MD medical education is not fit for 21st century

[kbb1]

MS4 here reflecting on coming to medical school. The following are just my personal views, so don't attack me if you disagree!
I think that we live in a really exciting time in history where globalization is rapid and there are so many high impact and rewarding careers. But I don't think I've really realized that until fairly recently. I have always had this shadow over me, telling me that medicine is the only way that I can have a rewarding and respected career. Medicine was never a calling for me. Because of how miserable I have been the past 2-3 years in med school, I've taken a lot of time to reflect on why I'm still pursuing this career. At the end of the day, i think the pull for me has always been a socially constructed idea of what it means to have a "good job." Then I realized that these ideas were shaped by assumptions formed so long ago that they're essentially meaningless today.
Anyway, I have friends who studied comp sci, now working at google/microsoft/startups that are doing amazing work that seem not only rewarding on a professional level but actually making a difference in the world. There are also people who have gone into mgmt consulting doing a lot of diverse work/traveling and making career advancements that I feel like would be nearly impossible to achieve from a medical education.
In a way, I guess I feel like medical school/medical degree is good for nothing except for practicing medicine. It's like a certificate of completion, but then you're trapped into committing in additional 4 years to residency and not a lot of room for creativity/career advancement or real impact in the long run.
What do you guys think?

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[forumname1]

Did you not go to medical school knowing that getting a medical degree was only good for practicing medicine? Also it sounds like you went into medicine for someone other than yourself which usually won't end well.

 

[CidHighwind]

There’s actually a lot you can do with an MD. Remember you can always work at a consulting firm or a medical tech company if you really wanted to, your friends wouldn’t be able to practice medicine without going through medical school.

 

[Tenk]

George Miller, the creator of Mad Max who is also a physician, thinks you just lack vision.

 

[Goro]

In a way, I guess I feel like medical school/medical degree is good for nothing except for practicing medicine. It's like a certificate of completion, but then you're trapped into committing in additional 4 years to residency and not a lot of room for creativity/career advancement or real impact in the long run.

You're just figuring out this now?

I have several other revelations for you:
The Pope is Catholic
Water is wet
Bears defecate in the woods.

In reality, you can teach, consult, go into politics, get into health insurance or do research.

 

[CidHighwind]

You're just figuring out this now?

I have several other revelations for you:
The Pope is Catholic
Water is wet
Bears defecate in the woods.

In reality, you can teach, consult, go into politics, get into health insurance or do research.

But does the Pope defecate in the woods?

 

[Tenk]

But does the Pope defecate in the woods?

And if he does, is it considered holy crap?

 

[907914]

But does the Pope defecate in the woods?

The Vatican is 0.17 square miles. This means that statistically, the Vatican hasn’t the highest population density of Popes at 5.88 Popes per square mile.

 

[Lucca]

I think the point you made about what constitutes a "good job" being a likely vestigial social construction is pretty compelling. I think it's still a pretty great job by many standards but what people (especially teenagers and college students trying to figure out what to do with their lives) tend to think of as actual possibilities for themselves tends to be much narrower than what actually exists in the 21st century. Indeed, I think the "Tech, Consulting, or Grad/Professional School" paradigm we currently inhabit in higher ed is just as false as the older (doctor, lawyer, engineer) one you describe.

 

[kbb1]

What I'm trying to get at is that there are so many opportunities in the world today if you have an MBA, or even a bachelors degree in comp sci/math but with an MD, there are so few transferable skills. But it's possible to make medical education less narrow in scope to incorporate more of the economics of healthcare/actual operations/strategy of sustaining a healthcare system. I think it's completely useless spending so much time memorizing esoteric facts/protocols/guidelines when in reality none of that will even make a difference when you're actually practicing medicine.
I clearly understand that an MD is theoretically not good for anything other than practicing medicine, but many people suggest that getting an MD would open many doors, and that it would be a good stepping stone to other careers. I wish that this notion was true. Consulting at MBB is extremely competitive. I spoke to a recruiter, and they are definitely not short on MDs applying from Ivys.

 

[kbb1]

I think the point you made about what constitutes a "good job" being a likely vestigial social construction is pretty compelling. I think it's still a pretty great job by many standards but what people (especially teenagers and college students trying to figure out what to do with their lives) tend to think of as actual possibilities for themselves tends to be much narrower than what actually exists in the 21st century. Indeed, I think the "Tech, Consulting, or Grad/Professional School" paradigm we currently inhabit in higher ed is just as false as the older (doctor, lawyer, engineer) one you describe.

I disagree. If you think about it from a more pragmatic standpoint, going into tech/consulting can yield returns in time, money, tangible impact, experiential learning+++ that are probably more important in being successful in life than spending 8+ years of your 20s stuck in an isolated environment. I guess if you're only goal in life is to care for sick people, then getting an MD would be the only way to go... otherwise, I don't think becoming a doctor is that great in terms of bringing value to the world/yourself.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What I'm trying to get at is that there are so many opportunities in the world today if you have an MBA, or even a bachelors degree in comp sci/math but with an MD, there are so few transferable skills. But it's possible to make medical education less narrow in scope to incorporate more of the economics of healthcare/actual operations/strategy of sustaining a healthcare system. I think it's completely useless spending so much time memorizing esoteric facts/protocols/guidelines when in reality none of that will even make a difference when you're actually practicing medicine.
I clearly understand that an MD is theoretically not good for anything other than practicing medicine, but many people suggest that getting an MD would open many doors, and that it would be a good stepping stone to other careers. I wish that this notion was true. Consulting at MBB is extremely competitive. I spoke to a recruiter, and they are definitely not short on MDs applying from Ivys.

Hang on a sec. Are you actually suggesting in an area of ever increasing medical knowledge that we devote time in medical school to things that aren't relevant to being a doctor?

 

[deleted480308]

What I'm trying to get at is that there are so many opportunities in the world today if you have an MBA, or even a bachelors degree in comp sci/math but with an MD, there are so few transferable skills. But it's possible to make medical education less narrow in scope to incorporate more of the economics of healthcare/actual operations/strategy of sustaining a healthcare system. I think it's completely useless spending so much time memorizing esoteric facts/protocols/guidelines when in reality none of that will even make a difference when you're actually practicing medicine.
I clearly understand that an MD is theoretically not good for anything other than practicing medicine, but many people suggest that getting an MD would open many doors, and that it would be a good stepping stone to other careers. I wish that this notion was true. Consulting at MBB is extremely competitive. I spoke to a recruiter, and they are definitely not short on MDs applying from Ivys.

Med school is absurd already in the amount of information required, it’s an almost objectively stupid idea to expand that beyond medicine

 

[kbb1]

No, I don't it is wise to expand the curricula. It's important to teach med students HOW TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS --> find answers rather than teaching students facts to memorize. If medical education can somehow eliminate all the non-essential facts and incorporate more critical thinking, I think it is possible to add some interesting/probably more important things like healthcare economics.

 

[NITRAS]

If you think physicians have no good impact on the world, I can’t help you.

You are underestimating how hard other people work and the rates of failure of people in other professions.

 

[NITRAS]

No, I don't it is wise to expand the curricula. It's important to teach med students HOW TO ASK THE RIGHT QUESTIONS --> find answers rather than teaching students facts to memorize. If medical education can somehow eliminate all the non-essential facts and incorporate more critical thinking, I think it is possible to add some interesting/probably more important things like healthcare economics.

You have to get a baseline knowledge before knowing what to ask.

There’s lots of critical thinking in medicine. That’s why a ms4 can spen 90 minutes with a patient and come up with basically nonsensical plan, a PGY2 can spend 40 minutes and come up with a decent assessment and plan and I can pend half that, have half the note and have a concise plan.

 

[kbb1]

Right...how is it then possible that PA's are writing up a/ps and the attendings just signing off on them?

 

[studentdocftw]

Medicine has always been narrow focused and always will be, given the demand and amount of information we need to know. In fact, physicians are known for incompetence outside of medicine, which is why brokers, business and lawyers salivate when they find out you are a physician. Unfortunately, the ins and outs of investing, business and law must be learned during "leisure" time.

 

[Lucca]

I disagree. If you think about it from a more pragmatic standpoint, going into tech/consulting can yield returns in time, money, tangible impact, experiential learning+++ that are probably more important in being successful in life than spending 8+ years of your 20s stuck in an isolated environment. I guess if you're only goal in life is to care for sick people, then getting an MD would be the only way to go... otherwise, I don't think becoming a doctor is that great in terms of bringing value to the world/yourself.

My point was that you can get all of those things from many careers but ppl pidgeonhold themselves into rly small boxes because the culture of higher ed makes it seem like you have to.

Plenty of MDs working in industry, tech, law btw. Most don’t because in most cases clinical medicine is still a better job.

 

[AMEHigh]

What I'm trying to get at is that there are so many opportunities in the world today if you have an MBA, or even a bachelors degree in comp sci/math but with an MD, there are so few transferable skills. But it's possible to make medical education less narrow in scope to incorporate more of the economics of healthcare/actual operations/strategy of sustaining a healthcare system. I think it's completely useless spending so much time memorizing esoteric facts/protocols/guidelines when in reality none of that will even make a difference when you're actually practicing medicine.
I clearly understand that an MD is theoretically not good for anything other than practicing medicine, but many people suggest that getting an MD would open many doors, and that it would be a good stepping stone to other careers. I wish that this notion was true. Consulting at MBB is extremely competitive. I spoke to a recruiter, and they are definitely not short on MDs applying from Ivys.

I completely disagree. I don’t plan to practice clinical medicine forever.
I know doctors in many different sectors...non-profits, public health, international affairs, pharmaceuticals, IT, research, teaching, writing, government work, etc.

It’s uo to each individual in regards to how they want to use the degree and apply it to other areas.

 

[kbb1]

I completely disagree. I don’t plan to practice clinical medicine forever.
I know doctors in many different sectors...non-profits, public health, international affairs, pharmaceuticals, IT, research, teaching, writing, government work, etc.

It’s uo to each individual in regards to how they want to use the degree and apply it to other areas.

I think the options do exist, but the difficulty to which you have to really sell yourself is beyond incongruent with what the degree prepares you for. I am in the process of looking for jobs for an MD without residency, and options are pretty limited tbh.

 

[kbb1]

My point was that you can get all of those things from many careers but ppl pidgeonhold themselves into rly small boxes because the culture of higher ed makes it seem like you have to.

Plenty of MDs working in industry, tech, law btw. Most don’t because in most cases clinical medicine is still a better job.

Is it really though?
How is being a physician "still a better job" when you essentially have to work minimum wage for 4 years of residency with no quality of life on top of already 4 years of medical school?
I work with attendings in the 40s and 50s still taking calls/weekends. Seems pretty terrible.

 

[Sephirakra]

MS4 here reflecting on coming to medical school. The following are just my personal views, so don't attack me if you disagree!
I think that we live in a really exciting time in history where globalization is rapid and there are so many high impact and rewarding careers. But I don't think I've really realized that until fairly recently. I have always had this shadow over me, telling me that medicine is the only way that I can have a rewarding and respected career. Medicine was never a calling for me. Because of how miserable I have been the past 2-3 years in med school, I've taken a lot of time to reflect on why I'm still pursuing this career. At the end of the day, i think the pull for me has always been a socially constructed idea of what it means to have a "good job." Then I realized that these ideas were shaped by assumptions formed so long ago that they're essentially meaningless today.
Anyway, I have friends who studied comp sci, now working at google/microsoft/startups that are doing amazing work that seem not only rewarding on a professional level but actually making a difference in the world. There are also people who have gone into mgmt consulting doing a lot of diverse work/traveling and making career advancements that I feel like would be nearly impossible to achieve from a medical education.
In a way, I guess I feel like medical school/medical degree is good for nothing except for practicing medicine. It's like a certificate of completion, but then you're trapped into committing in additional 4 years to residency and not a lot of room for creativity/career advancement or real impact in the long run.
What do you guys think?

So you're saying other fields look more promising than where you currently find yourself... I feel like there's an idiom for this. Maybe it references different hues of a common green flora...

 

[Chibucks15]

Is it really though?
How is being a physician "still a better job" when you essentially have to work minimum wage for 4 years of residency with no quality of life on top of already 4 years of medical school?
I work with attendings in the 40s and 50s still taking calls/weekends. Seems pretty terrible.

It’s the most secure job in the world. The first people to get canned when the economy goes are people in business.

The salary is better than 95% of the rest of the world. People vastly underestimate how hard it is to be truly successful in other fields. Google doesn’t hire everybody and my friends in investment banking worked 100+ hours a week right out of college for a few years

It has respect attached to it. (Or at least used to have more)

I bet those people who take call at that age choose to, because any doc I’ve talked to said that you can find any job setup you want if you’re willing to move and/or take a pay cut to work less.

 

[kbb1]

It’s the most secure job in the world. The first people to get canned when the economy goes are people in business.

The salary is better than 95% of the rest of the world. People vastly underestimate how hard it is to be truly successful in other fields. Google doesn’t hire everybody and my friends in investment banking worked 100+ hours a week right out of college for a few years

It has respect attached to it. (Or at least used to have more)

I bet those people who take call at that age choose to, because any doc I’ve talked to said that you can find any job setup you want if you’re willing to move and/or take a pay cut to work less.

Yes, it has great job security in a single job. I think what most people in medicine neglect to consider is that people in "business" might not have the same kind of job security, but they have transferable skills that will always be marketable. Its even possible to become a millionaire in i-b for ex by 30, and if you invest well/continue to work, i don't think you need job security to have a fulfilling career.

 

[Chibucks15]

Yes, it has great job security in a single job. I think what most people in medicine neglect to consider is that people in "business" might not have the same kind of job security, but they have transferable skills that will always be marketable. Its even possible to become a millionaire in i-b for ex by 30, and if you invest well/continue to work, i don't think you need job security to have a fulfilling career.

I don’t think you do either. It’s a hell of a lot harder to become a millionaire I banker by 30 than you’re giving it credit for. If you don’t work for the major firms then you’re never gonna sniff that level of success. Sure skills are marketable but you could just as easily fluff up medical skills as being marketable because he entire job is managing stress, multitasking, and dealing with people. If it wasn’t a great job, you wouldn’t have people taking out a mortgage in student loans to get there.

This is classic grass is greener situation. My friend who is successful in business in a large city did the math and even after starting later/student loans/the salary figure of 225k (which is easily beatable in almost every specialty), I will still out earn him by 8-10%. I think he earns something like 90k now, which will go up as he moves up the food chain.

Not to mention the average business person changes jobs like 6 times or something like that. There ain’t a better gig out there.

Sure it would be helpful for docs to know how economics work, but honestly that could be built into undergrad curriculum. For example instead of my 4th and 5th bio elective I had to take for my major I could’ve had to have taken macro/micro economics.

 

[kbb1]

I don’t think you do either. It’s a hell of a lot harder to become a millionaire I banker by 30 than you’re giving it credit for. If you don’t work for the major firms then you’re never gonna sniff that level of success. Sure skills are marketable but you could just as easily fluff up medical skills as being marketable because he entire job is managing stress, multitasking, and dealing with people. If it wasn’t a great job, you wouldn’t have people taking out a mortgage in student loans to get there.

This is classic grass is greener situation. My friend who is successful in business in a large city did the math and even after starting later/student loans/the salary figure of 225k (which is easily beatable in almost every specialty), I will still out earn him by 8-10%. I think he earns something like 90k now, which will go up as he moves up the food chain.

Not to mention the average business person changes jobs like 6 times or something like that. There ain’t a better gig out there.

Sure it would be helpful for docs to know how economics work, but honestly that could be built into undergrad curriculum. For example instead of my 4th and 5th bio elective I had to take for my major I could’ve had to have taken macro/micro economics.

I think talking about money in business vs. medicine is pointless because there is absolutely no argument that you would have more yield in money in business assuming you are bright. I’m not sure what your friends situation is, but if you do some simple googling on average ib salaries, you will see that it is not hard to become a millionaire. Even in management consulting, becoming a millionaire is within reach if you get into MBB out of college (100k --> 200k --> 300k-500k --> 500k-5mil) is the progression with 2-3 years between each promotion. You can do the math.

 

[TheIllusionist]

my IB, PE and HF friends at my age (25) make about 200-300k rn. I went to high school with some of them and was even the fbla president that taught them some of their basics with competitions like euro and fed challenge (not saying it means much but just makes me chuckle today seeing as how well they are doing).

My friends who are elite programmers make a but less than that. My T14 law school friends are just graduating in 200k a year jobs.

I have accepted I chose wrong, if I were only thinking or even mostly thinking about money. And that is totally fine. Best to move on, finish up, be creative, and invest well. Medicine is no longer the field that attracts the best for the wrong reasons. And that is because those wrong reasons aka money, power, respect, and prestige exist less and less. This is just our new reality.

This is coming from someone who grew up in a fairly wealthy town on the coast dominated largely by Jewish and Asian tiger parents. Lot of heavy investment in kids educations and a lot of historical and current educational professional pedigree

 

[Chibucks15]

I think talking about money in business vs. medicine is pointless because there is absolutely no argument that you would have more yield in money in business assuming you are bright. I’m not sure what your friends situation is, but if you do some simple googling on average ib salaries, you will see that it is not hard to become a millionaire. Even in management consulting, becoming a millionaire is within reach if you get into MBB out of college (100k --> 200k --> 300k-500k --> 500k-5mil) is the progression with 2-3 years between each promotion. You can do the math.

I get that. But man the amount of times my buddies have said it’s the most unfulfilling, monotonous job there is makes me glad I didn’t completely sell my soul. The government owns most of it by now, but there’s a piece of it left haha

 

[managedcarefin]

Yes, it has great job security in a single job. I think what most people in medicine neglect to consider is that people in "business" might not have the same kind of job security, but they have transferable skills that will always be marketable. Its even possible to become a millionaire in i-b for ex by 30, and if you invest well/continue to work, i don't think you need job security to have a fulfilling career.

You have no idea what you're talking about tbh. I'm one of those business people you are talking about and it just doesn't work the way you think it does. That "minium wage" you work for in residency is the same as an IB who pulls 80hrs a week on average for 2 years, the same as a consultant who is pulling 60 hr weeks while traveling 46 weeks a year, the same as a big law lawyer who is averaging 80+ hrs a week and the same as FAANG engineers who are grinding the next improvement to xyz.com.

Medicine like all demanding careers requires a ton of sacrifice but that same sacrifice happens in all other high end industries. The amount of people who become real millionaires before the age of 30 isn't as a high as you think because you're forgetting about burnout and failure. Not everyone will become Jamie Diamond or Skadden or Zuckerberg most people who work these high end jobs will be average in their fields. So consider that when you think about comparing and MD to an MBA they aren't similar because they aren't suppose to be. You should really compare an MD and a masters degree in some niche engineering.

 

[kbb1]

my IB, PE and HF friends at my age (25) make about 200-300k rn. I went to high school with some of them and was even the fbla president that taught them some of their basics with competitions like euro and fed challenge (not saying it means much but just makes me chuckle today seeing as how well they are doing).

My friends who are elite programmers make a but less than that. My T14 law school friends are just graduating in 200k a year jobs.

I have accepted I chose wrong, if I were only thinking or even mostly thinking about money. And that is totally fine. Best to move on, finish up, be creative, and invest well. Medicine is no longer the field that attracts the best for the wrong reasons. And that is because those wrong reasons aka money, power, respect, and prestige exist less and less. This is just our new reality.

This is coming from someone who grew up in a fairly wealthy town on the coast dominated largely by Jewish and Asian tiger parents. Lot of heavy investment in kids educations and a lot of historical and current educational professional pedigree

Wow, I had a similar upbringing. I have no loans for school and good investments that I hope to get from my parents. I would say that money was never the #1 factor for choosing a career, but I honestly wanted to do something rewarding with impact. It is just frustrating when people in medicine can’t seem to have this conversation about how other career options are just as good/viable.

 

[kbb1]

You have no idea what you're talking about tbh. I'm one of those business people you are talking about and it just doesn't work the way you think it does. That "minium wage" you work for in residency is the same as an IB who pulls 80hrs a week on average for 2 years, the same as a consultant who is pulling 60 hr weeks while traveling 46 weeks a year, the same as a big law lawyer who is averaging 80+ hrs a week and the same as FAANG engineers who are grinding the next improvement to xyz.com.

Medicine like all demanding careers requires a ton of sacrifice but that same sacrifice happens in all other high end industries. The amount of people who become real millionaires before the age of 30 isn't as a high as you think because you're forgetting about burnout and failure. Not everyone will become Jamie Diamond or Skadden or Zuckerberg most people who work these high end jobs will be average in their fields. So consider that when you think about comparing and MD to an MBA they aren't similar because they aren't suppose to be. You should really compare an MD and a masters degree in some niche engineering.

I won't argue with you since you seem pretty closed-minded about what I know/don't know. Regardless, I don't mean to say medicine is MORE challenging than other careers, because it's not. You obviously need good work ethic to be successful.

 

[managedcarefin]

I won't argue with you since you seem pretty closed-minded about what I know/don't know. Regardless, I don't mean to say medicine is MORE challenging than other careers, because it's not. You obviously need good work ethic to be successful.

What I'm trying to get at is that there are so many opportunities in the world today if you have an MBA, or even a bachelors degree in comp sci/math but with an MD, there are so few transferable skills. But it's possible to make medical education less narrow in scope to incorporate more of the economics of healthcare/actual operations/strategy of sustaining a healthcare system. I think it's completely useless spending so much time memorizing esoteric facts/protocols/guidelines when in reality none of that will even make a difference when you're actually practicing medicine.
I clearly understand that an MD is theoretically not good for anything other than practicing medicine, but many people suggest that getting an MD would open many doors, and that it would be a good stepping stone to other careers. I wish that this notion was true. Consulting at MBB is extremely competitive. I spoke to a recruiter, and they are definitely not short on MDs applying from Ivys.

Not sure what there is to argue you about. You made a claim about an MBA that is incorrect. The first sentence is truly only true of a top 25 MBA or a company is sponsoring you to get it and you plan to stay there. But any US MD school once you graduate you are a physician.

Also you are choosing consulting at MBB like that is a fair comparison to practicing medicine generally, which it isn't. An MBB consulting job is like getting a residency in IM at MGH or a Neuro surgery residency as UCSF it's truly reserved for the best of the best of the best.

 

[Chibucks15]

I won't argue with you since you seem pretty closed-minded about what I know/don't know. Regardless, I don't mean to say medicine is MORE challenging than other careers, because it's not. You obviously need good work ethic to be successful.

While I acknowledge your opinion, your upbringing is not the norm for the majority of America. Not having loans and having investments to fall back on is a luxury most of us do not have. This tells me that your view of what is easily attainable is skewed pretty heavily, which isn’t your fault, it’s how you grew up and what you saw around you.

Many, if not all of the examples you have provided are not the norm, and are reserved for a very select few. Medical school and the job that comes with it is immensely more attainable in terms of pure numbers of spots than these examples. Even if you’re bottom tier medical student, you are almost guaranteed at least 200k if you match. A very low competitive applicant to those high powered jobs will never see anything close to the return medicine affords you

 

[enalli]

Medicine in 2019 is not what a lot of people believe it to be, but you are seriously overestimating how impactful/meaningful/fulfilling software engineering and business consulting are.

 

[kbb1]

Not sure what there is to argue you about. You made a claim about an MBA that is incorrect. The first sentence is truly only true of a top 25 MBA or a company is sponsoring you to get it and you plan to stay there. But any US MD school once you graduate you are a physician.

Also you are choosing consulting at MBB like that is a fair comparison to practicing medicine generally, which it isn't. An MBB consulting job is like getting a residency in IM at MGH or a Neuro surgery residency as UCSF it's truly reserved for the best of the best of the best.

You are absolutely right. Now let’s expand our firms to EY, deloitte, pwc, oliver wyman etc. it is still feasible to become a millionaire in any of those firms by 30 – assuming you are good at what you do. The argument isn’t about how hard/easy medicine is in comparison to other careers. The purpose of the discussion is about where medical training/a career in medicine stands in the larger paradigm of what the world is shifting towards… whether that is related tech, finance, consulting. In my opinion, it is not the career for the most reward and impact.

 

[kbb1]

Medicine in 2019 is not what a lot of people believe it to be, but you are seriously overestimating how impactful/meaningful/fulfilling software engineering and business consulting are.

Sure, but there is a lot of potential in startups to change how we do basic things. How is AI, machine learning, blockchain etc. all going to affect how medicine is practiced?
How important is health admins vs. doctors in delivery of care today?
Doctor's have no power in where the trajectory of medicine is going because they just keep their heads down.

 

[Chibucks15]

You are absolutely right. Now let’s expand our firms to EY, deloitte, pwc, oliver wyman etc. it is still feasible to become a millionaire in any of those firms by 30 – assuming you are good at what you do. The argument isn’t about how hard/easy medicine is in comparison to other careers. The purpose of the discussion is about where medical training/a career in medicine stands in the larger paradigm of what the world is shifting towards… whether that is related tech, finance, consulting. In my opinion, it is not the career for the most reward and impact.

Are you honestly saying that business consulting is more impactful than saving lives? I know medicine isn’t all it’s cracked up to be but come on now that’s absurd

 

[kbb1]

While I acknowledge your opinion, your upbringing is not the norm for the majority of America. Not having loans and having investments to fall back on is a luxury most of us do not have. This tells me that your view of what is easily attainable is skewed pretty heavily, which isn’t your fault, it’s how you grew up and what you saw around you.

Many, if not all of the examples you have provided are not the norm, and are reserved for a very select few. Medical school and the job that comes with it is immensely more attainable in terms of pure numbers of spots than these examples. Even if you’re bottom tier medical student, you are almost guaranteed at least 200k if you match. A very low competitive applicant to those high powered jobs will never see anything close to the return medicine affords you

I’m sorry if I’ve offended anyone. My point isn’t to say that medicine is terrible and that no one should do it. I think it’s interesting to have a discourse about how medical education/career in medicine could be different.

 

[kbb1]

Are you honestly saying that business consulting is more impactful than saving lives? I know medicine isn’t all it’s cracked up to be but come on now that’s absurd

I don’t know what your experience has been in med school but I have never actually seen anyone’s life ‘being saved.’ A lot of work is maintenance of really uninspiring things...

 

[managedcarefin]

You are absolutely right. Now let’s expand our firms to EY, deloitte, pwc, oliver wyman etc. it is still feasible to become a millionaire in any of those firms by 30 – assuming you are good at what you do. The argument isn’t about how hard/easy medicine is in comparison to other careers. The purpose of the discussion is about where medical training/a career in medicine stands in the larger paradigm of what the world is shifting towards… whether that is related tech, finance, consulting. In my opinion, it is not the career for the most reward and impact.

Less than 10% chance at any of the firms you named. (Data point based on promotion timelines of people i know). One could argue that medicine is over rewarded not under rewarded. Medicine compared to tech fin , consulting and law is rewarded fairly equally if you are the best and you choose to grind. It seems you're making compensation arguments which aren't fair comparisons to Medicine because every other company is able to pay much more due to demand/ people available to do the job. There is one Google, there are thousands of hospitals.

 

[TheIllusionist]

Not sure what there is to argue you about. You made a claim about an MBA that is incorrect. The first sentence is truly only true of a top 25 MBA or a company is sponsoring you to get it and you plan to stay there. But any US MD school once you graduate you are a physician.

Also you are choosing consulting at MBB like that is a fair comparison to practicing medicine generally, which it isn't. An MBB consulting job is like getting a residency in IM at MGH or a Neuro surgery residency as UCSF it's truly reserved for the best of the best of the best.

LMFAO no. It is not even close to that competitive. Some of my friends are PREMED dropouts killing it in those fields. You don't have to be that great to get a bulge bracket IB gig from a decent undergrad, whereas I know kids at decent undergrads fighting just to get into their state MD school. Yeah for some memorization biology monkeys med school is easier. for most people that like to think quantitatively as well, many of these other paths are just as viable.

BTW MGH IM would be like being PE at The Carlyle group with a Stanford MBA. False equivalencies where people degrade themselves is amusing. We not only are losing but have also lost self esteem disproportionately.

 

[Chibucks15]

I don’t know what your experience has been in med school but I have never actually seen anyone’s life ‘being saved.’ A lot of work is maintenance of really uninspiring things...

I mean that’s quite literally the definition of medicine is keeping people alive. And on that note, what did you expect from a job? It’s not like every day is this incredible Inspiring day. That’s true for any job you’ll ever have. You seem to be grossly misinformed about the world outside being a student.

Personally I could not see anything business related being fulfilling at all. But to each their own I guess. I’m sorry you picked the wrong field but best of luck.

 

[managedcarefin]

LMFAO no. It is not even close to that competitive. Some of my friends are PREMED dropouts killing it in those fields. You don't have to be that great to get a bulge bracket IB gig from a decent undergrad, whereas I know kids at decent undergrads fighting just to get into their state MD school. Yeah for some memorization biology monkeys med school is easier. for most people that like to think quantitatively as well, many of these other paths are just as viable.

BTW MGH IM would be like being PE at The Carlyle group with a Stanford MBA. False equivalencies where people degrade themselves is amusing. We not only are losing but have also lost self esteem disproportionately.

Lol.. your friends "killing it" an anomaly not the average... your n=5 argument isn't a good one. On average you have to go to a top school to do real well in high finance, to argue otherwise is being obtuse.

 

[CidHighwind]

my IB, PE and HF friends at my age (25) make about 200-300k rn. I went to high school with some of them and was even the fbla president that taught them some of their basics with competitions like euro and fed challenge (not saying it means much but just makes me chuckle today seeing as how well they are doing).

My friends who are elite programmers make a but less than that. My T14 law school friends are just graduating in 200k a year jobs.

I have accepted I chose wrong, if I were only thinking or even mostly thinking about money. And that is totally fine. Best to move on, finish up, be creative, and invest well. Medicine is no longer the field that attracts the best for the wrong reasons. And that is because those wrong reasons aka money, power, respect, and prestige exist less and less. This is just our new reality.

This is coming from someone who grew up in a fairly wealthy town on the coast dominated largely by Jewish and Asian tiger parents. Lot of heavy investment in kids educations and a lot of historical and current educational professional pedigree

You’re using the tip top of the food chain to make a disingenuous point. The vast majority of lawyers, bankers, and business people don’t break six figures. The reality is that even the worst medical student that ends up matching and completing residency will have a job paying 200k+. If you wanted to use the extreme example in medicine, you can have someone that becomes a Mohs dermatologist or a Plastic surgeon and make 1 mill+ a year. Also I feel like most people don’t realize how difficult it is to get an elite Ibanking or tech job. To give you some prospective, the “hyper-competitive” specialties in medicine have match rates from 50-75%. For some of those other jobs, the acceptance rate is much, MUCH lower. For instance, Google has 500 applicants for 1 spot. If you don’t already have rich parents or well-connected friends from undergrad to give you a reference, good luck getting a job.

 

[kbb1]

Lol.. your friends "killing it" an anomaly not the average... your n=5 argument isn't a good one. On average you have to go to a top school to do real well in high finance, to argue otherwise is being obtuse.

Less than 10% chance at any of the firms you named. (Data point based on promotion timelines of people i know). One could argue that medicine is over rewarded not under rewarded. Medicine compared to tech fin , consulting and law is rewarded fairly equally if you are the best and you choose to grind. It seems you're making compensation arguments which aren't fair comparisons to Medicine because every other company is able to pay much more due to demand/ people available to do the job. There is one Google, there are thousands of hospitals.

I don’t know why you are so defensive! Sure, you can have your own opinions but why is it that just because google is competitive that it is not a viable option? I’m sure getting into med school took a lot of hard work/motivation, just as it does to be successful in a fortune500.

 

[managedcarefin]

I don’t know why you are so defensive! Sure, you can have your own opinions but why is it that just because google is competitive that it is not a viable option? I’m sure getting into med school took a lot of hard work/motivation, just as it does to be successful in a fortune500.

...We are having a discussion you make a point I make a counter point...what is defensive?

 

[kbb1]

...We are having a discussion you make a point I make a counter point...what is defensive?

The way you argue your points by basing them off of “people you know”? It sounds like a lot of people you know are not successful at what they are doing. I’m sorry that’s your experience but there are also many people who do succeed in the marketplace. There are people who take risks and those who don’t. It’s not productive to argue which is better...?

 

[Chibucks15]

The way you argue your points by basing them off of “people you know”? It sounds like a lot of people you know are not successful at what they are doing. I’m sorry that’s your experience but there are also many people who do succeed in the marketplace. There’s are people who take risks and those who don’t. It’s not productive to argue which is better...?

If we’re talking pure numbers Medicine is easier to attain and safer. There shouldn’t be an argument there. For every 1 person who takes risks in business and becomes Uber successful, there’s at least 4 that fail.

Most people aren’t gonna be the “special case” that they were always told they would be when they were growing up. Which seems to be what you’re referring to in your points, at least from how I see it

 

[VincentAdultman]

OP you got into medicine for bad reasons, the end.