MPH or MSW "for fun" vs waiting to apply

[medicabruja]

I just graduated with my BSc in psych (3.8 major, 3.65 overall), two minors, and a concentration. I have a few years in two different research labs (one was lots of data entry, the other was coordinating, testing participants, and currently writing papers; nothing published yet), 6+ months as a neuropsych extern at a private clinic doing more advanced testing, and 300 hours of clinical experience in substance abuse counseling (I'm pre-licensure now until I get a job in that field, which I might not do).

I am very set on a PhD in clinical psych, ideally with a community or mental health policy focus. I also want to have other learning experiences that I may be unable to get in such a program, such as getting an MPH (with a psych epi focus if possible). I am also considering an MSW mainly because I would enjoy the work (I know its a different field and wouldn't necessarily be useful for applying to PhD programs). I have an internship site lined up and would be very excited to do that work if only for a few short years (I don't think I could be a social worker for very long, even with my ideal population: homeless), however I love the mindset that most MSW students I have worked with embody, and know that I would really enjoy the program. I would hope that in an MPH program I would have the opportunity to publish (need to look into this)...

The reason why I am toying with getting a masters degree is that I am tired. I am burnt out (esp with covid). I commuted 3 hours a day to school while also working part-time for the first two years of my bachelors degree, then I had a child, and now that I'm graduating I'm having another child. I have to study for the GRE with a kid running around (no pre-k, thanks covid) while being pregnant and trying to write papers; I'm not confident in getting top-tier scores at this time. Reasonable scores at best.

The thought of beginning a 6 year program next year (if I even get in, because I'm not sure that I'm competitive enough) stresses me out. But the thought of being out of school not learning anything new or useful also stresses me out. Lots of debt stresses me out, but I almost don't care about that part. I could probably take this whole next two years off and work as an RA in both of my labs and at the clinic, which would likely be the best option, but it wouldn't be as (emotionally? academically?) fulfilling as an MPH or MSW.

IDK why I'm even posting this, but thank you for reading if you did.

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[deleted343839]

Congratulations on finishing your degree! A few thoughts...

I am very set on a PhD in clinical psych, ideally with a community or mental health policy focus.

Just out of curiosity, if you're interested in systems-level issues and health policy, why are you aiming for a PhD in clinical psychology? There are public health doctoral programs with strengths in this area exactly. Your interests in psych epidemiology would also be a better fit in a public health program. You will not find that kind of expertise in most psychology departments.

The reason why I am toying with getting a masters degree is that I am tired. I am burnt out (esp with covid).

Burnout is usually given as a reason to not pursue further education. How will a master's solve that problem?

It sounds like your interests are still pretty broad and perhaps it would be reasonable to give some thought to the career you want at the end of the tunnel and map your training needs to that.

 

[medicabruja]

>There are public health doctoral programs with strengths in this area exactly. Your interests in psych epidemiology would also be a better fit in a public health program. You will not find that kind of expertise in most psychology departments.

I do not want a non-clinical phd. I love working with patients and have a very strong interest in research that is implementable, and aims to reduce health disparities. Clinical psych, especially the programs I plan on applying to fit most of my criteria for an advanced degree. They do not, however have enough training in the public health realm. Epidemiology would not be a dream job for me, neither would social work. I want the experience and I want it to inform the work I would do as a clinical psychologist.

>Burnout is usually given as a reason to not pursue further education. How will a master's solve that problem?

I'm burned out for the time being, but that does not mean I shouldn't pursue a higher degree. A masters degree will keep me "moving forward" with a closer goal post (2 years vs 6).

I know that I have diverse interests, I view it as a boon to my person and career. I will always be interested in the interplay between macro and micro level issues, and I think that as clinicians we should all be at least somewhat aware of systemic issues (I myself want to go father than being simply aware of them). Clinical psych fits my career goals, but I definitely don't see the harm in adding on another masters degree to fill in gaps in my desired knowledge.

 

[WisNeuro]

>Burnout is usually given as a reason to not pursue further education. How will a master's solve that problem?

I'm burned out for the time being, but that does not mean I shouldn't pursue a higher degree. A masters degree will keep me "moving forward" with a closer goal post (2 years vs 6).

Master's degrees rarely take time off the completion time in PhD programs. At best, you'll be able to waive a class or two.

 

[medicabruja]

Master's degrees rarely take time off the completion time in PhD programs. At best, you'll be able to waive a class or two.

That doesn't bother me. I meant more like I'll have the completion of a degree to look forward to sooner. Starting a 6 year degree right now feels like jumping in the deep end of the pool while I'm still learning to swim.

 

[WisNeuro]

That doesn't bother me. I meant more like I'll have the completion of a degree to look forward to sooner. Starting a 6 year degree right now feels like jumping in the deep end of the pool while I'm still learning to swim.

Ah. Well, from the 3 masters degree into PhD friends from my old program, it didn't help all that much with the overwhelming feeling once starting the doctoral program. Maybe one of them had an easier transition into the research area as his masters was pretty research heavy, but we were pretty much all in the same boat in that small sample size.

 

[deleted343839]

I do not want a non-clinical phd. I love working with patients and have a very strong interest in research that is implementable, and aims to reduce health disparities. Clinical psych, especially the programs I plan on applying to fit most of my criteria for an advanced degree. They do not, however have enough training in the public health realm.

Typically, you can take courses from other departments while in a doctoral program to fill in disciplinary knowledge gaps.

It sounds like you have your mind made up though, and time to spare. I know someone who has three doctorates, so... different strokes.

 

[medicabruja]

Ah. Well, from the 3 masters degree into PhD friends from my old program, it didn't help all that much with the overwhelming feeling once starting the doctoral program. Maybe one of them had an easier transition into the research area as his masters was pretty research heavy, but we were pretty much all in the same boat in that small sample size.

Interesting, I'll take that into consideration. I suppose I should more strongly consider an MPH program as I am least prepared in the area of statistics, and biostat is obviously a large component of MPH programs. Thank you for the reply.

 

[WisNeuro]

Interesting, I'll take that into consideration. I suppose I should more strongly consider an MPH program as I am least prepared in the area of statistics, and biostat is obviously a large component of MPH programs. Thank you for the reply.

If you ever want to eventually get into admin or leadership, whatever higher power you believe in help your soul, the MPH will be your ticket there. Many places do not like hiring clinicians into those roles without an MBA or MPH. Though, I don't know how much I'd recommend leadership roles in healthcare systems. I've never met anyone happy with their leadership position, or anyone who has lasted in one more than 5 years.

 

[medicabruja]

Typically, you can take courses from other departments while in a doctoral program to fill in disciplinary knowledge gaps.

It sounds like you have your mind made up though, and time to spare. I know someone who has three doctorates, so... different strokes.

That is true, I should contact my ideal programs/alum and see if I can piecemeal my ideal degree(s) together like that.

3 doctorates seems like a lot, omg. But I feel it, I could name at least 2 other masters degrees that "sound like fun".

 

[medicabruja]

If you ever want to eventually get into admin or leadership, whatever higher power you believe in help your soul, the MPH will be your ticket there. Many places do not like hiring clinicians into those roles without an MBA or MPH. Though, I don't know how much I'd recommend leadership roles in healthcare systems. I've never met anyone happy with their leadership position, or anyone who has lasted in one more than 5 years.

Ah, now you've said the golden words. I could see myself being in leadership roles (I joke that my real dream job would be director of SAMHSA), and it has been feedback from past supervisors that they think they'll be working for me in 10 years. But yes, I wouldn't want to last more than 5 years in such a role, I imagine it would be very stressful; only worth it if I could make meaningful change.

 

[deleted343839]

That is true, I should contact my ideal programs/alum and see if I can piecemeal my ideal degree(s) together like that.

3 doctorates seems like a lot, omg. But I feel it, I could name at least 2 other masters degrees that "sound like fun".

Some universities offer a "portfolio" option where you can put together an interdisciplinary course package as part of your degree. These are things to ask/look into when you look up program info.

I could name several master's degrees that (still!) sound like fun, but I like making money more. Again, different strokes.

 

[medicabruja]

Some universities offer a "portfolio" option where you can put together an interdisciplinary course package as part of your degree. These are things to ask/look into when you look up program info.

I could name several master's degrees that (still!) sound like fun, but I like making money more. Again, different strokes.

Really? That sounds right up my alley. I didn't know such things existed for PhDs, just bachelors. I will look into that, thank you! And yes, masters degrees are expensive and future me will probably being saying ouch at the loan repayment costs

 

[PsyDuck90]

Really? That sounds right up my alley. I didn't know such things existed for PhDs, just bachelors. I will look into that, thank you! And yes, masters degrees are expensive and future me will probably being saying ouch at the loan repayment costs

FYI, a quick Google search led me to find that the University of Florida and San Diego State University allow for clinical psych PhD students to concurrently pursue an MPH. There may be more. Those were just the 1st 2 results of schools I recognize when searching "clinical psychology phd/mph dual degree." That may be another avenue for you to explore.

 

[medicabruja]

FYI, a quick Google search led me to find that the University of Florida and San Diego State University allow for clinical psych PhD students to concurrently pursue an MPH. There may be more. Those were just the 1st 2 results of schools I recognize when searching "clinical psychology phd/mph dual degree." That may be another avenue for you to explore.

Nice, a while ago I had thought of doing a JD/PhD, but got turned off for some reason. SDSU is very much a reach school for me (and I don't want to live in Florida), but that may be one avenue. I will look into this! Thank you!

 

[beginner2011]

Nice, a while ago I had thought of doing a JD/PhD, but got turned off for some reason. SDSU is very much a reach school for me (and I don't want to live in Florida), but that may be one avenue. I will look into this! Thank you!

FWIW, I'm vicariously familiar with the training at SDSU, and the MPH arrangement in particular, and it seems to be really stellar.

I will also say that it is possible that you could pursue formal epidemiology training while completing a clinical PhD, but it would take some effort and the right program support (which...varies). More informally, I've stumbled my way into collaborations with some particularly prolific epidemiologists, and after the research training we have as psychologists it didn't take much effort on my end or my collaborator's end for me to take the lead on a project. Whether or not that would translate into the kind of hybrid career you're envisioning, I'm not sure.

One caution that I'll share is that I'd encourage you to seriously consider whether or not a truly hybrid (clinical/research) career is what you want/need in your professional life. For most that I know who have held on to some degree of both it feels a bit like trying to feed two birds with one seed. If you can let go of one early it will make your life and your training much more simple.

 

[medicabruja]

FWIW, I'm vicariously familiar with the training at SDSU, and the MPH arrangement in particular, and it seems to be really stellar.

I will also say that it is possible that you could pursue formal epidemiology training while completing a clinical PhD, but it would take some effort and the right program support (which...varies). More informally, I've stumbled my way into collaborations with some particularly prolific epidemiologists, and after the research training we have as psychologists it didn't take much effort on my end or my collaborator's end for me to take the lead on a project. Whether or not that would translate into the kind of hybrid career you're envisioning, I'm not sure.

One caution that I'll share is that I'd encourage you to seriously consider whether or not a truly hybrid (clinical/research) career is what you want/need in your professional life. For most that I know who have held on to some degree of both it feels a bit like trying to feed two birds with one seed. If you can let go of one early it will make your life and your training much more simple.

Thank you for the the reply. I'll keep SDSU's joint program in my sights.

I feel like I've had good exposure to different aspects of the clinical psychologist lifestyle via my 3 main mentors, all of whom do very different work. I definitely believe that my career will evolve over time into something distinct and ideal for me; clinical psych definitely feels like the most flexible degree for my wide ranging interests (in respect to health disparities among different populations).

Seeking out partnerships during a PhD is good advice, and I imagine that there will be many viable opportunities for this depending on the institution.

 

[Psychchick09]

Nice, a while ago I had thought of doing a JD/PhD, but got turned off for some reason. SDSU is very much a reach school for me (and I don't want to live in Florida), but that may be one avenue. I will look into this! Thank you!

Saint Louis University has a duel clinical psych/mph program as well.

 

[theSteppenwolf]

There are many joint programs out there (PhD Clin Psy and MPH). That could be an option. I also seem to recall a joint PsyD/DrPH program at Loma Linda University. I know absolutely nothing about the school or program(s). I just remember running across it back when I was researching doctoral programs.

 

[singasongofjoy]

IMO, I'd be super hesitant to take on a whole new degree program right now especially with the uncertainty of COVID and next semester (although maybe you've got some sort of solid childcare situation lined up). And the more I've learned about the long-term effect of loans / lost income, that would be a significant factor for me as well- you could invest instead of paying tuition for a master's that won't ultimately make your PhD program any shorter.

A middle ground might be to take a few classes in whatever you want to beef up on the most (e.g., stats) at your local university. In my PhD program there was a retiree from the community that sometimes took classes just for fun. Some profs allowed it and some didn't but if you could do that it would be a lot cheaper than an entire program and allow you some time to also have an RA or some other job that would give you helpful experience. IF you're set on getting a masters, though, MPH or MBA would def be the way to go given your desire for both leadership and big picture issues. Though after you have your license it's super easy to get involved with policy/leadership with your state psych organization, community/provider quality groups through local MCOs, etc.