Middle East (Gulf) jobs.

[Angry Birds]

Anyone have any experience here? Thanks!

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[HemeOncHopeful19]

Why not the South East (Gulf) instead?

Our ladies have less teeth but they let you drink moonshine

(Sorry couldn’t help it)

 

[Saddleshoes]

Does Operation Desert Storm count?.

 

[Dral]

Can't tell you too much about details, but a good med school friend and her husband were both EM around NYC, then moved to Florida for a few years. They just ditched it last year and moved to Dubai.

 

[Angry Birds]

Can't tell you too much about details, but a good med school friend and her husband were both EM around NYC, then moved to Florida for a few years. They just ditched it last year and moved to Dubai.

I'm basically trying to find out if the lifestyle and pay are similar to the US or not...

 

[HemorrhagicShock]

As a US citizen, you'll still have to pay US taxes. That's what's ultimately convinced me to not look into middle east opportunities such as these. However I would be interested in the collective experience. I imagine in Dubai you'd be put to death if you screw up a Sheikh's ingrown toenail!

 

[bravotwozero]

As a US citizen, you'll still have to pay US taxes. That's what's ultimately convinced me to not look into middle east opportunities such as these. However I would be interested in the collective experience. I imagine in Dubai you'd be put to death if you screw up a Sheikh's ingrown toenail!

The first $106k is tax exempt if married filing jointly.

 

[Kryptocoin]

I would consider it for 600k with all living expenses paid plus sovereign immunity. No way in hell I'd like to test the legal system in the Middle East. Oh and I'd like half my pay in cryptocurrency. Thank you.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I'm basically trying to find out if the lifestyle and pay are similar to the US or not...

Slightly lower pay but almost all expenses paid. You're probably looking at USD 200-250K. Tax free essentially except the taxes you pay in the US. Usually the contract will include free housing and transportation.

I know a couple of docs who have worked there but personally i haven't. If i ever go to the middle East i would only consider dubai, abu dhabi, qatar, and kuwait - in that order of preference.

 

[Angry Birds]

I would consider it for 600k with all living expenses paid plus sovereign immunity. No way in hell I'd like to test the legal system in the Middle East. Oh and I'd like half my pay in cryptocurrency. Thank you.

This is a stereotypical and sweeping view of the entire Middle East, especially of the locations that American expats tend to flock to (and others). Not all of them are Saudi Arabia (which, of course, we have long been supplying military aid to).

If anything, we can speak of the partiality of the justice system there (i.e. in favor of the vaunted blue passport).

 

[Siggy]

I would consider it for 600k with all living expenses paid plus sovereign immunity. No way in hell I'd like to test the legal system in the Middle East. Oh and I'd like half my pay in cryptocurrency. Thank you.

Let's assume your contract includes sovereign immunity because you don't trust their legal system. Why would you trust that their legal system would uphold the immunity clause of the contract? You're going to appeal the system you don't trust to... the system you don't trust?

 

[Kryptocoin]

Let's assume your contract includes sovereign immunity because you don't trust their legal system. Why would you trust that their legal system would uphold the immunity clause of the contract? You're going to appeal the system you don't trust to... the system you don't trust?

That's the risk I'm willing to take. I look at it the same as a high risk patient signing out AMA. AMA doesn't 100% protect you from lawsuit, but I rather have that than nothing.

 

[Apollyon]

I think I recall a story about a heme/onc in Oman, maybe, whose pt died, and he was criminally charged. This was in the last 10 years.

 

[gro2001]

I worked in a Gulf country for a few years.

As others have said, the actual salary is going to be nominally lower (closer to $180k-220k), but because the first 100k or so is tax exempt as foreign income (and there is no direct income tax there), its effectively a bit more. Gone are the days of ridiculous paychecks.

The benefits are often extremely generous though. Like for an attending physician you'd often get luxury housing, a car, flights home, private school for kids, sometimes university partially or fully paid, and often an extremely generous CME budget and time off (I had around $20k/year in CME, which I would use to go to several conferences, including flying back to the US a couple of times a year around ACEP and SAEM time).

The biggest benefit however is that the workload is way less than what is expected in the US. They stratify attendings into junior ones (called specialists) and senior ones (called consultants). You would come in as a consultant and that's pretty cushy. You'd often not even have to write notes.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

This is a stereotypical and sweeping view of the entire Middle East, especially of the locations that American expats tend to flock to (and others). Not all of them are Saudi Arabia (which, of course, we have long been supplying military aid to).

If anything, we can speak of the partiality of the justice system there (i.e. in favor of the vaunted blue passport).

You haven’t really specified a country.

However if you’re gay or a woman it seems like a justifiable position in many of the countries there. If you’re a straight guy it’s probably less of an issue.

 

[Angry Birds]

You haven’t really specified a country.

However if you’re gay or a woman it seems like a justifiable position in many of the countries there. If you’re a straight guy it’s probably less of an issue.

You’re exactly right that I haven’t specified a country, given that I’m open to various places there, which is why I said it was a sweeping statement. Many counties in the region are not going to harass Western expats, women or gays, and rather tend to look away. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues with regard to human rights, just that it’s not as simple as being portrayed in the initial post I was critical of.

 

[cyanide12345678]

You’re exactly right that I haven’t specified a country, given that I’m open to various places there, which is why I said it was a sweeping statement. Many counties in the region are not going to harass Western expats, women or gays, and rather tend to look away. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues with regard to human rights, just that it’s not as simple as being portrayed in the initial post I was critical of.

Many places are actually going to worship Western expats and treat them like Superior human beings lol.

You should see the attention a Caucasian person would get in pakistan lol.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I worked in a Gulf country for a few years.

As others have said, the actual salary is going to be nominally lower (closer to $180k-220k), but because the first 100k or so is tax exempt as foreign income (and there is no direct income tax there), its effectively a bit more. Gone are the days of ridiculous paychecks.

The benefits are often extremely generous though. Like for an attending physician you'd often get luxury housing, a car, flights home, private school for kids, sometimes university partially or fully paid, and often an extremely generous CME budget and time off (I had around $20k/year in CME, which I would use to go to several conferences, including flying back to the US a couple of times a year around ACEP and SAEM time).

The biggest benefit however is that the workload is way less than what is expected in the US. They stratify attendings into junior ones (called specialists) and senior ones (called consultants). You would come in as a consultant and that's pretty cushy. You'd often not even have to write notes.

Which company did you do it through and which country were you in?

Sometimes i think of dubai as my plan B when i want to retire.

 

[Angry Birds]

Many places are actually going to worship Western expats and treat them like Superior human beings lol.

You should see the attention a Caucasian person would get in pakistan lol.

This is exactly right.

 

[gro2001]

Which company did you do it through and which country were you in?

Sometimes i think of dubai as my plan B when i want to retire.

I took an academic job in Qatar, no intermediary company, recruited by the college.

Dubai can be very nice if you don't mind the heat and everything/one being a little fake in a Vegas kind of way.

 

[Angry Birds]

I took an academic job in Qatar, no intermediary company, recruited by the college.

Dubai can be very nice if you don't mind the heat and everything/one being a little fake in a Vegas kind of way.

Thanks for this. How long did you end up staying for?
Also, can you give details of your academic gig? How much was clinical vs teaching? Was the pay good?

 

[gro2001]

Thanks for this. How long did you end up staying for?
Also, can you give details of your academic gig? How much was clinical vs teaching? Was the pay good?

PM'ed you

 

[deleted813736]

Did some work in Dubai last year for 2 months w a locums company based out of Germany. Pay was about 200 an hour USD converted. They covered living and travel. They used an EMR called Kareo that was pretty easy to get used to. Specialists were fairly unhelpful unless the situation was truly emergent. Nursing staff had great respect for you and even did the FOBT cards/ collected pelvic swabs for you. But yes ended up paying taxes on the income to the US. Didn't feel like it was worth it long term unless you had family/some connection to dubai. or else American ERs are essentially the same w better pay + completing your own DREs, a sacrifice im willing to make.

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

You’re exactly right that I haven’t specified a country, given that I’m open to various places there, which is why I said it was a sweeping statement. Many counties in the region are not going to harass Western expats, women or gays, and rather tend to look away. This doesn’t mean that there aren’t issues with regard to human rights, just that it’s not as simple as being portrayed in the initial post I was critical of.

Which countries have reasonable legal systems?


You often hear that western expats are treated "better", but every so often you hear about stuff like this happening: Mexican woman faces 100 lashes and prison time after she was sexually assaulted in Qatar

 

[Angry Birds]

Which countries have reasonable legal systems?


You often hear that western expats are treated "better", but every so often you hear about stuff like this happening: Mexican woman faces 100 lashes and prison time after she was sexually assaulted in Qatar

Qatar is an example of a country where, for the most part, Euro-American ex-pats are going to be treated very well and have little to worry about. This does not mean that the legal system is perfect or that I don't actually have grave concerns about various aspects of the legal-judicial system therein. (The way migrant workers from South Asia are treated, for example, is deplorable.)

My initial protestation was directed against a sweeping and sensationalist statement about "sovereign immunity" and a blanket proclamation about "the Middle East," which by its very nature reeks of ignorance much like statements about how deplorable "Africa" is--a wide expanse of land with many different countries and contexts.

Neither would an isolated case disprove my point, although it should also be pointed out that these Western media outlets are exaggerating as well. From what I know, lashing is rarely meted out, with the death penalty being virtually suspended (with only one case in the last two decades), quite unlike the United States one should add. More to the point, lashing as a traditional religious punishment would be limited to Muslims, excluding the woman in this story. This is to say nothing of the fact that the government at the highest levels is often the one who want to allow such accused persons to "flee" the country. None of this is to say that exceptions do not occur, and these are indeed concerning.

Finally, we can look to similar cases in the United States:


And there is no shortage of such examples. One can see how many people were disappeared, sent to dark sites, tortured, held without charge for decade plus, etc. And this is to say nothing of the fact that the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world, with a disproportionate number of black and brown people behind bars.

To be clear, I consider Qatar to be ruled by an autocracy (allied to and supported by the US), which does indeed use its dictatorial powers to suppress dissent and free speech. But, this is not applicable, as I said, to the Euro-American ex-pat who comes to work in the country... Such a person is treated very well, even in a privileged way. There is a difference, as I said, between a targeted and well-informed concern and between a sweeping and sensationalist stereotypical statement. I hope you can understand this instead of going back and forth, which I don't think I am going to do further.

 

[Kryptocoin]

Qatar is an example of a country where, for the most part, Euro-American ex-pats are going to be treated very well and have little to worry about. This does not mean that the legal system is perfect or that I don't actually have grave concerns about various aspects of the legal-judicial system therein. (The way migrant workers from South Asia are treated, for example, is deplorable.)

My initial protestation was directed against a sweeping and sensationalist statement about "sovereign immunity" and a blanket proclamation about "the Middle East," which by its very nature reeks of ignorance much like statements about how deplorable "Africa" is--a wide expanse of land with many different countries and contexts.

Listen dude, get over yourself. If you solicit opinions from a public forum then you're gonna get it. I gave my opinion of what it would take for me to work there. You don't like? Go cry in a corner somewhere. The fricking title of your post is "Middle East Jobs" and you're calling out generalizations? GTFOH.

 

[DeadCactus]

Listen dude, get over yourself. If you solicit opinions from a public forum then you're gonna get it. I gave my opinion of what it would take for me to work there. You don't like? Go cry in a corner somewhere. The fricking title of your post is "Middle East Jobs" and you're calling out generalizations? GTFOH.

You're throwing a tantrum because some stranger on the internet didn't protect your fragile ego from criticism. It seems like the crying corner is full.

 

[Kryptocoin]

You're throwing a tantrum because some stranger on the internet didn't protect your fragile ego from criticism. It seems like the crying corner is full.

Thank you for your concern though about my ego. I'll send you a cookie.

 

[Mad Jack]

As a US citizen, you'll still have to pay US taxes. That's what's ultimately convinced me to not look into middle east opportunities such as these. However I would be interested in the collective experience. I imagine in Dubai you'd be put to death if you screw up a Sheikh's ingrown toenail!

Between the standard deduction and the foreign income exclusion around 124k of income is tax-free. Throw in the free housing and transportation and it's a pretty good deal, and the money you do earn is in a lower bracket by your exclusion amount and not subject to state and local taxes.

 

[Angry Birds]

Listen dude, get over yourself. If you solicit opinions from a public forum then you're gonna get it. I gave my opinion of what it would take for me to work there. You don't like? Go cry in a corner somewhere. The fricking title of your post is "Middle East Jobs" and you're calling out generalizations? GTFOH.

Well, this is because I’m considering various places in the Middle East, not just the Gulf. But nowhere did I pass a generalizing statement about the entire region. Rather, I’m trying to elicit opinions about the various regions that people may have worked in.

 

[Old_Mil]

Anyone have any experience here? Thanks!

PM me if you're interested. I haven't worked there, but have colleagues that have done so outside of medicine. It's a very different work culture than you're used to in the western world.