Moral issue

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linkorn12

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You learned a valuable lesson: don't go sharing your essay with people. This exact situation makes me wonder why people so freely share their personal statement with everyone, especially those on SDN.

I suppose you could try and report it, but I don't think it would be worth the effort.
 
Break into his house at night and smother him with a pillow. Wear a ski mask. Don't actually suffocate him though, go just far enough to send him a strong message. Then, disguising your voice, tell him you're with a government task force aimed at bringing plagiarizers to justice, and that if he doesn't fix what he's done, you'll be back. After all, you know where he lives! Silently exit.

When he asks if it was you the next day, look at him as if he were crazy and remember: deny, deny, deny.

Works every time.
 
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Reporting would be a pain in the butt for you---Your friend would deny, and doesn't sound like you could prove anything. Anyone looking at the case would just wonder why in the world you would share your PS with someone else in the first place. It is a PERSONAL statement.
 
You should go up to him and say something like:

"I just re-wrote my PS, and I am so glad I did. It turns out that AdComs really hate hearing about things like altruism, caring about others, and all that junk. They see it all the time. What they like to see is someone who is realistic. Now my PS talks about how I want to be a doctor so I can make a good salary, invest my income and become a multi-millionaire by the time I retire."
 
ColeOnTheRoll said:
You learned a valuable lesson: don't go sharing your essay with people.
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You're absolutely right. i feel like a jackass now for doing it. I only did it because he was a very close friend, the only applicant this cycle I showed, and we swapped essays literally the day before our PS was due as dictated by our premed office, so I didnt think there would be time to rewrite or anything.
 
You could make an extremely powerful new personal statement in 4 words - chicks. money. power. chicks.
 
Catalystik said:
I hope you mean this literally and that he is no longer considered a friend. He has not been a friend to you. A statement to him of your disappointment about his behavior is in order.

Don't show him your Secondary essays. Lesson learned.
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Absolutely.

I could be paranoid, but what do you guys think is the chance of a med school catching on to this? We are from the same school, same year, same major, applying to the same medical schools, similiar ECs, ... and now similar PS. I know they get thousands of apps a year and its probably unlikely... at least I hope so.. anyways

fml
 
linkorn12 said:
Absolutely.

I could be paranoid, but what do you guys think is the chance of a med school catching on to this? We are from the same school, same year, same major, applying to the same medical schools, similiar ECs, ... and now similar PS. I know they get thousands of apps a year and its probably unlikely... at least I hope so.. anyways

fml
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College professors use software that identifies likely plagiarism, even across years that they've taught a class (recent SDN post demonstrates this). It's not outside the realm of possibility that adcomms might do the same. Maybe LizzyM would have input on this issue.
 
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tell him that he's got reason to freak out too, seeing as how if any schools caught on, you'd both be in trouble. then both of you should plan on withdrawing some of your primaries (most schools won't even look at your material until your application is complete, including secondaries) and re-submitting to all entirely different schools. if not, you both could be in some serious s***
 
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This is a matter that I would speak to a trusted professor or an adviser about.

In addition, I would use this experience as a lesson in your future interactions with friends. Err on the side of caution.

I am sorry to hear about this, and good luck.
 
Who hit the Submit button first?
 
Dianyla said:
Who hit the Submit button first?
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I did, by a week. If it comes down to it I can prove that he was as fault. But I don't know if it is worth pursuing because it could get messy as well as compromise my application.
 
linkorn12 said:
I did, by a week. If it comes down to it I can prove that he was as fault. But I don't know if it is worth pursuing because it could get messy as well as comtpromise my application.
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Thank gods for that. Especially by a week, not just a few hrs or a day.

I'm really interested to hear what an AdCom would say about this. Also, if you're both in undergrad I wonder if you could nail him on academic dishonesty. You have an email trail of sending it to him, right?

Get your undergrad school admins involved. The ensuing academic discipline will then be between this guy and AMCAS, and you shouldn't have to even deal with AMCAS directly.
 
So he copied some sentence and his conclusion was structured the same way as yours. Its not like he stole your story and made it sound like as if it was his. Unless he copied and pasted the whole paragraphs thats different
 
ownage said:
So he copied some sentence and his conclusion was structured the same way as yours. Its not like he stole your story and made it sound like as if it was his. Unless he copied and pasted the whole paragraphs thats different
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Nah its not different at all. He deliberately went out of his way to copy his friends words. This is plagiarism. I would most definitely get your school involved somehow. Talk to a dean or advisor...because if they do catch on you are seriously fcked. At least if you went to a dean first you have that on record should any shtf.

As for your friendship? This might be a bit harsh...but I think this is something that I would defriend someone on facebook over...like for real.
 
willen101383 said:
Nah its not different at all. He deliberately went out of his way to copy his friends words. This is plagiarism. I would most definitely get your school involved somehow. Talk to a dean or advisor...because if they do catch on you are seriously fcked. At least if you went to a dean first you have that on record should any shtf.

As for your friendship? This might be a bit harsh...but I think this is something that I would defriend someone on facebook over...like for real.
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What would we have ever done before Facebook, and its harsh rebuke of defriending someone to make a point.

I think this is something you lose a friend over. At least you submitted it a week in advance, and if you did apply to several common schools as each other, hopefully it's a FIFO (to use an accounting term, first-in-first-out) situation where since your primary came in first, they read that first, then read his and get deja vu. If the same thing happens with secondaries (assuming he gets one), write well, and do as other posters have said, do not show them to your friend.

Good luck.
 
Yeah that really stinks... As a warning to other pre-meds, be VERY judicious in your selection of editors. If you're going to use the SDN Readers thread, try to select people that have already been accepted to/already attend medical school.
 
Even though you can prove that he copied from you and not vice versa, people will ask you why you shared it with him in the first place if your intent was not to let him copy it. Since you had already submitted yours, you can't claim you were asking him to proofread; you really don't have a reason that will entirely clear your name. I hope things work out for you
 
Suncrusher said:
Even though you can prove that he copied from you and not vice versa, people will ask you why you shared it with him in the first place if your intent was not to let him copy it. Since you had already submitted yours, you can't claim you were asking him to proofread; you really don't have a reason that will entirely clear your name.
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This is almost as *****ic as the argument where women are blamed for "getting themselves raped" because they went out/wore a skirt/had a drink.

I've shared my PS with various people. Somehow they have all managed to make the correct ethical choice to not plagiarize my work.
 
linkorn12 said:
quick update:

it seems like if I go through my premedical office they will recommend both of us submit an addendum to our applications explaining the situation. This would obviously f him over but probably wouldn't look good for me either. He offered to submit his secondaries about 3 weeks later than mine, to minimize the chances our applications land side by side. Thoughts? Thanks for all your help and support btw
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If I were you I would talk this over with a professor who you have established a close relationship with just so that it is on record should you get screwed, and that professor could vouch for you. (not the premed office per se) I almost feel like letting med schools know is stirring up the pot..and although it is not your fault, I dont think that med schools would look very kindly on this.

As for your friend...im actually getting pissed off at this dude and I dont even know him. What a dick.

We really need a LizzyM opinion here, considering all of our ideas are from the wrong side of the table.
 
First off, he should be submitting an addendum, NOT you.

Second of all, it sounds like you have confronted him on this issue and he has tacitly agreed that he was at fault. Am I understanding this correctly?

Third, a person who is likely to plagiarize from you is likely to TELL you that they added an addendum and not actually done so. So you for to go ahead and do this uni-laterally is, well, bone-headed.

No one in the premed office is your advocate now. In this issue, you are now (or would be if you haven't asked) viewed as a source of irritation at best, and they are trying to do the minimal amount to make this go away. Be your own advocate - demand a verified addendum from him, call AMCAS and off-the-record explain the situation and see what they say.

Also: I just got through (as in hours ago) helping write the final draft of Case Western's entering class Oath of Professionalism and I can't help but to think about this "friend"'s future in medicine. From what I have been told in the past, there are correlations between uG "cheating" behavior and future medical fraud (I wish I could find the references still). Anyway, for this to go without some negative response from you personally does a disservice to us all

And finally, I agree with Dianyla that this isn't your fault. Many people, like myself, are collaborative learners and developers. To say you should not share your PS with others is not only misguided, but is ill-advised. AMCAS I think would agree with me on this - you are not at fault.

You should NOT be the one bearing the burden of correcting the problem. However, you always bear the burden of being your most important advocate.

Best of luck,

vc7777
 
OK, as I read the OP's post I was wondering if the sentences were: "I have chosen medicine because I am fascinated by the human body" and/or "After I read Mountains Beyond Mountains, I was inspired to change my career plans and apply to medical school." or "I saw the injured man lying there and I was helpless. I needed training to be able to help him and others who are suffering" or "When my grandfather died I knew what I wanted to do with my life so that other families will not go thorugh what we experienced." :smuggrin:

Those ideas or exact words have shown up dozens & dozens of times. What you think is unique to your essay may be so cliched that it did not even register as similar when read by the pre-med committee which must have seen both.

I don't see where an addendum would do anything but draw attention to the problem. Adcoms tend to use teams of readers and the likelihood that the same reader would get both applications is, IMHO, between 3 and 10%.

Relax & get to work on the secondaries.
 
LizzyM said:
OK, as I read the OP's post I was wondering if the sentences were: "I have chosen medicine because I am fascinated by the human body" and/or "After I read Mountains Beyond Mountains, I was inspired to change my career plans and apply to medical school." or "I saw the injured man lying there and I was helpless. I needed training to be able to help him and others who are suffering" or "When my grandfather died I knew what I wanted to do with my life so that other families will not go thorugh what we experienced." :smuggrin:

Those ideas or exact words have shown up dozens & dozens of times. What you think is unique to your essay may be so cliched that it did not even register as similar when read by the pre-med committee which must have seen both.

I don't see where an addendum would do anything but draw attention to the problem. Adcoms tend to use teams of readers and the likelihood that the same reader would get both applications is, IMHO, between 3 and 10%.

Relax & get to work on the secondaries.
Click to expand...


So chill out and kick your "friends" ass is basically what you are saying :)
 
Dianyla said:
This is almost as *****ic as the argument where women are blamed for "getting themselves raped" because they went out/wore a skirt/had a drink.

I've shared my PS with various people. Somehow they have all managed to make the correct ethical choice to not plagiarize my work.
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Well, you are lucky you are not in the same position as the OP. Most of us learned a long time ago not to share assignments or essays with friends. If you think you did a good job on your own assignment, and you want to give your friend an example of what to do, then you tell them that advice. You don't actually give them a copy of your assignment and simply trust them not to plagiarize. There is no way to for teachers/administrators to distinguish between the few students who share assignments in order to give their friends an "example" of what to do and the many students who share assignments in order that their friends may cheat. Almost all college students know this. You are naive.

P.S. I'm not pro-rape just because I refuted you.
 
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Suncrusher said:
Well, you are lucky you are not in the same position as the OP. Most of us learned a long time ago not to share assignments or essays with friends. If you think you did a good job on your own assignment, and you want to give your friend an example of what to do, then you tell them that advice. You don't actually give them a copy of your assignment and simply trust them not to plagiarize. There is no way to for teachers/administrators to distinguish between the few students who share assignments in order to give their friends an "example" of what to do and the many students who share assignments in order that their friends may cheat. Almost all college students know this. You are naive.

P.S. I'm not pro-rape just because I refuted you.
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this guy is right-- this is NOT analogous to the sensationalist claim the person he quoted said. Since you had submitted it, why did you share it with him? Plagiarism is also with ideas, not just straight up sentences. Furthermore, both parties are responsible in this case (unlike rape, which by definition implies only the rapist is responsible, otherwise it wouldnt be called rape)
 
You can always get back at him by replacing his toothpaste with wasabi. But in all seriousness, you need to man up and just confront him.
 
Mute98 said:
Since you had submitted it, why did you share it with him?
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Well, I mentioned it briefly before but we swapped essays the day before I submitted, which was the day our premed office strongly recommended us submit it. I thought we were going to do last minute comments to touch up the essay and then submit it. However he decided to take an extra week to rewrite his essay.

Someone earlier asked if I had confronted him about it. Yes I did, and lets just say its good for both our sakes that he not within 3,000 miles of me :eek:

Thanks for your comments, and thanks LizzyM for helping as always :)
 
i don't think the OP's move was wrong in any way. I was part of a premed support group at my school and we were encouraged to bring copies of our PS to give to the group to read and edit (of course, at the end we gave back the papers to the writer, so they could read our comments).

i'm sorry that many people also got burned when they were trying to help others. if it turned out that one of the homeless people you gave money to outside the grocery store was really a conman, it shouldn't discourage you from future acts of charity (since I saw similarities drawn to rape earlier. how is it that both parties are responsible??? plagiarism is not the natural result of showing someone else your paper when they're asking for an example. do committees always punish both people?).
 
Another reason why you should never hang out with premeds
 
seelee said:
You should go up to him and say something like:

"I just re-wrote my PS, and I am so glad I did. It turns out that AdComs really hate hearing about things like altruism, caring about others, and all that junk. They see it all the time. What they like to see is someone who is realistic. Now my PS talks about how I want to be a doctor so I can make a good salary, invest my income and become a multi-millionaire by the time I retire."
Click to expand...
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
Web MD said:
You could make an extremely powerful new personal statement in 4 words - chicks. money. power. chicks.
Click to expand...

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Times are tuff for pre-meds
 
Mute98 said:
this guy is right-- this is NOT analogous to the sensationalist claim the person he quoted said. Since you had submitted it, why did you share it with him? Plagiarism is also with ideas, not just straight up sentences. Furthermore, both parties are responsible in this case (unlike rape, which by definition implies only the rapist is responsible, otherwise it wouldnt be called rape)
Click to expand...

Like Dianyla, I strongly disagree with the idea that someone who shows their personal statement to a friend is "asking to be plagiarized from" and should share some of the blame for wrongdoing. Some people on this forum are just too willing to spread their moral judgment around as widely as possible. A personal statement is not an "assignment" like an algebra problem set or a spelling test. I showed some of my application essays to close friends; I would show my curriculum vitae to close friends if they asked. There are infinitely many blameless reasons for showing these things to close friends: you're proud of your hard work and you want a pat on the back from your friend; you want to share a piece of your personality with your friend; you're curious to see what your friend thinks and want to prompt a debate; even though you already submitted your app, you feel insecure about your essay and just want your friend to reassure you that it was ok, etc. The only mistake the OP made was trusting someone who didn't deserve to be trusted.
 
mountainhare said:
Like Dianyla, I strongly disagree with the idea that someone who shows their personal statement to a friend is "asking to be plagiarized from" and should share some of the blame for wrongdoing. Some people on this forum are just too willing to spread their moral judgment around as widely as possible. A personal statement is not an "assignment" like an algebra problem set or a spelling test. I showed some of my application essays to close friends; I would show my curriculum vitae to close friends if they asked. There are infinitely many blameless reasons for showing these things to close friends: you're proud of your hard work and you want a pat on the back from your friend; you want to share a piece of your personality with your friend; you're curious to see what your friend thinks and want to prompt a debate; even though you already submitted your app, you feel insecure about your essay and just want your friend to reassure you that it was ok, etc.
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Dianyla's post made a bit of an extreme leap in logic... I never said he was asking for it, or that it is his fault. (I realize that a person who posted after me said this, but Dianyla's post was in response to my own.) I merely said that it is an unfortunate fact that there is no way for administrators to distinguish between friends who share essays with the intention of cheating and friends who share for other reasons (in that post I acknowledged the existence of blameless reasons to share a PS with a friend, although personally I think it is naive to do so for any reason). And because of that fact, I warned him that he would be asked by administrators why he shared his personal statement. And I said that no matter what blameless reasons he gives in response to that question, there is no way for him to prove it; all anyone can see for sure is that he gave his friend a copy of his PS and his friend plagiarized. And then I said I hope it works out for him. You see? I never said he should share in the blame; only that he definitely could because there is simply no way for the administrators to discern the intentions he had when he gave his friend a copy of his PS.
mountainhare said:
The only mistake the OP made was trusting someone who didn't deserve to be trusted.
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I agree. But like I said, there is no way for administrators to know he was trusting his friend and not intentionally facilitating plagiarism. Anyways, I hope it works out for this guy.


Regardless, we're all continuing to argue about something LizzyM would probably not be noticed and so his energy would be better spent working on secondaries.
 
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Suncrusher said:
Dianyla's post made a bit of an extreme leap in logic... I never said he was asking for it, or that it is his fault. (I realize that a person who posted after me said this, but Dianyla's post was in response to my own.) I merely said that it is an unfortunate fact that there is no way for administrators to distinguish between friends who share essays with the intention of cheating and friends who share for other reasons (in that post I acknowledged the existence of blameless reasons to share a PS with a friend, although personally I think it is naive to do so for any reason). And because of that fact, I warned him that he would be asked by administrators why he shared his personal statement. And I said that no matter what blameless reasons he gives in response to that question, there is no way for him to prove it; all anyone can see for sure is that he gave his friend a copy of his PS and his friend plagiarized. And then I said I hope it works out for him. You see? I never said he should share in the blame; only that he definitely could because there is simply no way for the administrators to discern the intentions he had when he gave his friend a copy of his PS.

I agree. But like I said, there is no way for administrators to know he was trusting his friend and not intentionally facilitating plagiarism. Anyways, I hope it works out for this guy.


Regardless, we're all continuing to argue about something LizzyM would probably not be noticed and so his energy would be better spent working on secondaries.
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Ah, I see. My bad. It's hard to follow these conversations sometimes. Yeah, hopefully this all blows over for the guy.
 
linkorn12 said:
You're absolutely right. i feel like a jackass now for doing it. I only did it because he was a very close friend, the only applicant this cycle I showed, and we swapped essays literally the day before our PS was due as dictated by our premed office, so I didnt think there would be time to rewrite or anything.
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if i recall correctly, personal essay is meant to display your character with some life experiences. here you are, took a stab in the back from a close friend. i believe life experiences doesn't get much real or painful than this. you can definately write something around what just happend to you.
 
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