Midwestern c/o 2019 vs. UPenn c/o 2020

[PennObie20]

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Hi all, I'm back for more decision-making advice. Now the choice is between Midwestern and Penn. Personally, I'm mostly small animal while also wanting to do some exotics/wildlife, and hoping to do some international work after graduation.
First, I know the issue of money, and I was actually surprised to see how close the two came in terms of total amounts, even if gaining residency in PA (which I would do): Midwestern-https://www.midwestern.edu/Documents/Financial%20Aid%20documents/COA%20Forms/2015-16%20AZ/Vet%20Med_AZ%201516%20final.pdf, and Penn-http://www.vet.upenn.edu/education/financial-matters/tuition-fees.
Next, the two seem comparable in terms of how much clinical experience is given and when (approx. one 'course' per quarter), as well as the availabilities of electives (Penn does have more, but only offered- for the most part- third year). Also they both have a small animal hospital right on campus.
For differences, Penn has the history and reputation, is a lot closer to home (upstate NY), and has a lot of research opportunities (not that important to me). Midwestern has/will have a large animal center right on campus, seems to have a better support system for its students, I would start this year, plus there's the sun. It's also brand new, which seems like not a good thing. (Question: does anyone know if Midwestern posts its lectures online, and is there tutoring available?)
Midwestern wants a decision by tomorrow, though I may beg to have the weekend. I got a very good feeling about both schools when I was interviewing and I'm really torn. What would you do if you were in my place?

Edit: Another question, the students at Penn seemed really down to earth when I visited, and I was wondering how the atmosphere at Midwestern might compare. I know there's a dress code, overall is it more rigid/conservative? Thanks!

 

[rushy]

I know a lot of Penn Vets, they are awesome and if it were closer to home for me then I'd choose Penn. Midwestern is closer to home (California) for me and I have a husband so that makes a difference. You have to go with your gut on this if all factors seem to be equal everywhere else. Although Penn does have a reputation that Midwestern will have to earn in years to come.🙂

 

[Skimble]

I'm not sure if I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I came up with a $43k difference between UPenn IS and Midwestern. Then there is the cost of moving to consider also. It's reasonable to consider moving some furniture and belongings to PA, that may be cost prohibitive for AZ. Would you want to be able to return home to visit family for holidays?

I was also accepted to Penn and Midwestern, but I knew from the start that if I were accepted to Penn that I'd decline all other offers. To me that extra $43k + interest in debt was enough to deter me. Taking a year off to gain residency in PA may also be good for saving up some money so you don't have to take out as much in loans, saving you even more.

Plus there is the accreditation issue. Granted I think there is hardly any chance that Midwestern won't eventually become accredited, but it COULD happen. Personally I would go with the cheaper school that is currently accredited, and therefore you are guaranteed to graduate from an accredited university.

 

[dyachei]

I'm not sure if I'm looking at this the wrong way, but I came up with a $43k difference between UPenn IS and Midwestern. Then there is the cost of moving to consider also. It's reasonable to consider moving some furniture and belongings to PA, that may be cost prohibitive for AZ. Would you want to be able to return home to visit family for holidays?

I was also accepted to Penn and Midwestern, but I knew from the start that if I were accepted to Penn that I'd decline all other offers. To me that extra $43k + interest in debt was enough to deter me. Taking a year off to gain residency in PA may also be good for saving up some money so you don't have to take out as much in loans, saving you even more.

Plus there is the accreditation issue. Granted I think there is hardly any chance that Midwestern won't eventually become accredited, but it COULD happen. Personally I would go with the cheaper school that is currently accredited, and therefore you are guaranteed to graduate from an accredited university.

Even if they are probationally accredited, students that graduate will have accredited degrees. The student is not at risk, only the institution.

 

[Skimble]

Even if they are probationally accredited, students that graduate will have accredited degrees. The student is not at risk, only the institution.

Midwestern is not probationally accredited, they are provisionally accredited. They told us at the interview that they cannot receive full accreditation until they graduate a few classes and get stats for NAVLE. Graduates will be treated as if they had come from a fully accredited university, unless they never receive full accreditation. If that were to happen, all those graduates who had been practicing vets would have to take the ECVFG/PAVE. I don't think that will happen, but there is a slim chance that it could. If I were looking at two schools that cost exactly the same except one was provisionally accredited and the other was fully or probationally accredited, I would likely choose the fully/probationally accredited school.

 

[dyachei]

Midwestern is not probationally accredited, they are provisionally accredited. They told us at the interview that they cannot receive full accreditation until they graduate a few classes and get stats for NAVLE. Graduates will be treated as if they had come from a fully accredited university, unless they never receive full accreditation. If that were to happen, all those graduates who had been practicing vets would have to take the ECVFG/PAVE. I don't think that will happen, but there is a slim chance that it could. If I were looking at two schools that cost exactly the same except one was provisionally accredited and the other was fully or probationally accredited, I would likely choose the fully/probationally accredited school.

American Veterinary Medical Association Council on Education (AVMA COE)

The AVMA states that “when a student graduates from a veterinary school or college that is operating under any classification of AVMA COE accreditation, the student is considered a graduate of an accredited school for purposes of licensing examinations or other certification that requires graduation from an AVMA COE-accredited institution as a prerequisite”.

 

[Skimble]

American Veterinary Medical Association Council on Education (AVMA COE)

The AVMA states that “when a student graduates from a veterinary school or college that is operating under any classification of AVMA COE accreditation, the student is considered a graduate of an accredited school for purposes of licensing examinations or other certification that requires graduation from an AVMA COE-accredited institution as a prerequisite”.

Yes, initially this is true, unless the school never becomes fully accredited. That is what the dean at Midwestern told us during the interview presentation. Someone even asked what that meant for those who had graduated and had been considered licensed vets, and he said it wasn't a big deal, "they would just have to take the PAVE/ECVFG."

I admit I don't know the in's and outs of accreditation, but I sincerely believe/hope the dean at Midwestern does. This isn't their first rodeo and I'm sure they have all their ducks in a row and will be accredited no problem, but it was brought up as a potential concern while I was there.

 

[dyachei]

Yes, initially this is true, unless the school never becomes fully accredited. That is what the dean at Midwestern told us during the interview presentation. Someone even asked what that meant for those who had graduated and had been considered licensed vets, and he said it wasn't a big deal, "they would just have to take the PAVE/ECVFG."

I admit I don't know the in's and outs of accreditation, but I sincerely believe/hope the dean at Midwestern does. This isn't their first rodeo and I'm sure they have all their ducks in a row and will be accredited no problem, but it was brought up as a potential concern while I was there.

I find it highly unlikely that that is what he meant. He may have meant that new vets that entered would need to pass those tests. That information came from the AVMA site.

 

[LetItSnow]

There is no chance that once they pass a student through NAVLE and they are out and licensed and practicing that they're going to go back and say "HaHA! Your school never did get full accreditation. You lose!" That would be lawsuit city. Ain't gonna happen.

Either that dean misspoke or somebody misinterpreted him.

 

[Skimble]

I find it highly unlikely that that is what he meant. He may have meant that new vets that entered would need to pass those tests. That information came from the AVMA site.

He really was quite clear about it. He didn't believe it would ever be an issue, but he clearly expressed that should Midwestern never receive full accreditation than ALL vet graduates, even those who has passed the NAVLE and were practicing veterinarians, would no longer be considered licensed and would have to take the PAVE/ECVFG.

I looked at the AVMA website regarding accreditation before I decided to apply to Midwestern and there isn't a lot about provisional accreditation or reasonable assurance, but my understanding based off the dean at Midwestern, is that this state of pre-accreditation falls under a different set of rules than what you quoted above. I understand where you are coming from too, but the dean was very clear and specific and many people asked questions that specifically addressed what would happen to the initial graduates should the school never become fully accredited.

 

[dyachei]

He really was quite clear about it. He didn't believe it would ever be an issue, but he clearly expressed that should Midwestern never receive full accreditation than ALL vet graduates, even those who has passed the NAVLE and were practicing veterinarians, would no longer be considered licensed and would have to take the PAVE/ECVFG.

I looked at the AVMA website regarding accreditation before I decided to apply to Midwestern and there isn't a lot about provisional accreditation or reasonable assurance, but my understanding based off the dean at Midwestern, is that this state of pre-accreditation falls under a different set of rules than what you quoted above. I understand where you are coming from too, but the dean was very clear and specific and many people asked questions that specifically addressed what would happen to the initial graduates should the school never become fully accredited.

It, in fact, does not. I went through all the documents the AVMA has on accreditation. He is likely misunderstanding what they told him.

ETA: You would think if this were a thing, it would be spelled out with the AVMA. It is not. It is simple a type of accreditation.

 

[rushy]

The dean didn't say that when I was there for interview. He said that as long as they pass site inspections they shouldn't have any issues with accreditation and that they are on track to be fully accredited once they graduate their first class.

 

[Skimble]

It, in fact, does not. I went through all the documents the AVMA has on accreditation. He is likely misunderstanding what they told him.

I can tell you the room got VERY quiet when he told us that. Even if it was a one in a million chance, the thought of spending all that time and money just to have your career stolen from you is a sickening thought.

I don't mind calling them for clarification again if anyone is interested.

 

[dyachei]

I can tell you the room got VERY quiet when he told us that. Even if it was a one in a million chance, the thought of spending all that time and money just to have your career stolen from you is a sickening thought.

I don't mind calling them for clarification again if anyone is interested.

I would. Because it's not ANYWHERE on the AVMA site even in the legalese that they have for accreditation. I would think calling the COE would be more clarifying though.

 

[LetItSnow]

No chance. 0% chance. Wouldn't happen.

 

[Skimble]

The dean didn't say that when I was there for interview. He said that as long as they pass site inspections they shouldn't have any issues with accreditation and that they are on track to be fully accredited once they graduate their first class.

He didn't volunteer the info to us until some one asked specifically about what would happen to those who has already graduated if they never become accredited.

Assuming we don't get too slammed at work tomorrow I'll try to call Midwestern and the COE (assuming I can find a good contact number for them). Though I sincerely believe it is likely a non-issue.

 

[rushy]

He didn't volunteer the info to us until some one asked specifically about what would happen to those who has already graduated if they never become accredited.

Assuming we don't get too slammed at work tomorrow I'll try to call Midwestern and the COE (assuming I can find a good contact number for them). Though I sincerely believe it is likely a non-issue.

I'm not concerned. I wholeheartedly believe everything will be fine. Midwestern wouldn't have built a 120,000 square foot (or whatever size it is) hospital, MRI building and Large animal facility if they didn't mean business. They have been and are doing all they can to make sure they are accredited as soon as they can be. It's a non-issue. Also to think that people would have their license revoked due to accreditation seems crazy to me. If that were to ever happen, I imagine there would be some concessions to grandfather people in who already are in practice. The whole thing sounds crazy though.

 

[Fly Racing]

Jilary, you misheard the information. We, as a class, have talked accreditation to every scenario with Dean Sidaway and worst case scenario, and most far fetched, is AVMA loses their authority over accreditation. In which case all students would graduate from non-accredited schools and have to take additional testing until a new accreditation body was formed. This was the worst case we could come up with, but it would not be a unique problem to Midwestern. It's also extremely unlikely to occur (no matter how many vets want to disband the COE), because it would leave us all, at any school, in a worse position that we are currently.

Any student enrolled at midwestern or another school when it has any type of accreditation is guaranteed the to graduate with that status regardless of changes of status between enrollment and graduation. This is very well spelled out in the COE rules. There are no "take backs".

There is zero risk for CO '19 because the school is currently provisionally accredited, so graduates are guaranteed to graduate with that status. The risk to last years class was the school could not be given provisional accreditation until the first class was enrolled. We had only a "letter of assurance". Now for this year, there is a hard and fast guarantee from the COE.

 

[Skimble]

Jilary, you misheard the information. We, as a class, have talked accreditation to every scenario with Dean Sidaway and worst case scenario, and most far fetched, is AVMA loses their authority over accreditation. In which case all students would graduate from non-accredited schools and have to take additional testing until a new accreditation body was formed. This was the worst case we could come up with, but it would not be a unique problem to Midwestern. It's also extremely unlikely to occur (no matter how many vets want to disband the COE), because it would leave us all, at any school, in a worse position that we are currently.

Any student enrolled at midwestern or another school when it has any type of accreditation is guaranteed the to graduate with that status regardless of changes of status between enrollment and graduation. This is very well spelled out in the COE rules. There are no "take backs".

There is zero risk for CO '19 because the school is currently provisionally accredited, so graduates are guaranteed to graduate with that status. The risk to last years class was the school could not be given provisional accreditation until the first class was enrolled. We had only a "letter of assurance". Now for this year, there is a hard and fast guarantee from the COE.

I looked at the COE website over the weekend and I thought it might have to do with the difference between "reasonable assurance" and "provisional accreditation". MWU was still listed on their website as having reasonable assurance when I interviewed.