MD vs DVM and free time

[Faunatalie]

Hi, I'm currently a pre-med sophomore who has been on the fence about human medicine and vet medicine for the past few years.
On one hand, I'm a competitive student who would enjoy being a physician. Specifically, I have my eyes set on ER medicine. Though I know that that is likely to change.
On the other hand, animals have been my passion since I was a little girl. Being a vet has always been my dream career--i know that I would love every second of being a vet. However, specifically I think I would ultimately want to be a zoo vet, which is notoriously difficult (basically, I'd have to kill off someone for their position).
The thing is, after doing much research on vet school, I found that vets have an awful income-to-debt ratio. Money isn't a gigantic factor here, but I would be lying if I said i didnt care about that. And I found that many vets would never recommend their careers to others, and think that the turnaround just isn't worth it.
On another note, I think when I'm a bit older I'll value my personal time highly-I don't need a ton of free time, but I would like to have children (and actually be there for birthday parties), and be able to go hiking and travel every now and then.
I understand that as a doctor most of my life will be consumed by being a doctor. And I think that I will enjoy this. But I do have reservations.

[To doctors] how hard is it to be a good parent/spouse and have time left for occasional hobbies?
[To others] what advice is there to help sway me one way or the other?

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[WhatsUpPup]

EM has pretty decent hours. The advice you will get here is to get some clinical experience to see if this is something that you truly want to do for the rest of you life.

 

[that redhead]

i know that I would love every second of being a vet.

How do you know this? If you haven't already, start getting some time with a vet to see what it's like. FWIW, I don't think anyone loves every single second of being a vet, even those of us who like our jobs.

However, specifically I think I would ultimately want to be a zoo vet, which is notoriously difficult (basically, I'd have to kill off someone for their position).

Yep. And the boarding process for ACZM is crazy rigorous, requiring a TON of time and training. Again, though, without shadowing, how do you know what kind of vet you would or would not want to be?

The thing is, after doing much research on vet school, I found that vets have an awful income-to-debt ratio. Money isn't a gigantic factor here, but I would be lying if I said i didnt care about that.

Very true. Many of us say that if you could be happy doing anything else, do that. Vet med is really struggling with this issue right now with no appreciable solution in sight. And with the AVMA only just now coming around to the idea that there IS a problem. Money is an important factor, especially if you want to have children and travel, etc.

And I found that many vets would never recommend their careers to others, and think that the turnaround just isn't worth it.

I wouldn't tell people NOT to be a veterinarian, but the struggles of debt:income are very real and you need a plan in place for that. Again, if you can see yourself being happy doing something else, do that. Get your animal fix in another way - fostering, volunteering, etc.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I don’t know how vets do it. I never realized how little they make until recently. With all of the loans, I don’t know how they enjoy their lives, sounds stressful.

 

[Medic741]

How do you know this? If you haven't already, start getting some time with a vet to see what it's like. FWIW, I don't think anyone loves every single second of being a vet, even those of us who like our jobs.



Yep. And the boarding process for ACZM is crazy rigorous, requiring a TON of time and training. Again, though, without shadowing, how do you know what kind of vet you would or would not want to be?



Very true. Many of us say that if you could be happy doing anything else, do that. Vet med is really struggling with this issue right now with no appreciable solution in sight. And with the AVMA only just now coming around to the idea that there IS a problem. Money is an important factor, especially if you want to have children and travel, etc.



I wouldn't tell people NOT to be a veterinarian, but the struggles of debt:income are very real and you need a plan in place for that. Again, if you can see yourself being happy doing something else, do that. Get your animal fix in another way - fostering, volunteering, etc.

One of my EMT partners was a vet (US bet school, and no not a tech). They had to work a second job making $12.50 to make ends meet because the job market was so bad.

A lot of their job was also euthanizing dogs & puppies. All day long...

 

[RNtoMD87]

One of my EMT partners was a vet (US bet school, and no not a tech). They had to work a second job making $12.50 to make ends meet because the job market was so bad.

A lot of their job was also euthanizing dogs & puppies. All day long...

The euthanizing thing is what I couldn’t do. I had to shoot a bunch of hunting dogs once and it still bothers me five years later.

 

[stickgirl390]

As a current medical student with 2.5+ years of veterinary medicine experience, I would reiterate what has been said that you need to get some clinical exposure in both fields. They are similar in some aspects, but when they are different they are VERY different.

Also adding the veterinary medicine is a fairly saturated career field, despite what some might tell you. Our country doesn’t need any more veterinarians, and our need for physicians is just going to grow more and more.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Opening a vet clinic is very expensive. I dont think most vet grads with their student debt would be able to scrape up the money to buy or build a vet clinic. Most new vets on our area are employed by the clinic owners, and I'm told starting salaries around 65k. Avg vet salary nationwide is around 100k. Also lots of competition from Caribbean vet schools

 

[ciestar]

One of my EMT partners was a vet (US bet school, and no not a tech). They had to work a second job making $12.50 to make ends meet because the job market was so bad.

A lot of their job was also euthanizing dogs & puppies. All day long...

This is one big thing that turned me off from vet med. I couldn’t in good conscience ever euthanize healthy animals.

 

[RNtoMD87]

This is one big thing that turned me off from vet med. I couldn’t in good conscience ever euthanize healthy animals.

This and also knowing that you could do so much more to save them if cost wasn’t an issue. Much different than the “at any cost” mindset of human medicine.

 

[ciestar]

This and also knowing that you could do so much more to save them if cost wasn’t an issue. Much different than the “at any cost” mindset of human medicine.

Exactly.

I see those urgent, time-stamped happy faces in the Philly city shelter and then will the next day see RIP next to their picture, my gut drops and my heart breaks. All because people don’t spay/neuter or just abandoned their pets, just for the sake of space.

 

[that redhead]

One of my EMT partners was a vet (US bet school, and no not a tech). They had to work a second job making $12.50 to make ends meet because the job market was so bad.

A lot of their job was also euthanizing dogs & puppies. All day long...

Very rarely do I have to euthanize a kitten or a puppy and when I do, it's because it is extremely sick and there is little chance of it surviving despite our best care. As for "all day" - nope. I may euthanize a couple on a really bad day, but it isn't even a daily thing for me typically. There seem to be bad times, like around the holidays, when a lot are euthanized. If you work in shelter medicine or lab animal medicine, that's going to be a lot more frequent though, of course.

This is one big thing that turned me off from vet med. I couldn’t in good conscience ever euthanize healthy animals.

The vast majority of veterinarians will refuse a "convenience" euthanasia - an otherwise healthy animal that doesn't need to be euthanized. Shelter vets are of course a different subset of the veterinarian population where they are sometimes euthanizing healthy animals.

The euthanizing thing is what I couldn’t do. I had to shoot a bunch of hunting dogs once and it still bothers me five years later.

Euthanasia is derived from the Greek and means "good death" - which is what we strive for. Not every single euthanasia goes as planned, but it is almost always a quick, peaceful and painless passing, surrounded by people that love it. So many of my clients say, "I wish we could do this for humans". Of course there are still people that just don't want to or can't handle "killing" an animal, and I understand and respect that.

I think euthanasia is one of the best gifts we have in veterinary medicine, frankly. Not that I want to or enjoy euthanizing any animal but I know it's suffering is relieved or that it isn't at the point of suffering. I can't imagine having to draw out a human life just because it is human for the sake of life itself when that human is suffering. But that's perhaps another discussion and/or murky water for the pre-allo board.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Very rarely do I have to euthanize a kitten or a puppy and when I do, it's because it is extremely sick and there is little chance of it surviving despite our best care. As for "all day" - nope. I may euthanize a couple on a really bad day, but it isn't even a daily thing for me typically. There seem to be bad times, like around the holidays, when a lot are euthanized. If you work in shelter medicine or lab animal medicine, that's going to be a lot more frequent though, of course.



The vast majority of veterinarians will refuse a "convenience" euthanasia - an otherwise healthy animal that doesn't need to be euthanized. Shelter vets are of course a different subset of the veterinarian population where they are sometimes euthanizing healthy animals.



Euthanasia is derived from the Greek and means "good death" - which is what we strive for. Not every single euthanasia goes as planned, but it is almost always a quick, peaceful and painless passing, surrounded by people that love it. So many of my clients say, "I wish we could do this for humans". Of course there are still people that just don't want to or can't handle "killing" an animal, and I understand and respect that.

I think euthanasia is one of the best gifts we have in veterinary medicine, frankly. Not that I want to or enjoy euthanizing any animal but I know it's suffering is relieved or that it isn't at the point of suffering. I can't imagine having to draw out a human life just because it is human for the sake of life itself when that human is suffering. But that's perhaps another discussion and/or murky water for the pre-allo board.

I have no problem with euthanasia when needed, and honestly, I do think it should be allowed for humans. It was used in Iraq (though not as humane as I would’ve liked). My only concern is that the evil state will use it as a form of capital punishment.

As for animals, killing them doesn’t bother me (I have a rabbit cage out back). I am a hunter and grew up farming, so I have had to kill my share of animals. But especially when it comes to dogs, I have a hard time killing them unless absolutely necessary (like when 5 of them are slaughtering my herd of goats).

 

[ciestar]

Very rarely do I have to euthanize a kitten or a puppy and when I do, it's because it is extremely sick and there is little chance of it surviving despite our best care. As for "all day" - nope. I may euthanize a couple on a really bad day, but it isn't even a daily thing for me typically. There seem to be bad times, like around the holidays, when a lot are euthanized. If you work in shelter medicine or lab animal medicine, that's going to be a lot more frequent though, of course.



The vast majority of veterinarians will refuse a "convenience" euthanasia - an otherwise healthy animal that doesn't need to be euthanized. Shelter vets are of course a different subset of the veterinarian population where they are sometimes euthanizing healthy animals.



Euthanasia is derived from the Greek and means "good death" - which is what we strive for. Not every single euthanasia goes as planned, but it is almost always a quick, peaceful and painless passing, surrounded by people that love it. So many of my clients say, "I wish we could do this for humans". Of course there are still people that just don't want to or can't handle "killing" an animal, and I understand and respect that.

I think euthanasia is one of the best gifts we have in veterinary medicine, frankly. Not that I want to or enjoy euthanizing any animal but I know it's suffering is relieved or that it isn't at the point of suffering. I can't imagine having to draw out a human life just because it is human for the sake of life itself when that human is suffering. But that's perhaps another discussion and/or murky water for the pre-allo board.

A family member who is a vet has dealt with that convenience nonsense. Luckily, local rescues were glad to take the dog in and found him a good home.

But i was more speaking to shelter vets in my post. To stop an animal’s suffering at end of life is truly an amazing thing.

 

[stickgirl390]

The veterinarian I worked for refused to do “convenience” euthanasia. She mentioned that any “decent” vet wouldn’t euthanize a healthy animal.

 

[Tenk]

Do you like killing animals and watching them die? Do you like to inject them with medicine so they will take their final breath while their family sobs and cries their brains out? Do you like having people abandon pets or have them put down simply because they “don’t want to deal with them” or “that’s too much money?”

Vet medicine has its dark side just like every other specialty. You will not enjoy every aspect of it unless you are a psychopath. This post is too rose colored and not grounded in reality. Agree with above, go and shadow both.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

Go to Harvard Med..I hear they taking vet like classes within their meds school curriculum!

 

[that redhead]

Do you like killing animals and watching them die? Do you like to inject them with medicine so they will take their final breath while their family sobs and cries their brains out? Do you like having people abandon pets or have them put down simply because they “don’t want to deal with them” or “that’s too much money?”

Vet medicine has its dark side just like every other specialty. You will not enjoy every aspect of it unless you are a psychopath. This post is too rose colored and not grounded in reality. Agree with above, go and shadow both.

Vet med doesn’t require you to enjoy those things, just like being an oncologist doesn’t require you to enjoy telling people they have cancer. It does require some degree of compartmentalization, just like many health care fields.

There are definite challenges not present in human med, though, and understanding those challenges - and figuring out if you can tolerate them - does require spending time in the field. And even then, it’s never totally understood until you’re living it.

 

[Tenk]

Vet med doesn’t require you to enjoy those things, just like being an oncologist doesn’t require you to enjoy telling people they have cancer. It does require some degree of compartmentalization, just like many health care fields.

There are definite challenges not present in human med, though, and understanding those challenges - and figuring out if you can tolerate them - does require spending time in the field. And even then, it’s never totally understood until you’re living it.

Her post literally says she would “love every second of being a vet.” Is there another way to interpret that statement that I am unaware of? I sure as hell don’t enjoy every second of being an ED physician but that doesn’t mean I regret my career choice. Her post is too naive, not grounded in reality. She needs more exposure to real medicine, not fake, fantasy, dream medicine. Obviously my post was over the top but that’s the point: reality isn’t always fun. Quite often, reality blows.

 

[that redhead]

Her post literally says she would “love every second of being a vet.” Is there another way to interpret that statement that I am unaware of? I sure as hell don’t enjoy every second of being an ED physician but that doesn’t mean I regret my career choice. Her post is too naive, not grounded in reality. She needs more exposure to real medicine, not fake, fantasy, dream medicine. Obviously my post was over the top but that’s the point: reality isn’t always fun. Quite often, reality blows.

I agree 100%

 

[that redhead]

The veterinarian I worked for refused to do “convenience” euthanasia. She mentioned that any “decent” vet wouldn’t euthanize a healthy animal.

I don’t think it’s fair to say someone is a bad vet for performing a convenience euthanasia, but it is a very personal and often situational decision. You need to be able to sleep at night. It’s a very hot button topic/ethical issue in vet med.

 

[Robin-jay]

Being a veterinarian almost seems paradoxical.

On one hand, you help treat pets, care for them, give them needed medication, etc.

On the other hand, you're declawing cats (you declaw cats by removing their actual bones), euthanizing animals, sterilizing them, dealing with pets that may be abused but you can do little about it, etc.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Being a veterinarian almost seems paradoxical.

On one hand, you help treat pets, care for them, give them needed medication, etc.

On the other hand, you're declawing cats (you declaw cats by removing their actual bones), euthanizing animals, sterilizing them, dealing with pets that may be abused but you can do little about it, etc.

Declawing pets and castrating them seems extremely cruel.

How can anyone belive human castration is a terrible alternative to a vasectomy but magically “oh it’s actually good for animals!”

 

[birds sdrib]

Declawing pets and castrating them seems extremely cruel.

How can anyone belive human castration is a terrible alternative to a vasectomy but magically “oh it’s actually good for animals!”

Humans and animals, and even between animals alone, have different anatomy and physiology. I agree declawing is cruel, but castration is not.

To the OP, I'm struggling with a similar decision. Debt-to-income ratio and the people you deal with are just two things I'm concerned about. However, I have had some years of animal experience as a volunteer and certified vet assistant, both in shelters and veterinary hospitals. I plan to get human med experience to make a decision. I hope you do the same and I wish you well in your decision.

 

[RNtoMD87]

So if you castrate a human, they have extremely low testosterone level, but when you castrate an animal it somehow doesn't have the same effect?

 

[birds sdrib]

So if you castrate a human, they have extremely low testosterone level, but when you castrate an animal it somehow doesn't have the same effect?

I'm sure a veterinarian could explain much better than I, but the way I understand it is it eliminates or reduces their risk of testicular and prostate cancer or disease. It also reduces so many undesirable behaviors. And most importantly, it prevents breeding as we already have overpopulation where many end up in shelters or euthanized. There are hardly any risks to getting the surgery besides the one that always comes from anesthesia. The benefits outweigh that risk. Unlike declawing where the only purpose is to stop one specific behavior, but the surgery can cause negative adverse behaviors to appear.

 

[RNtoMD87]

My main concern with declawing is that the animal can no longer defend itself.

I'm sure castration would also prevent humans risk of prostate cancer, I've had physicians tell me "every male will get prostate cancer provided he lives long enough". And just because it reduces "undesirable" behaviors, does it truly make the animal happier? Or is it a docile depressed animal that is more "pleasant"?

I'm not a physician or a veterinarian but I just know that before I started taking testosterone (Level was around 320), I felt tired, had zero libido, was sleepy all the time, got sick easily, etc. Now my level stays around 1200-1400 and I feel incredible. I would rather die of cancer in my 70s-80s feeling this way than live to be 100 and feel like utter crap.

I could never subject my pet to being castrated. For people that want a docile animal, why don't they get a female and a less aggressive breed?

 

[birds sdrib]

My main concern with declawing is that the animal can no longer defend itself.

I'm sure castration would also prevent humans risk of prostate cancer, I've had physicians tell me "every male will get prostate cancer provided he lives long enough". And just because it reduces "undesirable" behaviors, does it truly make the animal happier? Or is it a docile depressed animal that is more "pleasant"?

I'm not a physician or a veterinarian but I just know that before I started taking testosterone (Level was around 320), I felt tired, had zero libido, was sleepy all the time, got sick easily, etc. Now my level stays around 1200-1400 and I feel incredible. I would rather die of cancer in my 70s-80s feeling this way than live to be 100 and feel like utter crap.

I could never subject my pet to being castrated. For people that want a docile animal, why don't they get a female and a less aggressive breed?

I don't think neutered animals become depressed. I have never ever heard of that happening in animals. Actually, they tell people that neutering will not make a hyper dog less hyper. However, it stops aggression, urine marking, and undesirable sexual behavior. Please do not compare those type of behaviors to those in humans. As I said initially, animals are not the same as humans in many aspects, medically speaking. I would never say it's appropriate to neuter male humans to prevent cancer because of exactly the results you described.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I don't know, I guess that's fine for people who want a docile pet, but I have hog dogs and desire the aggression, and when I get another GSD, I want him to retain his aggression. Never understood having useless pets.

 

[birds sdrib]

I don't know, I guess that's fine for people who want a docile pet, but I have hog dogs and desire the aggression, and when I get another GSD, I want him to retain his aggression. Never understood having useless pets.

My dog is not useless lol. He still has the same personality he had before he was neutered. He still barks and will bite if he detects a threat. Only difference is he is no longer humping my leg all day long. And the added benefits that he won't develop that type of cancer they are guaranteed to get in old age, as well as no accidental breeding.

Also, a trained dog is supposed to be submissive. He is apart of your pack.

 

[RNtoMD87]

My dog is not useless lol. He still has the same personality he had before he was neutered. He still barks and will bite if he detects a threat. Only difference is he is no longer humping my leg all day long. And the added benefits that he won't develop that type of cancer they are guaranteed to get in old age, as well as no accidental breeding.

Also, a trained dog is supposed to be submissive. He is apart of your pack.

My dogs are submissive and don’t hump my leg all day. They hump each other which is normal pack behavior. It’s like prison lol.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don't know, I guess that's fine for people who want a docile pet, but I have hog dogs and desire the aggression, and when I get another GSD, I want him to retain his aggression. Never understood having useless pets.

Good Lord, dude.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Good Lord, dude.

I’ve just always had working dogs. I like seeing what they’re capable of, just like I like knowing what I’m capable of. I’ve never had pets for amusement. Might as well get a fish, or a pet rat or something.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I’ve just always had working dogs. I like seeing what they’re capable of, just like I like knowing what I’m capable of. I’ve never had pets for amusement. Might as well get a fish, or a pet rat or something.

That wasn’t what I was getting at.

 

[that redhead]

So if you castrate a human, they have extremely low testosterone level, but when you castrate an animal it somehow doesn't have the same effect?

They can’t tell us how they feel, but castrating dogs does not make them behave in a sleepy or docile manner in the experience of thousands of veterinarians who have neutered millions of dogs. Breed, age, temperament and individual personality all play into how an animal behaves. My dog is a working breed, young and very active. He’s neutered. We still hike for miles every week, we play, etc. I don’t want an aggressive dog as a companion or partner and I don’t want to work with aggressive dogs, either. But if that’s what you value in your pet, that’s your decision.

I know a lot of people with hunting and tracking dogs do find the altered animals don’t work as well as the intact ones. Okay, keep them intact To me personally, I think the health risks of keeping intact males is definitely less than those associated with intact females.

As an aide, altering animals is much less of a “thing” around the rest of the world and they often don’t have the population control issues we have here, but those same health issues are there.

 

[HarmonicConvergence]

I’ve just always had working dogs. I like seeing what they’re capable of, just like I like knowing what I’m capable of. I’ve never had pets for amusement. Might as well get a fish, or a pet rat or something.

My Dog has no job, no real purpose, doesn't make me any money, cost me tons of money to keep alive. He's still my best friend and I wouldn't trade him for anything.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume most people who have dogs in this country have them as companions, friends, part of the family. So for most of us there is no benefit of having an un-neutered pet but plenty of cons for keeping them uncut. Plus all other pets are basically a snoozefest of boredom

 

[Robin-jay]

My Dog has no job, no real purpose, doesn't make me any money, cost me tons of money to keep alive.

Sounds like my ex-gf.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Long as you don't let your dog kiss you on the mouth. Sh makes me want to puke. Nasty ass people. Its like they don't realize dogs lick their asses.

My Dog has no job, no real purpose, doesn't make me any money, cost me tons of money to keep alive. He's still my best friend and I wouldn't trade him for anything.

I'm gonna go ahead and assume most people who have dogs in this country have them as companions, friends, part of the family. So for most of us there is no benefit of having an un-neutered pet but plenty of cons for keeping them uncut. Plus all other pets are basically a snoozefest of boredom

Yeah I definitely don't understand cats, rats, etc. I have a couple donkeys. Nice animals, keep the predators out, you can ride em, and they're easier to care for and more hardy than horses.

 

[JustPaws]

However, specifically I think I would ultimately want to be a zoo vet, which is notoriously difficult (basically, I'd have to kill off someone for their position).
The thing is, after doing much research on vet school, I found that vets have an awful income-to-debt ratio

You might want to look into how little zoo vets make ( <90k), and how many residency/internship years they do at <40k.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Long as you don't let your dog kiss you on the mouth. Sh makes me want to puke. Nasty ass people. Its like they don't realize dogs lick their asses.

Yeah a full mouth kiss is gross. Nothing wrong with them licking your hand or even your cheek if you wash your hands/face. I’ve had dogs my whole life and never got sick from having them lick my face. I’d never let them lick my mouth though.

Yeah I definitely don't understand cats, rats, etc. I have a couple donkeys. Nice animals, keep the predators out, you can ride em, and they're easier to care for and more hardy than horses.

Donkeys are jackasses. They’re cooler than camels though. Those things are total dbags.