Merger 2020

[deleted898021]

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Will the merger weed out the IMG's? Discuss and let me know what y'all think.. How long before these off shore schools close? Theres way too many DO and MD schools popping up for the IMG's and FMG's to even get spots. I really hope that sometime in the near future NO ONE other than someone trained on US soil(DO or MD) gets a residency spot here.. PERIOD. I am not paying damn taxes and taking federal loans out for someone who went to ROSS and partied or some random dude from some no name random country coming in and taking a spot from someone who did it the hard way here. I do admit that some FMG's are superstars but they should serve those countries where they went to medical school cause that was the intent for the medical school who admitted them, not to pack their bags and do a FM residency in Iowa lol.

 

[Lawpy]

That's what I feel but I'm not sure. Agreed with preference given to US graduates first before looking into IMGs.

 

[Animalcules]

Will the merger weed out the IMG's? Discuss and let me know what y'all think.. How long before these off shore schools close? Theres way too many DO and MD schools popping up for the IMG's and FMG's to even get spots. I really hope that sometime in the near future NO ONE other than someone trained on US soil(DO or MD) gets a residency spot here.. PERIOD. I am not paying damn taxes and taking federal loans out for someone who went to ROSS and partied or some random dude from some no name random country coming in and taking a spot from someone who did it the hard way here. I do admit that some FMG's are superstars but they should serve those countries where they went to medical school cause that was the intent for the medical school who admitted them, not to pack their bags and do a FM residency in Iowa lol.

God, I thought the moderators had just closed this xenophobic thread two days ago, but it keeps popping up. I hope every time you buy a coffee, your 16 cents of tax dollars go directly into a ACGME financed spot for random dudes from random countries who had a super easy time getting here.

 

[WoundupKnight]

It’s not xenophobia, literally EVERY other country has barriers for entry for foreign physicians.

So does the US.

I can’t just decide to wake up one day, give a test and apply for a residency spot in say Japan or Korea or India etc, these countries all have mechanisms to prevent that kind of stuff from happening cause they value their physicians.

Sure you can. And if you really want to slog it out in India making $15-$25k a year seeing 70 patients a day more power to you.

Why can’t the US do it?

Because we rely on FMG/IMGs to fill our IM spots (and FM to a lesser extent). Without them we’d see a glut of PCPs.

Maybe it was justifiable in the past but now with rapid school expansion and no growth in GME, it’s time that we also put forth such barriers that other countries have for years, its only fair if we did too.

There is no reason that someone who went to school here was able to graduate, passed the licensing exams and wasn’t able to match into a residency/get a job.

Sure there are.

That NEVER happens to physicians in other countries

Citation?

You can have an MD but be forced to work a$40,000 job with massive debt and it’s scary. It’s all great and all until it’s you or someone you know who is in that spot, I am sure there a quite a few people like that.

How much do you think residents make?

 

[AMEHigh]

It’s not xenophobia, literally EVERY other country has barriers for entry for foreign physicians . I can’t just decide to wake up one day, give a test and apply for a residency spot in say Japan or Korea or India etc, these countries all have mechanisms to prevent that kind of stuff from happening cause they value their physicians. Why can’t the US do it? Maybe it was justifiable in the past but now with rapid school expansion and no growth in GME, it’s time that we also put forth such barriers that other countries have for years, its only fair if we did too. There is no reason that someone who went to school here was able to graduate, passed the licensing exams and wasn’t able to match into a residency/get a job. That NEVER happens to physicians in other countries, it’s mind boggling that it can/ happens here. You can have an MD but be forced to work a$40,000 job with massive debt and it’s scary. It’s all great and all until it’s you or someone you know who is in that spot, I am sure there a quite a few people like that.

At least get your facts straight if you’re going to be ignorant.
You can actually practice medicine in Japan coming from the US in a somewhat simple process. In Japan if you have a medical license from the US or U.K. you can set up a private practice without passing their medical exams. You won’t be able to accept their national health insurance, but you will be able to accept patients who are willing to pay, this works especially well in tourist areas for example.

That certainly can’t happen here in the US. So yeah continue on with the xenophobia.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Dude. Just chill and you. If you can’t outcompete then you don’t deserve that spot. If these people get a spot over you, it’s just like when DOs get a spot over an MD. The only way to do it is to definitely be more qualified.

Keep in mind that the way you feel about Caribs is the way a lot of MDs feel about DOs. Not saying that either is justified though.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Dude. Just chill and you. If you can’t outcompete then you don’t deserve that spot.

Best summed up statement for why OP's post is stupid.

IMGs have to bust their butt as it is just to be considered a residency here. If they are able to practice here, they most likely earned it.

 

[wonko]

random dude from some no name random country coming in and taking a spot from someone who did it the hard way here. I do admit that some FMG's are superstars but they should serve those countries where they went to medical school cause that was the intent for the medical school who admitted them, not to pack their bags and do a FM residency in Iowa lol.

dude... get a reality check. Medical migration is real in almost all western countries and there's no escaping it.

 

[wonko]

That NEVER happens to physicians in other countries, it’s mind boggling that it can/ happens here.

Jeez... just go visit a German/Swiss/Luxembourgish/British hospital. 30-80% of the physicians on staff will not be nationals of the respective country.

 

[Goro]

Will the merger weed out the IMG's? Discuss and let me know what y'all think.. How long before these off shore schools close? Theres way too many DO and MD schools popping up for the IMG's and FMG's to even get spots. I really hope that sometime in the near future NO ONE other than someone trained on US soil(DO or MD) gets a residency spot here.. PERIOD. I am not paying damn taxes and taking federal loans out for someone who went to ROSS and partied or some random dude from some no name random country coming in and taking a spot from someone who did it the hard way here. I do admit that some FMG's are superstars but they should serve those countries where they went to medical school cause that was the intent for the medical school who admitted them, not to pack their bags and do a FM residency in Iowa lol.

Right now there are still more slots than bodies to fill them, so IMGs will get jobs, especially at sweatshops and malignant programs or where PDs are on the take, ummmm, getting educational stipends.

But DOs will get better jobs.

It's not as if IMGs are getting IM at NYU or Ortho at UCSF. It's IM at Rural Hospital and Grille in Jonesboro, AR.

The Carib schools can only be killed off when Congress denies giving their students gov't backed financial aid.

Protectionism isn't going to fly well in this forum and is better spent in the SPF.

And people don't go to Ross and their ilk to party. Ross and their ilk are looking to cull the herd, as per their business model, so those students are actually working their asses off in glorified Step I prep.

 

[Goro]

I agree with everything you said, but I have a friend of mine who recently went to MUA or some caribbean school and all I see her friends doing is partying and having fun, obviously not everyone is doing that but thats just the image i get in my mind when I hear Carribean school lol

And those kids are going to get dismissed. In fact, that's why they're in MUA in the first place, because they did that at the UG level.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I agree with everything you said, but I have a friend of mine who recently went to MUA or some caribbean school and all I see her friends doing is partying and having fun, obviously not everyone is doing that but thats just the image i get in my mind when I hear Carribean school lol

C’mon man. Everyone is perfect on FB. My friends in school post stuff like this all the time and I know that the week before they were grinding 10+ hrs/day. Getting to third year from the Caribbean is brutal even compared to the hell we go through to get there in the states. Someone who matches well from the Caribbean has nothing but respect from me bc they likely worked harder than I did to do it.

 

[hungrydoc710]

I honestly think we'd have a better chance of pushing out IMG's if/when boards move to a pass/fail system.
However, I believe that will also force DO's into Peeds, Internal, Family Med, EM, Neuro, Psych specialities.

I don't think this change will come fast enough and we as DO students will have to show our metal on Step 1.

On a different note
Your articulation in the original post makes you sound uneducated and quite arrogant. You may want to curb that.

 

[LebronManning]

Coming from someone that is starting at a US MD school next month, your post simply reeks of insecurity.

It has the vibe of some stupid Alabama redneck talking about "those damn Asians taking our jobs." No, Raj the Neurologist did not take the trucking job you missed out on.

What's this whole post about? Are you complaining about US DOs and MDs not being able to get residency spots? THAT ONLY HAPPENS IF YOU'RE AN IDIOT WHEN APPLYING TO RESIDENCY. From your post, it seems you're going to attend a DO school, and your inferiority complex is really showing in this post because you are trying to make it so you are superior to the IMGs. News flash: that's the same sentiment that makes some MD students look at you like stupid kids that couldn't cut it in getting into an MD school. I have 2 friends who graduated from SGU and one is in surgery residency and one is an IM resident going into cards. They went to SGU because they did party too hard in college but then figured their **** out and absolutely killed it in med school. Idk why you think the model that allowed them to do that is wrong. And then there's the concept of FMG physicians from other countries, and I truly feel sorry for you if you think we should stop allowing that. America has always been the beacon of everything good and you know why? Because we're a meritocracy. We're gonna allow a top FMG a spot because they are more bright than many of our students and certainly our DOs.

So maybe stop stupid posts like this that put your insecurity on full blast and work hard enough that you don't have to worry about matching for residency. Because one thing is for sure and that your route to residency is paved with silk compared to the road these IMGs had to take to get here.

 

[LebronManning]

C’mon man. Everyone is perfect on FB. My friends in school post stuff like this all the time and I know that the week before they were grinding 10+ hrs/day. Getting to third year from the Caribbean is brutal even compared to the hell we go through to get there in the states. Someone who matches well from the Caribbean has nothing but respect from me bc they likely worked harder than I did to do it.

Exactly. My 2 friends that are residents from SGU here literally worked 10x harder than I am about to or other residents who went to US schools.

 

[Goro]

C’mon man. Everyone is perfect on FB. My friends in school post stuff like this all the time and I know that the week before they were grinding 10+ hrs/day. Getting to third year from the Caribbean is brutal even compared to the hell we go through to get there in the states. Someone who matches well from the Caribbean has nothing but respect from me bc they likely worked harder than I did to do it.

Indeed. I have no ill will towards Carib grads, only to their predatory schools. The grads have literally made it through a threshing machine.

 

[LebronManning]

Dude. Just chill and you. If you can’t outcompete then you don’t deserve that spot. If these people get a spot over you, it’s just like when DOs get a spot over an MD. The only way to do it is to definitely be more qualified.

Keep in mind that the way you feel about Caribs is the way a lot of MDs feel about DOs. Not saying that either is justified though.

Wish I would have read this prior to my rant above haha. Spot on.

 

[Goro]

Never said anything about America not being a meritocracy.. ever.. Read my post, I wouldn't mind a superstar FMG in any field if they came here gave the USMLE 1-3 and got straight to practicing. I don't see the point of them having to repeat a residency and in that sense increase competition from those who went to school here in terms of residency. Because unlike that med school grad the FMG does have a job back home in his country. Also read my post, I did say that the Caribbean was a very viable option some 5-10 years ago, congrats on your friends for making it out! But now with the increase in MD and DO schools, your friends could have easily done some grade repair and gotten into a DO school at the least , I know that because I did exactly that and I am blessed with the opportunity to become a physician who can serve someone someday, but I wish that the Caribbean pathway no longer existed anymore, theres plenty of medical schools stateside and theres limited/no increase in residency. It will only continue to get worse. The caribbean no longer should be a viable option since like @Goro said they are nothing more than Step 1 prep schools. People like your friends will most likely have gotten into a DO school and still be fine.

The anger is misdirected and will serve no useful function.

 

[LebronManning]

Never said anything about America not being a meritocracy.. ever.. Read my post, I wouldn't mind a superstar FMG in any field if they came here gave the USMLE 1-3 and got straight to practicing. I don't see the point of them having to repeat a residency and in that sense increase competition from those who went to school here in terms of residency. Because unlike that med school grad the FMG does have a job back home in his country. Also read my post, I did say that the Caribbean was a very viable option some 5-10 years ago, congrats on your friends for making it out! But now with the increase in MD and DO schools, your friends could have easily done some grade repair and gotten into a DO school at the least , I know that because I did exactly that and I am blessed with the opportunity to become a physician who can serve someone someday, but I wish that the Caribbean pathway no longer existed anymore, theres plenty of medical schools stateside and theres limited/no increase in residency. It will only continue to get worse. The caribbean no longer should be a viable option since like @Goro said they are nothing more than Step 1 prep schools. People like your friends will most likely have gotten into a DO school and still be fine. Also congrats to your for getting into medical school. I wish you the best!

If the Caribbean gets phased out, it gets phased out. For now, it actually still is a viable option for those that are willing to take the risk. Obviously not as good an option as a DO for VAST MAJORITY of people. There are thousands more residency spots than US medical school spots right now. You have to realize that yes medical schools are growing but so are residency spots albeit at maybe a slower right but there are ebbs and flows with everything. Whether it gets phased out in the future is not really the point of contention here though.

I think you are overplaying US students not matching. If you don't match as a US student, I truly question your ability to handle being a physician. It means you either failed step multiple times or were very very poor in assessing what specialty and programs you should apply for. Even if its the latter, you can fix that and match next cycle. For those who truly don't match, I hate to say it, but you don't just get to be a doctor because you got into med school. You gotta do the whole med school thing right too, and if you didnt match as a US student, you didnt do it right.

Also, yes you would mind if FMGs could just pass step 1-3 and practice here because then we would have a huge oversaturation of doctors and we would make less money. Residency system provides the control.

Also, yeah carib schools are step 1 machines, but what exactly do you think the 1st 2 years at our stateside schools are? haha

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Will the merger weed out the IMG's? Discuss and let me know what y'all think.. How long before these off shore schools close? Theres way too many DO and MD schools popping up for the IMG's and FMG's to even get spots. I really hope that sometime in the near future NO ONE other than someone trained on US soil(DO or MD) gets a residency spot here.. PERIOD. I am not paying damn taxes and taking federal loans out for someone who went to ROSS and partied or some random dude from some no name random country coming in and taking a spot from someone who did it the hard way here. I do admit that some FMG's are superstars but they should serve those countries where they went to medical school cause that was the intent for the medical school who admitted them, not to pack their bags and do a FM residency in Iowa lol.

The AOA and the AMA both currently support a rule that would force residency programs to consider AMGs first, then IMGs and FMGs. So it's only a matter of time before that happens, and then the era of the residency sweatshops will be over.

 

[Osminog]

I don't know why anybody is talking about the Caribbean being phased out. The merger will help IMGs, not hurt them. IMGs will now have the ability to match into Traditional Rotating Internships (which will now he regular ACGME transitional programs); these used to be DO-only and often go unfilled, but now they can be filled to the brink with IMGs looking to use them as a launching pad. Also, formerly AOA programs (even those in noncompetitive specialties) may very well end up preferring high-achieving IMGs over low-achieving DOs.

 

[Ho0v-man]

I don't know why anybody is talking about the Caribbean being phased out. The merger will help IMGs, not hurt them. IMGs will now have the ability to match into Traditional Rotating Internships (which will now he regular ACGME transitional programs); these used to be DO-only and often go unfilled, but now they can be filled to the brink with IMGs looking to use them as a launching pad. Also, formerly AOA programs (even those in noncompetitive specialties) may very well end up preferring high-achieving IMGs over low-achieving DOs.

my dream is that most of our former programs apply for osteopathic recognition. That way the only people who know omm are Caribbean students who turned up their noses at DO school. The ultimate plot twist!

This wouldn’t affect the high achieving Caribs you’re talking about though.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Coming from someone that is starting at a US MD school next month, your post simply reeks of insecurity.

It has the vibe of some stupid Alabama redneck talking about "those damn Asians taking our jobs." No, Raj the Neurologist did not take the trucking job you missed out on.

What's this whole post about? Are you complaining about US DOs and MDs not being able to get residency spots? THAT ONLY HAPPENS IF YOU'RE AN IDIOT WHEN APPLYING TO RESIDENCY. From your post, it seems you're going to attend a DO school, and your inferiority complex is really showing in this post because you are trying to make it so you are superior to the IMGs. News flash: that's the same sentiment that makes some MD students look at you like stupid kids that couldn't cut it in getting into an MD school. I have 2 friends who graduated from SGU and one is in surgery residency and one is an IM resident going into cards. They went to SGU because they did party too hard in college but then figured their **** out and absolutely killed it in med school. Idk why you think the model that allowed them to do that is wrong. And then there's the concept of FMG physicians from other countries, and I truly feel sorry for you if you think we should stop allowing that. America has always been the beacon of everything good and you know why? Because we're a meritocracy. We're gonna allow a top FMG a spot because they are more bright than many of our students and certainly our DOs.

So maybe stop stupid posts like this that put your insecurity on full blast and work hard enough that you don't have to worry about matching for residency. Because one thing is for sure and that your route to residency is paved with silk compared to the road these IMGs had to take to get here.

You're post means well, but I think you too are trying to makes waves that DO's are lesser than.

 

[hungrydoc710]

I don't know why anybody is talking about the Caribbean being phased out. The merger will help IMGs, not hurt them. IMGs will now have the ability to match into Traditional Rotating Internships (which will now he regular ACGME transitional programs); these used to be DO-only and often go unfilled, but now they can be filled to the brink with IMGs looking to use them as a launching pad. Also, formerly AOA programs (even those in noncompetitive specialties) may very well end up preferring high-achieving IMGs over low-achieving DOs.

The only thing an IMG can possible have over a US medical student is thier board scores.
Take that away, and thier peice of paper says CARIBBEAN MED EDUCATION + Passing Board score.
Ours will say the AMERICAN MED SCHOOL EDUATION + Passed Boards

Who would you take?

 

[Osminog]

The only thing an IMG can possible have over a US medical student is thier board scores.
Take that away, and thier peice of paper says CARIBBEAN MED EDUCATION + Passing Board score.
Ours will say the AMERICAN MED SCHOOL EDUATION + Passed Boards

Who would you take?

Well, some DO grads have board failures. Many have been able to scrape by and land into AOA FM/IM spots. Now they can be replaced by IMGs who passed all their boards the first time.

 

[hallowmann]

At least get your facts straight if you’re going to be ignorant.
You can actually practice medicine in Japan coming from the US in a somewhat simple process. In Japan if you have a medical license from the US or U.K. you can set up a private practice without passing their medical exams. You won’t be able to accept their national health insurance, but you will be able to accept patients who are willing to pay, this works especially well in tourist areas for example.

That certainly can’t happen here in the US. So yeah continue on with the xenophobia.

OP's completely out of touch with respect to international medical training and practice rights. There are actually many countries (sure not all) that US MDs can walk into and practice with far lower barriers than the US. Here we require someone to take licensing exams in our language (the same thing OP described as outrageous for Japan to do to US grads), they must have all medical school forms verified through the ECFMG (ask any foreign grads how much of a bureaucratic nightmare all that paperwork is), they then have to apply for residency where they basically have to spend thousands of dollars applying to 100s (most I've talked to apply to at least 150-200) of programs just to get a handful of interviews for a low chance at matching, then even if they do match, they are completely at the mercy of the visa system whether or not they'd even be able to be employed and start residency. This doesn't even touch on the limitations being an IMG may have on individual state licensure. This is a process that takes most foreign grads years (like 3-4) before even getting into residency. The only reason Carib grads do it quicjer is that their training is integrated in the process and they don't have to worry about visas. They still have all the other barriers, and often Carib grads end up spending 5 yrs in medical training rather than 4 yrs because of those.

OP obviously has little knowledge of medical licensing/training, let alone international medical licensing/training.

 

[hungrydoc710]

Well, some DO grads have board failures. Many have been able to scrape by and land into AOA FM/IM spots. Now they can be replaced by IMGs who passed all their boards the first time.

Well sure that's the case.
But, point being that it makes you look at the site of medical education moreso than now when board scores determine all.
I'm not rly in favor or against, just making a case that a P/F boards would really mess with Carrib students.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

My 2 friends that are residents from SGU here literally worked 10x harder than I am about to or other residents who went to US schools.

Lol the pre-med here telling people how hard he is about to work. Nice.

and then the era of the residency sweatshops will be over.

Nope. They will simply be filled with poor performing DOs desperate for any residency spot.

I don't know why anybody is talking about the Caribbean being phased out. The merger will help IMGs, not hurt them.

In a vacuum yes, however with US school expansion (both MD and DO) no it won't, they are going to get hit hard.

IMGs will now have the ability to match into Traditional Rotating Internships (which will now he regular ACGME transitional programs); these used to be DO-only and often go unfille

They go unfilled for a reason.... and a one year internship doesn't mean crap. These people already fill literally hundreds of pre-lim medicine/surgery spots already. The TRIs that will transition are about to become extremely competitive, because of the way they have their rotation schedule set up. Similar to the ACGME transitional year spots.

Well, some DO grads have board failures.

Lol anyone with board failures will have a hard time finding a residency, MD or DO alike.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

Dude. Just chill and you. If you can’t outcompete then you don’t deserve that spot. If these people get a spot over you, it’s just like when DOs get a spot over an MD. The only way to do it is to definitely be more qualified.

Keep in mind that the way you feel about Caribs is the way a lot of MDs feel about DOs. Not saying that either is justified though.

Well no that’s not how it works lol. Maybe a few spots at top places. Just a disclaimer I am not a fan of threads like this. The places that have IMGs usually have bias (not bc the IMG outcompetes the DO). Usually the PD was a IMG or they have some link to an international/Carib institution.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Well no that’s not how it works lol. Maybe a few spots at top places. Just a disclaimer I am not a fan of threads like this. The places that have IMGs usually have bias (not bc the IMG outcompetes the DO). Usually the PD was a IMG or they have some link to an international/Carib institution.

Some of these programs also get paid under the table to accept Carib students.

 

[LebronManning]

Lol the pre-med here telling people how hard he is about to work. Nice.

LOL, I start med school in less than 30 days and you have a problem with me knowing the workload I have in front of me....in about 30 days. It's not exactly rocket science to look ahead and what I'm gonna need to do over the next 4 years. And it's not a stretch to say its going to be easier than what a carib grad trying to match a residency like me will have to go through.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Well no that’s not how it works lol. Maybe a few spots at top places. Just a disclaimer I am not a fan of threads like this. The places that have IMGs usually have bias (not bc the IMG outcompetes the DO). Usually the PD was a IMG or they have some link to an international/Carib institution.

And how is this any different than a higher performing img being ranked lower than a DO student bc the PD is a DO and affiliated with an osteopathic school that didn’t apply for osteopathic recognition?

It’s not automatically discrimination when a DO doesn’t get a spot. If you’re a Carib grad you’ll probably take a grad from the same school you went to over an applicant from an osteopathic school you’ve probably never heard of. That’s not unfair or discrimination. If you want to say it is, then acknowledge that we do it just as much, probably more tbh.

Edit: outside of surgical subs and derm, why does any DO student care about this? Like I get it if you want those protected spots but it’s nonsense otherwise. The spots that prefer IMGs are usually community IM/FM sweatshops that violate work hour restrictions and the DO spots that might open up to IMGs aren’t all filling in the aoa match anyway.