cincincyreds

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So I got an email about MOCA 2.0.

Anyway, two days ago I signed up for the simulator for my MOCA. Now just now tonight I just got an email about MOCA 2.0 and it said the simulator is not required anymore, only suggested. I'm not got to do a $1900 simulator that is suggested as that is a waste of money.

Can I call the simulator to get my money back?
 

BobBarker

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"The MOCA Minute application, an interactive learning tool that we began piloting in 2014, will replace the MOCA Examination as the Board's MOC Part 3: Assessment of Knowledge, Judgment, and Skills. You may learn more about the MOCA Minute application in the 2015 edition of ABA News."

:wow::soexcited::clap::highfive::D
 

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You better cancel that simulator stat, and demand your money back
 
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aneftp

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Most simulators center have a $100-200 cancellation policy if you cancel more than 30 days out.

Worst you will be is out $100-200.

Since you just signed up a couple of days ago and ABA made the change. They may even waive that fee

Just call them up. They should be reasonable about it.
 

BLADEMDA

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99% of private practice Anesthesiologists are not going to take off an entire day (maybe even 2 depending on the Simulator center's location) and spend $1500 to do the Simulation lab. The ABA has killed off the revenue stream to the Simulator labs.
 
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deleted50478

99% of private practice Anesthesiologists are not going to take off an entire day (maybe even 2 depending on the Simulator center's location) and spend $1500 to do the Simulation lab. The ABA has killed off the revenue stream to the Simulator labs.
Good! If they can't survive on their own merits without coercion then they should die out.
 

Noyac

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Yes Blade, I am staying tuned to this. I suspect these centers will have something to say.

Now that the ABA has made a few changes, are any of you happy? Did they do enough?
 

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Yes Blade, I am staying tuned to this. I suspect these centers will have something to say.

Now that the ABA has made a few changes, are any of you happy? Did they do enough?
Cost still too much. Need to abandon the QI project completely. All other changes are good.
 
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Consigliere

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Don't be too happy - they'll find a way to recoup their losses somehow. BOHICA, baby.
 

urge

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Now that the ABA has made a few changes, are any of you happy? Did they do enough?
They need to get rid of the Case Evaluations also. I'm not a 5th grader anymore. It's ridiculous.

What is it that costs $210/year? A weekly email question? Shouldn't it be way cheaper now that they got rid of the computer testing centers costs to them? We are being played.
 

Gern Blansten

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We need full financial disclosure of what our money is providing. Urge is correct. The testing centers were a large part of the expense. No reason for the cost to remain the same. Telling us it is divided into much easier to digest yearly amounts is an old used car salesman trick. Just tell me what the service costs to the ABA, and I will pay that plus a fair surcharge for administration costs. No more paying for travel/lodging expenses for examiners/directors and plush new buildings. Just make us pay a fair market price for the services provided.
 

Hawaiian Bruin

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Wow. I'm conflicted. On the one hand, it's hard not to see this as a very positive move on the part of the ABA. No closed-book test and no sim, replaced by online questions- this is clearly a meaningful reform, which the ABA can be applauded for.

BUT. But. The "practice improvement" crap is still there. If they can make it so that the real, actual stuff we do for our own practice improvement efforts counts toward this, that's one thing. Because I do all kinds of stuff all the time, from going to meetings, to having journal clubs, arranging didactics, case conferences, etc. I shouldn't have to do anything more. I also think that participating in a registry like NACOR or the STS anesthesia database should automatically earn this credit.

And the cost. Yes, we no longer have to burn a day or two of opportunity cost of work or precious vacation to do the dumb sim, nor pay the almost $2000 registration plus the travel costs. That's a good thing. But $2100 is still a lot of money, and I agree with those that question this number. If all they're doing is coming up with questions to email, it seems hard to justify that cost.

Here's what makes me happy- the choice between NBPAS and staying with the ABA is now a closer decision. If NBPAS is about $850 per ten years, and the ABA is $2100, I'm basically paying $1250 for ten years' worth of weekly "current" questions. That's expensive, but it's not as completely ridiculous as the choice before. With all the opportunity/travel costs between the sim and the test, MOCA was more than $9K per cycle- that was a no-brainer in favor of NBPAS.

I think they should make the cost commensurate with their expense to produce the questions, and ditch the PPAI stuff entirely. Then I'll be truly happy.
 
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I'm encouraged. I'll withhold judgment until I see the final form of things come Jan 1, 2016.

And $2100 is still too much, but absent the sim and exam at least 2/3rds of my gripes have been addressed.
 

urge

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Here's what makes me happy- the choice between NBPAS and staying with the ABA is now a closer decision. If NBPAS is about $850 per ten years, and the ABA is $2100, I'm basically paying $1250 for ten years' worth of weekly "current" questions. That's expensive, but it's not as completely ridiculous as the choice before. With all the opportunity/travel costs between the sim and the test, MOCA was more than $9K per cycle- that was a no-brainer in favor of NBPAS.
ABA is going to require a computer based simulator, kind of like the ACLS on line. Of course it will be proprietary, and will cost a lot. Basically they are diverting business from sim centers to themselves.

$2100 is not the end of the story.
 
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dr doze

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I would have preferred that they keep they exam and lose the case evaluation.
 
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Who does this apply to? My aba account still wants me to register for the exam and take the simulator (which I too have already paid for).
 

drrosenrosen

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For now, they're only piloting it for a select group. But I would guess this is what their final "offer" is going to end up like. If NBPAS really catches on and is accepted generally by hospitals and MECs, I think I'll abandon ABA.
 

norwood

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For now, they're only piloting it for a select group. But I would guess this is what their final "offer" is going to end up like. If NBPAS really catches on and is accepted generally by hospitals and MECs, I think I'll abandon ABA.
According to their email, it's everyone come 1/1/16.
 

norwood

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Who does this apply to? My aba account still wants me to register for the exam and take the simulator (which I too have already paid for).
When does your board ticket expire? If it's after the beginning of '16, apparently you can skip the sim and replace it. They haven't announced the details of choices for what to replace it with, though.

+1 to those who have said that getting rid of the silly, overpriced closed-book test and the equally silly, overpriced sim session are very positive steps.
 

inmyslumber

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Cautiously happy with the changes. Still a bit in shock that real changes were made. Did the petition and other "feedback" really work? Amazing.

I did not want to have to take the secured exam. I already did the simulation. It was paid for by work and it was fine but if SIM is optional, do not do it. Obviously stated - since I hope no one needs that advice.
 

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I would have kept the sim and gotten rid of the performance improvement project. I do so many local improvement projects that its ridiculous.

Overall happy about the direction they are going in.
 
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aneftp

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So those certified between 2000-2003 got a decent deal (having to take just the test and most of them got to cross off 50 questions if they took the test before 2011). They didn't need to even do a case eval or written test.

My cohort group always has it rough. Those certified in 2004-2005 got screwed. We had to do both the test and case eval or simulator. Ha ha.

I'll keep the MOCA certificate they just mailed to me 2 weeks ago in its envelope. It says January 2nd 2016 as certificate date.

Honestly no one likes the costs and time to do it. But most of us can write off the costs.

So I wrote off the $2100 when I was self employed. And when I went back into academics I got CME money and 2 days paid time off (CME days) for the simulator course.
 
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I would get paid time off, and no charge for the sim because the Navy runs a sim center. I'm still glad it's gone.

I have never in my life been anything except irritated and annoyed by any sim-based exam I've ever done. They have some merit as teaching tools, if done well.
 

IlDestriero

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I did sim training during my fellowship and offer it to our residents and fellows. We try to simulate some of the uncommon/rare peds emergencies that they may not see while here. It is universally praised by the trainees. Having said that, a lot of effort goes into putting together good quality scenarios and, more importantly, quality debriefing.
 
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Mman

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My question is on the timing of this thing. My certificate expires 2020. According to the old (or I guess still current) MOCA, I was due to complete either a case evaluation or simulation in the first 5 years and the other in the second 5 years. That meant one of them had to be done by 12/12/15. This new MOCA 2.0 goes live on 1/1/16. Does that mean I can just not do anything this year and then pick up in 2016 with 2.0?
 

IlDestriero

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My question is on the timing of this thing. My certificate expires 2020. According to the old (or I guess still current) MOCA, I was due to complete either a case evaluation or simulation in the first 5 years and the other in the second 5 years. That meant one of them had to be done by 12/12/15. This new MOCA 2.0 goes live on 1/1/16. Does that mean I can just not do anything this year and then pick up in 2016 with 2.0?
I would guess the timing of the new program to start in 1/2016 was deliberate and means that anyone with a requirement to do something this year, or expiring this year, has to complete whatever requirements are due for 2015. (Sim, MOCA exam, etc. and at whatever the old fees were as well.)
You could call them, but I've called them before about something and I didn't think they were very interested in being overly helpful. Quite the opposite.
 

LostTommyGuns

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Now that the ABA has made a few changes, are any of you happy? Did they do enough?
I, for one, am happy. I worked intensively with Hawaiian Bruin on this and I think that the ABA has established meaningful changes. Yeah it's not perfect but I'd say it's pretty good (assuming they have a reasonable application of the practice improvement component as HB suggested). So I'll withhold final judgement but for now as it pertains to our specialty I think this is an appreciable win and I offer my thanks and congratulations to those who fought along side us and especially to those that signed their names to that support.

With respect to the larger issue of MOC or #NOMOC I think this is also a very positive step forward, it compounds upon moves by the ABIM and while appreciably smaller than the ABIM it lends credibility to the argument and offers a framework that other boards can branch off of and this is tremendously positive for all physicians.
I offer that it would be foolish to rest on our laurels but as my father says: Life is short, victories are hard to come by. Enjoy them when you can. :banana:

Oh and I know of at least one person who was due to take the test this year who was offered his money back, as hard as I would like to be on the ABA that's commendable.
 

BLADEMDA

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So is the new Certificate still good for 10 years? If your Certificate expires in 2019 will the ABA renew it until 2029 under MOCA 2.0? I'm still vague as to the requirements for a renewal. I have done the Case evaluation/study and the simulator but not the safety CME. I did plenty of ACE/SEE throughout the cycle.
What should I complete in 2015? 2016? Should I bother with the safety CME?
 

LostTommyGuns

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As I understand it, in the present form (subject to change) yes if your certificate expires in 2019 it will be renewed to 2029 under MOCA 2.0. You didn't say when your certificate expires (or I missed it) but assuming it's not this year I would just do whatever you were going to do anyway in regards to CME (no specific requirements so go to ASA or whatever).

They could easily shake up the CME requirements so may as well wait another year and see what happens.


**Recognize that I'm just parsing that from what I get from reading the ABA website. No official proclamation of clarity here.
 

BLADEMDA

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As I understand it, in the present form (subject to change) yes if your certificate expires in 2019 it will be renewed to 2029 under MOCA 2.0. You didn't say when your certificate expires (or I missed it) but assuming it's not this year I would just do whatever you were going to do anyway in regards to CME (no specific requirements so go to ASA or whatever).

They could easily shake up the CME requirements so may as well wait another year and see what happens.


**Recognize that I'm just parsing that from what I get from reading the ABA website. No official proclamation of clarity here.
2019. The only things missing are the safety CME (20 credits) and the exam. But, I have an UNLIMITED LIFETIME CERTIFICATION so I'm really not that concerned. My question is whether to bother with the safety CMEs this year or skip them and just do ACE/SEE which I much prefer. I don't need any additional CME credits to complete the 10 year requirement as I have plenty.
 

Gas

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I still can't believe the ABA is making all these changes. At least they are moving in the right direction. I am very encouraged that they have listened to our feedback, and it is proof that we should continue to voice our concerns.

As for me, I certified in 2008, and I expire in 2018. I have completed everything except the exam: I did the simulator, patient safety CME, ACE questions, PPAI, etc. The only thing left for me is the exam. Does this mean I no longer have to take the exam? If so, I am elated!
 

LostTommyGuns

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I still can't believe the ABA is making all these changes. At least they are moving in the right direction. I am very encouraged that they have listened to our feedback, and it is proof that we should continue to voice our concerns.

As for me, I certified in 2008, and I expire in 2018. I have completed everything except the exam: I did the simulator, patient safety CME, ACE questions, PPAI, etc. The only thing left for me is the exam. Does this mean I no longer have to take the exam? If so, I am elated!

Yup no exam for you sir. I would proffer that not only should we continue to voice our concerns, we should do it even LOUDER.
 
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aneftp

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If you looked at the requirements for those certified before these massive changes

Certified in 2000-2003
ABA written test required (if taken before 2011) could eliminate 50 questions you didn't know. Passing rate 97%
No simulation or case study required

Certified between 2004-2007
ABA written test required (all 200 questions required). Average passing rate falls to 88%
Take either simulation course or do case study

Those certified after 2008

ASA safety cme required
ABA written test required
Both simulation course and case study required


So those certified 2000-2003 made off like bandits
Those certified after 2008 are probably making off like bandits

Those certified between 2004-2005 get screwed

2006/2007 iffy if they got screwed.
 

BLADEMDA

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I'm not sure why those certified after 2008 made off like bandits. I did a case study and the simulator. I will likely do the patient safety CME as well. The only thing I did not do was the exam because I have a few more years to go.

Anyone who is board certified can pass the MOCA written exam if he/she studies and takes it seriously. Invest 2-3 days of board review and you will pass the exam
 

Guy Caballero

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Aneftp,
Good assessment. Those before 2000 are the real winners, but then, we all know that.
I was in the 2000-2003 group for primary certification, so the recert exam was good and reasonable. I did not feel like it was a burden because of the ability to throw out 50 questions. I still studied a lot for it but did exceptionally well and my keyword list was only about 7 items. That landed me in the after 2008 recert group. I was hopeful that the ridiculous demands would change. I registered for the next MOCA cycle and have done CME only. I kept putting off the sim and practice improvement stuff, almost like, if I ignored it, it might just go away. Then, at least part of it did "just go away." Now they need to do away with the practice improvement thing and lower the cost to a fair market value (probably needs a 50% reduction in cost IMHO) and I will be back on the "Pro ABA side."
 

aneftp

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I'm not sure why those certified after 2008 made off like bandits. I did a case study and the simulator. I will likely do the patient safety CME as well. The only thing I did not do was the exam because I have a few more years to go.

Anyone who is board certified can pass the MOCA written exam if he/she studies and takes it seriously. Invest 2-3 days of board review and you will pass the exam
Depends what practice environment you are in. If you been doing strictly pain for past 7-8 years or even strictly outpatient anesthesia. You could fail the Moca exam. 2-3 days board review and 1-2 weeks studying after doing just pain isn't going to cut it.

Why did pass rate drop from 97% to 88%? 12% are failing the exam.

That's the real question. Why did the failure rate increase dramatically?

You can't walk into the exam cold unless you are in some well rounded environment doing most types of cases. Or just an excellent test taker.

Most people have to study for the exam. One of my buddies in San Francisco failed the exam January 2014. He took it cold. He's a hippie. Travels the world and works like 30 hours a week mainly outpatient. You do get "dumber" over the years.
 

BLADEMDA

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Depends what practice environment you are in. If you been doing strictly pain for past 7-8 years or even strictly outpatient anesthesia. You could fail the Moca exam. 2-3 days board review and 1-2 weeks studying after doing just pain isn't going to cut it.

Why did pass rate drop from 97% to 88%? 12% are failing the exam.

That's the real question. Why did the failure rate increase dramatically?

You can't walk into the exam cold unless you are in some well rounded environment doing most types of cases. Or just an excellent test taker.

Most people have to study for the exam. One of my buddies in San Francisco failed the exam January 2014. He took it cold. He's a hippie. Travels the world and works like 30 hours a week mainly outpatient. You do get "dumber" over the years.
I think some of us on SDN are on top of our game. I don't know if my test scores are higher today than 20 years ago but my anesthesia skills are vastly superior.
 
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aneftp

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I think some of us on SDN are on top of our game. I don't know if my test scores are higher today than 20 years ago but my anesthesia skills are vastly superior.
True. I don't think SDN members represent the average anesthesiologist.

Like I told 2 members of my new group about moca 2.0 and they were just clueless. They barely knew their moca 1.0 requirements. All they knew was test needed to be taken.
 

LostTommyGuns

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Yeah undoubtedly some people benefitted more than others even within groups. One of my friends did the sim just recently (and told me that given all the sim centers and all the people that needed to do the sim there simply weren't enough spots even if accommodation was perfect FWIW) and he and I passed orals the same time. Careful procrastination and vigorous fighting win the day again! Just goes to show that a dollar now is always better than a dollar later! :)
 

aneftp

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Yeah undoubtedly some people benefitted more than others even within groups. One of my friends did the sim just recently (and told me that given all the sim centers and all the people that needed to do the sim there simply weren't enough spots even if accommodation was perfect FWIW) and he and I passed orals the same time. Careful procrastination and vigorous fighting win the day again! Just goes to show that a dollar now is always better than a dollar later! :)
True. I got boarded in 2004. At that time I read the ABA moca requirements saying 350 cme was needed over 10 years.

That's 35 cme each year on average. They limited the cme to 70 per year I think in 2007/2008. I had already accumulated well over 150 cme by that time (Asa See program) plus grand rounds every Tuesday morning racked up the cme easily.

Than I think in 2009/2010 they limited to 60 cme per year.

Finally in 2012 they changed it again to 250 cme.

So the ABA is constantly changing the rules of the game. I took my written exam early and simulation course as well. I just want to get things out of the way.

But like you said. It pays to procrastinate with the ABA. You save time and money!
 

Guy Caballero

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Depends what practice environment you are in. If you been doing strictly pain for past 7-8 years or even strictly outpatient anesthesia. You could fail the Moca exam. 2-3 days board review and 1-2 weeks studying after doing just pain isn't going to cut it.

Why did pass rate drop from 97% to 88%? 12% are failing the exam.

That's the real question. Why did the failure rate increase dramatically?

You can't walk into the exam cold unless you are in some well rounded environment doing most types of cases. Or just an excellent test taker.

Most people have to study for the exam. One of my buddies in San Francisco failed the exam January 2014. He took it cold. He's a hippie. Travels the world and works like 30 hours a week mainly outpatient. You do get "dumber" over the years.
I was told that the ABMS mandated that they do away with throwing out questions and that a "real" exam was need with a real fail rate (not a 99% pass rate) or the ABA was at risk for losing their ABMS status. The next thing you know, a decent percentage of people are failing the exam.
 

inmyslumber

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I was told that the ABMS mandated that they do away with throwing out questions and that a "real" exam was need with a real fail rate (not a 99% pass rate) or the ABA was at risk for losing their ABMS status. The next thing you know, a decent percentage of people are failing the exam.
That is interesting. Were you told about the ABMS mandate from someone in the ABA/ASA?

I guess ABMS is the villain in this story then...or maybe the fall guy.
 

Jcm800

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hey guys. this stuff has confused me quite a bit.

I received primary certification on Sept 15th 2006.

does that mean i am eligible for the MOCA 2.0, ie dont have to do the simulator, written exam?

reading the emails and ABA website, im not sure where i am at...
 
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deleted50478

hey guys. this stuff has confused me quite a bit.

I received primary certification on Sept 15th 2016.

does that mean i am eligible for the MOCA 2.0, ie dont have to do the simulator, written exam?

reading the emails and ABA website, im not sure where i am at...
I don't know but I like your car.

 
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Hawaiian Bruin

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I hope everyone responded to the email from the ABA about the PPAI stuff, telling them to just get rid of it completely!
 

gascopper

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the ABA still doesnt know what MOCA 2.0 will look like except that it wont be cheaper. probabyl the same price or more, but no more exams which definately help people save money on review books and courses.
 

gasdoc77

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This required patient safety CME by the National Patient Safety Foundation (10 hr of online modules) is the biggest load of crap. Basic, intuitive concepts, all centered around communication, restated in elaborate models with acronyms that were created by MSN JD's and force fed to us. Intelligent minds take complex subjects and make them simple, while simple minds take basic subjects and make them complex (usually so they can do a paid talk on it or make a poster to justify their otherwise made-up career position).
Rant over.
 
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