MD vs. DO thread-- Final Resting Place

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I just wanted to say this whole md vs do debate is pretty dumb. I could probably have a DO physician right now and I wouldn't know the difference. I don't know many patients that scrutinize diplomas before they ask for your services - quality of services speaks louder than anything & as long as you are a good doctor you will never have any problems.

Unfortunately, I never knew DO schools existed until I joined SDN (which, if there any bias towards DO does exist, the root is from people never knowing about it). My premed program never even discussed it as an option and when I looked up the details of our program it was listed as a small blurb under alternative paths. If I had known about DO schools before I applied I think i definitely would have because their philosophy suits my interest more. best of luck to you all and I hope to meet you in residency maybe!
 
You only can borrow around $250k from the government at 6.5% yearly interest, and anything additional will have to come from a public sector, which can charge a lot, like 16% or more.

You'll probably graduate with atleast a 240k debt, which, at 6.5%, would be 16-17k a year in interest. It'd be kind of hard to pay off if you end up in family medicine with a 150k salary and a family of your own.

So - make up with your dad.
 
If you get accepted to med schools you will have loans to cover both tuition and living expenses. It would be nice if the school was inexpensive. If it comes down to choosing MD vs DO, pick the school that has the lower tuition cost and the nice location (whether it is closer to home or near the beach somewhere).

BTW you don't get the whole 250K or whatever at 6.5%. You get 8.5K at 6.5-6.8% and the rest are unsubsidized and private.
 
psy said:
BTW you don't get the whole 250K or whatever at 6.5%. You get 8.5K at 6.5-6.8% and the rest are unsubsidized and private.
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You sure? I thought the first 8.5k was 0% interest, and the rest was at 6.5%. But I never really paid attention during those FA talks.
 
LOL I'd wish it was like that...I really do. subsidized means that the government pays the interest while you are in school and training so essentially it is 0% at that time. Once you finished though, that interest gets added on. The rest of the loans will have their interest accruing while you are in school but you won't have to pay it back till you are out of school. That means about 2-3K payment per month for the next 10+ years depending on your loan amount. It's doable...but with the interest it can balloon up to 400-500K by the time you pay it all off.
 
I'm pretty sure that it was 8.5k subsidized (govt pays interest), then 6.8% interest on unsubsidized (forgot the limit for med students), then the rest is Grad PLUS, which is your cost of attendance (COA) minus the amount you already got in loans.

Correct me if i'm wrong. 😛
 
planetvenus87 said:
Hey there,
I have a question...I dont understand why people look down on D.O. med schools...I LOVE the way Osteopathic medicine is and I think that it is the best route for me...but my parents are completely against it and I dont understand why...maybe its because of all the M.D. doctors they are friends with😀 Can you guys help me figure out how to explain to them that D.O. is just as good as M.D.? Ive been trying everything and still they are pushing me to go to M.D. and frankly I dont want too. Any help would be much appreciated 🙂
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I had similar problems with my parents. They had never heard of the DO profession, so rightfully so they were skeptical when I first told them I was applying. When they realized that no matter what they said I was going to apply anyway, they started to come around. The thing that really did it was when my mom had elbow problems from playing tennis. I told her to go to the DO orthopedic surgeon I was shadowing, and she loved him. Never heard another complaint after that.
 
Yea I just checked. You are right. The first 8.5k is subsidized and the rest of federal loans are at 6.8% unsub. And then you have private loans if you need more.
 
DrLyss,
Thanks for the reply 🙂 How are you going to go about this? lol I know...it will be very painful...but very very much worth it 🙂 Are you going for M.D. or D.O. btw...if you dont mind me asking...🙂
 
psy said:
Yea I just checked. You are right. The first 8.5k is subsidized and the rest of federal loans are at 6.8% unsub. And then you have private loans if you need more.
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federal loans should cover the costs (most of it will be unsubsidized 🙁), you will probably only need to take out private loans if you go to a really pricey DO school. Oh and by pricey I mean pricey for DO schools, not for med schools in general 😀
 
Federal loans cover up to (as of now) about $40,500 or so. ~$8,500 in subsidized and ~$32,500 unsubsidized. This covers maybe tuition at most private MD schools and public MD schools for OOS students (I don't know all the figures for DO schools but I know they're not cheap, and tend to be on par with private MD schools more or less). Then you have Cost of Living expenses. Your school will calculate what they estimate the "average" cost of living is in your area (usually they overshoot it, which is a good thing), which then dictates how much you're allowed to borrow in total from the government (~$40,500) and Grad PLUS loans (up to the school's COA total, minus what you borrowed from the feds). Private sector loans should be a VERY LAST, THIRD resort.

So let's say your school costs $40,000 a year in tuition/fees, and your school estimates your cost of living expenses to be $20,000 a year. This means if you're eligible for max federal aid (and don't have the ability to pay any part of your way), you take out $40,500 in federal loans (sub and unsub), and $19,500 max from GradPLUS loans (or less if you know you'll be able to live on less than the school estimates, which is usually the case).
 
Semicolon said:
Your brother's father?...

...Isn't that just your father? lol

My girlfriend's mother said the same thing to me - "DO's are not real doctors" (the audacity of some people!). However, I realized that there's no sense in debating with someone who is too stubborn to have an open mind (or who has no knowledge of the medical field).

I'm just lucky my brother is a DO. That cleared up a lot of issues for me in my family. 🙂
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Lol No, he's not my father. I actually called my mom and ask her why in the hell did she have a child with a complete and total idiot.😀 Of course she wised up and married my father😀.

Edit: In theory he's my half-brother.
 
I'll never understand why some people are crazy about the MD vs DO thing. It's funny too because I'm 99% sure the people who pull the -not real doctors - have 0 clue that there are two different degrees for various other health professions as well - ie DDS vs DMD. Here's a few points I've developed over the years, but granted I never really had anyone backlash against me because my PCP- who has taken care of my entire extended family for 30 years - is a DO so they've always known:

A. I'll never understand why this is more than a 30 second conversation: 'Oh what's a DO?' 'In the US there are two accredited paths to becoming a fully licensed physician, the allopathic (MD) degree and the osteopathic (DO) degree, each have similiar admission standards, complete medical school and residency the same way and both practice side by side in the same fields every single day. The man difference comes from a slight, fading difference in philosophy and two different governing bodies that have never merged.' ' Oh, okay.'

B. 'So what are you doing with life? ' 'Oh, I go to MEDICAL school to become a doctor.' End of discussion there

C. Most of the people who claim the 'not real doctor' thing haven't achieved ANYTHING in life close to the professional status of a physician. So when you're uncle Frank, the plumber, tells you that DO's aren't doctors over Christmas ... go ahead and laugh.

D. You're parents may be weird about it at first - like I said, I never had this problem - but once they realize it's all the same, they aren't going to care.

E. Such a HUGE percent of people see DOs everyday and have no clue because they can't tell the difference. Like i said, my PCP is a DO, and I didn't even realize it until I was in the middle of college.

Don't sweat it, do what you want.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I'll never understand why some people are crazy about the MD vs DO thing. It's funny too because I'm 99% sure the people who pull the -not real doctors - have 0 clue that there are two different degrees for various other health professions as well - ie DDS vs DMD. Here's a few points I've developed over the years, but granted I never really had anyone backlash against me because my PCP- who has taken care of my entire extended family for 30 years - is a DO so they've always known:

A. I'll never understand why this is more than a 30 second conversation: 'Oh what's a DO?' 'In the US there are two accredited paths to becoming a fully licensed physician, the allopathic (MD) degree and the osteopathic (DO) degree, each have similiar admission standards, complete medical school and residency the same way and both practice side by side in the same fields every single day. The man difference comes from a slight, fading difference in philosophy and two different governing bodies that have never merged.' ' Oh, okay.'

B. 'So what are you doing with life? ' 'Oh, I go to MEDICAL school to become a doctor.' End of discussion there

C. Most of the people who claim the 'not real doctor' thing haven't achieved ANYTHING in life close to the professional status of a physician. So when you're uncle Frank, the plumber, tells you that DO's aren't doctors over Christmas ... go ahead and laugh.

D. You're parents may be weird about it at first - like I said, I never had this problem - but once they realize it's all the same, they aren't going to care.

E. Such a HUGE percent of people see DOs everyday and have no clue because they can't tell the difference. Like i said, my PCP is a DO, and I didn't even realize it until I was in the middle of college.

Don't sweat it, do what you want.
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Agreed.👍
 
I would think the ONLY difference between DO's and MD's these days is that DO's cannot practice internationally in all countries.

Aside from that, all the same. 'Cept OMM, but that's debatable considering how many DO's actually utilize it.
 
MDs smell funny while DOs use lots of perfume and cologne. That settled it for me. 👍
 
JaggerPlate said:
I'll never understand why some people are crazy about the MD vs DO thing. It's funny too because I'm 99% sure the people who pull the -not real doctors - have 0 clue that there are two different degrees for various other health professions as well - ie DDS vs DMD. Here's a few points I've developed over the years, but granted I never really had anyone backlash against me because my PCP- who has taken care of my entire extended family for 30 years - is a DO so they've always known:

A. I'll never understand why this is more than a 30 second conversation: 'Oh what's a DO?' 'In the US there are two accredited paths to becoming a fully licensed physician, the allopathic (MD) degree and the osteopathic (DO) degree, each have similiar admission standards, complete medical school and residency the same way and both practice side by side in the same fields every single day. The man difference comes from a slight, fading difference in philosophy and two different governing bodies that have never merged.' ' Oh, okay.'

B. 'So what are you doing with life? ' 'Oh, I go to MEDICAL school to become a doctor.' End of discussion there

C. Most of the people who claim the 'not real doctor' thing haven't achieved ANYTHING in life close to the professional status of a physician. So when you're uncle Frank, the plumber, tells you that DO's aren't doctors over Christmas ... go ahead and laugh.

D. You're parents may be weird about it at first - like I said, I never had this problem - but once they realize it's all the same, they aren't going to care.

E. Such a HUGE percent of people see DOs everyday and have no clue because they can't tell the difference. Like i said, my PCP is a DO, and I didn't even realize it until I was in the middle of college.

Don't sweat it, do what you want.
Click to expand...

Great post, but I want to add extra emphasis on point B. This statement is not only true, but will save you a lot of confusion and perhaps some unnecessary and unwarranted family drama at the next wedding/reunion/holiday. It's still not a big deal, but I don't understand why anyone would think differently enough about what they're doing to say so.
 
I know the MD vs DO debate has been going on here forever. But I have to say that the perspective I get on SDN differs from the real world. Many people here go "the letters behind my name don't matter" and I will agree with that. But I am now in a position where I need to pick between a DO school and a MD school. Through my volunteering I have the opportunity to talk to many residents and I have yet to hear one say "pick the DO school." Most of these were internal medicine *residents*, not old time MDs who don't give much respect to DOs. They all say that DOs are fine doctors but when it comes to getting a residency they are at a disadvantage. Yes, there are residencies that are only available to DOs, but there are only few of those. Some residents even say that is is unfortunate that DOs have a harder time but it is what it is. Plus. the majority of patients also don't know who DOs are.

Also, it seems to me that outside the SDN pre-osteo board, applying to DO is a back-up for most people. Doesn't help the MD vs DO stuff. 🙁

So yeah.. hard decision. The real world isn't as peachy as the politically correct SDN.
 
Funny. I had the opposite experience. I picked DO and am *SO* happy that I did. My family doc (whose an MD) suggested I might like DO (before I even applied. I didn't even know what one was before that).

So I mean...guess it just depends on who you ask.


JamesBond15 said:
I know the MD vs DO debate has been going on here forever. But I have to say that the perspective I get on SDN differs from the real world. Many people here go "the letters behind my name don't matter" and I will agree with that. But I am now in a position where I need to pick between a DO school and a MD school. Through my volunteering I have the opportunity to talk to many residents and I have yet to hear one say "pick the DO school." Most of these were internal medicine *residents*, not old time MDs who don't give much respect to DOs. They all say that DOs are fine doctors but when it comes to getting a residency they are at a disadvantage. Yes, there are residencies that are only available to DOs, but there are only few of those. Some residents even say that is is unfortunate that DOs have a harder time but it is what it is. Plus. the majority of patients also don't know who DOs are.

Also, it seems to me that outside the SDN pre-osteo board, applying to DO is a back-up for most people. Doesn't help the MD vs DO stuff. 🙁

So yeah.. hard decision. The real world isn't as peachy as the politically correct SDN.
Click to expand...
 
JamesBond15 said:
Plus. the majority of patients also don't know who DOs are.
Click to expand...

This should be in the other MD/DO thread....

This is true, but most don't make assumptions about what they aren't either. Most of the public doesn't even know the difference when they go to their check-ups. My school's Doc is a DO and I started bringing it up with my friends to see what they know about it and not only did they not know that he was a DO, they had no clue what I was talking about. I feel like most people don't know the difference, and if they do it has probably been explained to them so its not really an issue. Except for the old timers..but they are going extinct anyways.

Look at the match lists for the DO schools and see what you think. those are hard facts compared to what residents' subjective opinions are about matching ability.
 
Bacchus said:
Not all schools are created equally...what two schools?
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Don't like to give away too much info about myself. But both schools are good. Besides, most outside the DO world don't really know which DO schools are good.
 
singinfifi said:
Funny. I had the opposite experience. I picked DO and am *SO* happy that I did. My family doc (whose an MD) suggested I might like DO (before I even applied. I didn't even know what one was before that).

So I mean...guess it just depends on who you ask.
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I would certainly agree with that. But, the west coast isn't very DO friendly.
 
To me it sounds like you have your mind made up.

Also, patients don't care about the MD/DO debate....only premeds do. I have never heard a patient ask a doctor what kind of doctor they are. When you go to the dentist, do you ask if they are a DDS or a DMD? I don't, and I am guessing most people don't, unless they have a specific interest in the field.
 
I know these two people, they are brother and sister, and they both applied to ACGME surgical residencies. Last year, both graduated - the brother graduated from a DO school and the sister graduated from a MD school. Their pre-clinical and clinical grades were about the same, and their USMLE's were about the same (I never asked the specifics), but the MD sister got 25 interviews and the brother got 16 interviews. However, the bro also got 8 DO surgical residency interviews, too.

So take this little story for what its worth. They both matched ACGME, btw.
 
cliquesh said:
I know these two people, they are brother and sister, and they both applied to ACGME surgical residencies. Last year, both graduated - the brother graduated from a DO school and the sister graduated from a MD school. Their pre-clinical and clinical grades were about the same, and their USMLE's were about the same (I never asked the specifics), but the MD sister got 25 interviews and the brother got 16 interviews. However, the bro also got 8 DO surgical residency interviews, too.

So take this little story for what its worth. They both matched ACGME, btw.
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Slightly off topic, but how did he get 8 DO surgery interviews and not match? Once he got a match in the DO world he would have been automatically withdrawn from the allo match...
 
I know he only went to a few of the interviews, like two of them, but i didn't ask if he withdrew or didn't rank them. I heard the story from his sister, so i don't know how it exactly went down.
 
cliquesh said:
I know he only went to a few of the interviews, like two of them, but i didn't ask if he withdrew or didn't rank them. I heard the story from his sister, so i don't know how it exactly went down.
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Ahh that explains it 🙂 I guess if you don't go to the interview chances are you won't match lol. I was just wondering because if he actually did go to 8 chances are he would have matched at one of them.
 
Is there a consensus among DO students how many AOA surgery/radiology/other competitive speciality invites you need to probably match?

For MD's, the magic number seems to be 10.
 
cliquesh said:
Is there a consensus among DO students how many AOA surgery/radiology/other competitive speciality invites you need to probably match?

For MD's, the magic number seems to be 10.
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9






Honestly, I have no idea. Why would it be much different???
 
Because there are fewer DO programs than MDs. For instance, there are 40 general surgery DO programs, but 241 surgery ACGME programs. So if an MD has to get 10 interviews out of 241 programs to match, its not that bad. But if a DO needs to get 10 interviews out of 40 programs, that's pretty rough.
 
I guess what I'm trying to ask is:

How many AOA surgical residencies interviews does a DO student need to get to probably match?

From what I have gathered from MD students, the general consensus is that you need about 10 interviews to "guaranteed" a spot. So, since there are 241 ACGME programs and you need 10 interviews, you need to interview at 5% of the programs to get a spot.

So does a DO going the AOA route only need about 2 interviews to match, because 2 out of 40 is 5% also. You get me? Maybe DO students don't talk about these things. hah.
 
cliquesh said:
I guess what I'm trying to ask is:

How many AOA surgical residencies interviews does a DO student need to get to probably match?

From what I have gathered from MD students, the general consensus is that you need about 10 interviews to "guaranteed" a spot. So, since there are 241 ACGME programs and you need 10 interviews, you need to interview at 5% of the programs to get a spot.

So does a DO going the AOA route only need about 2 interviews to match, because 2 out of 40 is 5% also. You get me? Maybe DO students don't talk about these things. hah.
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I understand what you are asking and, quite frankly, I've never thought about it. My guess is there is no "magic number" b/c you have osteopathic students that interview at both allopathic and osteopathic residencies...just too many variables. To be honest, I don't think it is that useful of a stat, just another thing for students to worry about. I think the most important thing is do do well on clinicals and not be a tool.....you do that, your residency will come.
 
JamesBond15 said:
I know the MD vs DO debate has been going on here forever. But I have to say that the perspective I get on SDN differs from the real world. Many people here go "the letters behind my name don't matter" and I will agree with that. But I am now in a position where I need to pick between a DO school and a MD school. Through my volunteering I have the opportunity to talk to many residents and I have yet to hear one say "pick the DO school." Most of these were internal medicine *residents*, not old time MDs who don't give much respect to DOs. They all say that DOs are fine doctors but when it comes to getting a residency they are at a disadvantage. Yes, there are residencies that are only available to DOs, but there are only few of those. Some residents even say that is is unfortunate that DOs have a harder time but it is what it is. Plus. the majority of patients also don't know who DOs are.

Also, it seems to me that outside the SDN pre-osteo board, applying to DO is a back-up for most people. Doesn't help the MD vs DO stuff. 🙁

So yeah.. hard decision. The real world isn't as peachy as the politically correct SDN.
Click to expand...

MDs from low-tier schools also face the SAME problem. One of the biggest myth is that just because you have MD that you'll have a leg up. I disagree. The school you went to matter more the MD itself.If you are applying for competitive residency in top programs(Harvard, Duke, Columbia), lots of students from low-tiers schools get overlooked all the time in favor of students from top 15.......even though they may have similar stats.

If you are interested in internal medicine, family medicine ,EM, anas etc then your DO shouldn't matter. Lots of DOs have matched in top programs in these specialties. However, if you interested in integrated plastics, the DO student and the MD from podunk university both face the same uphill battle.
 
andexterouss said:
MDs from low-tier schools also face the SAME problem. One of the biggest myth is that just because you have MD that you'll have a leg up. I disagree. The school you went to matter more the MD itself.If you are applying for competitive residency in top programs(Harvard, Duke, Columbia), lots of students from low-tiers schools get overlooked all the time in favor of students from top 15.......even though they may have similar stats.

If you are interested in internal medicine, family medicine ,EM, anas etc then your DO shouldn't matter. Lots of DOs have matched in top programs in these specialties. However, if you interested in integrated plastics, the DO student and the MD from podunk university both face the same uphill battle.
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I agree with this post.

People will look at the school the person comes from and those schools that aren't in the highest rank maybe overlooked. There are also other factors that help and hinder applicants for specialties and you could go on and on about it forever....
 
andexterouss said:
MDs from low-tier schools also face the SAME problem. One of the biggest myth is that just because you have MD that you'll have a leg up. I disagree. The school you went to matter more the MD itself.If you are applying for competitive residency in top programs(Harvard, Duke, Columbia), lots of students from low-tiers schools get overlooked all the time in favor of students from top 15.......even though they may have similar stats.

If you are interested in internal medicine, family medicine ,EM, anas etc then your DO shouldn't matter. Lots of DOs have matched in top programs in these specialties. However, if you interested in integrated plastics, the DO student and the MD from podunk university both face the same uphill battle.
Click to expand...


Completely agree. Look at match lists/pass rates of lowest tier MD schools, like Meharry, and then look at CCOM or PCOM. That'll highlight the point right there.

Anyway, I'm tired of this discussion. When can this be done? 🙂
 
premedfromNV said:
Bacchus,

What if you had to choose between KCOM and Rosalind Franklin? What factors would you consider to help make your decision?
Click to expand...
I'm not familiar enough with their programs to make a decision. However, I would look at location, technology, access to healthcare opportunities, networking opportuntities, costs, curriculum, etc.
 
While the two of you are bickering, Ohh no! Do I go MD? or DO?.... The DC (for the past 20 years) surpassed both with virtually the same curricula but dominates in the heavy hitters: basic sciences, diagnosis, pathology, etc. by 300 hours (4800 hrs. DC vs 4500 hrs. MD/DO) The Dept. of Health and Human Services backs this fact. Each year more people are choosing the DC as their PCP.

Just be happy to serve as an MD or DO or consider DC school.
 
PT Pete said:
While the two of you are bickering, Ohh no! Do I go MD? or DO?.... The DC (for the past 20 years) surpassed both with virtually the same curricula but dominates in the heavy hitters: basic sciences, diagnosis, pathology, etc. by 300 hours (4800 hrs. DC vs 4500 hrs. MD/DO) The Dept. of Health and Human Services backs this fact.
Click to expand...

Um...okay...but the first two years mean very little in actual clinical practice. Everyone knows that you begin to learn medicine when you hit the clinical stuff, particularly when you do your residency. Everything is just preparation for residency. Having more or less hours in pre-clinical classwork isn't going to make or break you, or give you some kind of advantage in your clinical work.

DC's don't learn or practice the same medical model that DO's/MD's do and they aren't held to the same standard of care in the treatment of patients. The fundamental approach is different. You can't compare the two in such a manner. It doesn't mean much to say that you have more hours of such and such. I won't argue about better than, or what not, but suffice it to say that it's not comparable.

Each year more people are choosing the DC as their PCP.
Click to expand...

This isn't the right thread for rebutting, but are you suggesting that this is a good thing? I see some issues with that. In any case, this isn't the time nor place to discuss it. Moving on.
 
andexterouss said:
MDs from low-tier schools also face the SAME problem. One of the biggest myth is that just because you have MD that you'll have a leg up. I disagree. The school you went to matter more the MD itself.If you are applying for competitive residency in top programs(Harvard, Duke, Columbia), lots of students from low-tiers schools get overlooked all the time in favor of students from top 15.......even though they may have similar stats.

If you are interested in internal medicine, family medicine ,EM, anas etc then your DO shouldn't matter. Lots of DOs have matched in top programs in these specialties. However, if you interested in integrated plastics, the DO student and the MD from podunk university both face the same uphill battle.
Click to expand...

I disagree...Compare the match lists for any non-HBC medical school and any DO school and see what you come up with. Hell there hasnt even been a handful of DO matches in ACGME ortho in the past 5 years.


Semicolon said:
Am I missing something? What's a DC? :eyebrow:
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DC= a chiropractor...

A non-physician with a flawed fundamental model being the PCP? That sounds like a good idea.

* I do support chiropractics as a therapy for LBP. For anything else, especially primary care... no
 
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