Mid level creep in Internal Medicine Subspecialties?

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Redpancreas

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I know this topic has been beat to death here but I just wanted to hear what people had to say about mid level autonomy prospects for IM fields such as Cards, GI, Heme/Onc, and Pulm/Crit. I always figured this wasn’t a major concern and one of the last fields where this would happen because of the mix of diagnostic skills and procedural elements, but I’ve read some things about nurses performing diagnostic caths at Duke and endoscopies at Johns Hopkins and was wondering what the status is in these areas?

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I used to worry about this until I worked alongside many different mid-levels. They won't be replacing physicians anytime soon. More likely that computers/AI will replace doctors before mid-levels do.
 
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The AAMC released a comprehensive report on projected supply and demand for physicians, taking into account different projections of mid-level engagement. It basically says that anesthesia, primary care and OB-GYN are the most vulnerable to mid-levels, medical specialists - like the ones you mentioned - are less vulnerable, and surgery is the least vulnerable. So if your top concern is performing a job that requires an MD/DO, go into surgery. You can read the full report here: https://aamc-black.global.ssl.fastl...c_projections_update_2017_final_-_june_12.pdf
 
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A nurse did a cath? What the heck? Lmao what is this world coming to.
 
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I know this topic has been beat to death here but I just wanted to hear what people had to say about mid level autonomy prospects for IM fields such as Cards, GI, Heme/Onc, and Pulm/Crit. I always figured this wasn’t a major concern and one of the last fields where this would happen because of the mix of diagnostic skills and procedural elements, but I’ve read some things about nurses performing diagnostic caths at Duke and endoscopies at Johns Hopkins and was wondering what the status is in these areas?
Glad you start doing your own research now... A lot physicians who are saying NP are not a threat is because they are making $$$ off midlevels.
 
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I know this topic has been beat to death here but I just wanted to hear what people had to say about mid level autonomy prospects for IM fields such as Cards, GI, Heme/Onc, and Pulm/Crit. I always figured this wasn’t a major concern and one of the last fields where this would happen because of the mix of diagnostic skills and procedural elements, but I’ve read some things about nurses performing diagnostic caths at Duke and endoscopies at Johns Hopkins and was wondering what the status is in these areas?
There is a huge need for IM subspecialty NPs where I am at. We have them in a bunch of the IM sub-groups. They are actively recruiting a Cardio and Pulm NP, and recently got a Nephro NP. The specialties love it since the NPs help with rounding, and for routine follow ups, the MDs aren't required to lay eyes on the patient, but they have to hear about the cases by the NP.
 
There is a huge need for IM subspecialty NPs where I am at. We have them in a bunch of the IM sub-groups. They are actively recruiting a Cardio and Pulm NP, and recently got a Nephro NP. The specialties love it since the NPs help with rounding, and for routine follow ups, the MDs aren't required to lay eyes on the patient, but they have to hear about the cases by the NP.

Who are the "specialties" you speak of? I'm guessing these are real people we're talking about here, since abstract entities that go by the terms like "specialty" are not sentient and thus cannot love or hate anything. Are these people who "love it" hospital administrators, practice managers, PP owners, or what?

Also, what do you mean by there being a "huge need" for subspecialty NPs? Are these NPs being hired for jobs that would in earlier times have gone to MDs?
 
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Who are the "specialties" you speak of? I'm guessing these are real people we're talking about here, since abstract entities that go by the terms like "specialty" are not sentient and thus cannot love or hate anything. Are these people who "love it" hospital administrators, practice managers, PP owners, or what?

Also, what do you mean by there being a "huge need" for subspecialty NPs? Are these NPs being hired for jobs that would in earlier times have gone to MDs?
Did you just not read beyond the 1st line of the post?

They list cards, pulm, and nephology specifically.

They list why they want them - rounding and routine follow ups. Things the MD would normally do but now can delegate out freeing more time for consults/procedures/life
 
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Glad you start doing your own research now... A lot physicians who are saying NP are not a threat is because they are making $$$ off midlevels.
I post this about once every six months and I guess we're due again.

Disclaimer: I have no relationship of any kind with any midlevel - I don't employ them, I don't work with them, I'm not married to one, and so on.

I'm family medicine, and I'm not all that worried about them. I get multiple new patients/month who come to me specifically because I don't have any midlevels. These are people who pay cash to see me leaving their insurance-based practices because they got tired of seeing midlevels.

I think this will actually get better for us. When everyone was paying a $10 copay, seeing the not-doctor wasn't a big deal. Now that we're all having to hit these insane deductibles first, people are paying more attention to who they see. If you're paying $90 for a visit, you're going to care a lot more who you see.

My wife's office has her an a midlevel. If you're willing to see the midlevel, you can get next day new patient appointments. My wife's NP wait is 4 weeks. The NP is still only getting a few new patients/week. The vast majority of people would rather wait a month than see a nurse practitioner.

In addition, one of the things I noticed back when I did urgent care is that the people who preferentially seek out midlevels (and they do exist) are folks who just want their insane biases validated. Its the same patients who go to Regenerative Medicine clinics or whatever where you get your IV Vitamin C and everyone gets testosterone no matter what. I don't want those people as patients, and neither does any respectable physician.
 
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I post this about once every six months and I guess we're due again.

Disclaimer: I have no relationship of any kind with any midlevel - I don't employ them, I don't work with them, I'm not married to one, and so on.

I'm family medicine, and I'm not all that worried about them. I get multiple new patients/month who come to me specifically because I don't have any midlevels. These are people who pay cash to see me leaving their insurance-based practices because they got tired of seeing midlevels.

I think this will actually get better for us. When everyone was paying a $10 copay, seeing the not-doctor wasn't a big deal. Now that we're all having to hit these insane deductibles first, people are paying more attention to who they see. If you're paying $90 for a visit, you're going to care a lot more who you see.

My wife's office has her an a midlevel. If you're willing to see the midlevel, you can get next day new patient appointments. My wife's NP wait is 4 weeks. The NP is still only getting a few new patients/week. The vast majority of people would rather wait a month than see a nurse practitioner.

In addition, one of the things I noticed back when I did urgent care is that the people who preferentially seek out midlevels (and they do exist) are folks who just want their insane biases validated. Its the same patients who go to Regenerative Medicine clinics or whatever where you get your IV Vitamin C and everyone gets testosterone no matter what. I don't want those people as patients, and neither does any respectable physician.

I dunno bro, sounds like a great cash cow to me
 
Who are the "specialties" you speak of? I'm guessing these are real people we're talking about here, since abstract entities that go by the terms like "specialty" are not sentient and thus cannot love or hate anything. Are these people who "love it" hospital administrators, practice managers, PP owners, or what?

Also, what do you mean by there being a "huge need" for subspecialty NPs? Are these NPs being hired for jobs that would in earlier times have gone to MDs?

The people who love it are:
Docs, lots of them
NPs
Admins

They are one big happy family. The MDs with NP fight hard for them. One said they wanted to get rid of his partner and stick with a NP instead. There are different opinions on the NP dynamic with physicians, A subgroup hate them outright, a subgroup don’t want them having independent rights, and a subgroup that heavily wants them involved.

An above post nailed it too. Docs want to lessen the load to free up time for other things. One doc told me he took pride in being a ringleader for a NP team and fights tooth and nail for them, playing a big role in taking new students all the time.
 
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Did you just not read beyond the 1st line of the post?

They list cards, pulm, and nephology specifically.

They list why they want them - rounding and routine follow ups. Things the MD would normally do but now can delegate out freeing more time for consults/procedures/life

I really doubt this will be adding to their “life” time. I’m sure the hospital/insurance company will be squeezing every single penny they can out of them
 
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I post this about once every six months and I guess we're due again.

Disclaimer: I have no relationship of any kind with any midlevel - I don't employ them, I don't work with them, I'm not married to one, and so on.

I'm family medicine, and I'm not all that worried about them. I get multiple new patients/month who come to me specifically because I don't have any midlevels. These are people who pay cash to see me leaving their insurance-based practices because they got tired of seeing midlevels.

I think this will actually get better for us. When everyone was paying a $10 copay, seeing the not-doctor wasn't a big deal. Now that we're all having to hit these insane deductibles first, people are paying more attention to who they see. If you're paying $90 for a visit, you're going to care a lot more who you see.

My wife's office has her an a midlevel. If you're willing to see the midlevel, you can get next day new patient appointments. My wife's NP wait is 4 weeks. The NP is still only getting a few new patients/week. The vast majority of people would rather wait a month than see a nurse practitioner.

In addition, one of the things I noticed back when I did urgent care is that the people who preferentially seek out midlevels (and they do exist) are folks who just want their insane biases validated. Its the same patients who go to Regenerative Medicine clinics or whatever where you get your IV Vitamin C and everyone gets testosterone no matter what. I don't want those people as patients, and neither does any respectable physician.

That’s how it was with the pcp I was going to see. I had to wait a month to see the MD, but could get in to see the NP the next day.
 
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I dunno bro, sounds like a great cash cow to me
It absolutely is. If in another 5 years I've given up all of my professional morals, I could definitely see whoring myself out with a bunch of mid-levels, sitting back and raking in the money
 
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The people who love it are:
Docs, lots of them
NPs
Admins

They are one big happy family. The MDs with NP fight hard for them. One said they wanted to get rid of his partner and stick with a NP instead. There are different opinions on the NP dynamic with physicians, A subgroup hate them outright, a subgroup don’t want them having independent rights, and a subgroup that heavily wants them involved.

An above post nailed it too. Docs want to lessen the load to free up time for other things. One doc told me he took pride in being a ringleader for a NP team and fights tooth and nail for them, playing a big role in taking new students all the time.

That makes sense. It's important to recognize that not everyone is on the same timeline. For a doctor who's been in practice for 10+ years and is only 5-10 years away from financial independence, becoming a sellout is almost certainly the correct decision, financially speaking. If you're already making 500k a year, and using midlevels can bump that number up to 800k per year, you'll almost certainly be out of the game and chillin' like a villain before the results of your sellout completely destroy the profession and screw those coming after you. Same thing happened to EM where the geezers sold out their PP groups to CMGs and the whole field is now corporitized as a result with everyone being an employee.

Us medical students are in a different timeline. The profession is being destroyed while we're still waiting in line getting our arses kicked and being saddled with opportunity cost, and we're not profiting from the destruction like currently practicing sellouts are. All we can do is cross our fingers and hope that there is indeed "a lot of ruin in a nation" and that we'll still be able to get some ROI on our investment by the time we actually begin our careers X years from now.

The point is, if you're a medical student, it's unwise to look at that middle aged cardiologist with his army of midlevels helping him earn close to 7 figures and think "that'll be me one day" because it likely won't be you. Being a sellout is possible only if you are established and have something to sellout with. We'll be trying to get in at the ground floor but the sellouts will have sold the ladder for an extra buck.
 
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In addition, one of the things I noticed back when I did urgent care is that the people who preferentially seek out midlevels (and they do exist) are folks who just want their insane biases validated. Its the same patients who go to Regenerative Medicine clinics or whatever where you get your IV Vitamin C and everyone gets testosterone no matter what.
These are the patients we don't want anyway, so it is a win for us.

The day I stopped caring about mid-levels was when I was in the MICU during intern year, and this woman's husband was about to be intubated. She got all scared and was like, "You ARE an M.D. right?"

This was a woman who was a retired R.N. She did NOT want a nurse practitioner when the S hit the F. And in fact, there are many, many people like this out there.
 
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These are the patients we don't want anyway, so it is a win for us.

The day I stopped caring about mid-levels was when I was in the MICU during intern year, and this woman's husband was about to be intubated. She got all scared and was like, "You ARE an M.D. right?"

This was a woman who was a retired R.N. She did NOT want a nurse practitioner when the S hit the F. And in fact, there are many, many people like this out there.
True. But that's why nurse and PAs are going to "residencies" and "fellowships." Slowly blurring the lines until medical professional nomenclature doesn't matter anymore.
 
These are the patients we don't want anyway, so it is a win for us.

The day I stopped caring about mid-levels was when I was in the MICU during intern year, and this woman's husband was about to be intubated. She got all scared and was like, "You ARE an M.D. right?"

This was a woman who was a retired R.N. She did NOT want a nurse practitioner when the S hit the F. And in fact, there are many, many people like this out there.

The less you care, the more the lines will be blurred. They want you to think like this. They're actively pursuing it. We shouldn't be this passive about it and just giving everything away without a fight.
 
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I used to worry about this until I worked alongside many different mid-levels. They won't be replacing physicians anytime soon. More likely that computers/AI will replace doctors before mid-levels do.
Equip the midlevels with computers and viola.
Glad you start doing your own research now... A lot physicians who are saying NP are not a threat is because they are making $$$ off midlevels.
110% this.
The people who love it are:
Docs, lots of them
NPs
Admins

They are one big happy family. The MDs with NP fight hard for them. One said they wanted to get rid of his partner and stick with a NP instead. There are different opinions on the NP dynamic with physicians, A subgroup hate them outright, a subgroup don’t want them having independent rights, and a subgroup that heavily wants them involved.

An above post nailed it too. Docs want to lessen the load to free up time for other things. One doc told me he took pride in being a ringleader for a NP team and fights tooth and nail for them, playing a big role in taking new students all the time.
Ah yes.. being a sell out then having an escape plan via retirement.
These are the patients we don't want anyway, so it is a win for us.

The day I stopped caring about mid-levels was when I was in the MICU during intern year, and this woman's husband was about to be intubated. She got all scared and was like, "You ARE an M.D. right?"

This was a woman who was a retired R.N. She did NOT want a nurse practitioner when the S hit the F. And in fact, there are many, many people like this out there.
You're counting on an educated population and using selection bias. Many people want someone genuinely qualified, of course. Some even want the ivy league MD with 2 fellowships only. But most people have no idea who's who. Lots and lots of NPs on their review/ratings sites have patients referring to them as "physicians" or "doctors."
That person in a white coat is a doctor to most sick patients.

Fact is... this is basically calling for direct competition from midlevels and they have no business competing in the first place. They should be working under direct supervision at all times with a very small attending:mid level ratio.
 
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For the most part, patient's don't know who is who, I can't count how many times they have said in the hospital "I don't know who's my doctor today, so many people in white coats!".

And yes to MedicineZ, people selling out is a dime a dozen :D
 
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I used to worry about this until I worked alongside many different mid-levels. They won't be replacing physicians anytime soon. More likely that computers/AI will replace doctors before mid-levels do.

So true, especially for rads and path.
 
True. But that's why nurse and PAs are going to "residencies" and "fellowships." Slowly blurring the lines until medical professional nomenclature doesn't matter anymore.
Those "fellowships" are not really anything remotely resembling a residency. Even the NPs and PAs who do them know this (at least 90% of them do).
 
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Perhaps the better question is this:

Should an MD even be doing a job that an NP or PA can do?

I would argue that no, they shouldn’t. Fundamental to this whole debate is the fact that MDs have been practicing well below their level of training in many fields. We can cite the profound differences between our education and that of midlevels, but that’s not the point. The point is how often are we actually using all that education and training? What is it that we actually do that others cannot do as well?

I find the “but what if the NP misses something” arguments to be lacking. Why should we have an MD doing a job an NP could do for 50 hours a week in hopes that maybe one 10 minute span will give the MD a chance to catch something others would miss? Not only are these rare, but often a minor delay doesn’t make any difference in outcome. Yes it does sometimes, but we all know these are incredibly rare and many MDs miss them too.

So what do we do that’s special? I would suggest it’s the synthesis and complex analysis of information, often combined with a procedural skill that requires constant thinking and analysis to perform safely and effectively. It also includes the ability to convey this information to patients in an understandable format and facilitate effective shared decision making about their care. Unfortunately, there are many areas of medicine where things have evolved to the point that MDs are no longer doing this anyhow and these are precisely where midlevels are coming in. We always hear docs lamenting how their jobs are all clicks and documentation and little actual thinking md caring for patients. Is it any surprise that a midlevel can click and type as well as a physician?

The unpalatable truth is that we are vastly overtraining many MDs for jobs that do not require it. Many students are getting this and you see it reflected in their residency and fellowship choices. The docs who are hiring these midlevels don’t think of themselves as selling out but rather as allowing themselves to act and think like physicians again by delegating lower complexity tasks to midlevels. Yes, there was a time when MDs made great livings doing those low complexity tasks, but those days are gone.

The other angle is that the public doesn’t even want us to do these jobs anyhow. Does anyone with an acute illness really want to sit in our waiting room while they feel like crap and then pay a large copay to come tell us thee symptoms to maybe get prescribed a med that’s over the counter in the rest of the developed world? Is it any wonder people are all too happy to pop into a minute clinic and see an NP? And before we get too self righteous, is there a doc on this board who gets an acute illness and actually goes to see another MD and sits in their waiting room? Or do we text our buddy and ask them to call us in the thing we think we need?
 
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Perhaps the better question is this:

Should an MD even be doing a job that an NP or PA can do?

I would argue that no, they shouldn’t. Fundamental to this whole debate is the fact that MDs have been practicing well below their level of training in many fields. We can cite the profound differences between our education and that of midlevels, but that’s not the point. The point is how often are we actually using all that education and training? What is it that we actually do that others cannot do as well?

I find the “but what if the NP misses something” arguments to be lacking. Why should we have an MD doing a job an NP could do for 50 hours a week in hopes that maybe one 10 minute span will give the MD a chance to catch something others would miss? Not only are these rare, but often a minor delay doesn’t make any difference in outcome. Yes it does sometimes, but we all know these are incredibly rare and many MDs miss them too.

So what do we do that’s special? I would suggest it’s the synthesis and complex analysis of information, often combined with a procedural skill that requires constant thinking and analysis to perform safely and effectively. It also includes the ability to convey this information to patients in an understandable format and facilitate effective shared decision making about their care. Unfortunately, there are many areas of medicine where things have evolved to the point that MDs are no longer doing this anyhow and these are precisely where midlevels are coming in. We always hear docs lamenting how their jobs are all clicks and documentation and little actual thinking md caring for patients. Is it any surprise that a midlevel can click and type as well as a physician?

The unpalatable truth is that we are vastly overtraining many MDs for jobs that do not require it. Many students are getting this and you see it reflected in their residency and fellowship choices. The docs who are hiring these midlevels don’t think of themselves as selling out but rather as allowing themselves to act and think like physicians again by delegating lower complexity tasks to midlevels. Yes, there was a time when MDs made great livings doing those low complexity tasks, but those days are gone.

The other angle is that the public doesn’t even want us to do these jobs anyhow. Does anyone with an acute illness really want to sit in our waiting room while they feel like crap and then pay a large copay to come tell us thee symptoms to maybe get prescribed a med that’s over the counter in the rest of the developed world? Is it any wonder people are all too happy to pop into a minute clinic and see an NP? And before we get too self righteous, is there a doc on this board who gets an acute illness and actually goes to see another MD and sits in their waiting room? Or do we text our buddy and ask them to call us in the thing we think we need?
You're wrong about one thing: we (at least in primary care) make way more money doing low complexity tasks.

If I can see 3 URIs in the time it takes me to deal with the COPD exacerbation who by the way also has a glucose of 400 and and INR of 4, I will make way more money seeing the former than the latter.
 
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Those "fellowships" are not really anything remotely resembling a residency. Even the NPs and PAs who do them know this (at least 90% of them do).
I know that. You know that. But the hospital administration and bean counters know the public doesn’t know that and insurance companies don’t care.
 
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Perhaps the better question is this:

Should an MD even be doing a job that an NP or PA can do?

I would argue that no, they shouldn’t. Fundamental to this whole debate is the fact that MDs have been practicing well below their level of training in many fields. We can cite the profound differences between our education and that of midlevels, but that’s not the point. The point is how often are we actually using all that education and training? What is it that we actually do that others cannot do as well?

I find the “but what if the NP misses something” arguments to be lacking. Why should we have an MD doing a job an NP could do for 50 hours a week in hopes that maybe one 10 minute span will give the MD a chance to catch something others would miss? Not only are these rare, but often a minor delay doesn’t make any difference in outcome. Yes it does sometimes, but we all know these are incredibly rare and many MDs miss them too.

So what do we do that’s special? I would suggest it’s the synthesis and complex analysis of information, often combined with a procedural skill that requires constant thinking and analysis to perform safely and effectively. It also includes the ability to convey this information to patients in an understandable format and facilitate effective shared decision making about their care. Unfortunately, there are many areas of medicine where things have evolved to the point that MDs are no longer doing this anyhow and these are precisely where midlevels are coming in. We always hear docs lamenting how their jobs are all clicks and documentation and little actual thinking md caring for patients. Is it any surprise that a midlevel can click and type as well as a physician?

The unpalatable truth is that we are vastly overtraining many MDs for jobs that do not require it. Many students are getting this and you see it reflected in their residency and fellowship choices. The docs who are hiring these midlevels don’t think of themselves as selling out but rather as allowing themselves to act and think like physicians again by delegating lower complexity tasks to midlevels. Yes, there was a time when MDs made great livings doing those low complexity tasks, but those days are gone.

The other angle is that the public doesn’t even want us to do these jobs anyhow. Does anyone with an acute illness really want to sit in our waiting room while they feel like crap and then pay a large copay to come tell us thee symptoms to maybe get prescribed a med that’s over the counter in the rest of the developed world? Is it any wonder people are all too happy to pop into a minute clinic and see an NP? And before we get too self righteous, is there a doc on this board who gets an acute illness and actually goes to see another MD and sits in their waiting room? Or do we text our buddy and ask them to call us in the thing we think we need?
Your over training and over qualified argument doesn't work. Simply because it's true for almost every single job in the world. How much of pharmacy school is used in daily pharmacy practice? How about engineering? Or accounting? Law? You can go on and on about this. Reality is you could create a midlevel in every field. Just train a high school graduate to do xyz tasks that take up 80-90% of the days time and don't require much brain power.

So why do we think this is a justified argument in medicine? We have to pay 300k and sit through more than a decade of school and training just so someone who did 2 years of school can do the same job? It's quite simply not right. We can't isolate medicine and say it's justified but not do the same with every job in the world.
 
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Your over training and over qualified argument doesn't work. Simply because it's true for almost every single job in the world. How much of pharmacy school is used in daily pharmacy practice? How about engineering? Or accounting? Law? You can go on and on about this. Reality is you could create a midlevel in every field. Just train a high school graduate to do xyz tasks that take up 80-90% of the days time and don't require much brain power.

So why do we think this is a justified argument in medicine? We have to pay 300k and sit through more than a decade of school and training just so someone who did 2 years of school can do the same job? It's quite simply not right. We can't isolate medicine and say it's justified but not do the same with every job in the world.

Bingo. A pilot doesn't do **** for 90% of the time he's in the air, but you still pay him for that time because you expect someone with real skill to be in the cockpit when it comes time to land and there's fog, rain and crosswinds. If pilots were paid in such a way that they only got reimbursed for the 10% of the time their job couldn't be done by an inanimate test-dummy, who would take the damn job?

Easy cases for doctors are how they make money. If you take away easy cases, then doctors can't make money. If doctors can't make money, then there are no doctors. If there are no doctors, there's no one to take the hard cases.
 
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Bingo. A pilot doesn't do **** for 90% of the time he's in the air, but you still pay him for that time because you expect someone with real skill to be in the cockpit when it comes time to land and there's fog, rain and crosswinds. If pilots were paid in such a way that they only got reimbursed for the 10% of the time their job couldn't be done by an inanimate test-dummy, who would take the damn job?

Easy cases for doctors are how they make money. If you take away easy cases, then doctors can't make money. If doctors can't make money, then there are no doctors. If there are no doctors, there's no one to take the hard cases.
Exactly. This notion of midlevels seeing easy cases and doctors seeing harder stuff is horrible for the profession. It takes away from income and goes down a terrible road of turf wars.
And the shortage argument doesn't work. More doctors per capita in USA than most western countries yet we need all these midlevels for some reason? I don't buy it...
 
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Bingo. A pilot doesn't do **** for 90% of the time he's in the air, but you still pay him for that time because you expect someone with real skill to be in the cockpit when it comes time to land and there's fog, rain and crosswinds. If pilots were paid in such a way that they only got reimbursed for the 10% of the time their job couldn't be done by an inanimate test-dummy, who would take the damn job?

Easy cases for doctors are how they make money. If you take away easy cases, then doctors can't make money. If doctors can't make money, then there are no doctors. If there are no doctors, there's no one to take the hard cases.

The best response to this topic I have seen yet. QFT.
 
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Exactly. This notion of midlevels seeing easy cases and doctors seeing harder stuff is horrible for the profession. It takes away from income and goes down a terrible road of turf wars.
And the shortage argument doesn't work. More doctors per capita in USA than most western countries yet we need all these midlevels for some reason? I don't buy it...

Maybe the problem in US is we overutilize healthcare in general...


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Bingo. A pilot doesn't do **** for 90% of the time he's in the air, but you still pay him for that time because you expect someone with real skill to be in the cockpit when it comes time to land and there's fog, rain and crosswinds. If pilots were paid in such a way that they only got reimbursed for the 10% of the time their job couldn't be done by an inanimate test-dummy, who would take the damn job?

Easy cases for doctors are how they make money. If you take away easy cases, then doctors can't make money. If doctors can't make money, then there are no doctors. If there are no doctors, there's no one to take the hard cases.

Yeah but Americans in our society could care less about principles. For companies, it's all about benefits (healthcare) vs. cost ($$$). As long as America exists, we're going to be trying to find shortcuts to things even spite of any theoretical risks.
 
Maybe the problem in US is we overutilize healthcare in general...


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Overutilize specialists, and underutilize generalists. Using a generalist as a referologist is the mistake here. It's the family doc/im who was trained to handle uncomplicated specialized pathology. But the NPs/PAs make the argument that they should be "practicing to the top of their license."

Get the primary care docs to treat a lot of the stuff they refer out and suddenly you get a positive change in the system.
 
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Your over training and over qualified argument doesn't work. Simply because it's true for almost every single job in the world. How much of pharmacy school is used in daily pharmacy practice? How about engineering? Or accounting? Law? You can go on and on about this. Reality is you could create a midlevel in every field. Just train a high school graduate to do xyz tasks that take up 80-90% of the days time and don't require much brain power.

So why do we think this is a justified argument in medicine? We have to pay 300k and sit through more than a decade of school and training just so someone who did 2 years of school can do the same job? It's quite simply not right. We can't isolate medicine and say it's justified but not do the same with every job in the world.

I think it’s already happened or is happening in literally every field you mentioned.

Others mention aviation and that's an interesting correlate. The autopilots on the big jets today can and often do land the plane as well so the need for the pilot is negligible. You really could safely operate these aircraft with no pilot at all, but I think the public would balk at getting on a pilotless aircraft right now. There's also the simple fact that the pilot is one of the cheapest parts of operating a large aircraft. There are some interesting startups looking at using pilotless Very Light Jets for air-taxi services; if these gained traction and acceptance, then ultimately I could these spreading to commercial aviation at large. This actually sounds a lot like how midlevels have permeated the medical field!

So why would we want to spend the time and money to do a job that someone can do with 2 years of online courses? Or less? Hiring NPs and scribes and other support staff have actually been shown to improve physician happiness, likely because it offloads much of the crap work that we don’t want to do while simultaneous increasing revenue for the practice. The incredible numbers of new NPs coming out of school each year will only put more downward pressure on wages and allows physicians to pay less and less for these services.

How this will impact the profession as a whole remains to be seen, but I see the midlevels being ancillary players in a bigger story. Their push for independent practice dovetails with a major push from business to provide better, more convenient health services to their customers. The minute clinics and wal-mart primary care clinics and urgent care centers are all being staffed by midlevels and will certainly siphon away more and more of these generally lower acuity patients.

This is where it's interesting to me, because I personally think that if it were NPs clamoring for independent practice in order to hang out their own shingle across the street from the local family doc, none of us would care much because most patients would prefer to see the MD unless the midlevel could offer a lower cost or more convenient service. It's when we overlay the CorpMed aspect, the Sam's Choice NP clinic, that the threat changes and we see that the traditional MD practice model simply cannot compete with the low cost and convenience of these options. Again, I would cite the simple fact that none of us here avail ourselves of our own product when we or our family members get sick.

The midlevel debate is, to me, a red herring while the real threat to our current practice model lies in the rise of commercial medical care products that are more appealing to the average consumer than what we currently offer. All physicians, and primary care in particular, will need to offer a product people actually want to buy at a price they are willing to pay.
 
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I think it’s already happened or is happening in literally every field you mentioned.

Others mention aviation and that's an interesting correlate. The autopilots on the big jets today can and often do land the plane as well so the need for the pilot is negligible. You really could safely operate these aircraft with no pilot at all, but I think the public would balk at getting on a pilotless aircraft right now. There's also the simple fact that the pilot is one of the cheapest parts of operating a large aircraft. There are some interesting startups looking at using pilotless Very Light Jets for air-taxi services; if these gained traction and acceptance, then ultimately I could these spreading to commercial aviation at large. This actually sounds a lot like how midlevels have permeated the medical field!

So why would we want to spend the time and money to do a job that someone can do with 2 years of online courses? Or less? Hiring NPs and scribes and other support staff have actually been shown to improve physician happiness, likely because it offloads much of the crap work that we don’t want to do while simultaneous increasing revenue for the practice. The incredible numbers of new NPs coming out of school each year will only put more downward pressure on wages and allows physicians to pay less and less for these services.

How this will impact the profession as a whole remains to be seen, but I see the midlevels being ancillary players in a bigger story. Their push for independent practice dovetails with a major push from business to provide better, more convenient health services to their customers. The minute clinics and wal-mart primary care clinics and urgent care centers are all being staffed by midlevels and will certainly siphon away more and more of these generally lower acuity patients.

This is where it's interesting to me, because I personally think that if it were NPs clamoring for independent practice in order to hang out their own shingle across the street from the local family doc, none of us would care much because most patients would prefer to see the MD unless the midlevel could offer a lower cost or more convenient service. It's when we overlay the CorpMed aspect, the Sam's Choice NP clinic, that the threat changes and we see that the traditional MD practice model simply cannot compete with the low cost and convenience of these options. Again, I would cite the simple fact that none of us here avail ourselves of our own product when we or our family members get sick.

The midlevel debate is, to me, a red herring while the real threat to our current practice model lies in the rise of commercial medical care products that are more appealing to the average consumer than what we currently offer. All physicians, and primary care in particular, will need to offer a product people actually want to buy at a price they are willing to pay.

The consumer doesn't pay a thing. Medical billing is obfuscated by medical codes and third party payers. That's a nonsensical argument.

And I still sit in plenty of waiting rooms although I have definitely talked to the "I'm personal friends with the head of gastroenterology blah blah blah" self important douchebags.
 
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The consumer doesn't pay a thing. Medical billing is obfuscated by medical codes and third party payers. That's a nonsensical argument.

And I still sit in plenty of waiting rooms although I have definitely talked to the "I'm personal friends with the head of gastroenterology blah blah blah" self important douchebags.
Wrong. With the high deductibles that a large percentage of insured patients pay, the consumer absolutely pays quite a bit these days.
 
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Others mention aviation and that's an interesting correlate. The autopilots on the big jets today can and often do land the plane as well so the need for the pilot is negligible. You really could safely operate these aircraft with no pilot at all, but I think the public would balk at getting on a pilotless aircraft right now. There's also the simple fact that the pilot is one of the cheapest parts of operating a large aircraft. There are some interesting startups looking at using pilotless Very Light Jets for air-taxi services; if these gained traction and acceptance, then ultimately I could these spreading to commercial aviation at large. This actually sounds a lot like how midlevels have permeated the medical field!

I'm not going to tell a physician how the medical field is, but I will say that this part of your post makes it seem like you don't know very much about aviation. I actually agreed with your pilot analogy, but saying that you can fly commercial flights with no pilot is ridiculous.
 
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Not an issue at all in oncology in my experience. Midlevels are actually pretty helpful - they see routine follow ups, the kind of f/u where you basically just check labs, make sure the patient looks ok, and continue on with therapy unchanged. Takes some pressure off of the MDs and allows the group to treat a lot more patients.

I actually used to get annoyed at the NPs I worked with in the other direction. They'd walk around spewing the typical NP propaganda about how it's the same job and they would get their "doctor of nursing" things, BUT the instant a patient needed a change of treatment course, had a bad scan result, or had to be given any bad news, they we're nowhere to be found and it all fell on the MD.
 
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Not an issue at all in oncology in my experience. Midlevels are actually pretty helpful - they see routine follow ups, the kind of f/u where you basically just check labs, make sure the patient looks ok, and continue on with therapy unchanged. Takes some pressure off of the MDs and allows the group to treat a lot more patients.

I actually used to get annoyed at the NPs I worked with in the other direction. They'd walk around spewing the typical NP propaganda about how it's the same job and they would get their "doctor of nursing" things, BUT the instant a patient needed a change of treatment course, had a bad scan result, or had to be given any bad news, they we're nowhere to be found and it all fell on the MD.
Your post clearly illustrates why it will be hard for physicians to stop the NP movement...

You were not ok with them as a [insert specialty here] doc when they were spewing the BS that they are equal and deserve equal pay blah blah blah... Now since they don't have the same attitude in oncology and they help your group make $$$$, you are ok with them.

It's not an attack on you personally... Your post illustrates how fractured the medical profession is.
 
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Your post clearly illustrates why it will be hard for physicians to stop the NP movement...

You were not ok with them as a [insert specialty here] doc when they were spewing the BS that they are equal and deserve equal pay blah blah blah... Now since they don't have the same attitude in oncology and they help your group make $$$$, you are ok with them.

It's not an attack on you personally... Your post illustrates how fractured the medical profession is.

So....when people behave differently, they are viewed differently based on that behavior? That seems...quite reasonable?

We should be looking at health and healthcare, not conducting a witch hunt against NPs/PAs.
 
Overutilize specialists, and underutilize generalists. Using a generalist as a referologist is the mistake here. It's the family doc/im who was trained to handle uncomplicated specialized pathology. But the NPs/PAs make the argument that they should be "practicing to the top of their license."

Get the primary care docs to treat a lot of the stuff they refer out and suddenly you get a positive change in the system.

Excellent point. I wonder if IM and FM residencies are training their grads to do more of the things they refer out. My rural family medicine preceptors in medical school routinely performed colonoscopies, EGDs, c-sections, and I'm sure a number of additional diagnostic and therapeutic procedures. They prided themselves on just how much they could manage on their own.
I'm not going to tell a physician how the medical field is, but I will say that this part of your post makes it seem like you don't know very much about aviation. I actually agreed with your pilot analogy, but saying that you can fly commercial flights with no pilot is ridiculous.

True, with current tech, and I’m just a little VFR guy so I’ve never had the luxury of flying with high end avionics anyhow (I was pretty thrilled to get the “direct to” button!). But even with current tech the autopilot can safely land the aircraft in most instances assuming the airport has an adequate ILS and/or gps approach and the autopilot is advanced enough. My friends who are retired commercial captains say the autopilots could land the aircraft even 15-20 years ago. They are rougher landings than hand flown ones typically but passable. There are definitely companies looking into pilotless air taxi style services and presumably automation would be more easily adaptable to aviation than to self driving cars.

Clearly we’re a ways off from automated commercial flights. As I rethink it, cargo flights will probably be the first to go pilotless and passenger aircraft only after a demonstrated safety record. Aviation has the flip side argument that the pilot cost is such a minuscule part of the hourly cost for a large aircraft it’s almost laughable, but it’s also one of the few costs an airline can control and I can’t imagine it won’t ultimately come under scrutiny
 
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The consumer doesn't pay a thing. Medical billing is obfuscated by medical codes and third party payers. That's a nonsensical argument.

And I still sit in plenty of waiting rooms although I have definitely talked to the "I'm personal friends with the head of gastroenterology blah blah blah" self important douchebags.

Yeah those patients are always annoying, especially when they name drop someone ive never heard of but should. I was referring more to the ubiquitous text to a buddy to call me in a script for something when I’m sick. There’s pretty much no chance I would see another doc formally for an acute issue unless I was really sick or figured I’d ultimately need a controlled substance script that couldn’t be called in.

The consumer payment was addresssd in another post, but I’ll second it that patients are absolutely paying more and more for their care out of pocket. High deductible plans are more and more common. I looked on the exchange in my area and the lowest deductible I saw was $1200 for an individual; others were $7500 or more. Cost and convenience are going to be increasingly important drivers of care, hence why many patients hit up the minute clinic rather than blow a couple hours miserably sitting in our waiting room to get the same script.
 
I’ve read some things about nurses performing diagnostic caths at Duke and endoscopies at Johns Hopkins and was wondering what the status is in these areas?

Medicine involves the actual diagnosis and planning, whereas nursing traditionally involves the implementation of diagnosis and treatment plans. As I have seen in clinic, many nurses and PAs want to be doing the 'performing' part of medicine going forward as long as there is a standardized way to perform a task, while leaving the interpretation and decision making up to physicians. Physicians always have the option to order any procedure and then perform that procedure within the scope of their license. However procedures are time consuming, and insurance payout is the driving force to decide where physicians spend their time.

If this is true, then I would expect that the time consuming 'technical' and 'performing' aspects of medicine will gradually become less lucrative for physicians as long as complex decision making is not required during those procedures, such as in the more risky surgeries. However, the sheer amount of 'helping hands' in the OR for any given procedure is foretelling.

That is just my opinion and where I see medicine moving in the next couple of decades. On the other hand, I don't see a future where physicians make less money performing their jobs (or owning their practices) than the midlevels. The training and rigor of medical education is decidedly against that future. The question is "what" will physicians be doing in fifty years?
 
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Perhaps the better question is this:
The other angle is that the public doesn’t even want us to do these jobs anyhow. Does anyone with an acute illness really want to sit in our waiting room while they feel like crap and then pay a large copay to come tell us thee symptoms to maybe get prescribed a med that’s over the counter in the rest of the developed world? Is it any wonder people are all too happy to pop into a minute clinic and see an NP? And before we get too self righteous, is there a doc on this board who gets an acute illness and actually goes to see another MD and sits in their waiting room? Or do we text our buddy and ask them to call us in the thing we think we need?
Very true, when I have an ear infection, rather than wait for an appointment with a primary care physician, I'm going to the latest urgent care - and I'm not throwing away my prescription for antibiotics and leaving in a rage if it's given by an NP.

I think a lot of pre-meds and med students - and even physicians - like the idea of being the well-respected, well paid local community doctor, helping patients with low-stress, low-acuity problems and referring them to specialists when necessary. But that's exactly the kind of physician who will have to compete with autonomous NPs in the future - and to some extent now.
 
Very true, when I have an ear infection, rather than wait for an appointment with a primary care physician, I'm going to the latest urgent care - and I'm not throwing away my prescription for antibiotics and leaving in a rage if it's given by an NP.

I think a lot of pre-meds and med students - and even physicians - like the idea of being the well-respected, well paid local community doctor, helping patients with low-stress, low-acuity problems and referring them to specialists when necessary. But that's exactly the kind of physician who will have to compete with autonomous NPs in the future - and to some extent now.

But you shouldn't be getting antibiotics for a typical ear infection anyway. It's something providers just do to make their patients happy (everyone gets a door prize!) and make them look better to their patients when in reality it's bad medicine. Which is part of the huge problem with healthcare. The definition of "Best" care changes depending on who you talk to, which is a huge problem with our system. It's also why I don't buy the argument about patients choosing MDs who stick to proven treatments (or tell their patients they don't need anything) over NPs who hand out Z-paks and steroids like candy in the outpatient settings.
 
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So....when people behave differently, they are viewed differently based on that behavior? That seems...quite reasonable?

We should be looking at health and healthcare, not conducting a witch hunt against NPs/PAs.
Go to the gas forum and read how they are behaving to your anesthesiologist colleagues. Some of them were probably your classmates/friends in med school.

Do you really think they will stop once they take over primary care and gas?
 
But you shouldn't be getting antibiotics for a typical ear infection anyway. It's something providers just do to make their patients happy (everyone gets a door prize!) and make them look better to their patients when in reality it's bad medicine.

Beat me to it.
 
Go to the gas forum and read how they are behaving to your anesthesiologist colleagues. Some of them were probably your classmates/friends in med school.

Do you really think they will stop once they take over primary care and gas?

I get annoyed when NPs try to exceed their scope of practice or when they have holier-than-though attitudes.

I do not get annoyed when NPs practice within their scope and are team players.

I should clarify that I am a student btw (though I had full time clinical employment for >5 years pre-med school).
 
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I get annoyed when NPs try to exceed their scope of practice or when they have holier-than-though attitudes.

I do not get annoyed when NPs practice within their scope and are team players.
But what if they're practicing primary care autonomously in a State that allows it. That's technically within their scope of practice.
 
Your post clearly illustrates why it will be hard for physicians to stop the NP movement...

You were not ok with them as a [insert specialty here] doc when they were spewing the BS that they are equal and deserve equal pay blah blah blah... Now since they don't have the same attitude in oncology and they help your group make $$$$, you are ok with them.

It's not an attack on you personally... Your post illustrates how fractured the medical profession is.
Very well said. The lack of unity is killing us. Though I've heard some attendings this past year say they've evolved to preach this exact same thing (unity) among all fields and all levels (student to resident to fellow to attending).
Excellent point. I wonder if IM and FM residencies are training their grads to do more of the things they refer out. My rural family medicine preceptors in medical school routinely performed colonoscopies, EGDs, c-sections, and I'm sure a number of additional diagnostic and therapeutic procedures. They prided themselves on just how much they could manage on their own.

Yeah the irony is basic stuff is referred out all the time... to a clinic where a couple midlevels will do a bulk of the management.
Generalists should take on a wider scope of practice rather than downgrading themselves to practicing basic walk in clinic that is replaceable by midlevels.
Go to the gas forum and read how they are behaving to your anesthesiologist colleagues. Some of them were probably your classmates/friends in med school.

Do you really think they will stop once they take over primary care and gas?
Could you elaborate and explain? I'm unaware.
 
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