most competitive DO schools?

[spicedmanna]

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Is it your position then that nobody in your osteopathic med class failed to get an MD acceptance and just fell backwards into a DO program? Because I have a feeling that this is pretty common among DO programs. Please, please correct me if I am wrong (but only using actual verifiable stats, not "well my adviser says...").

Of course these folks exist. 🙄 I can't say what portion of the total population of matriculants they make up, however. I can't find any data on that. I think motivation can be difficult to assess.

I think a lot of DO students are like are OP... kinda clueless about the DO until they realize that they might not make it into an MD program. This is his/her first step and there will be many more along the way to his/her route to a DO acceptance letter (should that happen).

I agree that this happens.

An [sic] just for the record, were there a polygraph hooked up to DO applicants when asked "Why D.O.?" many would answer "I couldn't get into an MD program."

That's conjecture and hypothetical. Until you actually do this, it's arguable.

I'm not bashing DOs... but we all know this is the truth, whether it hurts or not. I will have no qualms in my future career working with DOs, and I will treat them as equal to my MD counterparts. But the truth is the truth -- DO schools are WAY easier to get into than MD schools, so just let it go.

Well, you may not be directly bashing DO's, but there may be a subtle tone of condescendence in your post. That's fine. I suspect that this thought pattern is not at all unique. I won't hold it against you.

I appreciate your thoughtfulness, however, I don't need your "charity," or your promise to treat me as an equal. I know that I am at least equal and all of the states acknowledge that as well. 🙄

As to your assertion of osteopathic medical schools being easier to get into than allopathic medical school, there is some truth to that. If you compare just average MCAT/GPA of all osteopathic and all allopathic matriculants, then yes, allopathic matriculants have higher statistics. However, also keep in mind that allopathic medical schools had 30,853 more applicants (a total of 39,108 for 2006) than osteopathic medical schools (8255, for the 2005-6 entering class) [1, 2]. It is possible that having more applicants can drive up average statistics. That said, I should also point out that the ratio of matriculant to applicant is about the same for osteopathic and allopathic medical schools, 45.34% (3743 matriculants for the 2005-6 entering class) and 44.42% (17,370 matriculants for 2006) respectively [1, 2]. Make of this what you will, but they both seem highly competitive, with less than half of applicants matriculating.

Lastly, while MCAT and GPA are certainly crucial to the admissions process, they are certainly not the end-all in the process. Eventually, all schools look at the entire file. There are many more factors that go into the process than just those numbers and many factors that go into deciding whether an applicant can make a successful medical student and someday a successful physician. I'm not an adcomm member, but that's what I suspect.

Anyway, we are just about getting to the place where this becomes a tired argument, so I'm going to stop now. Suffice it to say that we may have disagreements.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Dear Spicedmama,
I would like to sincerly thank you for saying everything I wanted to in a civilized manner; saving me from bashing my keyboard while foaming at the mouth. I didn't want to start a huge war, or say the same thing a thousand times over, but the way in which the quoted poster was giving his 'opinion' was very, VERY condescending. I don't want to sit here and say I was right and he was wrong (or vice versa), but thank you for displaying correct facts, and the confidence you have for the DO degree. I hope I didn't cause too much of a fuss, but thank you for that post (it really explained everything I was trying to express).😀🙂😍

 

[fabu1ous]

Is it your position then that nobody in your osteopathic med class failed to get an MD acceptance and just fell backwards into a DO program? Because I have a feeling that this is pretty common among DO programs. Please, please correct me if I am wrong (but only using actual verifiable stats, not "well my adviser says...").

...hmmm, and not only is this fact able to be verifiable, you know, that they "fall backwards into a DO program", but I believe as residents they're now restricted to certain parts of the body...

ask JPHazel, they'll only allow him to do surgery on the hiney parts while his MD counterparts will be free to operate on the whole person-- oh! and yeah, he'll only be making half the salary, too, when finished...

 

[Vizsla]

Is it your position then that nobody in your osteopathic med class failed to get an MD acceptance and just fell backwards into a DO program? Because I have a feeling that this is pretty common among DO programs. Please, please correct me if I am wrong (but only using actual verifiable stats, not "well my adviser says...").

I think a lot of DO students are like are OP... kinda clueless about the DO until they realize that they might not make it into an MD program. This is his/her first step and there will be many more along the way to his/her route to a DO acceptance letter (should that happen).

An just for the record, were there a polygraph hooked up to DO applicants when asked "Why D.O.?" many would answer "I couldn't get into an MD program."

I'm not bashing DOs... but we all know this is the truth, whether it hurts or not. I will have no qualms in my future career working with DOs, and I will treat them as equal to my MD counterparts. But the truth is the truth -- DO schools are WAY easier to get into than MD schools, so just let it go.

if this is ur opinon, thats perfectly fine..ure entitled to it of course. but if ure looking for a DO student who agreess with it and "accepts the truth" that u laid out in ur post, ure gonna be waiting a long time. yes, of course there are a good number of DO students who matriculated after not being able to gain an MD acceptance..but who cares..they still show a keen interest/dedication to the practice of medicine..thats all that really matters

 

[Dr__Robert]

yes, of course there are a good number of DO students who matriculated after not being able to gain an MD acceptance..but who cares..they still show a keen interest/dedication to the practice of medicine..thats all that really matters

Yes, I totally agree. My problem is not with the DO degree (I feel I've been very clear on this matter, but nobody here seems to get it...) my problem lies with the SDNers who have bashed, ruthlessly, the poor OP who simply was trying to figure out how hard some DO schools are to gain admission to (admittedly in a semi-******* way). My further problem is with any DO SDNer who decides to make a war out of any "MD v. DO" thread.

I also love how I called condescending when a fellow poster quotes a typo of mine with the "[sic]." Yeah... I'm the one who has the problem.

And please... stop calling these things my "opinions." I have stated verifiable facts (DO as a second choice to MD by many, DO vs. MD stats, etc.)... facts that people on here just don't like.

 

[UIC Killa]

Yes, I totally agree. My problem is not with the DO degree (I feel I've been very clear on this matter, but nobody here seems to get it...) my problem lies with the SDNers who have bashed, ruthlessly, the poor OP who simply was trying to figure out how hard some DO schools are to gain admission to (admittedly in a semi-******* way). My further problem is with any DO SDNer who decides to make a war out of any "MD v. DO" thread.

I also love how I called condescending when a fellow poster quotes a typo of mine with the "[sic]." Yeah... I'm the one who has the problem.

And please... stop calling these things my "opinions." I have stated verifiable facts (DO as a second choice to MD by many, DO vs. MD stats, etc.)... facts that people on here just don't like.

I haven't read a good MD/DO thread in while. Many people tend to generalize people's choice in these types of debate. Either a student choose to go DO because he couldnt get MD or they choose DO because they felt it's philosophy was the right fit..etc. However, I think a majority of the students actually fall in the between category (me including). Many of us dont really care as much about the initials of the degree but care more about other factors such as location, facilities, school comfort etc. The main factor in my decision was location (midwest) and second was "comfort" with school, because eventually it's how well you do that determines your career. I would rather attend a school I am happy at (MD or DO) then just any MD school in which I wont be. So for me, my top two schools were fairly competitive MD schools, my third choice was a DO and my fourth school was an MD. I didnt get into the top 2 MD so I went to the DO school and withdrew from the 4th school. So, as you can see it was not a clear cut, MD or DO type of situation for me. I think, personally that many students are in this similar situation and not just complete MD rejects or gung-ho DO applicants. The fact that both paths allow you to become a legal physician is what is important.

 

[gasapple]

BTW - where is Dr. Hazleton? ...*paging Dr. Hazelton*
"There's a person in need of consult in the pre-med lobby" *paging Dr. Hazelton*

As always, nice, tempered response, SpicedManna.

Everyone should strive, as Spiced does, to rise above the "premie" conjecture. 👍

...hmmm, and not only is this fact able to be verifiable, you know, that they "fall backwards into a DO program", but I believe as residents they're now restricted to certain parts of the body...

ask JPHazel, they'll only allow him to do surgery on the hiney parts while his MD counterparts will be free to operate on the whole person-- oh! and yeah, he'll only be making half the salary, too, when finished...

 

[gasapple]

I haven't read a good MD/DO thread in while. Many people tend to generalize people's choice in these types of debate. Either a student choose to go DO because he couldnt get MD or they choose DO because they felt it's philosophy was the right fit..etc. However, I think a majority of the students actually fall in the between category (me including). Many of us dont really care as much about the initials of the degree but care more about other factors such as location, facilities, school comfort etc. The main factor in my decision was location (midwest) and second was "comfort" with school, because eventually it's how well you do that determines your career. I would rather attend a school I am happy at (MD or DO) then just any MD school in which I wont be. So for me, my top two schools were fairly competitive MD schools, my third choice was a DO and my fourth school was an MD. I didnt get into the top 2 MD so I went to the DO school and withdrew from the 4th school. So, as you can see it was not a clear cut, MD or DO type of situation for me. I think, personally that many students are in this similar situation and not just complete MD rejects or gung-ho DO applicants. The fact that both paths allow you to become a legal physician is what is important.

YES, INDEED!👍

 

[natsayshi]

I haven't read a good MD/DO thread in while. Many people tend to generalize people's choice in these types of debate. Either a student choose to go DO because he couldnt get MD or they choose DO because they felt it's philosophy was the right fit..etc. However, I think a majority of the students actually fall in the between category (me including). Many of us dont really care as much about the initials of the degree but care more about other factors such as location, facilities, school comfort etc. The main factor in my decision was location (midwest) and second was "comfort" with school, because eventually it's how well you do that determines your career. I would rather attend a school I am happy at (MD or DO) then just any MD school in which I wont be. So for me, my top two schools were fairly competitive MD schools, my third choice was a DO and my fourth school was an MD. I didnt get into the top 2 MD so I went to the DO school and withdrew from the 4th school. So, as you can see it was not a clear cut, MD or DO type of situation for me. I think, personally that many students are in this similar situation and not just complete MD rejects or gung-ho DO applicants. The fact that both paths allow you to become a legal physician is what is important.

I was accepted at more than one M.D. school and decided on D.O. because of the location. That being able to live close to my family and the genuine concern from the faculty during my interview as a pre-med vs. the Allopathic schools.

 

[exmike]

Hah! You laugh but Temple medical is a backup for me to PCOM!
No joke. Actually, lol, it's not even a backup. I was just telling a buddy, you couldn't get me to go to an allopath school, I just think a solid musculoskeletal foundation is too important to me. Harvard students tend to agree on that point, too. I don't think they're ready to jump ship, mind you, but check this out:

Title: Musculoskeletal medicine: an assessment of the attitudes and knowledge of medical students at Harvard Medical School.
Author(s): Day CS; Yeh AC; Franko O; Ramirez M; Krupat E
Author's Address: Musculoskeletal Curriculum, Harvard Medical School, Orthopedic Hand Surgery, Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center, Boston, Massachusetts 02215, USA. [email protected]
Source: Academic Medicine: Journal Of The Association Of American Medical Colleges [Acad Med] 2007 May; Vol. 82 (5), pp. 452-7.
Publication Type: Journal Article
Language: English
Journal Information: Country of Publication: United States NLM ID: 8904605 Publication Model: Print Cited Medium: Print ISSN: 1040-2446 (Print) Subsets: Core Clinical (AIM); MEDLINE
MeSH Terms: Self-Evaluation Programs*
Curriculum/*standards
Education, Medical, Undergraduate/*standards
Musculoskeletal Diseases/*diagnosis
Orthopedics/*education
Students, Medical/*psychology
Attitude; Boston; Cross-Sectional Studies; Data Collection; Diagnosis, Differential; Educational Measurement; Humans; Musculoskeletal Diseases/physiopathology; Physical Examination; Program Evaluation; Questionnaires; Schools, Medical
Abstract: PURPOSE: To assess medical students' knowledge and clinical confidence in musculoskeletal medicine as well as their attitudes toward the education they receive in this specialty. METHOD: A cross-sectional survey of students in all four years of Harvard Medical School was conducted during the 2005-2006 academic year. Participants were asked to fill out a 30-question survey and a nationally validated basic competency exam in musculoskeletal medicine. RESULTS: The response rate was 74% (449/608). Medical students rated musculoskeletal education to be of major importance (3.8/5) but rated the amount of curriculum time spent on musculoskeletal medicine as poor (2.1/5). Third-year students felt a low to adequate level of confidence in performing a musculoskeletal physical examination (2.7/5) and failed to demonstrate cognitive mastery in musculoskeletal medicine (passing rate on competency exam: 7%), whereas fourth-year students reported a similar level of confidence (2.7/5) and exhibited a higher passing rate (26%). Increasing exposure to the subject by taking clinical electives resulted in greater clinical confidence and enhanced performance on the exam (P < .001). Students' feedback suggested that musculoskeletal education can be better integrated into the preclinical curriculum, more time should be spent in the field, and more focus should be placed on common clinical conditions. CONCLUSIONS: These findings, which are consistent with those from other schools, suggest that medical students do not feel adequately prepared in musculoskeletal medicine and lack both clinical confidence and cognitive mastery in the field. Implementing a four-year integrated musculoskeletal curriculum is one way that medical schools can address this concern.
Entry Date(s): Date Created: 20070425 Date Completed: 20070606
Update Code: 20070607
PMID:

this is pointless. how many med school graduates feel that they have a mastery of the eye - should we then have four year of ophthalmology in med school? Considering orthopods spend 5 years mastering musculoskeletal, i dont see how they expect any med student to feel "confident" of "cognitive mastery. med school isnt supposed to make you the master of anything. it is supposed to give you the tools to learn and adapt quickly to whatever field you so choose. "Musculoskeletal" is just as arbitrary as "neurological" or "oncological". There just isnt enough time to teach everything. i think we've all accepted that.

 

[Bleurberry]

this is pointless. how many med school graduates feel that they have a mastery of the eye - should we then have four year of ophthalmology in med school?

This is pointless to YOU, my dear Watson. To... you.

 

[Dr JPH]

BTW - where is Dr. Hazleton? ...*paging Dr. Hazelton*
"There's a person in need of consult in the pre-med lobby" *paging Dr. Hazelton*

You guys are doing just fine.

No need for me to stick my foot into every MD v DO argument that goes on here. I did that for 6 years.

At some point you will realize that the perceptions of a premed about the flavor of your medical degree matters not.

 

[Empi]

I'm premed now, but I am in the rather unusual position of having a daughter who is M4 in an Osteopathic school. There are two MD friends of the family who suggested that she consider an Osteopathic school because they were impressed with the newly graduated DO's going into their residency.

According to these experienced MD's the DO grads were consistantly the better prepared residents.

She only applied to DO school and is very pleased with the quality of her education.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I'm premed now, but I am in the rather unusual position of having a daughter who is M4 in an Osteopathic school. There are two MD friends of the family who suggested that she consider an Osteopathic school because they were impressed with the newly graduated DO's going into their residency.

According to these experienced MD's the DO grads were consistantly the better prepared residents.

She only applied to DO school and is very pleased with the quality of her education.

That's awesome. So you are a premed right now?? Are you planning on applying to DO and MD schools, or just strictly DO err what? Either way though, it seems like you will be a very non traditional applicant which could give you a good angle for applying. Good luck, and stick around the forums for a lot of good information along your way.

 

[GQMO16]

So going off of the original topic....what exactly are the "best" DO schools out there??? Like I'm not trying to put any particular school down, but is it harder to get into any particular schools bc they have more prestige associated with their programs??? Just curious

 

[Dr JPH]

So going off of the original topic....what exactly are the "best" DO schools out there??? Like I'm not trying to put any particular school down, but is it harder to get into any particular schools bc they have more prestige associated with their programs??? Just curious

I think its generally regarded that PCOM is the top osteopathic school in the country.

 

[spicedmanna]

So going off of the original topic....what exactly are the "best" DO schools out there??? Like I'm not trying to put any particular school down, but is it harder to get into any particular schools bc they have more prestige associated with their programs??? Just curious

Don't confuse admissions practices with the quality of a given program; they are not necessary related. IMHO, the so-called "prestige" of a given program isn't as important as fit. You should consider several factors in choosing which schools to apply to and attend. Again, IMHO, the best programs are the ones that fit your own criteria well and prepare you well for residency. Obviously this can vary depending on the individual we are talking about. What are you looking for specifically? That sort of information is necessary in order to figure out which schools might fit you the best.

 

[GQMO16]

Don't confuse admissions practices with the quality of a given program; they are not necessary related. IMHO, the so-called "prestige" of a given program isn't as important as fit. You should consider several factors in choosing which schools to apply to and attend. Again, IMHO, the best programs are the ones that fit your own criteria well and prepare you well for residency. Obviously this can vary depending on the individual we are talking about. What are you looking for specifically? That sort of information is necessary in order to figure out which schools might fit you the best.

I havent really thougth into it fully, but I guess location is a huge factor of course. I would not choose a school simply based on prestige or anythign liek that. But at the same time, if I had the choice bw a school that was very well established and one that was not as well established and all other factors being the same, I'd prolly choose the former over hte latter. In addition, schools that have better residency matches are important as well other then factors that are based on personal preference.

 

[Dr JPH]

I havent really thougth into it fully, but I guess location is a huge factor of course. I would not choose a school simply based on prestige or anythign liek that. But at the same time, if I had the choice bw a school that was very well established and one that was not as well established and all other factors being the same, I'd prolly choose the former over hte latter.

Probably a smart decision.

 

[arsenewenger]

I think its generally regarded that PCOM is the top osteopathic school in the country.[/quote]
Speak for your self.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I think its generally regarded that PCOM is the top osteopathic school in the country.

Oh, it is?

 

[medhacker]

If you do a search online and offline you will most likely conclude PCOM is one of the best regarded DO schools.

 

[Taus]

I'd say one of the best...but I don't know nearly enough to compare it to the other schools that are very highly regarded....apparently I'm not as bold as JP...ha

 

[Dr JPH]

I think its generally regarded that PCOM is the top osteopathic school in the country.

Speak for your self.

Actually, I speak on behalf of the medical community as a whole.

Oh, it is?

Dont act like youre surprised Buckeye.

 

[Toohotinvegas33]

I think MSUCOM and OUCOM would give PCOM a run for its money. It would be close though.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Actually, I speak on behalf of the medical community as a whole.



Dont act like youre surprised Buckeye.

You know OSUCOM > all dude.

 

[Dr JPH]

You know OSUCOM > all dude.

OSUCOM is better than most, no argument there.

The best? Im not so sure about that.

 

[abeytt03]

The word "competitive"does not apply to D.O schools. The bible says ask and it shall be given. In this case, apply (even without a D.O letter) and you shall be accepted.

I somewhat agree. While they are competitive to an extent, it is profoundly relative. The competition is not nearly as formidable as MD.

Also, I suspect the more competitive DO programs will depend on location.

 

[Dr JPH]

The competition is not nearly as formidable as MD.

A bit more than 4,000 applications for ~250 spots

Seems competitive to me.

 

[bth7]

I somewhat agree. While they are competitive to an extent, it is profoundly relative. The competition is not nearly as formidable as MD. Also, I suspect the more competitive DO programs will depend on location.

From the President of the Association of American Medical Colleges, the body that accredits all U.S. MD schools:

After more than a century of often bitterly contentious relationships between the osteopathic and allopathic medical professions, we now find ourselves living at a time when osteopathic and allopathic graduates are both sought after by many of the same residency programs; are in most instances both licensed by the same licensing boards; are both privileged by many of the same hospitals; and are found in appreciable numbers on the faculties of each other's medical schools.
Jordan J. Cohen, M.D.; AAMC President

Other interesting statements about allopathic medicine: http://www.amsa.org/about/ppp/osteo.cfm

Maybe you don't know what you are talking about. Maybe what you are saying was true 10 or even 5 years ago, but its not true now.

 

[Doc2007]

From the President of the Association of American Medical Colleges, the body that accredits all U.S. MD schools:



Other interesting statements about allopathic medicine: http://www.amsa.org/about/ppp/osteo.cfm

Maybe you don't know what you are talking about. Maybe what you are saying was true 10 or even 5 years ago, but its not true now.

You know what he is going to say. My mom and dad is a doctor and a lawyer and I know it better.

 

[bth7]

You know what he is going to say. My mom and dad is a doctor and a lawyer and I know it better.

For sure. I guess when you just got accepted to NYU you suddenly know more than everyone and need to go around reminding everyone of that fact.

 

[arsenewenger]

A bit more than 4,000 applications for ~250 spots

Seems competitive to me.

With all due respect, I think you are losing it.

 

[DocBR]

I'd say that my "hypothetical score" was more than fair considering my range is 30-36 on AAMCs 3-10. That's a pretty large sample size.

That really means very little. Ask your premed advisor, or test prep company - AAMC released practice exams are easier than the real thing. A better judge of your abilities would be Exam Krackers practice tests.

 

[medstud2ndyr]

I think its generally regarded that PCOM is the top osteopathic school in the country.

Um.. I have never heard this. The top DO programs (from what I've heard) are the ones that are affiliated w/ an undergrad University.

1. TCOM
2. OSUCOM
3. KCUMB

 

[Empi]

That's awesome. So you are a premed right now?? Are you planning on applying to DO and MD schools, or just strictly DO err what? Either way though, it seems like you will be a very non traditional applicant which could give you a good angle for applying. Good luck, and stick around the forums for a lot of good information along your way.

I'm premed undergrad right now. I'm a Junior with 85 credits.

I really prefer DO school. My daughter goes to PCOM. I went to the DO program open house for myself and chit-chatted with the President of the school. My dh asked him if there had ever been a mother that followed in her daughter's footsteps (I turned red when he asked that question,) he said, "no," but was enthuthiastic about seeing someone break new ground, so to speak. In general, I was impressed with PCOM's program and I also really appreciated the, "vibe," I felt when visiting the place. My philosophy is toward complementary medicine and seeing the body as wholistic instead of focusing on disease. I am definitely a good fit for Osteopathy.

I live in the Philly area and am not willing to relocate my family so I would likely apply to Jefferson, Drexel, and UPenn as well, but PCOM is, by far, my first choice.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Um.. I have never heard this. The top DO programs (from what I've heard) are the ones that are affiliated w/ an undergrad University.

1. TCOM
2. OSUCOM
3. KCUMB

Who cares what you've heard. How you do wherever you go is 100% on you.

 

[MaximusD]

A bit more than 4,000 applications for ~250 spots

Seems competitive to me.

5800 this year, actually... might have been 5300 i can't find my notes from the president's speech at our financial aid workshop...

8000 total between PCOM and PCOM-Ga

 

[Dr JPH]

Um.. I have never heard this. The top DO programs (from what I've heard) are the ones that are affiliated w/ an undergrad University.

1. TCOM
2. OSUCOM
3. KCUMB

You have been mislead young fellow.

 

[arsenewenger]

You have been mislead young fellow.

hmm... mislead ought to be misled

 

[Dr JPH]

hmm... mislead ought to be misled

Oh boy, you got me. How will I show up to work tomorrow and function as a doctor?

Well, I will always have the comfort in knowing that I didnt get stuck at UMDNJ.

😀

 

[medstud2ndyr]

You have been mislead young fellow.

I'm not a fellow.. I'm a 2nd yr med student.. I'll be a fellow after I do my residency & decide to specialize.. 😀

TCOM is the gem of DO schools though.

 

[abeytt03]

For sure. I guess when you just got accepted to NYU you suddenly know more than everyone and need to go around reminding everyone of that fact.

I got accepted to NYU in February, among others. I don't feel I know more than EVERYONE.
You sound bitter...Perhaps a good (allopathic) psychiatrist can help you confront certain insecurities. (Same for you JP)

 

[Taus]

the maturity level in here is impressive...

 

[Dr JPH]

the maturity level in here is impressive...

Your mom is impressive. 😉


(you surviving your rotations?)

 

[abeytt03]

Actually, I speak on behalf of the medical community as a whole.

Who makes such a statement?!? That's a crazy thing to say. Do you think you were appointed or something?

 

[arsenewenger]

Oh boy, you got me. How will I show up to work tomorrow and function as a doctor?

Well, I will always have the comfort in knowing that I didnt get stuck at UMDNJ.

😀

Maybe you should transfer to an Allo residency program .

 

[Dr JPH]

Maybe you should transfer to an Allo residency program .

I'm OK with AOA/ACGME. 🙂

 

[Dr JPH]

Who makes such a statement?!? That's a crazy thing to say. Do you think you were appointed or something?

I wouldnt say appointed...I was basically asked several times before I agreed.

 

[arsenewenger]

Actually, I speak on behalf of the medical community as a whole.

Who makes such a statement?!? That's a crazy thing to say. Do you think you were appointed or something?

A chance to cut, according to the apostle of St JP hazelton, is a chance to brag.