1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice

more pharmacy layoffs- crap!

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by Dred Pirate, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. Dred Pirate

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2014
    Messages:
    2,200
    Likes Received:
    1,628
    Status:
    Pharmacist
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Wow even mail order.
     
  4. DIPEA

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    very motivational....... now back to programming
     
  5. maria1oh

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2009
    Messages:
    562
    Likes Received:
    121
    Columbus is already a tough market because of ohio state pharmacy school pumping out new grads.
     
  6. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    People trying to break into programming in 2018 are the same people who got into pharmacy school after 2010.

    Too late.
     
  7. DIPEA

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    It is always "too late" compared to people already in the field. Which field is not "too late" to break into? MD/DDS/PA/PhD/MBA or maybe CS, every field is more or less the same uphill battle. It is not easy, but some fields are still significantly better than others, like JDs, who would struggle to even land an articling job nowdays. If pharmacy continues to go down the self-destructive path like this, it is definitely worth the time and effort to change to a better field, like CS, even if CS was not as red-hot as before, but still wayyyyy better than pharmacy.
     
    Sabril likes this.
  8. rph3664

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,423
    Likes Received:
    331
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    That happened to me more than 20 years ago. :(
     
  9. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    What I'm saying is that people who are really good at "CS" have been doing it since high school.

    All of these jokers who think they're going to learn and do just as well at >26 are fooling themselves.

    The guys that run "coding/programming bootcamps" are laughing to the bank, just like those pharm tech school places
     
  10. GypsyHummus

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,978
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    The only field you listed which isn’t saturated is MD and maybe DDS in certain locations. Everyone on the pharmacy forums that think CS is just gonna magically teleport them to the land of sunshine rainbows, lollipops and 100k+ salaries are dead wrong. People are waking up to it being a good field.

    3 best majors for college is Nursing, Engineering, and accounting. Maybe time to go back to college for some people?

    For those pharmacists laid off, if you are good looking and charismatic enough, I would try medical device sales. Those who are not, try and get into research at pharmaceutical companies.

     
    CetiAlphaFive likes this.
  11. DIPEA

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    Believe it or not, I know a chem phd who transitioned into IT in his mid-30s, and many other examples. Laughing to the bank or not, people are still going to coding bootcamps, and their graduates are landing jobs left and right. So who is really fooling themselves?

    Mind you, CS is a HUGE field. Some sub-domains are very math heavy, like simulation and modelling, whereas some are quite beginner-friendly and don't require much math, like web and app development. Some, like database management, mostly requires writing SQL queries and are not difficult to pick up at all.

    To get a job in IT, you don't have to be good at "CS". You just have to be good at a specific subset of skills you intended positions require. For example, front-end developer jobs mostly only require 3 things: html, css and javascript, and that's it. Coding bootcamps, mostly for web development, don't teach anything other than html, css, javascript and maybe a back-end language like ruby or python. They teach just enough for their graduates to get an entry-level job in web development, and that's it. I recommend you at least know some basic CS concepts before making any claims about CS in general and its job market.
     
    #10 DIPEA, Apr 14, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
  12. DIPEA

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    You obviously know little about R&D at pharmceutical companies, and career outcomes for college majors. I worked in a well-known biotech/pharma company for a year and half at their DMPK department, before heading back for pharmacy school. Anyone without at least a master degree in chem, biochem, biology or pharmaceutical science plus at least a year of industrial R&D working experience has very slim chance of getting hired for an entry-level R&D position. PharmD education has no use in preclinical research. Clinical research, maybe, but since most PharmDs suck at statistical programming and data analysis, not that many PharmDs actually work in clinical research. You would see most PharmDs heavily populate in medical/regulatory/pharmacovigilance departments.

    Nursing and accounting as best majors? It's so hilarious to read. Both are facing huge glut of their own.

    Engineering? not all engineering majors are made equal, just to mind you. EECS graduates overall have the best starting pay among all engineering domains. Environmental engineering probably has the least employability.

    Dead wrong about programming? If you go and actually talk to a few motivated coding bootcamp graduates, you will have a much better idea what I am talking about. Now you are just making blanket confirmatory bias statements without doing much investigation.
     
    #11 DIPEA, Apr 14, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2018
    BidingMyTime and Dalteparin like this.
  13. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Those with innate ability and interest are most likely to succeed in a field. I.e. Tiger Woods playing with his golf club when he was 5. But I can't help think that MOST pharmacists wren't having mock counseling sessions when they were sophomores in high school.

    I am actually thinking about a 2nd career in computer science. I don't have any direct experience in the field. How do you know coding bootcamps are a scam?
     
    Stella14 likes this.
  14. Sabril

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2017
    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    66
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    why not come back to clinical? I can't imagine it is that hard for you to land a decent position with your experience?
     
  15. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    My clinical experience is way too old. It did help me land an interview last year at a hospital.
     
  16. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    You can learn on your own. lynda.com codeacademy.com
     
  17. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    As I was planning to move to Ohio. LOL, OK, change of plans then. Cleveland might not be totally out of the picture. It's all going to pot.
     
  18. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    That's one of my next steps. I did skilcrush boot camp last year. I wish ceti alpha 5 or anyone else reading this would comment if they themselves or a friend went through coding boot camp and what they thought.
     
  19. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    > says IT, CS, and not "dev", "progranmer", "engineer", or "data scientist"

    I think you might be the one who is underinformed, m8

    I don't care if you're emotionally invested in it.


    There's a reason the bootcamp marketing is aimed at baristas and not professionals
     
    BidingMyTime likes this.
  20. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Do you think a computer science degree is a better launching point for someone wanting to be a programmer?
     
  21. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    I think that either one would require your average pharmacist to start from scratch. There are easier ways to make a transition into another field with minimal time investment. Now if you're thinking Epic Willow Pharmacist/Clinical Informaticist - 75% of it is being at the right place at the right time during an implementation.
     
  22. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    My posts are generating salt because people want an "easy" escape from pharmacy.

    What most people don't realize is that it's nothing like pharmacy school.
    It's like learning a language. It's not pass/fail.
    You can be mediocre and generate **** product. Companies will treat you accordingly, while promoting and paying the big bucks to the guys who have been doing it longer.

    Let's say you want to learn French.

    Yes, you can take crash courses.
    Yes, you can teach yourself with Rosetta Stone or online with duolingo for free.
    You're not going to be fluent until to immerse yourself for a while.


    This has literally- literally been a joke since 2005


    hulu.com/watch/824065
     
    BidingMyTime likes this.
  23. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    I would agree with you. If one thinks you going to go to coding boot camp one week and next week be hanging out with Bill Gates o Paul Allen next week you would be delusional. Its going to require effort but will that effort pay off?
     
    BidingMyTime likes this.
  24. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    If you have an idea of a platform you want to develop, and you go into one of those boot camps with that in the back of your head, I can see that being very useful.
    If you're not in need of a career change right this second, then this would be the time to maybe dive into coding/programming. Start anywhere.
     
  25. Momus

    Momus Probationary Status
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,955
    Likes Received:
    1,241
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Try searching at indeed.com

    Compare keyword :
    "pharmacist"
    Vs.
    "Software engineer"

    Let me know how many hits you get for each job postings. Please tell me coding isn't hot, right now.
     
  26. DIPEA

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    I firmly believe that if anyone who would even remotely consider an eventual switch (or escape) from traditional pharmacy (clinical or retail) to either a full-time programming-based job or a hybrid of programming and pharmacy job should start learning how to code NOW. Yes, it's not easy to learn, and yes, this might not be a suitable path for everyone, and yes, it can take a long time to perfect the craft. But if you are already having doubts about the future of pharmacy as a profession, and you don't think you are too old enough to learn or make the transition, why not just going all the way in and see what happens. If you dared to spend hundreds of thousands of $$$ on a profession that you think doesn't have a bright future, why being so frugal, either time or money, on acquiring an actual market-proven in-demand skill, which could lead to a much better career and life outcome?

    I just don't understand the mentality behind "oh, it's not as easy as someone think, so don't bother doing it" type of logic. Was getting into pharmacy school easy for you? Was getting a pharmacy job or getting licensed easy for you? Nope, I don't think anyone here dare to say that either was an absolutely easy walk-in-the-park for them. Yet, you still did them all. So why learning cs be something so different that you suddenly want it to be nice but super easy to do?
     
    #25 DIPEA, Apr 16, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
  27. gwarm01

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,156
    Likes Received:
    2,649
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Nowhere is safe in retail. The tide has been steadily rising for years and is finally starting to flood the streets. Publix was the first grocery chain that I saw switch to the 32-hour "full-time" philosophy, and it seems like this will be sweeping the nation. Reduced hours, reduced staffing via layoffs and attrition, and reduced starting pay will start to affect everyone.

    I would be trying my best to land a stable position in a financially healthy hospital system right now. The waters are still rising, but at least we managed to put some sandbags out front. You might get a few more good years before the people at the top really start to take advantage of the pharmacist oversupply. Never forget that those people, the one's making the decisions, do not understand or value your role. You're a warm body and an active license to them.
     
    GypsyHummus, Saiyo and johnpharm01 like this.
  28. Dr. Galazkiewicz

    Dr. Galazkiewicz Membership Revoked
    Removed Account on Hold

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    90
    When one becomes cognizant of what goes at the top of pyramid, it not so hard to understand why the working man is so abused. If these adrenochrome pedovores are harvesting kids for "breakthru" sadistic cravings, why not "sustained-release" corporate torturing of the masses between fixes? Really, wouldn't this explain some of the bizarre business policies promulgated from corporate? A litmus test would be would you implement a policy as a proprietor of a pharmacy? Does it make business sense. Much of the time I would scratch me head when these things came down.

    Before you dismiss this, check out who the major shareholders of your company. You'll probably find Blackrock, StateStreet, Bank of NY, Fidelity, etc.



     
  29. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    The trend is undeniable. When does the bottom hit and what it looks like is what remains to be seen. $50 k a year pharmacist 10% unemployment?
     
  30. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    [​IMG]
     
  31. Dr. Galazkiewicz

    Dr. Galazkiewicz Membership Revoked
    Removed Account on Hold

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2018
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    90
  32. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
  33. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    This is so true... I am making my first and last attempt to switch to a hospital. If that does not happen, well, anything that guarantees me loan forgiveness. Nursing. Sure, you make less but your payment on Income Driven Repayment Plans is contingent upon your earnings. So big deal if I make less. As a nurse, I would consider a transition to California and for sure, milk differential pay.
     
  34. gwarm01

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,156
    Likes Received:
    2,649
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Don't be afraid to throw some hail marys while you're at it. You never know when someone will bite, and getting those first few years of real experience is what will open a lot of doors for you. You may not get those $90/hr Bay area jobs, but plenty of nice cities will be open to you even without a residency.
     
  35. Apotheker2015

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2015
    Messages:
    848
    Likes Received:
    530
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Yup, I am learning that "Completion of pharmacy residency preferred" = we will train you. So I am getting on the MPJE wagon soon. And no Bay area for me, unless I become a nurse OR I am lucky enough to be hired as a janitor for the San Francisco Bart System.
     
  36. gwarm01

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Messages:
    2,156
    Likes Received:
    2,649
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Not only does it mean they will train you, often you'll find positions that say 1 year of residency = 1 year of experience. It just depends on the system. I'm in peds, and I find we tend to be way more relaxed on the residency requirements since pediatrics is a PGY2 and, well, someone has to staff the pharmacy. Most places I've worked have been a health mix of non-residency, adult PGY1, and the occasional PGY2. It's how I was able to get specialty training like critical care and oncology without a residency.
     
  37. BidingMyTime

    BidingMyTime Lost Shaker Of Salt
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2006
    Messages:
    3,190
    Likes Received:
    2,133
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    So very true. Nursing is very oversaturated, the reason one hears about so many unemployed nurses is they don't want to work horrible hours, and any job with halfway decent hours will have very minimal pay.

    With accounting, sure it's very easy to get a degree, but there is a high failure rate of the CPA test, and passing the CPA is what is needed to get a good accounting job.
     
  38. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    There are still available nursing jobs. There maybe a lot of licensed nurses but they must have more backbone then pharmacists because they will step out of the job market.
     
  39. CetiAlphaFive

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,594
    Likes Received:
    3,807
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Joo haff to learn computers!!
     
  40. DrVader

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2017
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    277
    CetiAlphaFive likes this.
  41. ldiot

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    854
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    You can work just 9 months out of the year and still make 50k as a teacher. I don't know why they are all on strike, they can pick up extra work over the summer and make close to what a nurse makes.
     
  42. johnpharm01

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2018
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    251
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Starting teacher salaries are actually a lot less. In Colorado the average teaching starting salary is 32 a year. In some rural areas they get paid in the 20's. Subs in my area of Colorado get paid $90 a day. They all deserve more. In addition, the job security and classroom environment is not nearly as good as it once was.
     
  43. ldiot

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,562
    Likes Received:
    854
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    Yeah and in some cities they make 90k, whats your point? I said average
     
  44. msweph

    5+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages:
    2,070
    Likes Received:
    846
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    My family member made 85K - but not until near the end of the career.

    Younger teachers I know make like 60K but they work at the district that pays well and they all want to work at. Point is - it varies

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
     
  45. lord999

    Pharmacist Faculty Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2002
    Messages:
    1,879
    Likes Received:
    1,801
    Status:
    Pharmacist, Academic Administration
    Sigh, I think I've had this conversation before, but surviving a dot com bust isn't all that easy (and it aged everyone I saw do it).

    The fields that are the good ones are always the ones that really kind of suck right now. Pharmacy sucked when I started (and it really sucked for people like @oldtimer and the It's Z generation), where you don't have much to go but up. But to enjoy the "heights", you still remember the lows, and there's some real trauma involved. Under a really high stress situation like this week in DC working on briefing books, I answered the phone in a secure area twice with "Thank you for calling Walgreens, I'm ---- the Pharmacist" as that's ingrained into my subconscious and it's been over a decade since I worked in a store (but the most stress I ever had in my career was at a 24 hour pharmacy, it's pretty disgusting that the worst the Civil Service can throw at me only reminds me of Walgreens).

    I think the growth industry right now is actually to be in some security position, so military officer, police, or IT Sec, because you can't get rid of them, they get paid pretty well with respect to qualifications, and they have the use of force with decent benefits at the end of their shorter careers. It's always kind of sucked to be a cop though, but it is always been a decent job so long as you avoid getting hurt.

    There's a growth industry for linemen (electrical infrastructure pole climbers) that seems not to be appreciated too much either.
     
    BidingMyTime likes this.
  46. awval999

    awval999 New Member
    Pharmacist 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2005
    Messages:
    1,008
    Likes Received:
    460
    Status:
    Pharmacist
    Lord999 is correct.

    In general, "society" told an entire generation -- millennials -- to go into healthcare. And we did. And now, and shortly in the future, the entire healthcare market will be saturated. It's not just pharmacy. It's NP, PA, RT, PT, OT, all of it.

    The labor market is simply supply and demand. Lots of supply halts the growth of wages. Inflation then cuts the "real" wage. Fortunately, for those that are in the market, wages are sticky. Wages are rarely cut nominally. Instead we get hours cut. Raise freezes.
     
    CetiAlphaFive and BidingMyTime like this.
  47. jblil

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2010
    Messages:
    1,174
    Likes Received:
    695
    I see frequent references to coding/programming/IT work in these threads. It's true that the schooling for it is shorter than Pharm school, but it takes longer to become really good at it - unless you have a natural ability for it. And if you do, you'd probably be attracted to those fields while still in your teens anyway.

    There is also tremendous stress in the IT field, esp. if you have a well-paying gig above 6-fig. Requirements for software are often drawn up by business folks who have no idea of the work that's behind the product (unit test, systems test, integration test, error handling, etc) and the deadlines are often absurd. I was in a couple of start-ups during the dot-com days, and went with a large software company after that bubble burst. Ten- or twelve-hr days were common, as was talking on 2 phones at the same time while answering several Messenger-type chats, and sleepless nights because of problems at work. Even though my salary now is way less than what it was in the software industry, I have basically zero stress. Was the switch worth it? For me and for the sake of my health, it's an unequivocal "yes". YMMV.

    If you plan to go into IT, I think information security (infosec) is a growing field that will *not* be outsourced. Would you trust some guy in India or China with the family jewels? However, the stress level in infosec will likely be very very high. If your company or client has been hacked, expect to work 24/7 until the threat is contained and eliminated, and the recovery process completed.
     
  48. GypsyHummus

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Messages:
    3,978
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    Status:
    Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
    MD/DO still seems to be a safe bet anywhere you go, and they not only have programs that will pay off your student loans, but also wages have been increasing. Dentistry and Podiatry too if you pick the right location (city less than 100k people).

    PAs seem to be doing just fine too, but they can easily be replaced.

     
  49. pharmafist

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2018
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Pharmacy Student
    I told everyone starting about 2009/10 this is what would happen and it would make healthcare jobs look just like the Y2K tech bust. Unfortunately we were in a recession and the government didn't have anywhere else to direct people for employment so they put the word out that it was a growth industry and students enrolled en masse and new programs of every sort popped up. On paper it looked good because Obamacare was supposed to expand exponentially and to healthcare CEOs it looked like a sure bet to make investments in personnel. Fast forward 10 years and Obamacare is being unwound and the government is in a pickle on deciding what to pay for.
     

Share This Page