Midestern Arizona dental school Vs UCSF dental school

[newmanchster]

Hey Everyone,

I am debating between UCSF and Midwestern.

UCSF has the name recognition that is useful for apply for specialization and for jobs in academia. San Francisco city is super beautiful and offers so much to do. dental program is okay. it is not the strongest clinically. their students get to do 4 root canals and no implants at all. also no major cases as their specialty programs takes these up for them. tuition is okay but SF has super high cost of living. the total cost of living averages somewhere between 85K-90K per year. I have a chance of getting need based assistant from the university to assist with costs.

Midwestern arizona is in Glendale. Glendale is a nice area but no where near SF. it is super hot during summer. the University is new with not much activities to offer. I felt that Midwestern has strong dental program as they do not have specialty programs so you get to do all the cases you get with help of specialty faculty there. they are focused on the clinical aspect of dentistry and making of good general dentists. tuition is about 90K and cost of living about 12K (with room mate) and so average cost of attendance is about 100K.

I do not plan on specializing. I like teaching so there is a chance that I might apply to become a faculty in a school but that is not certain. my priority is being as good clinically as I can by the time I graduate. Most dental students I met from interviews so far told me that the clinical experience is strong if you put in the work and seek out opportunities with all your heart "you get what you put in it". I know many here hold UCSF with high regard. however, I am not bring this from thin air. I asked the faculty about the strength of clinical experience and she said "we can do better". I liked UCSF but the main concern for me is the clinical experience.

There is no other thread comparing Midwestern to UCSF. I would like your opinion on this.

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[DOC YANKEM]

Like most other posters would say, go to the cheapest school. You said you don't plan on specializing, then any dental school will prepare you to become a general dentist. You want to teach in dental school? Join ADEA.

Sure, some dental schools will say they are focused and strong clinically. The reality is majority of graduates are not fast enough clinically to complete any procedure.

 

[endorotary]

Hey Everyone,

I am debating between UCSF and Midwestern.

UCSF has the name recognition that is useful for apply for specialization and for jobs in academia. San Francisco city is super beautiful and offers so much to do. dental program is okay. it is not the strongest clinically. their students get to do 4 root canals and no implants at all. also no major cases as their specialty programs takes these up for them. tuition is okay but SF has super high cost of living. the total cost of living averages somewhere between 85K-90K per year. I have a chance of getting need based assistant from the university to assist with costs.

Midwestern arizona is in Glendale. Glendale is a nice area but no where near SF. it is super hot during summer. the University is new with not much activities to offer. I felt that Midwestern has strong dental program as they do not have specialty programs so you get to do all the cases you get with help of specialty faculty there. they are focused on the clinical aspect of dentistry and making of good general dentists. tuition is about 90K and cost of living about 12K (with room mate) and so average cost of attendance is about 100K.

I do not plan on specializing. I like teaching so there is a chance that I might apply to become a faculty in a school but that is not certain. my priority is being as good clinically as I can by the time I graduate. Most dental students I met from interviews so far told me that the clinical experience is strong if you put in the work and seek out opportunities with all your heart "you get what you put in it". I know many here hold UCSF with high regard. however, I am not bring this from thin air. I asked the faculty about the strength of clinical experience and she said "we can do better". I liked UCSF but the main concern for me is the clinical experience.

There is no other thread comparing Midwestern to UCSF. I would like your opinion on this.

What is the tuition difference between Midwestern and UCSF? One thing to consider if you choose to go to UCSF and don't plan to specialize is that alot of grads end up doing an additional year of training either GPR/AEGD because they feel they are lacking the clinical experience needed. I graduated from UCSF a few years back and from what I've heard from recent grads, it seems like the clinical experience has gotten worse. For example, even though the official requirement is 4 root canals, many students don't even end up being able to complete 4 endos on real patients due to the lack of patients or cases being referred to PG endo. So it's not surprising that this past year for the WREBs I had heard that 18 students had failed the endo portion and ended up having to retake it in SoCal. I know this has kind of given a black eye for UCSF since I haven't heard of that many students failing before during the WREBS.
Since I didn't go to Midwestern, I'm not sure if they have the same issue as well, but not having the specialty programs will definitely help give more clinical experience to the predocs.
Regarding your desire to teach, honestly I would say it doesn't matter where you go for dental school. All dental schools are usually short on faculty, so they are always looking for people to help teach.

 

[newmanchster]

What is the tuition difference between Midwestern and UCSF? One thing to consider if you choose to go to UCSF and don't plan to specialize is that alot of grads end up doing an additional year of training either GPR/AEGD because they feel they are lacking the clinical experience needed. I graduated from UCSF a few years back and from what I've heard from recent grads, it seems like the clinical experience has gotten worse. For example, even though the official requirement is 4 root canals, many students don't even end up being able to complete 4 endos on real patients due to the lack of patients or cases being referred to PG endo. So it's not surprising that this past year for the WREBs I had heard that 18 students had failed the endo portion and ended up having to retake it in SoCal. I know this has kind of given a black eye for UCSF since I haven't heard of that many students failing before during the WREBS.
Since I didn't go to Midwestern, I'm not sure if they have the same issue as well, but not having the specialty programs will definitely help give more clinical experience to the predocs.
Regarding your desire to teach, honestly I would say it doesn't matter where you go for dental school. All dental schools are usually short on faculty, so they are always looking for people to help teach.

thank you for your input. I am really worried about this. during the interview, I could not find any 4th year dental student to talk too. we were surrounded by 2nd year students that could not comment on the clinical part. I only found one 3rd year student but he just got started too and not much of a help. the patient pool did not seam strong either as student would trickle patients to each other instead of the school taking care of this matter of providing patient. but that was just my feeling. what was your experience. also, how did you feel after you graduated and started working. did you feel underexperienced. how was your transition?

 

[endorotary]

thank you for your input. I am really worried about this. during the interview, I could not find any 4th year dental student to talk too. we were surrounded by 2nd year students that could not comment on the clinical part. I only found one 3rd year student but he just got started too and not much of a help. the patient pool did not seam strong either as student would trickle patients to each other instead of the school taking care of this matter of providing patient. but that was just my feeling. what was your experience. also, how did you feel after you graduated and started working. did you feel underexperienced. how was your transition?

I definitely wished my clinical experience was better, but I ended up completing a GPR in order to gain more experience which I am glad I did since it helped me gain speed and confidence before startign to work. I know that UCSF has now started night clinics to help increase the patient flow for students, but not sure how much that has helped. At least the UCSF faculty member you talked to was honest enough to admit that the clinical experience could be better.

 

[cloth_alert00]

I would choose UCSF. A number of schools now claim they have great "clinical exposure" and facilities and things like that, however, it is really just marketing tactics to justify the high tuition. Go to a school with a good reputation, and one that is grounded in academia, they usually have the best faculty.

 

[y123]

UCSF

 

[Bernie Sanders]

i second this. my school acted like it had good clinical experience, but we are like USCF in terms of dismal experience. Go to the school with the better name

 

[newmanchster]

i second this. my school acted like it had good clinical experience, but we are like USCF in terms of dismal experience. Go to the school with the better name

Can I know what is your school.

 

[samknex]

I can hopefully offer an alternative view on things, but I will say right up front my school is Midwestern Arizona, and I totally agree that it is extremely expensive. If cost really is what you are concerned about, go to UCSF. You will sleep better at night and go to an AEGD and turn out just fine. One of the reasons I chose Midwestern was the clinical experience. I 1000% agree with the other people that pretty much every school (and especially the new ones) advertise a great clinical experience. All of the schools I interviewed at did, and from reading forums few of them were actually telling the truth. I couldn't find an awful lot of information about Midwestern though, maybe I didn't look hard enough. I was pretty blown away by the interview, so that was a pretty strong pull. In the end I decided to accept the debt and go on the promise that I really would get good clinical experience. Always the skeptic though, I have continued to poll the D3 and D4 students that I meet to see if they really received all of the practice that they were promised. I have not had one student say no. In fact, they usually are pretty emphatic about the fact that they get more than they were promised. For example, I went to assist in the clinic last week with a D3 and he had a sheet up that showed all of the procedures he had checked off. Pretty much every type of procedure (restorative, crowns, etc.) had at least 4 or more checks in it. Admittedly he hadn't performed a root canal, and I did ask him about it. That was when he told me that all of the marks were only from the last 8 weeks or so. That kind of blew me away. Also, Midwestern is the only school I know of that allows dental students to place implants. I asked at most of the schools I went to, and they all gave me weird looks.

I don't want to be too preachy about Midwestern, but I do love it here. When I was accepted, I did not have a scholarship. I have done my entire first year without one. I worked to get an Air Force scholarship and it finally worked out, but I went in with the mentality that I would repay my loans. I slept fine at night for the first quarter and a half because I accepted that. This brings me back to my first point. If you can't bring yourself the accept that level of debt, don't do it. It is huge. I have a friend that denied Midwestern and accepted in Colorado for the exact same reason. If you can accept it, great. I can't wait to meet you in August. Midwestern is a great school, and I'm sure UCSF is too. Any questions about what I said? I'm an open book.

Oh, a few more thoughts. I agree, there is definitely more to do in SF, the weather is nicer there, and the school is newer. On the other hand, phoenix is a pretty large metro area so you can find things to do, the weather is awesome for 8 months and you just use AC the other 4, a lot like people living in snow except opposite. I like the heat better personally, but you just can't beat California so it really is a no contest thing.

Last thing. This is a picture of the average procedures performed by the class of 2017 at midwestern: https://photos.app.goo.gl/sNkqV86f2qO5LKio2

 

[samknex]

Good experience, I just have huge issues with cost. I’d still go to the cheaper schools, but I’ll be honest when I interviewed at UCSF for dental school and peds I was not impressed. The clinics were empty, and the place felt like something from the movie strange brew. If 18 people failed WREB (the easier of the exams), that’s also a HUGE red flag.

MWU will def be better clinically, but that cost will cripple you for a long time. Should have applied to some east coast schools that do similar amounts of procedures, with less tuition attached! Oh and MWU isn’t the only school that allows implant placement


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

That makes me really happy to hear that other schools allow implants. I guess I should have interviewed at some different schools when I asked my interviewer about it at OHSU, she got all mad and said that dental students placing implants is ridiculous. Which schools have you heard of that allow implant placement?

 

[newmanchster]

I can hopefully offer an alternative view on things, but I will say right up front my school is Midwestern Arizona, and I totally agree that it is extremely expensive. If cost really is what you are concerned about, go to UCSF. You will sleep better at night and go to an AEGD and turn out just fine. One of the reasons I chose Midwestern was the clinical experience. I 1000% agree with the other people that pretty much every school (and especially the new ones) advertise a great clinical experience. All of the schools I interviewed at did, and from reading forums few of them were actually telling the truth. I couldn't find an awful lot of information about Midwestern though, maybe I didn't look hard enough. I was pretty blown away by the interview, so that was a pretty strong pull. In the end I decided to accept the debt and go on the promise that I really would get good clinical experience. Always the skeptic though, I have continued to poll the D3 and D4 students that I meet to see if they really received all of the practice that they were promised. I have not had one student say no. In fact, they usually are pretty emphatic about the fact that they get more than they were promised. For example, I went to assist in the clinic last week with a D3 and he had a sheet up that showed all of the procedures he had checked off. Pretty much every type of procedure (restorative, crowns, etc.) had at least 4 or more checks in it. Admittedly he hadn't performed a root canal, and I did ask him about it. That was when he told me that all of the marks were only from the last 8 weeks or so. That kind of blew me away. Also, Midwestern is the only school I know of that allows dental students to place implants. I asked at most of the schools I went to, and they all gave me weird looks.

I don't want to be too preachy about Midwestern, but I do love it here. When I was accepted, I did not have a scholarship. I have done my entire first year without one. I worked to get an Air Force scholarship and it finally worked out, but I went in with the mentality that I would repay my loans. I slept fine at night for the first quarter and a half because I accepted that. This brings me back to my first point. If you can't bring yourself the accept that level of debt, don't do it. It is huge. I have a friend that denied Midwestern and accepted in Colorado for the exact same reason. If you can accept it, great. I can't wait to meet you in August. Midwestern is a great school, and I'm sure UCSF is too. Any questions about what I said? I'm an open book.

Oh, a few more thoughts. I agree, there is definitely more to do in SF, the weather is nicer there, and the school is newer. On the other hand, phoenix is a pretty large metro area so you can find things to do, the weather is awesome for 8 months and you just use AC the other 4, a lot like people living in snow except opposite. I like the heat better personally, but you just can't beat California so it really is a no contest thing.

Last thing. This is a picture of the average procedures performed by the class of 2017 at midwestern: https://photos.app.goo.gl/sNkqV86f2qO5LKio2

I can hopefully offer an alternative view on things, but I will say right up front my school is Midwestern Arizona, and I totally agree that it is extremely expensive. If cost really is what you are concerned about, go to UCSF. You will sleep better at night and go to an AEGD and turn out just fine. One of the reasons I chose Midwestern was the clinical experience. I 1000% agree with the other people that pretty much every school (and especially the new ones) advertise a great clinical experience. All of the schools I interviewed at did, and from reading forums few of them were actually telling the truth. I couldn't find an awful lot of information about Midwestern though, maybe I didn't look hard enough. I was pretty blown away by the interview, so that was a pretty strong pull. In the end I decided to accept the debt and go on the promise that I really would get good clinical experience. Always the skeptic though, I have continued to poll the D3 and D4 students that I meet to see if they really received all of the practice that they were promised. I have not had one student say no. In fact, they usually are pretty emphatic about the fact that they get more than they were promised. For example, I went to assist in the clinic last week with a D3 and he had a sheet up that showed all of the procedures he had checked off. Pretty much every type of procedure (restorative, crowns, etc.) had at least 4 or more checks in it. Admittedly he hadn't performed a root canal, and I did ask him about it. That was when he told me that all of the marks were only from the last 8 weeks or so. That kind of blew me away. Also, Midwestern is the only school I know of that allows dental students to place implants. I asked at most of the schools I went to, and they all gave me weird looks.

I don't want to be too preachy about Midwestern, but I do love it here. When I was accepted, I did not have a scholarship. I have done my entire first year without one. I worked to get an Air Force scholarship and it finally worked out, but I went in with the mentality that I would repay my loans. I slept fine at night for the first quarter and a half because I accepted that. This brings me back to my first point. If you can't bring yourself the accept that level of debt, don't do it. It is huge. I have a friend that denied Midwestern and accepted in Colorado for the exact same reason. If you can accept it, great. I can't wait to meet you in August. Midwestern is a great school, and I'm sure UCSF is too. Any questions about what I said? I'm an open book.

Oh, a few more thoughts. I agree, there is definitely more to do in SF, the weather is nicer there, and the school is newer. On the other hand, phoenix is a pretty large metro area so you can find things to do, the weather is awesome for 8 months and you just use AC the other 4, a lot like people living in snow except opposite. I like the heat better personally, but you just can't beat California so it really is a no contest thing.

Last thing. This is a picture of the average procedures performed by the class of 2017 at midwestern: https://photos.app.goo.gl/sNkqV86f2qO5LKio2

thank you for your help. UCSF is cheaper around 40k than mwu since I cannot just assume that I will get the need based assistance. 40k in the long run does not feel such big difference to me. also, I am trying to leave cali due the over saturation, high state tax, and super expensive properties. making a living here is very difficult and I would like to be able to build myself after I graduate.
Is it possible to share the amount of money you borrowed for the first year. where are you living (on campus/out), are you living alone in one bedroom apt or multiple bedrooms with roommates. also if you can share the logistics of moving in to Arizona (when, and how). if you do not feel comfortable sharing on open form, is it possible to send me private message.

 

[newmanchster]

Good experience, I just have huge issues with cost. I’d still go to the cheaper schools, but I’ll be honest when I interviewed at UCSF for dental school and peds I was not impressed. The clinics were empty, and the place felt like something from the movie strange brew. If 18 people failed WREB (the easier of the exams), that’s also a HUGE red flag.

MWU will def be better clinically, but that cost will cripple you for a long time. Should have applied to some east coast schools that do similar amounts of procedures, with less tuition attached! Oh and MWU isn’t the only school that allows implant placement


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

do you thing 40-50k is a big difference considering the compound interest. I mean it is not little but not that significant to me in the long run. also, it is very difficult to find apartments in San Fran due to high congestion.

 

[samknex]

Great money questions. I love money questions I'm an accountant by degree, so I really enjoy talking about this. So, lemme hit your questions one by one:

How much I borrowed for my first year: With interest accrued, at the beginning of May I will owe just over 122,000 including interest. It is costing me about 20 dollars per day in interest. Kinda crazy, but hey. That is the price I am comfortable with and I will deal with it. Full disclosure, I took out the maximum. I didn't buy a new car but I did buy the one I am driving to be independent from my parents it cost me 2500 and its a 2000 corolla that has great mileage so I think it was a good call so I don't have a car payment. Given all of my expenses and even buying my car I came out with about 3000 extra at the end of the first quarter and it will be about the same for the second quarter, so 6000 in liquidity.

I'm living off campus with a bunch of other guys that go to Midwestern, so my rent is only 350 dollars per month. With utilities it is closer to 450, but it is still a steal for what I have. I have my own room in a 6 bedroom house with 7 guys total.

Logistics. So, this is really important to get on early. There is on campus housing that is decent and decently priced. My friend lives in it and is ok with it, but it is still apartment living so all of the plethora of problems that come with that are all present. You will find that almost anywhere though. If you want on campus housing, you need to prepare to fill out the Midwestern application on online.midwestern.edu to get considered. Honestly, they may already be booked out so I would call the school about that one. They can tell you more accurate information. When you move here it will likely be during the summer, so I would plan on arriving early in the morning. It makes moving stuff a ton better. Housing is pretty reasonable, a 1 bedroom is around 900 to 1000. It may be more with utilities, I don't know too much about it though. I would plan on getting here about 2 weeks before class to get settled in and ready. That is my opinion though, some people are ok with moving in the day before orientation and that is totally cool.

What else...oh. I would come out to look at apartments, it will give you a better feel for things. Also, if you look on Facebook for the general Midwestern university page you will find some postings for spaces open in houses or apartments. I really recommend getting into a house if you can, it really isn't too much more of a cost even if you just share it with one more person.

I want to say a bit more about debt. I think everyone has their own pros and cons that they need to balance when choosing a school. For me, the different debt levels became less important and it became more important to me to have a great education. Maybe I chose wrong with more debt, but I'm happy with where I'm at and I can sleep fine at night with 120,000 dollars over my head. I feel capable of repaying my debts with the skills the school is providing. Another thing I think about is that 350,000 and 450,000 are both big numbers, so it will take me a long time to repay either one. Take that as you will, I know that it is a rationalization but I am fine with it. It sounds like cost of living will be much higher in your area, so your debt there may be a bit bigger than you anticipate.

finally, your 40 to 50k question. It is a chunk of money. I've never made that much in my life. Is it unmanageable? Nope. You will have the skills to deal with it when you graduate from midwestern. My opinion is that it really doesn't matter.

Does all of this make sense? Let me hear your thoughts.

 

[Bernie Sanders]

Great money questions. I love money questions I'm an accountant by degree, so I really enjoy talking about this. So, lemme hit your questions one by one:

How much I borrowed for my first year: With interest accrued, at the beginning of May I will owe just over 122,000 including interest. It is costing me about 20 dollars per day in interest. Kinda crazy, but hey. That is the price I am comfortable with and I will deal with it. Full disclosure, I took out the maximum. I didn't buy a new car but I did buy the one I am driving to be independent from my parents it cost me 2500 and its a 2000 corolla that has great mileage so I think it was a good call so I don't have a car payment. Given all of my expenses and even buying my car I came out with about 3000 extra at the end of the first quarter and it will be about the same for the second quarter, so 6000 in liquidity.

I'm living off campus with a bunch of other guys that go to Midwestern, so my rent is only 350 dollars per month. With utilities it is closer to 450, but it is still a steal for what I have. I have my own room in a 6 bedroom house with 7 guys total.

Logistics. So, this is really important to get on early. There is on campus housing that is decent and decently priced. My friend lives in it and is ok with it, but it is still apartment living so all of the plethora of problems that come with that are all present. You will find that almost anywhere though. If you want on campus housing, you need to prepare to fill out the Midwestern application on online.midwestern.edu to get considered. Honestly, they may already be booked out so I would call the school about that one. They can tell you more accurate information. When you move here it will likely be during the summer, so I would plan on arriving early in the morning. It makes moving stuff a ton better. Housing is pretty reasonable, a 1 bedroom is around 900 to 1000. It may be more with utilities, I don't know too much about it though. I would plan on getting here about 2 weeks before class to get settled in and ready. That is my opinion though, some people are ok with moving in the day before orientation and that is totally cool.

What else...oh. I would come out to look at apartments, it will give you a better feel for things. Also, if you look on Facebook for the general Midwestern university page you will find some postings for spaces open in houses or apartments. I really recommend getting into a house if you can, it really isn't too much more of a cost even if you just share it with one more person.

I want to say a bit more about debt. I think everyone has their own pros and cons that they need to balance when choosing a school. For me, the different debt levels became less important and it became more important to me to have a great education. Maybe I chose wrong with more debt, but I'm happy with where I'm at and I can sleep fine at night with 120,000 dollars over my head. I feel capable of repaying my debts with the skills the school is providing. Another thing I think about is that 350,000 and 450,000 are both big numbers, so it will take me a long time to repay either one. Take that as you will, I know that it is a rationalization but I am fine with it. It sounds like cost of living will be much higher in your area, so your debt there may be a bit bigger than you anticipate.

finally, your 40 to 50k question. It is a chunk of money. I've never made that much in my life. Is it unmanageable? Nope. You will have the skills to deal with it when you graduate from midwestern. My opinion is that it really doesn't matter.

Does all of this make sense? Let me hear your thoughts.

What would you say is the average number of a crowns a D4 has done at MWU-AZ? Just curious lol. Our top producers (and like this includes only 4-5 people tops lol) in clinic have done like a max of 25-30. I'd say the average person in our class has done like 6 crowns.

 

[samknex]

What would you say is the average number of a crowns a D4 has done at MWU-AZ? Just curious lol. Our top producers (and like this includes only 4-5 people tops lol) in clinic have done like a max of 25-30. I'd say the average person in our class has done like 6 crowns.

The best info I have is in my first post in this thread, can you see the picture I linked to?

 

[Bernie Sanders]

The best info I have is in my first post in this thread, can you see the picture I linked to?

Oh, my bad. Ya lol i saw it. Wow my school is such a joke. Most D4s haven't even done 3 endos. And I'm not kidding when I say our top producer has done a max of 30 crowns. Most of us have only restored only 1 implant!

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Don’t lose sleep over dental school “production.” You’ll do more in the first few months after graduating than all of third and fourth year combined. The real learning will happen after graduation, trust me. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, wherever you go to dental school, you’ll graduate with just enough knowledge and experience to not be dangerous. Go to the cheapest school. This is the answer 11 out of 10 times.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I came out with about 3000 extra at the end of the first quarter and it will be about the same for the second quarter, so 6000 in liquidity

I think you mean $6,000 in unnecessary loans. This isn’t an asset, it’s a liability.

Big Hoss

 

[samknex]

I think you mean $6,000 in unnecessary loans. This isn’t an asset, it’s a liability.

Big Hoss

You're absolutely right, it is a liability. In accounting, assets = liabilities + owners equity, so oddly enough it is an asset that is also a liability. I have the cash that I can use to do something, so an asset. I have to repay the cash since it isn't mine and it is costing me money at a rate of 6-7%, so a liability. Either way, it is liquid. Double entry accounting is pretty awesome

I also agree with your statement that the amount of production you get out of school dwarfs any possible production in school. Every dentist that I have talked to emphatically stands behind that, including every Midwestern grad I have spoken to. Thanks for your feedback. I suppose the reason I appreciate the increase in experience is that I will be that much faster and that much more capable of meeting the demands of real world dentistry. That is the value I see in my school. Is it overpriced? Yes. Yes it is. Am I happy every day to wake up and be in dental school? Yup. The thought of being a dentist excites me every time I think about it. All of the schools I was accepted to were higher cost, so I chose Midwestern. I am loving it so far, but I'll have to report back in about 4 years to say whether the extra experience actually helps in Air Force dentistry or in 7 years for real world dentistry. Maybe I could even get some sort of estimated cost to benefit analysis. I haven't found anything that has been done to that level detail, so I think it would be pretty interesting. I'll keep ya posted.

I still recommend Midwestern, it has been a fantastic school for me so far.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

assets = liabilities + owners equity

So I’ve heard. But, loan money ≠ lotto money. Far too many predents seem to think it does, though. Here’s a brief lesson in Big Hoss accounting: paying back student loans = severe unpleasantness. You can learn more in my self-published ebook Rich Hoss, Poor Hoss. Available for download now!

Big Hoss

 

[setdoc7]

UCSF. I can assure you, after admitting PGY 1 GPR's from across the country for well over a decade into the program I direct, that no school, and I really mean NO SCHOOL adequately prepares it's D4's. Sure, you receive the minimum experience that CODA requires every school to provide, but in the end, Big Hoss is spot on...just enough to make you not dangerous. There will be a few stars in each class that do well above the minimum
amount of work to graduate, but even this is really not much. Save your money. UCSF still has a stellar reputation across the country, and will open lots of doors for you in the future.