I'm pretty sure they use a captive internship. That's why their match rate jumped so quickly about 3 years ago and it's what they are referring to when discussing the 2-year half-time internship on their website.
Hi, what is a captive internship?
I understand, thanks for explaining this to me, I really appreciate it. And how do I spot this?
If you look at the outcome stats they have to post on their homepage, you'll generally notice a huge jump in their accredited internship match rate in a single year. The actual text is typically buried somewhere on their website, but you can see hints here or there, like using two-year part-time internships. Others will come out and say that they use a local consortium or some other language, but try to cast it as a positive thing.
I see what you mean, thanks for explaining it!
Hi, not sure what you mean with EMDR. What do you mean by that?
That’s what I thought you meant. Okay, thanks!
Tbh, I’d run far away from that level of debt for psych program, regardless of reputation.
Can you suggest a resource for finding the most up to date EPPP pass rates for programs?
Post deleted due to incorrect info. Sorry about that.
Programs publish their licensure percentages in the "Student Admissions, Outcomes, and Other Data" area but not the EPPP pass rate data.
This is helpful. Thank you.
I stand corrected, and misleading post deleted
Hey Mila1998,
This info is incorrect. MWU does not have a “captive internship”, please fact check prior to posting especially if you are not affiliated with a program or have not been affiliated with a program for some time.
Thanks for advice. I'll try to keep in mind the next time we're discussing diploma mills.
Can you estimate what the average debt burden a student should anticipate after attending this program? It looks like the cost per year is north of 40K and that does not include living expenses. I wonder how many people get these scholarships and how much are the scholarships? The program seems to have a decent attrition rate, is that due to the cost?
I'm early career and work a standard GS-13 VA job and it covers my expenses & retirement. I've noticed that some of my VA supervisors/colleagues who also worked full-time for the VA and did private practice on top were more likely to have attended PsyD programs (including at VAs that often offered EDRP loan forgiveness).
Wait, so they've announced that the 25-year income-based repayment plan forgiveness is actually tax-free now? The PSLF forgiveness has always been tax-free, but I didn't realize they reversed course on the 25-year forgiveness tax bomb.
More importantly, the tax bomb was punishing the victims of predatory institutions. Yes, they are smart enough to know better, but with other crimes we don't leave the predator unscathed and put all the burden on the victims. Instead of focusing on a crab mentality to pull down people who are in huge debt because of grad school, we should be focused on regulating or banning these predatory institutions.
I am sincerely happy that things have worked out for you. I encourage the OP to contact you and get your perspective on the program. However, recognize that this is subjective data (as are the opinions of the posters on this board). In the end, you need to give much more weight to the OBJECTIVE data. This program 25-33% of the students who have entered this program do not finish, yet still have to pay tuition for the coursework that is not likely to transfer elsewhere. If tuition is financed in the traditional student loan format, it will result in a level of debt (monthly payments in the 1k-2k range) that will have significant impacts on your future lifestyle when calculated against even mid-career median psychologists salaries. It would be disingenuous to say that- should you actually complete the program and get licensed- you wouldn't be able to get a decent job, but you would be cut off from several employment opportunities prima facie. There may be options for loan forgiveness (never guaranteed), but this would also limit your employment opportunities. Many student who matriculate (probably even most of them) at this program end up making a living as a psychologist. Objective data indicated that, however, many do not. Of those who do, the high tuition suggests that many students end up with life-style crippling levels of student loan debt.
A large chunk of them would eliminated if they banned captive internship sites and set strict minimum standards, e.g., internship match rates, attrition, limits on tuition.
My mentor knows my wife well and they are very friendly and conversant during any lab social activities. All the faculty in my program know me and most know my dog as well.
My hypothesis is that the marketing material from these institutions target students who do not have models for what graduate study should look like (e.g., first-generation, neglectful mentors in their undergraduate labs), so their experience of higher education is swollen classes where they rarely interact with a professor or graduate TA, thereby feeling like "just a number". When I was considering an FSPS, I was awed by their "small classes" (seminars of 15 students) and "low student-to-faculty ratio" (despite having cohorts of 50-60 students) because up until then I did not know that that was not what graduate study was supposed to be.
Agreed. If we want less poor-quality programs we need to make more high-quality programs. I am in support of smaller state schools starting PsyD programs even if they can only provide partial tuition remission but charge typical in-state tuition. The idea of a school asking for over 40K a year is insane (I mean it is like 3X insane).
UT Southwestern is probably the best example of a captive internship done right. I’m torn on the topic, ideally a captive internship would be nice to cut down on some of the expenses and logistical/life challenges of a clinical psychology degree. At the same time, the National match process is one of the few ways predatory programs get held accountable for sub par training. Stricter guidelines for grad program APA accreditation would fix some of that I believe.
Yeah, it's a bit absurd that applying to and moving for internship is so cumbersome and captive internships are not inherently bad in principle, but it's important to look how they're actually being used. They aren't being used to, say, allow clinical science students to continue their research while fulfilling internship requirements, which can be difficult, or to save considerable money for prospective interns (what's a few thousand more in debt for someone who is already over $200,000 in debt from tuition alone?). No, by and large they are used by diploma mills and other poor quality programs to artificially inflate their match stats. That way, they can further deceive prospective students and employers about the quality of their programs and policies (e.g., admitting anyone with a heartbeat).
I agree. To have completion of your degree based on factors that are- to some extent- outside of the control of the school and the student seems a bit problematic to me. Also, while I certainly hope some programs weren't/aren't that predatory, there actually is a potential financial incentive for expensive tuition-based programs to have students hang around longer and pay for an extra year (particularly when the active role of the school and faculty is greatly reduced in those later, extra years).
That's the program I think of when I think of a solid captive site. Unfortunately, many of the rest (but not all) use a captive site as a way to match and essentially hide less competitive students.
