More Trouble on the EM Horizon

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docB

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CMS (The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services) whence all evil comes is pushing something called “Core Measures.” Briefly this is a program to see if individual hospitals adhere to standards of care for various illnesses. That sounds great right? It’s not. There are many problems. For EPs some of the worst are the core measures for pneumonia and chest pain. For pneumonia the standard is that the pt has to get antibiotics within 4 hours or the hospital gets dinged which means the EP gets dinged. Remember that this is the time from when the patient arrived in the ED not when the EP saw the pt. This has resulted in a situation where anyone who might turn out to have pneumonia gets antibiotics immediately. Chest pains, SOBs, cough, whatever. You have to medicate now and work up later or you might fall behind. Because the figures on compliance will be published by CMS and presented as a marker of “quality” the hospitals could care less about the problems. They just want to meet the criteria to get good grades. I couldn’t have designed a better program to increase antibiotic resistance. This is unlikely to go away.
 
docB thanks for always keeping us abreast of this. Some of the junk coming out of the federal govt is ridiculous!
 
It seems like from what I've read and discussed with my former mentor (an ethicist) that EM really gets the shaft on a lot of stuff.

One example he raised is that when you have a med mal case, and the "standard of care" is discussed, often the standard that is applied is that which holds for a subspecialist, with more specific (and therefore much more narrow) training rather than a standard for EM physicians who have broader training. Juries are, almost invariably, filled with people who have NO idea what they are talking about and so physicians in general end up getting screwed.

So yes, I am deviating from the topic of the post, but does anyone have anything to add (or correct) on this?
 
I think this thing is starting to change. People have realized that it is unfair to ask a neurosurgeon how to handle increased ICP it might deviate from the EP. in the ED we are worried about the guy dying and having bad outcomes. the neurosurgeon is trying to start fixing the guy..

I think this is starting to change docB might be able to comment further.
 
Law has recognized that there is a difference in the standard of care for EPs and specialists. In some states (CA for example) there are even rules about who can testify against you as a plaintiff's expert and they require that all or some of the experts be from the same specialty. So that's good.

As for EM always getting the shaft that's part of the fishbowl effect. The ER tends to be the flash point for most of the problems in health care. Overcrowding, the uninsured, poor preventive care, drug abuse, mental illness, violence, lack of specialists and the list goes on, all are most apparent in the EDs.
 
Remember, it's only for admitted patients who are not currently on antibiotics when they present. If someone with pneumonia is serious enough to be admitted, then they are serious enough to get antibiotics within 4 hours. You should expedite your chest x-rays, evaluation times, etc. to meet this standard.

I know we are making changes at my hospital to meet this. We are not handing out antibiotics to everyone that comes in the door. If we have clinical suspicion of pneumonia, then we give antibiotics. If there is evidence on CXR, then we give antibiotics. Just having a complaint of a productive cough won't get you antibiotics.

I have a feeling we are going to see more measures in the future: pain management in a timely manner, stroke treatment rates (yea, talk about controversial), etc.
 
The sad thing is, my recollection of the literature was that antibiotics within 8 hrs was the EBM; somehow that morphed into 4 hrs.

mike


southerndoc said:
Remember, it's only for admitted patients who are not currently on antibiotics when they present. If someone with pneumonia is serious enough to be admitted, then they are serious enough to get antibiotics within 4 hours. You should expedite your chest x-rays, evaluation times, etc. to meet this standard.

I know we are making changes at my hospital to meet this. We are not handing out antibiotics to everyone that comes in the door. If we have clinical suspicion of pneumonia, then we give antibiotics. If there is evidence on CXR, then we give antibiotics. Just having a complaint of a productive cough won't get you antibiotics.

I have a feeling we are going to see more measures in the future: pain management in a timely manner, stroke treatment rates (yea, talk about controversial), etc.
 
southerndoc said:
Remember, it's only for admitted patients who are not currently on antibiotics when they present. If someone with pneumonia is serious enough to be admitted, then they are serious enough to get antibiotics within 4 hours. You should expedite your chest x-rays, evaluation times, etc. to meet this standard.
It would be nice if we could meet this but we're running 6 and 8 hours waits now because of overcrowding. Again what happened is that the government solved the wrong problem. Instead of mandating that the hospitals clear the EDs of holds they stuck it to the individual EP. The best I can hope for right now is that when a possible pneumonia patient shows up I can run out to triage and look at them and decide if they should get abx or not. Right now the hospitals are pressuring us not to miss any of the core measures so lots of people who turn out to have a cold are getting abx.
 
mikecwru said:
The sad thing is, my recollection of the literature was that antibiotics within 8 hrs was the EBM; somehow that morphed into 4 hrs.

mike
There was ONE study that showed, in nursing home patients, those that got antibiotics in 4 hours had a lower 30 day morbidity and mortality. Basically, these are your sick, chronically ill old ladies who aspirate weekly and need antibiotics.

Q
 
have any of our professional societies addressed this issue...???
 
The buzzword in all of medicine is "pay for performance". Sadly, those who control the "pay" don't know what "performances" they should be measuring. It's easy to say that people who get antibiotics quicker with pneumonia do better, or MI's should get beta blockers in 30 minutes, but we all know that the clinical pictures don't often fit this model.

It's been going on in primary care for a while. CHF admissions must have documentation of LV function before discharge. Great money maker for the person reading all those echoes! It was done 2 months ago, let's get another just to make the passing grade and get paid. There are more examples that I don't remember or care to recall from my internship.

In anesthesia, our performance measures are going to be temperature and pre-op antibiotics. Come on, that's all they could find? So when I bring a patient to the PACU with a temp of 36 (as evidenced by one study on wound infections), with antibiotics in within 30 minutes of incision, I will get paid more. Or at least not docked the medicare reimbursement. Great for the makers of Ancef and Bair Hugger blankets. But a good measure of quality of care? Probably not.
 
docB said:
Right now the hospitals are pressuring us not to miss any of the core measures so lots of people who turn out to have a cold are getting abx.

As opposed to when they see their PCP and get the best antiviral known to man, a zpack?

Take care,
Jeff

I confess, I've done it too. I'm just saying...
 
Jeff698 said:
As opposed to when they see their PCP and get the best antiviral known to man, a zpack?

Take care,
Jeff

I confess, I've done it too. I'm just saying...
Point taken. I've started doling out the Tamiflu because everyone knows that the common cold can only be cured by a prescription, it's not going to breed resistence like azithro and it expensive so lots of them won't fill it anyway. Wow, that's cynical. But there it is.
 
docB said:
Point taken. I've started doling out the Tamiflu because everyone knows that the common cold can only be cured by a prescription, it's not going to breed resistence like azithro and it expensive so lots of them won't fill it anyway. Wow, that's cynical. But there it is.


Perhaps there is a use for acupuncture after all.
 
docB said:
Point taken. I've started doling out the Tamiflu because everyone knows that the common cold can only be cured by a prescription, it's not going to breed resistence like azithro and it expensive so lots of them won't fill it anyway. Wow, that's cynical. But there it is.

Why, docB, I'm downright inspired! Why didn't I think of that?

Take care,
Jeff
 
southerndoc said:
Remember, it's only for admitted patients who are not currently on antibiotics when they present. If someone with pneumonia is serious enough to be admitted, then they are serious enough to get antibiotics within 4 hours. You should expedite your chest x-rays, evaluation times, etc. to meet this standard.

I know we are making changes at my hospital to meet this. We are not handing out antibiotics to everyone that comes in the door. If we have clinical suspicion of pneumonia, then we give antibiotics. If there is evidence on CXR, then we give antibiotics. Just having a complaint of a productive cough won't get you antibiotics.

Patients admitted from the ED that are discharged from hospital (even after an inpatient stay) with a diagnosis of pneumonia need to have had antibiotics within 4 hours of presentation - even if they have NO EVIDENCE of pneumonia on presentation, if the pt goes home 3 weeks later with dx of PNA, you (i.e., the hospital) get dinged.

Reasonable? No.
 
Apollyon said:
Patients admitted from the ED that are discharged from hospital (even after an inpatient stay) with a diagnosis of pneumonia need to have had antibiotics within 4 hours of presentation - even if they have NO EVIDENCE of pneumonia on presentation, if the pt goes home 3 weeks later with dx of PNA, you (i.e., the hospital) get dinged.

Let me get this straight....

If I admit a patient for, say, an MI. While in the hospital, she develops pneumonia. One of her D/C diagnoses will be pneumonia. The hospital would then be dinged because I didn't administer ABx for a yet-to-be-developed pneumonia?

Am I missing something here? The only way to avoid this is to universally administer ABx to all admitted patients, no?

Take care,
Jeff
 
Actually the way that my hospitals are interpreting this is only if your admitting diagnosis is pneumonia are you held to the 4 hours antibiotic rule. This usually becoms a problem with old people who come in with the weak and dizzies and happen to have an infiltrate on their CXRs. Now the chest pain core measures are based on the discharge diagnosis. If the patient you admit with syncope or weakness or gout or whatever winds up with a discharge diagnosis of chest pain, MI, ACS, USA and so on and you didn't give Beta Blockers in the ED you are screwed. So the good news is we may not have to give antibiotics to everyone but we do have to give Beta Blockers to everyone.
 
Jeff698 said:
Let me get this straight....

If I admit a patient for, say, an MI. While in the hospital, she develops pneumonia. One of her D/C diagnoses will be pneumonia. The hospital would then be dinged because I didn't administer ABx for a yet-to-be-developed pneumonia?

Am I missing something here? The only way to avoid this is to universally administer ABx to all admitted patients, no?

Take care,
Jeff

Actually, this is true, but only if the #1 (or indicated "primary") dismissal dx is pneumonia. And this happens. Think about the rule out MI you admit who ends up without a cardiogenic cause for their CP. A small effusion and WBC develop on day 2. Only dx on dismissal is...

oops.

That said, with education ( :laugh: ), the receiving services could save us by keeping pneumonia off the #1 line.

- H
 
So just an update on how bad this core measures silliness has gotten:

#1 I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI. The hospital let me know that I was expected to give beta blockers to all AMIs because we lose points on the core measures stats. Now I got pretty steamed on this on and pointed out that in the chart it was well documented that this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright. The auditors said that none of that counted because I "failed to give the indicated medication or specifically document that the (in this case lethal) medication was considered and contraindicated for a recognized and approved contraindication." Of note bradycardia is not an "approved and recognized contraindication" to beta blockers, go figure. The senior director summed up the fiasco by saying that if I had given the Lopressor it never would have come up because the guy would have died and then not been admitted and core measures only applies to admissions.

#2 There's a labor dispute at my hospitals and the union fed the local rag all the core measures stats which look bad but are crap. For example they said we're only giving ASA to 88% of our MI patients. That looks that way because up until 2 months ago the auditors weren't looking at the EMS sheets to see if the ASA was given PTA. Now we are documenting AS given PTA on the ED sheets to make up for that.

#3 We have been informed by our management group to expect reimbursement to be linked to core measures compliance within 2 years. Ug. If they're got to dock me I guess I'll have no choice but to give the Lopressor to the hypotensive bradycardic people. No biggie, I'm already giving Azithro to practically every patient for fear they might get admitted with pneumonia and didn't get abx within the magic 4 hour window.
 
I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI...this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright.

Apparently, many people are giving subtherapeutic doses of beta blockers to these patients just to meet the requirement.

What's next, a guaranteed diagnosis in 30 minutes, or the visit is free? Would you like fries with that? 🙄
 
So just an update on how bad this core measures silliness has gotten:

#1 I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI. The hospital let me know that I was expected to give beta blockers to all AMIs because we lose points on the core measures stats. Now I got pretty steamed on this on and pointed out that in the chart it was well documented that this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright. The auditors said that none of that counted because I "failed to give the indicated medication or specifically document that the (in this case lethal) medication was considered and contraindicated for a recognized and approved contraindication." Of note bradycardia is not an "approved and recognized contraindication" to beta blockers, go figure. The senior director summed up the fiasco by saying that if I had given the Lopressor it never would have come up because the guy would have died and then not been admitted and core measures only applies to admissions.

#2 There's a labor dispute at my hospitals and the union fed the local rag all the core measures stats which look bad but are crap. For example they said we're only giving ASA to 88% of our MI patients. That looks that way because up until 2 months ago the auditors weren't looking at the EMS sheets to see if the ASA was given PTA. Now we are documenting AS given PTA on the ED sheets to make up for that.

#3 We have been informed by our management group to expect reimbursement to be linked to core measures compliance within 2 years. Ug. If they're got to dock me I guess I'll have no choice but to give the Lopressor to the hypotensive bradycardic people. No biggie, I'm already giving Azithro to practically every patient for fear they might get admitted with pneumonia and didn't get abx within the magic 4 hour window.


Not that it helps, but this really pisses me off.
 
Apparently, many people are giving subtherapeutic doses of beta blockers to these patients just to meet the requirement.

What's next, a guaranteed diagnosis in 30 minutes, or the visit is free? Would you like fries with that? 🙄
Yeah, we put most of our routine chest pains on Lopressor 25 po bid which meets the core measures but has less of a tendency to stroke out the little old ladies. We've also been talking about giving some old obsolete antibiotic at the triage desk to meet the pneumonia rule. Anyone know where I can get some streptomycin?
 
Yeah, we put most of our routine chest pains on Lopressor 25 po bid which meets the core measures but has less of a tendency to stroke out the little old ladies. We've also been talking about giving some old obsolete antibiotic at the triage desk to meet the pneumonia rule. Anyone know where I can get some streptomycin?

I don't think the measure on 4 hr abx is specifically IV/PO. I've been thinking about annointing all the old people on the forehead with bacitracin.

mike
 
I don't think the measure on 4 hr abx is specifically IV/PO. I've been thinking about annointing all the old people on the forehead with bacitracin.

I can see it now... :laugh:

headon_byrdhouse.jpg
 
Well, the legal system has already caused about a bazillion people to get unnecessary CT radiation, probably causing more than one fatal cancer in the long run. If we can kill people with CT, we might as well be able to do it with Labetalol🙄 . This is of course because Washington Beauracrats know a LOT more about medicine than doctors. Everyone in Washington must be a genius.
 
So just an update on how bad this core measures silliness has gotten:

#1 I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI. The hospital let me know that I was expected to give beta blockers to all AMIs because we lose points on the core measures stats. Now I got pretty steamed on this on and pointed out that in the chart it was well documented that this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright. The auditors said that none of that counted because I "failed to give the indicated medication or specifically document that the (in this case lethal) medication was considered and contraindicated for a recognized and approved contraindication." Of note bradycardia is not an "approved and recognized contraindication" to beta blockers, go figure. The senior director summed up the fiasco by saying that if I had given the Lopressor it never would have come up because the guy would have died and then not been admitted and core measures only applies to admissions.

I truly hope you've saved this conversation away somewhere. Then, when the next patient like this dies, you can have this little gem ready in case you are sued.

Nothing would please me more than to see said director get taken apart in a courtroom.
 
I think that was sarcasm.
 
So just an update on how bad this core measures silliness has gotten:

#1 I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI. The hospital let me know that I was expected to give beta blockers to all AMIs because we lose points on the core measures stats. Now I got pretty steamed on this on and pointed out that in the chart it was well documented that this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright. The auditors said that none of that counted because I "failed to give the indicated medication or specifically document that the (in this case lethal) medication was considered and contraindicated for a recognized and approved contraindication." Of note bradycardia is not an "approved and recognized contraindication" to beta blockers, go figure. The senior director summed up the fiasco by saying that if I had given the Lopressor it never would have come up because the guy would have died and then not been admitted and core measures only applies to admissions.

#2 There's a labor dispute at my hospitals and the union fed the local rag all the core measures stats which look bad but are crap. For example they said we're only giving ASA to 88% of our MI patients. That looks that way because up until 2 months ago the auditors weren't looking at the EMS sheets to see if the ASA was given PTA. Now we are documenting AS given PTA on the ED sheets to make up for that.

#3 We have been informed by our management group to expect reimbursement to be linked to core measures compliance within 2 years. Ug. If they're got to dock me I guess I'll have no choice but to give the Lopressor to the hypotensive bradycardic people. No biggie, I'm already giving Azithro to practically every patient for fear they might get admitted with pneumonia and didn't get abx within the magic 4 hour window.

As a hospital pharmacist, one of my jobs, occasionally, is review charts to monitor & get documentation for just some of these things so the hospital doesn't get dinged. (I hate this part of my job!) In my small personal experience, the snf & mental health units get dinged far more than the ed, but that is for a diffferent forum.

The auditors may be well trained or not so well trained...sometimes, they're nurses & sometimes they're medical records folks. But..often - they don't know what they're looking for. What appeared to be a clear progress note when you wrote it is not so clear when someone is looking at it with the intent to decrease your reimbursment. So...we have to document on stuff, just like what you've noted above so later it doesn't come back to bite us.

JCAHO, IMO is the worst - they generate the most absurd notions of what will influence pt outcomes. However...they control the accreditation & therefore the money.

But...your own group can be proactive, if it affects your reimbursement. I know two physician groups - one an electrophysiology & another an ED group who employs someone to do their own independent audits so they have documentation to protect reimbursement. (Of note..the electrophysiology group also does drug studies, so this person is employed full time with all sorts of QA issues - some dealing with FDA compliance).

As for drug choices....ask your dop to keep Keflin - old, old, drug - everthing's resistant to it, its cheap & ususally won't harm....but won't do any good to a real pneumonia pt.

Or...there's one dose of erythromycin - it also isn't very effective as one dose, cheap, very little incidence of allergic reaction & if they haven't eaten....it might actually give them something to complain about...altho that might complicate your situation a bit🙁 .

Oddly enough....we do have streptomycin - we keep it very well hiddend for resistant TB - now if we let you have it...the pharmacy would get dinged!!!🙂

Good luck & who let out confidential info anyway?????
 
So just an update on how bad this core measures silliness has gotten:

#1 I got dinged on a patient for not giving beta blockers to an acute MI. The hospital let me know that I was expected to give beta blockers to all AMIs because we lose points on the core measures stats. Now I got pretty steamed on this on and pointed out that in the chart it was well documented that this particular patient was a hypotensive, bradycardic post code in the field patient who was in the ED for 22 minutes before he went to cath. Beta blockers would have killed this patient outright. The auditors said that none of that counted because I "failed to give the indicated medication or specifically document that the (in this case lethal) medication was considered and contraindicated for a recognized and approved contraindication." Of note bradycardia is not an "approved and recognized contraindication" to beta blockers, go figure. The senior director summed up the fiasco by saying that if I had given the Lopressor it never would have come up because the guy would have died and then not been admitted and core measures only applies to admissions.

#2 There's a labor dispute at my hospitals and the union fed the local rag all the core measures stats which look bad but are crap. For example they said we're only giving ASA to 88% of our MI patients. That looks that way because up until 2 months ago the auditors weren't looking at the EMS sheets to see if the ASA was given PTA. Now we are documenting AS given PTA on the ED sheets to make up for that.

#3 We have been informed by our management group to expect reimbursement to be linked to core measures compliance within 2 years. Ug. If they're got to dock me I guess I'll have no choice but to give the Lopressor to the hypotensive bradycardic people. No biggie, I'm already giving Azithro to practically every patient for fear they might get admitted with pneumonia and didn't get abx within the magic 4 hour window.

I don't understand why the physician should have to specifically list the CI's for beta blocker admin. The "auditors" should be expected to know the CI's. I'll bet they would be quick to cite all the specific reasons why you shouldn't have given a beta blocker if you had prescribed one and the pt. keeled over.

Secondly, the ASA fiasco is most likely a result of poor nursing documentation, not EP error. The initial nursing assessment should include all EMS and home medication administrations PTA. Plenty of our CP pts. arrive at the ED via POV having already taken their ASA. It's still got to be documented, though.
 
Yeah, we put most of our routine chest pains on Lopressor 25 po bid which meets the core measures but has less of a tendency to stroke out the little old ladies. We've also been talking about giving some old obsolete antibiotic at the triage desk to meet the pneumonia rule. Anyone know where I can get some streptomycin?

Careful with the obsolete antibiotics as you will also get dinged if you do not use "appropriate antibiotics as per published guidelines". That is interpreted as Levaquin by most of our ED providers (which is probably at least part of why we have quinolone resistant E.coli---so we're keeping CMS happy and making it more likely that our medicare patients will die from sepsis-urinary source (Don't you dare write urosepsis😱--yeah I've learned) with MDR E.coli but I digress).
 
Just curious, what happens to you personally if you don't comply? I understand the hospital doesn't get full reimbursement but how does the hospital punish you as an individual?
So, then could a whole group of ED docs agree to boycott this and leave it up to the hospitals to start really standing up for what's right?
 
Just curious, what happens to you personally if you don't comply? I understand the hospital doesn't get full reimbursement but how does the hospital punish you as an individual?
So, then could a whole group of ED docs agree to boycott this and leave it up to the hospitals to start really standing up for what's right?

No tickee, no washee! You don't get paid. CMS ha been challenged on this time and time again. At best a large institution might be able to get away with one specific omission (Mayo argued successfully against blood cultures on all CAP admits) but most of these "guidelines" must be met...

- H
 
One example he raised is that when you have a med mal case, and the "standard of care" is discussed, often the standard that is applied is that which holds for a subspecialist, with more specific (and therefore much more narrow) training rather than a standard for EM physicians who have broader training.

So yes, I am deviating from the topic of the post, but does anyone have anything to add (or correct) on this?


I do have something to correct about this. IN 99% of states, in order to bring a malpractice suit you have to have an MD IN THAT FIELD testify against you. IN other words, an IM doc cant testify against an ED doc.

HOWEVER, you are partially right about the "standard of care." The truth is that although the law says you have to violate a "standard" in reality standards have nothing to do with anything.

If you can find a single doc willing to testify against a defendant, you've got a viable malpractice case. Since when are "standards" set by one BS opinion? The law in theory has standards but in legal practice standards have absolutely nothing to do with med mal.
 
Just curious, what happens to you personally if you don't comply? I understand the hospital doesn't get full reimbursement but how does the hospital punish you as an individual?
So, then could a whole group of ED docs agree to boycott this and leave it up to the hospitals to start really standing up for what's right?
And when you get right down to it if you cause grief for the hospital you are putting your group's contract at risk which is the cardinal sin of EM. I can assure you that anyone who endangers the contract finds themselves seeking greener pastures elsewhere quickly.
 
Why can't you write urosepsis?

Because under current guidelines urosepsis gets coded as UTI and therefore probably a level 3 at best. But sepsis with urinary source gets a sepsis code and level 5 or critical care.
 
Because under current guidelines urosepsis gets coded as UTI and therefore probably a level 3 at best. But sepsis with urinary source gets a sepsis code and level 5 or critical care.

Well, that would work. But even a non-septic UTI can become a higher-level encounter if you code based on presenting symptoms and related co-morbidities (e.g., abdominal or pelvic pain, hematuria, mental status changes, HTN, CAD, etc.) Sure, it may only turn out to be simple cystitis, but you still have to rule out other serious pathology, especially in your setting. Obviously, this applies more to older adults than young women for whom the diagnosis is usually straightforward.

Sorry for going off on a tangent. 😉
 
Why can't you write urosepsis?

As MudPhud correctly pointed out in DRG land urosepsis=simple UTI. Not only relevant from a physician charges standpoint but the admitting diagnosis is what determines the DRG so your hospital gets burned quite badly if your uroseptic patient requires an ICU admission/CVL/pressors etc. and they get paid the UTI DRG.
 
As MudPhud correctly pointed out in DRG land urosepsis=simple UTI. Not only relevant from a physician charges standpoint but the admitting diagnosis is what determines the DRG so your hospital gets burned quite badly if your uroseptic patient requires an ICU admission/CVL/pressors etc. and they get paid the UTI DRG.
See, we're supposed to have one of the best billing companies there is and they NEVER tell us this stuff. Thanks.
 
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