after getting your undergrad degree, which doesn't mean jack**** anymore.

Their schooling is nowhere NEAR as much debt burdening or as long as MD or DO schooling is. Many of these RN programs can be done at a community college. BSN can be done at cheap local universities!

I don't mean to argue with you my man but let's be real. There are nurses with white coats that go by "doctor" all the time.

Our profession is being taken over by management companies and we will all be employees. There will be no private practice. Just in my area, a few family friends have been approached by hospitals buying out their practices and then they essentially become employees for the hospital. They already made their killing. So hospitals are taking over.

Call me crazy or whatever have you, but money makes the world go around.

Hospitals operate on profits, and the government has our money tied down because of bull**** Obamacare.

We will not be paid what we are worth.. but what the hospitals think we are worth.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I meant to state that there is less physician autonomy occurring and more teamwork required amongst midlevels now. Should have worded that more clearly. My bad.

Also, I am not counting undergrad as that is variable. I as well as a few people I graduated with completed our undergrad degree in 2.5 years (yes an actual bachelor's).

I am simply mentioning the time after getting your undergrad degree, which doesn't mean jack**** anymore.

Their schooling is nowhere NEAR as much debt burdening or as long as MD or DO schooling is. Many of these RN programs can be done at a community college. BSN can be done at cheap local universities!

I don't mean to argue with you my man but let's be real. There are nurses with white coats that go by "doctor" all the time.

Our profession is being taken over by management companies and we will all be employees. There will be no private practice. Just in my area, a few family friends have been approached by hospitals buying out their practices and then they essentially become employees for the hospital. They already made their killing. So hospitals are taking over.

Call me crazy or whatever have you, but money makes the world go around.

Hospitals operate on profits, and the government has our money tied down because of bull**** Obamacare.

We will not be paid what we are worth.. but what the hospitals think we are worth.

I actually agree with everything in this post.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I actually agree with everything in this post.

I'm glad we can have a reasonable discussion without resorting to name calling and can politely agree to disagree on a few topics. I have a feeling you'll do great on interviews.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

DOs want to pull out of the merger now because they realize we are being ****ed lol

So those spots are open to MDs now as well.

Many DO residency programs did not meet the cut nor did they even TRY to gain ACGME accreditation. They just decided it wouldn't be worth the hassle and many of them would rather shut down.

Most of these happened in surgical programs and a few primary care areas IIRC. Don't have the document with me but I'm sure other DO programs and other DO students can chime in.

Essentially, DO is the new route for primary care.

Is FM or IM worth $250,000-300,000 debt to you?

If the answer is yes, then come on in and join the osteopathic bandwagon!

If you are referencing the email that included the numbers that Gevitz was talking about then that had already been addressed by @hallowmann and the numbers of programs is very inaccurate.

Your posts are sensationalistic and not based in reality. No DO will have to "settle" for FM, IM post merger. There are a whole host of specialties that are very open to even the most average DO student now and will continue to be so post merger. Even fields like GS will be very obtainable for a slightly above average DO. Only the very elite fields will become slightly harder than they were before, which doesn't mean much because of how hard they were before hand.

Pulling out of the merger would be extremely stupid, and is only being spouted by a few (Aka. Gevitz) Your posts are the definition of fear-mongering.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

If you are referencing the email that included the numbers that Gevitz was talking about then that had already been addressed by @hallowmann and the numbers of programs is very inaccurate.

Your posts are sensationalistic and not based in reality. No DO will have to "settle" for FM, IM post merger. There are a whole host of specialties that are very open to even the most average DO student now and will continue to be so post merger. Even fields like GS will be very obtainable for a slightly above average DO. Only the very elite fields will become slightly harder than they were before, which doesn't mean much because of how hard they were before hand.

Pulling out of the merger would be extremely stupid, and is only being spouted by a few (Aka. Gevitz) Your posts are the definition of fear-mongering.

Damn.. u may be right!

What med school do you go to? What has your AOA chapter and dean of clinical affairs and clinical education discussed with you guys regarding this very topic that has not come from an online forum?

Maybe you can enlighten me.

 

[zero0]

DOs want to pull out of the merger now because they realize we are being ****ed lol

So those spots are open to MDs now as well.

Many DO residency programs did not meet the cut nor did they even TRY to gain ACGME accreditation. They just decided it wouldn't be worth the hassle and many of them would rather shut down.

Most of these happened in surgical programs and a few primary care areas IIRC. Don't have the document with me but I'm sure other DO programs and other DO students can chime in.

Essentially, DO is the new route for primary care.

Is FM or IM worth $250,000-300,000 debt to you?

If the answer is yes, then come on in and join the osteopathic bandwagon!

This is disturbing and unwelcome news. I knew that only roughly half of AOA programs applied for accreditation so far, but I kind of assumed all of them would at some point. I completely forgot that a number of programs basically said "yeah we're not even going to bother." If it turns out that the ones who haven't applied yet have no intention of doing so then we're looking at a huge loss in training positions as things stand.

That said, unless DO discrimination just magically disappears overnight, DO may very well become the degree of primary care in the not too distant future. What's more we may even see a drop in DO match percentages.

This means COCA will have to step in and start pulling accreditation or maybe even just turn things over to the LCME. By this point, the COMLEX would be long gone because everyone will likely have to take the USMLE if they expect to match anywhere half-decent past 2020 anyway.

The more I look into it, the more volatile things seem indeed. Pretty soon the sky will rain fire, the waters will turn brown, and then the zombies will come...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What exactly is it based off of? Initial review of the app?

I don't know if I even buy that. Even if I did, the ACGME made applying during the transition one of the easiest things in the world (i.e. there's literally no risk in submitting an app before you conform to the requirements - you only get charged 1 fee for the whole transition so programs can submit the apps as many times as they want without additional fees), and the AOA required that programs submit an app for accreditation by a deadline depending on the length of training in order for programs to continue taking residents during the transition (i.e. it incentivized longer DO programs to apply ASAP regardless of whether they were ready to conform to the requirements).

Now that's all assuming he isn't pulling that 30/38 number out of nowhere. For one, I have no idea what he's even basing it off of. I actually looked at the ACGME reports and this is what I gathered:

GS:
-34 programs applied
-11 were evaluated and have things the RRC wants changed (continued pre-accred)
-1 received initial ACGME accreditation right away
-It doesn't look like the 22 others were even evaluated yet, which makes sense because all but a handful applied less than a year ago (most <6mos ago)

Ortho:
-28 applied
-8 have continued pre-accreditation
-5 received initial accreditation right away
-15 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

Ophtho:
-2 applied
-1 has continued pre-accreditation
-1 hasn't been evaluated by the RRC yet

ENT:
-10 applied
-6 have continued pre-accreditation
-4 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

Urology:
-10 applied
-4 have continued pre-accreditation
-6 received initial accreditation right away

NS:
-7 applied
-2 have continued pre-accreditation
-5 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

So out of 89 surgical residencies that applied, only 48 were evaluated, 1/3 of those received ACGME initial accreditation right away basically without changing anything, and 2/3 have things the RRC wants changed.

First off, I still have no idea where he's getting 30/38, but unless 8 out of the 10 last programs that were reviewed received accreditation right away, his numbers are a bit suspect. Second off, I've already listed 2 huge incentives for programs to submit the apps before they're ready and there's pretty much no downside to it.

Of course there'll be a ton of programs that don't automatically fulfill all the ACGME requirements. They've been established for years and have never had to (technically they don't have to for another 3-4 yrs). That's the entire point of a transition period. Depending on the sites, it takes time for changes to be implemented, especially since for practically a year there was a question of whether the merger would even happen in the first place (because a group, of whom Gevitz was a very vocal member, vehemently opposed it for claims of maintaining our "DO destinctiveness").

Some programs won't make it, sure, but the ones that can't change to fulfill ACGME requirements over a 5 year transition really don't deserve to exist. I still think it'll be nowhere near his estimate of losing 30%+ of OGME.

Here's some additional info for other specialties people were scared will close:

Anesthesia:
-6 applied
-1 has continued pre-accreditation
-2 received initial accreditation right away
-3 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

Derm:
-9 applied
-3 have continued pre-accreditation
-3 received initial accreditation right away
-3 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

EM:
-27 applied
-4 have continued accreditation
-7 received initial accreditation right away
-16 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

Rads:
-9 applied
-3 have continued pre-accreditation
-3 received initial accreditation right away
-3 havn't been evaluated by the RRC yet

OB/Gyn:
-14 applied
-3 received initial accreditation
-11 haven't been evaluated by the RRC yet

And overall for all residencies:

OVERALL:
-236 applied
-55 have continued pre-accreditation
-56 received initial accreditation right away
-125 haven't been evaluated by the RRCs yet

Damn.. u may be right!

What med school do you go to? What has your AOA chapter and dean of clinical affairs and clinical education discussed with you guys regarding this very topic that has not come from an online forum?

Maybe you can enlighten me.

I don't need to go to med school or listen to a clinical dean to know how how to look at and interpret actual facts and numbers. https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

Quite frankly, your posts are garbage and not based in reality. Not to mention I know multiple DO students, at multiple schools, who are aiming for very competitive specialties and every single one of their opinions is different from your sky is falling nonsense. Just because I haven't matriculated yet doesn't make me stupid or a ***** and you some magical genius.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I don't need to go to med school or listen to a clinical dean to know how how to look at and interpret actual facts and numbers. https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/Report/18

Quite frankly, your posts are garbage and not based in reality. Not to mention I know multiple DO students, at multiple schools, who are aiming for very competitive specialties and every single one of their opinions is different from your sky is falling nonsense. Just because I haven't matriculated yet doesn't make me stupid or a ***** and you some magical genius.

Well... I'm sorry you feel that way.

Didn't mean to insinuate you were of inferior knowledge or anything. I apologize if you felt that way.

And of course they will have different opinions, they are merely hopeful at this point.

Less than 5-10% of DOs match into surgical programs. Maybe they will be the special snowflakes. Who knows?

I'm not a genius by any means, but please don't be so sensitive. You may want to check that before you start med school cause your patients will eat you alive lol

But sure dude. Believe what you want. Good luck with your cycle! You'll do great.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

This is disturbing and unwelcome news. I knew that only roughly half of AOA programs applied for accreditation so far, but I kind of assumed all of them would at some point. I completely forgot that a number of programs basically said "yeah we're not even going to bother." If it turns out that the ones who haven't applied yet have no intention of doing so then we're looking at a huge loss in training positions as things stand.

That said, unless DO discrimination just magically disappears overnight, DO may very well become the degree of primary care in the not too distant future. What's more we may even see a drop in DO match percentages.

This means COCA will have to step in and start pulling accreditation or maybe even just turn things over to the LCME. By this point, the COMLEX would be long gone because everyone will likely have to take the USMLE if they expect to match anywhere half-decent past 2020 anyway.

The more I look into it, the more volatile things seem indeed. Pretty soon the sky will rain fire, the waters will turn brown, and then the zombies will come...

If you plan on matching in 2020, you better plan on taking the USMLE.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well... I'm sorry you feel that way.

Didn't mean to insinuate you were of inferior knowledge or anything. I apologize if you felt that way.

And of course they will have different opinions, they are merely hopeful at this point.

Less than 5-10% of DOs match into surgical programs. Maybe they will be the special snowflakes. Who knows?

I'm not a genius by any means, but please don't be so sensitive. You may want to check that before you start med school cause your patients will eat you alive lol

But sure dude. Believe what you want. Good luck with your cycle! You'll do great.

Don't know where you got that I was being sensitive, you made a snarky statement and I called you on it. That simple. Been dealing with patients for years and haven't been eaten alive yet.

My whole point is that sitting here and telling everybody that DOs are screwed is a complete overstatement. There will obviously be outcomes from the merger that will negatively affect some DOs, but claiming that only the best of the best will get anything other than FM or community IM is absolutely fantastical and unfounded in any facts. Let's be rational and not claim our lives are over until actual fire starts raining from the sky. Not a single person has a flying clue how this whole thing will actually shake out, and anyone who makes definitive claims about how things will be are talking out there rear.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If you plan on matching in 2020, you better plan on taking the USMLE.

I agree with this 100%. It's ridiculous some schools tell their students to avoid the golden standard of medical board exams.

 

[zero0]

So it looks like Dr. Buser (current president of the AOA for those of you who don't know) wrote a direct response to Gevitz's recent analysis.

Here's my favorite part: "Dr. Gevitz had no answers two years ago, and he has no answers today, for the students, interns and residents who would have been shut out of fellowships and ACGME training opportunities if we maintained a separate path. We are proud to have collaboratively designed a solution to avoid this situation."

 

[Goro]

About 10-15% of MD grads match into Gen Surg programs, so this is a Surgery thing, not a DO vs MD thing.

Less than 5-10% of DOs match into surgical programs. Maybe they will be the special snowflakes. Who knows?

 

[getfat]

I agree with this 100%. It's ridiculous some schools tell their students to avoid the golden standard of medical board exams.

+1 to this. I had one interview last month at a school that brags about board preparation. I asked about any resources for the USMLE. I was asked why I felt the need to take it. Really awkward.

A lot of people are on different sides of this spectrum regarding this issue.

If you are an excellent student, you will likely apply to more competitive residencies/locations and need to be directly comparable to MDs.

If you are below the bell curve in the class, you need to focus on COMLEX only. Failing USMLE or worse failing both is something that could put you in a terrible situation.

Edit: Words

 

[hallowmann]

This is disturbing and unwelcome news. I knew that only roughly half of AOA programs applied for accreditation so far, but I kind of assumed all of them would at some point. I completely forgot that a number of programs basically said "yeah we're not even going to bother." If it turns out that the ones who haven't applied yet have no intention of doing so then we're looking at a huge loss in training positions as things stand.

That said, unless DO discrimination just magically disappears overnight, DO may very well become the degree of primary care in the not too distant future. What's more we may even see a drop in DO match percentages.

This means COCA will have to step in and start pulling accreditation or maybe even just turn things over to the LCME. By this point, the COMLEX would be long gone because everyone will likely have to take the USMLE if they expect to match anywhere half-decent past 2020 anyway.

The more I look into it, the more volatile things seem indeed. Pretty soon the sky will rain fire, the waters will turn brown, and then the zombies will come...

Yeah, a lot going on in this thread, and I don't have time to go through it all, but here are some things to keep in mind.

Programs have years (5 of them) to transition. They don't all have to apply overnight. The AOA put a deadline on programs so (1) if they had no plan to switch they wouldn't take residents and then leave them in the lurch and (2) to prevent all the programs from waiting to the last minute and running out of time.

As of right now, none of the programs have reached their AOA sanctioned deadlines to apply, so they still can until Jan (longer programs - 5+) or a later date (3, 4, etc.).

As of right now, 15 mos into the 60 month transition, 1/3 of all the AOA programs have applied for accreditation. The number will keep going up. Every few days more programs are applying.

It is very unlikely that many programs will just throw up their hands and say, "whelp, its too hard to even apply, let's get rid of our residency programs". More than likely any programs that are giving up, are programs that were already considering dropping their residencies (something that actually happens regularly), and they are using the merger as a good time to peace out.

As far as them attaining accreditation after they applied, you have it from a program director on here who basically said its very unlikely for the ACGME not to bend over backwards to give programs chance after chance of fulfilling the requirements. It benefits no one for programs to shut down, and without real deficiencies, I doubt many will fail to make the transition.

Keep in mind that everything I said is based on the current state of things and more or less my speculation and observation of how things tend to work out. It might not go down that way.

No point worrying about it though until you get there. Focus on doing well, taking the USMLE and working hard to be competitive. If you do that, regardless of what will happen in the future, you won't have regrets. DOs will continue to specialize as they've done in the NRMP match all along.

 

[Goro]

I am appalled that someone would have acted that way to you! Even the "true believers" at my school know that the majority of our grads to to ACGME residencies, and as such, the majority of students take both exams.

On the other hand, USMLE and COMLEX are two different animals. I am planning on taking USMLE to see what you're up against (yes, we Faculty can do that). I took COMLEX maybe 2-3 years ago and write for NBOME as well, so I know what inside their heads. I do want to take it again. A bonus is that I can have a nice lunch on the school's dime. There are some decent restaurants near the closest Prometric center.

+1 to this. I had one interview last month at a school that brags about board preparation. I asked about any resources for the USMLE. I was asked why I felt the need to take it. Really awkward.

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

I am appalled that someone would have acted that way to you! Even the "true believers" at my school know that the majority of our grads to to ACGME residencies, and as such, the majority of students take both exams.

On the other hand, USMLE and COMLEX are two different animals. I am planning on taking USMLE to see what you're up against (yes, we Faculty can do that). I took COMLEX maybe 2-3 years ago and write for NBOME as well, so I know what inside their heads. I do want to take it again. A bonus is that I can have a nice lunch on the school's dime. There are some decent restaurants near the closest Prometric center.

Good luck Goro! Let us know how you do

 

[ATPsynthase123]

If you are referencing the email that included the numbers that Gevitz was talking about then that had already been addressed by @hallowmann and the numbers of programs is very inaccurate.

Your posts are sensationalistic and not based in reality. No DO will have to "settle" for FM, IM post merger. There are a whole host of specialties that are very open to even the most average DO student now and will continue to be so post merger. Even fields like GS will be very obtainable for a slightly above average DO. Only the very elite fields will become slightly harder than they were before, which doesn't mean much because of how hard they were before hand.

Pulling out of the merger would be extremely stupid, and is only being spouted by a few (Aka. Gevitz) Your posts are the definition of fear-mongering.

Don't argue with idiots. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.


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[ATPsynthase123]

I am appalled that someone would have acted that way to you! Even the "true believers" at my school know that the majority of our grads to to ACGME residencies, and as such, the majority of students take both exams.

On the other hand, USMLE and COMLEX are two different animals. I am planning on taking USMLE to see what you're up against (yes, we Faculty can do that). I took COMLEX maybe 2-3 years ago and write for NBOME as well, so I know what inside their heads. I do want to take it again. A bonus is that I can have a nice lunch on the school's dime. There are some decent restaurants near the closest Prometric center.

Same thing happened to me at one of my interviews. I asked the dean of clinical education if post merger we should still plan on taking both COMLEX and USMLE (the dean of pre-clinical education basically told us to study for and plan on taking both exams). She replied "there is no merger. That isn't a merger. Why would you even want to attend a residency that does not accept your exam? If you want to take an allopathic exam, go to an allopathic school." From that point she went on a sensationalist anti MD rant. It wasn't really a hostile interaction, but it certainly wasn't pleasant.

Luckily for me this was in the post interview presentation and I had my name tag off. I really liked the school up until that point, and that really turned me off on the school. I would still attend the school, but it is not in my top 3 like it was.


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[Wjldenver]

Same thing happened to me at one of my interviews. I asked the dean of clinical education if post merger we should still plan on taking both COMLEX and USMLE (the dean of pre-clinical education basically told us to study for and plan on taking both exams). She replied "there is no merger. That isn't a merger. Why would you even want to attend a residency that does not accept your exam? If you want to take an allopathic exam, go to an allopathic school." From that point she went on a sensationalist anti MD rant. It wasn't really a hostile interaction, but it certainly wasn't pleasant.

Luckily for me this was in the post interview presentation and I had my name tag off. I really liked the school up until that point, and that really turned me off on the school. I would still attend the school, but it is not in my top 3 like it was.


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That Dean of Clinical Education sounds like a *****. I would not go to that school unless it is your only choice.

 

[68PGunner]

They should just burn that COMLEX exam into oblivion. Personally, I plan to take USMLE, destroy it, and match into an ACGME residency.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Most DO schools have something about producing primary care physicians in their mission/vision statements. It's right there in front of you.
If you know for sure you don't want to do primary care, honestly, work harder, do something and go MD. It's not that complicated. Stop complaining and blaming it on the AOA.
The merger happened and this will lock more DOs into primary care. That's the reality and anyone that says otherwise is delusional or uninformed. But that's fine. Medical education evolves constantly.
If there are DOs that do great and want to specialize or do something outside of primary care, that's great too, if they have the grades/scores/ECs for it, they will have some protected spots from old AOA programs or go ACGME as they have been in the past.
Just read the school's mission statements. These schools are not designed to produce the next Russell Nelson or Jean-Michel Dubernard and we know that when we apply but somehow we get in and feel entitled to the specialty of our dreams and then complain when things like the merger happen or when 3/4ths of XYZ COM places students into family medicine.

 

[ERinspired]

Same thing happened to me at one of my interviews. I asked the dean of clinical education if post merger we should still plan on taking both COMLEX and USMLE (the dean of pre-clinical education basically told us to study for and plan on taking both exams). She replied "there is no merger. That isn't a merger. Why would you even want to attend a residency that does not accept your exam? If you want to take an allopathic exam, go to an allopathic school." From that point she went on a sensationalist anti MD rant. It wasn't really a hostile interaction, but it certainly wasn't pleasant.

Luckily for me this was in the post interview presentation and I had my name tag off. I really liked the school up until that point, and that really turned me off on the school. I would still attend the school, but it is not in my top 3 like it was.


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I also had a similar experience as @getfat during a Q&A part of one of my interviews. I wonder if we are all talking about the same school.


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[ATPsynthase123]

I also had a similar experience as @getfat during a Q&A part of one of my interviews. I wonder if we are all talking about the same school.


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I really don't want to say, it was a good school other than that one person.


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[AnatomyGrey12]

The merger happened and this will lock more DOs into primary care. That's the reality and anyone that says otherwise is delusional or uninformed

Your post was good except for this.... When will people realize there are a ton of specialties that are very open to even the most average to below average DOs? Yeah the people with board failures and other red flags might get stuck in PC, but other than that there really isn't anyone who should feel forced into PC. The world isn't divided into family medicine doctors and neurosurgeons.

 

[Promethean]

Regarding programs not seeking Osteopathic Distinction... so, I've spoken to more than a half dozen current AOA FM program directors regarding their programs and their intentions with regard to the merger.

Their first priority is to jump through the hoops to pursue ACGME accreditation. Only then will they begin to go for Osteopathic distinction. This actually makes a lot of sense. It is foolish to plan your dinner order at a trendy bistro when you haven't even secured the reservation. They fully intend to apply for distinction once they have ensured that they are going to continue to have a program. They are still figuring out exactly what they will want from MD applicants to their traditionally osteopathic programs. It is a process and we will work through it as a profession. Osteopathic medicine has faced greater challenges in the past, and come through, because we do have something to offer which is valuable to patients. If the results of the merger are not acceptable to us, then we will work through that. Solutions that work for everyone don't just happen... as my friend @sb247 quotes in his signature "Gardens are not made by singing 'Oh, how beautiful,' and sitting in the shade. - Kipling"