MS0 Prep for the Match

[actin_a_fool]

I'll be starting medical school at a lower tier US MD school. I'm keeping my thoughts open about what specialty I want to go into but as of right now, I'm interested in a balance of cognitive/working with my hands (not strictly one of the other) and definitely prefer the instant gratification of surgery as opposed to ongoing care of medicine. which I gather from my experiences shadowing. As of right now, I think I'm interested in surgery (neuro, CT, ortho, pediatric, plastics (ped. craniofacial)) and oncology (though this doesn't involve working with hands - I might be interested in it as a fellowship).

I know I'll have a lot more experiences that will help guide me. But for now, I want to make sure I start out med school on the right foot so that by MS4, I haven't limited my options. I'm not afraid to work hard, just need some direction.

My question is, what things need to happen for this to be a possibility? My plans/priorities are below:
MS1-MS2

• Master the pre-clinical curriculum. We have P/F at my school. Is AOA important? I heard it was losing importance.
• Begin basic research on CNS tumors with a lab at my school during MS1 (after I've acclimated to the MS1 curriculum). My institution doesn't have the most amazing opportunities but I am taking the opportunities I can get - what else should I look for to be qualified in the surgical specialties above?
• Tutor a little bit for the MCAT (I've been doing this for the last 2 years and it pays well enough to be worth it.
• I do not plan to be involved in much volunteering or any other extracurriculars outside of intramural sports. Is this a big deal?
• Pass Step 1.

MS3-MS4

• Honor as many clerkships as possible, particularly surgery, IM, and electives.
• Continue research, hopefully funneled down into my field of interest. Do residency directors take pre-med school publications into account? I have 2 first author case reports that are just about to be finished (I plan to abandon case reports in med school, just wanted to have an easier introduction to research).
• Do multiple away rotations at top-20 (ish) programs (I could care less about the prestige, I just want to have the best training possible during residency).
• Crush Step 2 CK.

Thank you again for your help!

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[takeurmeds02]

I'm stressed out just reading this lol Good to be prepared but damn.

 

[slowthai]

I'll be starting medical school at a lower tier US MD school. I'm keeping my thoughts open about what specialty I want to go into but as of right now, I'm interested in a balance of cognitive/working with my hands (not strictly one of the other) and definitely prefer the instant gratification of surgery as opposed to ongoing care of medicine. which I gather from my experiences shadowing. As of right now, I think I'm interested in surgery (neuro, CT, ortho, pediatric, plastics (ped. craniofacial)) and oncology (though this doesn't involve working with hands - I might be interested in it as a fellowship).

I know I'll have a lot more experiences that will help guide me. But for now, I want to make sure I start out med school on the right foot so that by MS4, I haven't limited my options. I'm not afraid to work hard, just need some direction.

My question is, what things need to happen for this to be a possibility? My plans/priorities are below:
MS1-MS2

• Master the pre-clinical curriculum. We have P/F at my school. Is AOA important? I heard it was losing importance.
• Begin basic research on CNS tumors with a lab at my school during MS1 (after I've acclimated to the MS1 curriculum). My institution doesn't have the most amazing opportunities but I am taking the opportunities I can get - what else should I look for to be qualified in the surgical specialties above?
• Tutor a little bit for the MCAT (I've been doing this for the last 2 years and it pays well enough to be worth it.
• I do not plan to be involved in much volunteering or any other extracurriculars outside of intramural sports. Is this a big deal?
• Pass Step 1.

MS3-MS4

• Honor as many clerkships as possible, particularly surgery, IM, and electives.
• Continue research, hopefully funneled down into my field of interest. Do residency directors take pre-med school publications into account? I have 2 first author case reports that are just about to be finished (I plan to abandon case reports in med school, just wanted to have an easier introduction to research).
• Do multiple away rotations at top-20 (ish) programs (I could care less about the prestige, I just want to have the best training possible during residency).
• Crush Step 2 CK.

Thank you again for your help!

AOA
AOA will be equally or more important, but like I've always said, it's higher yield to put all your time into gunning for a high step score* and a lot of pubs unless you've got it like that and can maintain top 10-15% without much difficulty while doing the first two things.

Research
I would focus on clinical research. The return on your time is much higher than for basic science. You can rack up a lot of pubs if you get with the right PI. Most of the time, programs are looking for quantity over quality.
If nsx is at the top for you, another option is to do both; run a couple of clinical projects and one long term basic, so that you'll have checked the box on both productivity and the basic science thing, because neurosurg values basic stuff more than other surgical subs.

PDs do value research from before med school. You don't need to abandon case reports, especially if you're strapped for pubs. Just don't make it the majority of your stuff, lol.

ECs
If you can manage the tutoring on top of everything, fair play.
I don't think not having ECs is a big deal, but you might want to have something as filler (cooking, working out, sh*tposting, etc) so that you'll have something to discuss on interviews other than the robotic, academic side of you. They want to see the human, relatable side of you, lol. So tutoring could be that for you.


In these ultra competitive fields, it doesn't really matter where you go, you'll get good training regardless. You might find that you'll get more operative experience/better training at some community program (like JPS for ortho) vs a top tier place with a lot of fellows getting in the way (like HSS). The advantage of those top places is really in pursuing fellowship. They've got the connections to carry you into whichever fellowship you want, but to be fair, you can match into any fellowship from any program. It just might be harder to break into brand name, highly competitive fellowships.

*Personally, I would pretend like step 1 is still scored and more or less go all out. That way when you prepare for step 2 you'll be killing, because step 2 builds on step 1. If not, at the least, make sure you prepare enough to pass it comfortably.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I'll be starting medical school at a lower tier US MD school. I'm keeping my thoughts open about what specialty I want to go into but as of right now, I'm interested in a balance of cognitive/working with my hands (not strictly one of the other) and definitely prefer the instant gratification of surgery as opposed to ongoing care of medicine. which I gather from my experiences shadowing. As of right now, I think I'm interested in surgery (neuro, CT, ortho, pediatric, plastics (ped. craniofacial)) and oncology (though this doesn't involve working with hands - I might be interested in it as a fellowship).

I know I'll have a lot more experiences that will help guide me. But for now, I want to make sure I start out med school on the right foot so that by MS4, I haven't limited my options. I'm not afraid to work hard, just need some direction.

My question is, what things need to happen for this to be a possibility? My plans/priorities are below:
MS1-MS2

• Master the pre-clinical curriculum. We have P/F at my school. Is AOA important? I heard it was losing importance.
• Begin basic research on CNS tumors with a lab at my school during MS1 (after I've acclimated to the MS1 curriculum). My institution doesn't have the most amazing opportunities but I am taking the opportunities I can get - what else should I look for to be qualified in the surgical specialties above?
• Tutor a little bit for the MCAT (I've been doing this for the last 2 years and it pays well enough to be worth it.
• I do not plan to be involved in much volunteering or any other extracurriculars outside of intramural sports. Is this a big deal?
• Pass Step 1.

MS3-MS4

• Honor as many clerkships as possible, particularly surgery, IM, and electives.
• Continue research, hopefully funneled down into my field of interest. Do residency directors take pre-med school publications into account? I have 2 first author case reports that are just about to be finished (I plan to abandon case reports in med school, just wanted to have an easier introduction to research).
• Do multiple away rotations at top-20 (ish) programs (I could care less about the prestige, I just want to have the best training possible during residency).
• Crush Step 2 CK.

Thank you again for your help!

Normally Id say chill but if you want to match something really competitive which it appears you do then you have the right approach. Never too early to network or start clinical research. Everyone told me not to touch boards stuff until Spring 2nd year (horrible advice). I didnt listen to them and I started annotating first aid watching Boards and beyond and pathoma, watching sketchy etc since the start of 2nd year and I am SO glad I did omg I am so much less stressed right now because of it and I still have 3 months till I take boards. Good looks being proactive man. I would even go as far as to say you should start Sketchy micro first year and watch board and beyond for Biochem and Physio first year if you can. The earlier you can be at least familiar with First Aid and Sketchy the more youll thank yourself 2nd year spring when everyone is running around with their heads chopped off in a puddle of their own tears because they slacked off the first two years

 

[Chibucks15]

Chill out there kid and just figure out how to be a medical student before planning for the match. I know a lot of people who tried to start out on boards right away and burned out. There is a plateau of performance on this monster, it isn’t just a “learn all of medicine” kinda thing.
Medical school isn’t like undergrad where you can actually learn all the material they want you to. there’s a reason that people specialize.
Also, the match will look very different but the time you get there

 

[Deecee2DO]

Chill out there kid and just figure out how to be a medical student before planning for the match. I know a lot of people who tried to start out on boards right away and burned out. There is a plateau of performance on this monster, it isn’t just a “learn all of medicine” kinda thing.
Medical school isn’t like undergrad where you can actually learn all the material they want you to. there’s a reason that people specialize.
Also, the match will look very different but the time you get there

With the specialties hes interested in i dont think its a bad thing to prepare early with connections and research. I dont regret at all starting studying for boards first day of 2nd year and still havent burned out and I was studying at least 12 hrs daily during fall of M2 to get class and boards in and im literally fine still hitting 10-12 hrs but its better now because now Im only doing boards

 

[actin_a_fool]

I'm stressed out just reading this lol Good to be prepared but damn.

Hahah that gave me a good laugh. I definitely understand I might be thinking a little bit ahead but I want to make sure I have the right information from the beginning.

AOA
AOA will be equally or more important, but like I've always said, it's higher yield to put all your time into gunning for a high step score* and a lot of pubs unless you've got it like that and can maintain top 10-15% without much difficulty while doing the first two things.

Research
I would focus on clinical research. The return on your time is much higher than for basic science. You can rack up a lot of pubs if you get with the right PI. Most of the time, programs are looking for quantity over quality.
If nsx is at the top for you, another option is to do both; run a couple of clinical projects and one long term basic, so that you'll have checked the box on both productivity and the basic science thing, because neurosurg values basic stuff more than other surgical subs.

PDs do value research from before med school. You don't need to abandon case reports, especially if you're strapped for pubs. Just don't make it the majority of your stuff, lol.

ECs
If you can manage the tutoring on top of everything, fair play.
I don't think not having ECs is a big deal, but you might want to have something as filler (cooking, working out, sh*tposting, etc) so that you'll have something to discuss on interviews other than the robotic, academic side of you. They want to see the human, relatable side of you, lol. So tutoring could be that for you.


In these ultra competitive fields, it doesn't really matter where you go, you'll get good training regardless. You might find that you'll get more operative experience/better training at some community program (like JPS for ortho) vs a top tier place with a lot of fellows getting in the way (like HSS). The advantage of those top places is really in pursuing fellowship. They've got the connections to carry you into whichever fellowship you want, but to be fair, you can match into any fellowship from any program. It just might be harder to break into brand name, highly competitive fellowships.

*Personally, I would pretend like step 1 is still scored and more or less go all out. That way when you prepare for step 2, you'll be killing, because step 2 builds on step 1. If not, at the least, make sure you prepare enough to pass it comfortably.

Thank you for all this! My interest in basic research does come with neuro but it's also from a place of personal interest. My thoughts were along the same lines with having a long term basic science project going and then doing clinical projects as I go along. I forgot to include that I am open to taking a research year between MS3-MS4. Not necessarily for the application, but because of my personal interests - PhD was too long for me and didn't line up with my career interests but I could do a year to get more experience that will help me in the future. Thoughts?

As far as AOA goes, what I'm understanding is that Step + pubs > AOA. But AOA is still good and can help. Is that correct? If AOA is still highly regarded, I am definitely more likely to pursue it heavily considering that I'm coming from a lower-tier program.

Fortunately the tutoring is quite flexible and I can choose how much I take. My plan is to start with none and see how the first semester or two goes with everything else. I've got a family (wife + 2 kids) so thats definitely my filler (along with sports/working out).

This seems reasonable and again, thanks for you help!

 

[actin_a_fool]

Chill out there kid and just figure out how to be a medical student before planning for the match. I know a lot of people who tried to start out on boards right away and burned out. There is a plateau of performance on this monster, it isn’t just a “learn all of medicine” kinda thing.
Medical school isn’t like undergrad where you can actually learn all the material they want you to. there’s a reason that people specialize.
Also, the match will look very different but the time you get there

I don't think you necessarily understood the intent of my question. I want to have the right information in front of me so that as things progress in med school, I can make the right decisions and not waste time trying to find this information out when I'm stressed out of my mind with everything else. Though I haven't been through it, I know that getting used to med school with be a harsh learning curve. I'm going in with the attitude that everyone only has so much time and I'm not going to stress if I can't start research during first semester, if I don't make AOA, if I don't learn everything, etc. Again, I just want the right information about what's important and how to prioritize.

Normally Id say chill but if you want to match something really competitive which it appears you do then you have the right approach. Never too early to network or start clinical research. Everyone told me not to touch boards stuff until Spring 2nd year (horrible advice). I didnt listen to them and I started annotating first aid watching Boards and beyond and pathoma, watching sketchy etc since the start of 2nd year and I am SO glad I did omg I am so much less stressed right now because of it and I still have 3 months till I take boards. Good looks being proactive man. I would even go as far as to say you should start Sketchy micro first year and watch board and beyond for Biochem and Physio first year if you can. The earlier you can be at least familiar with First Aid and Sketchy the more youll thank yourself 2nd year spring when everyone is running around with their heads chopped off in a puddle of their own tears because they slacked off the first two years

Glad to see it's panned out for you! Thanks for the advice - I'm trying to put everything in order, along with what's most important RN and this is helpful.

With the specialties hes interested in i dont think its a bad thing to prepare early with connections and research. I dont regret at all starting studying for boards first day of 2nd year and still havent burned out and I was studying at least 12 hrs daily during fall of M2 to get class and boards in and im literally fine still hitting 10-12 hrs but its better now because now Im only doing boards

Word.

 

[Ducant]

With the specialties hes interested in i dont think its a bad thing to prepare early with connections and research. I dont regret at all starting studying for boards first day of 2nd year and still havent burned out and I was studying at least 12 hrs daily during fall of M2 to get class and boards in and im literally fine still hitting 10-12 hrs but its better now because now Im only doing boards

Yeahhh.. i wouldnt have been able to do that. Ever.

 

[Chibucks15]

I don't think you necessarily understood the intent of my question. I want to have the right information in front of me so that as things progress in med school, I can make the right decisions and not waste time trying to find this information out when I'm stressed out of my mind with everything else. Though I haven't been through it, I know that getting used to med school with be a harsh learning curve. I'm going in with the attitude that everyone only has so much time and I'm not going to stress if I can't start research during first semester, if I don't make AOA, if I don't learn everything, etc. Again, I just want the right information about what's important and how to prioritize.


Glad to see it's panned out for you! Thanks for the advice - I'm trying to put everything in order, along with what's most important RN and this is helpful.


Word.

So it sounds like based on your reply you're taking my advice anyway. As someone who has actually taken and passed the exam, I would have burned out had I started any earlier than I did and I started Christmas break MS2. I also was planning a wedding during that time so that could have accounted for extra stress. If you can handle it all, including family, then more power to ya. There are some superheros out there too. Just was kinda a warning to not just you but plenty of other M0s out there just reading.

My main point is don't bite off more than you can chew to start. Everyone comes in having been able to juggle a billion things, but med school is a different beast. I know people who came in gunning hard, started board stuff way too early, and struggled to even stay afloat. If anything do Sketchy micro/pharm first year. That's a sizeable time chunk and it'll actually be useful. Trying to get ahead and learn actual medicine when you haven't even gotten through the basics in your coursework is something I saw bite people in the ass real hard. Best of luck to ya though its a long journey.

 

[slowthai]

Hahah that gave me a good laugh. I definitely understand I might be thinking a little bit ahead but I want to make sure I have the right information from the beginning.


Thank you for all this! My interest in basic research does come with neuro but it's also from a place of personal interest. My thoughts were along the same lines with having a long term basic science project going and then doing clinical projects as I go along. I forgot to include that I am open to taking a research year between MS3-MS4. Not necessarily for the application, but because of my personal interests - PhD was too long for me and didn't line up with my career interests but I could do a year to get more experience that will help me in the future. Thoughts?

As far as AOA goes, what I'm understanding is that Step + pubs > AOA. But AOA is still good and can help. Is that correct? If AOA is still highly regarded, I am definitely more likely to pursue it heavily considering that I'm coming from a lower-tier program.

Fortunately the tutoring is quite flexible and I can choose how much I take. My plan is to start with none and see how the first semester or two goes with everything else. I've got a family (wife + 2 kids) so thats definitely my filler (along with sports/working out).

This seems reasonable and again, thanks for you help!

As far as the research year goes, I'll ask @libertyyne to chime in, because I'm not as familiar with the utility of research years in neurosurg. I imagine that it will help you if you're productive and impress if you're hoping to land interviews at the most competitive programs, especially coming from a low tier school. But it will likely hurt you if you're not productive.

What you said about AOA is correct. I don't want to downplay AOA. It can give you a big boost, especially if you're deficient in one of the other areas (step or pubs), but it's not the end all be all and it's not even close to a requirement. You should treat the other two like hard, nonnegotiable requirements, because they basically are. AOA can be more of a bonus, depending.

Personally, I would find out what your school's nomination criteria is before anything. If it's something that you think is achievable, then have at it.

About the tutoring, sounds good!

No problem!

 

[slowthai]

Let me just say this. You can gun from day 1 of M1 and not burnout at all if you plan properly (you seem to have this mindset already, so that's great), pace yourself, and manage your time well. It takes discipline and consistency. It's all about breaking the mountain of information that you have to master into small chunks. Anki is perfect for this.

Let your workload determine the amount of time you spend studying, not the other way around. If you can do this every single day, I promise you that you'll be able to do everything that you plan to do with a decent to good school life balance. Granted, you're gunning for AOA, so your balance might not be great, but if it becomes too overwhelming, you can always pull back and focus on boards while passing your classes comfortably.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

.

With the specialties hes interested in i dont think its a bad thing to prepare early with connections and research. I dont regret at all starting studying for boards first day of 2nd year and still havent burned out and I was studying at least 12 hrs daily during fall of M2 to get class and boards in and im literally fine still hitting 10-12 hrs but its better now because now Im only doing boards

Starting MS2 is not the same as starting first day of med school. But honestly if you do it right there is a lot of overlap. I use almost exclusively board resources to study for each block and just supplement by cramming the powerpoints a few days before the exam. Definitely not in danger of burning out.

 

[ExplodingUlcers]

.



Starting MS2 is not the same as starting first day of med school. But honestly if you do it right there is a lot of overlap. I use almost exclusively board resources to study for each block and just supplement by cramming the powerpoints a few days before the exam. Definitely not in danger of burning out.

Currently in the midst of doing this too as an MS1 and have come nowhere close to failing. A lot of people in my class are only now discovering how efficient board resources are if you use them as a primary learning modality.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

 

[Deecee2DO]

Currently in the midst of doing this too as an MS1 and have come nowhere close to failing. A lot of people in my class are only now discovering how efficient board resources are if you use them as a primary learning modality.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

Keep doing what you are doing. You will thank yourself come January of M2

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Currently in the midst of doing this too as an MS1 and have come nowhere close to failing. A lot of people in my class are only now discovering how efficient board resources are if you use them as a primary learning modality.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

Agreed. I’m actually doing really well because I’m using board prep.

 

[altblue]

Yup, turns out that MS-1 is a lot more interesting when you use outside, standardized lectures that actually well-taught

Just make sure to supplement your anatomy/histology knowledge with your class lectures, since outside resources are historically weak in those domains

 

[slowthai]

Yup, turns out that MS-1 is a lot more interesting when you use outside, standardized lectures that actually well-taught

Just make sure to supplement your anatomy/histology knowledge with your class lectures, since outside resources are historically weak in those domains

Totally agree. The feeling of control and independence I experience because I'm not relying on my school to tell me what to study is just great.
It's so much easier to put in that time and effort because you're not dreading looking at some crappy slides every single day.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Totally agree. The feeling of control and independence I experience because I'm not relying on my school to tell me what to study is just great.
It's so much easier to put in that time and effort because you're not dreading looking at some crappy slides every single day.

I'm in the neuro/psych block for my school. All my 2nd year friends who used BnB, etc. told me that this module was so well done that they didn't need to even use outside resources. I didn't quite believe them, but now that I'm in this module, it is a remarkable breath of fresh air. Other than zanki, I haven't used any of the outside resources yet.

 

[actin_a_fool]

So it sounds like based on your reply you're taking my advice anyway. As someone who has actually taken and passed the exam, I would have burned out had I started any earlier than I did and I started Christmas break MS2. I also was planning a wedding during that time so that could have accounted for extra stress. If you can handle it all, including family, then more power to ya. There are some superheros out there too. Just was kinda a warning to not just you but plenty of other M0s out there just reading.

My main point is don't bite off more than you can chew to start. Everyone comes in having been able to juggle a billion things, but med school is a different beast. I know people who came in gunning hard, started board stuff way too early, and struggled to even stay afloat. If anything do Sketchy micro/pharm first year. That's a sizeable time chunk and it'll actually be useful. Trying to get ahead and learn actual medicine when you haven't even gotten through the basics in your coursework is something I saw bite people in the ass real hard. Best of luck to ya though its a long journey.

I think your points are valid but telling someone to chill out sends a condescending message that is just as wrong as telling M0's that every single one of them will be able to handle med school life from day 1. Everyone comes into med school with a different level of capability and if someone is ready to go and can already keep the pace, this is just limiting them. In your later post, you suggest a balance between the two, which I think is good advice that can apply to all M0's.

Let me just say this. You can gun from day 1 of M1 and not burnout at all if you plan properly (you seem to have this mindset already, so that's great), pace yourself, and manage your time well. It takes discipline and consistency. It's all about breaking the mountain of information that you have to master into small chunks. Anki is perfect for this.

Let your workload determine the amount of time you spend studying, not the other way around. If you can do this every single day, I promise you that you'll be able to do everything that you plan to do with a decent to good school life balance. Granted, you're gunning for AOA, so your balance might not be great, but if it becomes too overwhelming, you can always pull back and focus on boards while passing your classes comfortably.

That's consistent with my experience so far. I wouldn't say my pre-med years were typical and placed a lot of extra demands on me that I had to learn to cope with. I'm sure med school will be different but I learned I could regularly do 12+ hour days of studying if I used the Pomodoro technique, Anki, broke it up with exercise, listened to my body/mind, etc. I agree with @Chibucks15 that not everyone is able to do this from day 1 but once you've gotten a better grasp on locus of control, planning, time-management, etc., you should do everything you can.

Step is important, AOA is important, publications are important. Don't think of it in terms of which is more important because many competitive applicants have all three. You cannot make up a very bad step score with the other two, but once you get the good step score, the other two things become important. I'm from a low ranked school and AOA status makes a huge difference in the tier of residency program we match at. You can still match fine without AOA, but you'll shut the door on a good number of programs. Same with research.

Take things slow and enjoy the ride though. You can enjoy med school and build a competitive application.

If you are going to gun for a competitive field from the start of med school, your goal should be to do enough research that a year off is pointless. A research year might get you 4-6 manuscripts, which is definitely something you can get done in the first 3 years of med school. This process takes so long, you don't want to waste a year if you don't need to. You still have at least 11 years ahead of you.

Great advice, thanks for this.

.
Starting MS2 is not the same as starting first day of med school. But honestly if you do it right there is a lot of overlap. I use almost exclusively board resources to study for each block and just supplement by cramming the powerpoints a few days before the exam. Definitely not in danger of burning out.

Currently in the midst of doing this too as an MS1 and have come nowhere close to failing. A lot of people in my class are only now discovering how efficient board resources are if you use them as a primary learning modality.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

@Matthew9Thirtyfive @ExplodingUlcers @slowthai @Deecee2DO It seems the consensus is B&B is great for everything except histo and anatomy (they don't have sections for this) - does this mean no need for pathoma? Anything you would plan on incorporating with question banks before dedicated and if so, when and what?

 

[deleted393595]

I'll be starting medical school at a lower tier US MD school. I'm keeping my thoughts open about what specialty I want to go into but as of right now, I'm interested in a balance of cognitive/working with my hands (not strictly one of the other) and definitely prefer the instant gratification of surgery as opposed to ongoing care of medicine. which I gather from my experiences shadowing. As of right now, I think I'm interested in surgery (neuro, CT, ortho, pediatric, plastics (ped. craniofacial)) and oncology (though this doesn't involve working with hands - I might be interested in it as a fellowship).

I know I'll have a lot more experiences that will help guide me. But for now, I want to make sure I start out med school on the right foot so that by MS4, I haven't limited my options. I'm not afraid to work hard, just need some direction.

My question is, what things need to happen for this to be a possibility? My plans/priorities are below:
MS1-MS2

• Master the pre-clinical curriculum. We have P/F at my school. Is AOA important? I heard it was losing importance.
• Begin basic research on CNS tumors with a lab at my school during MS1 (after I've acclimated to the MS1 curriculum). My institution doesn't have the most amazing opportunities but I am taking the opportunities I can get - what else should I look for to be qualified in the surgical specialties above?
• Tutor a little bit for the MCAT (I've been doing this for the last 2 years and it pays well enough to be worth it.
• I do not plan to be involved in much volunteering or any other extracurriculars outside of intramural sports. Is this a big deal?
• Pass Step 1.

MS3-MS4

• Honor as many clerkships as possible, particularly surgery, IM, and electives.
• Continue research, hopefully funneled down into my field of interest. Do residency directors take pre-med school publications into account? I have 2 first author case reports that are just about to be finished (I plan to abandon case reports in med school, just wanted to have an easier introduction to research).
• Do multiple away rotations at top-20 (ish) programs (I could care less about the prestige, I just want to have the best training possible during residency).
• Crush Step 2 CK.

Thank you again for your help!

I get where you're coming from despite what other people on here will say: I was in your same shoes a long time ago. I was the highschooler making posts on SDN about what to do to get into a good med skool. I legit took a practice MCAT the summer before starting college. And things worked out: I'm now in a Top 5 program.

1) Get into research. Start emailing attendings in fields you're interested in about projects you can work on. Onboarding and paperwork takes forever. You want to start M1 being able to work on your project instead of having to wait for that to go through.

2) Focus on learning as much from your classes as you can. Step 1 is now P/F, but that does not mean that you should take your foot off the gas.

3) Spend time taking call w/ residents as a M1 and M2. Learn how to efficiently work the EMR and get efficient at gathering all the details on a patient you see.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

@Matthew9Thirtyfive @ExplodingUlcers @slowthai @Deecee2DO It seems the consensus is B&B is great for everything except histo and anatomy (they don't have sections for this) - does this mean no need for pathoma? Anything you would plan on incorporating with question banks before dedicated and if so, when and what?

I have not personally used pathoma. I think it is good, but I have been able to get everything I need from BnB and osmosis.

 

[slowthai]

That's consistent with my experience so far. I wouldn't say my pre-med years were typical and placed a lot of extra demands on me that I had to learn to cope with. I'm sure med school will be different but I learned I could regularly do 12+ hour days of studying if I used the Pomodoro technique, Anki, broke it up with exercise, listened to my body/mind, etc. I agree with @Chibucks15 that not everyone is able to do this from day 1 but once you've gotten a better grasp on locus of control, planning, time-management, etc., you should do everything you can.

You got it man. I can see that you've got the lifestyle down. You've set yourself up for success already.

@Matthew9Thirtyfive @ExplodingUlcers @slowthai @Deecee2DO It seems the consensus is B&B is great for everything except histo and anatomy (they don't have sections for this) - does this mean no need for pathoma? Anything you would plan on incorporating with question banks before dedicated and if so, when and what?

Histo and anatomy are low yield, especially histo. For anatomy, you can just incorporate the 100 concepts deck into your setup when preparing for step. It's a smallish deck (<500) that has everything you need for anatomy other than the Zanki MSK deck.

I would say pathoma isn't strictly necessary (it's basically all in FA), but it is so freaking high yield that I would caution against not using it. Like 99% of the 250+ scorers swear by it, especially the first 3 chapters.

I'd recommend listening to Pappi Goljan. He is an amazing man. He reviews pathophys, integrates across subjects, and gives you tips on how to think like the test writers. Extremely, extremely entertaining, lol. It is hard to forget what he says because he is so funny and interesting. I'd recommend listening to him when you've started covering path. That could be first or second year, depending on your curriculum.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Histo and anatomy are low yield, especially histo. For anatomy, you can just incorporate the 100 concepts deck into your setup when preparing for step. It's a smallish deck (<500) that has everything you need for anatomy other than the Zanki MSK deck.

Maybe for step but they aren’t low yield at my school, and I’ve had plenty of questions on our nbme where that knowledge has been helpful.

 

[slowthai]

Maybe for step but they aren’t low yield at my school, and I’ve had plenty of questions on our nbme where that knowledge has been helpful.

Yeah, I'm saying that school specific histo is low yield for step.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

3) is kind of a hit or miss.
Having a M1 or M2 who doesn’t have the clinical knowledge or technical knowledge to be helpful (because they aren’t supposed to have that knowledge yet) follow a resident around while they are on call sounds painful. M3/M4s have a foundation, so residents can help fill in gaps rather than explain everything from the beginning. You can be a great M3 without being this extra

1) I agree that starting research in M1 can be good, but I would suggest that OP waits at least a few months before starting. Everyone adjusts differently and everyone thinks they will crush it from the beginning, but not everyone does. It’s important to take the time to develop a routine that works. It’s also important to make friends with classmates, go out, have fun

Yeah agree. Taking call with residents as an M1 is super extra. Most of the residents where I’m at would think you were a tool if you tried to take call with them.

 

[Deecee2DO]

I think your points are valid but telling someone to chill out sends a condescending message that is just as wrong as telling M0's that every single one of them will be able to handle med school life from day 1. Everyone comes into med school with a different level of capability and if someone is ready to go and can already keep the pace, this is just limiting them. In your later post, you suggest a balance between the two, which I think is good advice that can apply to all M0's.


That's consistent with my experience so far. I wouldn't say my pre-med years were typical and placed a lot of extra demands on me that I had to learn to cope with. I'm sure med school will be different but I learned I could regularly do 12+ hour days of studying if I used the Pomodoro technique, Anki, broke it up with exercise, listened to my body/mind, etc. I agree with @Chibucks15 that not everyone is able to do this from day 1 but once you've gotten a better grasp on locus of control, planning, time-management, etc., you should do everything you can.


Great advice, thanks for this.



@Matthew9Thirtyfive @ExplodingUlcers @slowthai @Deecee2DO It seems the consensus is B&B is great for everything except histo and anatomy (they don't have sections for this) - does this mean no need for pathoma? Anything you would plan on incorporating with question banks before dedicated and if so, when and what?

Dont touch pathoma till M2

 

[ExplodingUlcers]

I think your points are valid but telling someone to chill out sends a condescending message that is just as wrong as telling M0's that every single one of them will be able to handle med school life from day 1. Everyone comes into med school with a different level of capability and if someone is ready to go and can already keep the pace, this is just limiting them. In your later post, you suggest a balance between the two, which I think is good advice that can apply to all M0's.


That's consistent with my experience so far. I wouldn't say my pre-med years were typical and placed a lot of extra demands on me that I had to learn to cope with. I'm sure med school will be different but I learned I could regularly do 12+ hour days of studying if I used the Pomodoro technique, Anki, broke it up with exercise, listened to my body/mind, etc. I agree with @Chibucks15 that not everyone is able to do this from day 1 but once you've gotten a better grasp on locus of control, planning, time-management, etc., you should do everything you can.


Great advice, thanks for this.



@Matthew9Thirtyfive @ExplodingUlcers @slowthai @Deecee2DO It seems the consensus is B&B is great for everything except histo and anatomy (they don't have sections for this) - does this mean no need for pathoma? Anything you would plan on incorporating with question banks before dedicated and if so, when and what?

In terms of outside resources, I mostly use Costanzo (both big and BRS), BNB and Pathoma for any pathology covered in class along with Zanki.

A quick note about Pathoma. A lot of second years told me not to touch Pathoma, but it's such a valuable resource that I legitimately don't understand why you should deprive yourself of it. Sure, it's not going to cover all the low yield details in your PhD's slides, but it will certainly have all of the key points and he explains the underlying physio much better than any of the PhD lecturers at my school.

Take everything anyone says with a grain of salt. Try out any and all resources possible and if it works then stick with it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A quick note about Pathoma. A lot of second years told me not to touch Pathoma, but it's such a valuable resource that I legitimately don't understand why you should deprive yourself of it. Sure, it's not going to cover all the low yield details in your PhD's slides, but it will certainly have all of the key points and he explains the underlying physio much better than any of the PhD lecturers at my school.

For me, I get all I need for path from osmosis and BnB. Honestly when I watch pathoma, I’m mostly just getting the same info. I have occasionally watched it for the odd thing that isn’t in the other resources.

 

[deleted965528]

What you said about AOA is correct. I don't want to downplay AOA. It can give you a big boost, especially if you're deficient in one of the other areas (step or pubs), but it's not the end all be all and it's not even close to a requirement. You should treat the other two like hard, nonnegotiable requirements, because they basically are. AOA can be more of a bonus, depending.

Personally, I would find out what your school's nomination criteria is before anything. If it's something that you think is achievable, then have at it.

What are your thoughts on schools that don't offer AOA? Especially for someone with similar goals to OP's, would it hurt? All schools seem to say that PDs will shrug and pass it off as fine, but seeing how there is always an underlying effect to everything, I am inclined to believe there is more to that. Btw I'm not talking about non-AOA schools like Harvard or UCSF, but more around T30s.

I'm new to this so I'm also confused on how schools are P/F preclinical but yet still offer AOA. Is it in their internal rankings or do they use clerkship grades?

 

[slowthai]

What are your thoughts on schools that don't offer AOA? Especially for someone with similar goals to OP's, would it hurt? All schools seem to say that PDs will shrug and pass it off as fine, but seeing how there is always an underlying effect to everything, I am inclined to believe there is more to that. Btw I'm not talking about non-AOA schools like Harvard or UCSF, but more around T30s.

I'm new to this so I'm also confused on how schools are P/F preclinical but yet still offer AOA. Is it in their internal rankings or do they use clerkship grades?

Your school not offering AOA will not hurt you at all.

For those P/F schools, it's 100% internal rankings for junior AOA and clerkship grades for senior AOA. But then again, they may consider research and volunteering as additional criteria for nomination, depending on the school.

 

[deleted965528]

Your school not offering AOA will not hurt you at all.

For those P/F schools, it's 100% internal rankings for junior AOA and clerkship grades for senior AOA. But then again, they may consider research and volunteering as additional criteria for nomination, depending on the school.

Interesting...supposedly there are no internal rankings for the schools in mind

 

[deleted393595]

3) is kind of a hit or miss.
Having a M1 or M2 who doesn’t have the clinical knowledge or technical knowledge to be helpful (because they aren’t supposed to have that knowledge yet) follow a resident around while they are on call sounds painful. M3/M4s have a foundation, so residents can help fill in gaps rather than explain everything from the beginning. You can be a great M3 without being this extra

1) I agree that starting research in M1 can be good, but I would suggest that OP waits at least a few months before starting. Everyone adjusts differently and everyone thinks they will crush it from the beginning, but not everyone does. It’s important to take the time to develop a routine that works. It’s also important to make friends with classmates, go out, have fun

Eh, it's about learning process flow. That's the steepest part of 3rd year. Better to start early and get it out of the way

 

[slowthai]

Interesting...supposedly there are no internal rankings for the schools in mind

Then AOA nomination might be based off of something else entirely. That's even worse imo.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Interesting...supposedly there are no internal rankings for the schools in mind

Those schools’ AOA should have their criteria listed. Ours has it right on the site.

 

[Fission Chips]

Something to think about if you aren't concerned about prestige... The T-20 programs aren't always synonymous with providing the best surgical training. It should help getting an academic appointment though. One of my attendings came from a T-20 residency and she urged me to avoid applying there, saying she felt like she needed to do a fellowship in order to feel competent practicing on her own due to lack of autonomy in the OR.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Something to think about if you aren't concerned about prestige... The T-20 programs aren't always synonymous with providing the best surgical training. It should help getting an academic appointment though. One of my attendings came from a T-20 residency and she urged me to avoid applying there, saying she felt like she needed to do a fellowship in order to feel competent practicing on her own due to lack of autonomy in the OR.

Heard this before as well, that going to one of those places is great if you want to do academics, but if you want to be a surgeon and operate, you may not feel ready at the end.

 

[libertyyne]

As far as the research year goes, I'll ask @libertyyne to chime in, because I'm not as familiar with the utility of research years in neurosurg. I imagine that it will help you if you're productive and impress if you're hoping to land interviews at the most competitive programs, especially coming from a low tier school. But it will likely hurt you if you're not productive.

What you said about AOA is correct. I don't want to downplay AOA. It can give you a big boost, especially if you're deficient in one of the other areas (step or pubs), but it's not the end all be all and it's not even close to a requirement. You should treat the other two like hard, nonnegotiable requirements, because they basically are. AOA can be more of a bonus, depending.

Personally, I would find out what your school's nomination criteria is before anything. If it's something that you think is achievable, then have at it.

About the tutoring, sounds good!

No problem!

There isn’t one consensus on taking a research year. Usually if people have weak research portfolios or weak step scores they take one to augment their app.

Some people take prestigious research years To separate themselves from the pac


OP there isn’t a plan that survived an encounter with the enemy.

step 1 , 2ck
Research/ relationship with your home program.
Clinical evals.

 

[longhaul3]

Something to think about if you aren't concerned about prestige... The T-20 programs aren't always synonymous with providing the best surgical training. It should help getting an academic appointment though. One of my attendings came from a T-20 residency and she urged me to avoid applying there, saying she felt like she needed to do a fellowship in order to feel competent practicing on her own due to lack of autonomy in the OR.

Heard this before as well, that going to one of those places is great if you want to do academics, but if you want to be a surgeon and operate, you may not feel ready at the end.

This is true in my specialty and was the main reason (along with location, not to be underestimated both for QoL and resident operative autonomy) I ranked a bunch of "clinical" programs higher than the "academic" ones. I ended up at one of the high-volume clinical powerhouses and was extremely pleased.

Part of this deficiency is mitigated by the fact that these graduates of "academic" programs are looking for academic careers, and would have to do a subspecialty fellowship to get an academic position regardless. But at the end of the day I went into surgery to become a surgeon, and I wanted the best surgical training.

 

[altblue]

You got it man. I can see that you've got the lifestyle down. You've set yourself up for success already.



Histo and anatomy are low yield, especially histo. For anatomy, you can just incorporate the 100 concepts deck into your setup when preparing for step. It's a smallish deck (<500) that has everything you need for anatomy other than the Zanki MSK deck.

I would say pathoma isn't strictly necessary (it's basically all in FA), but it is so freaking high yield that I would caution against not using it. Like 99% of the 250+ scorers swear by it, especially the first 3 chapters.

I'd recommend listening to Pappi Goljan. He is an amazing man. He reviews pathophys, integrates across subjects, and gives you tips on how to think like the test writers. Extremely, extremely entertaining, lol. It is hard to forget what he says because he is so funny and interesting. I'd recommend listening to him when you've started covering path. That could be first or second year, depending on your curriculum.

even in NBME exams, the histo images, in relation to pathology, are massive, massive clues to the pathology questions even if they aren't necessary to answer the questions. idk about you, a histo image is easier to remember than three to five symptoms as well and oftentimes it's highly specific to just one disease.

 

[slowthai]

even in NBME exams, the histo images, in relation to pathology, are massive, massive clues to the pathology questions even if they aren't necessary to answer the questions. idk about you, a histo image is easier to remember than three to five symptoms as well and oftentimes it's highly specific to just one disease.

I agree. I was really talking about general histo, like knowing what a corpus albicans looks like, not histopath. In Zanki, you've got a ton of histology specific to diseases, like Councilman bodies, psammoma bodies, and Schuffner dots. Knowing that stuff is essential for step.

 

[ExplodingUlcers]

For me, I get all I need for path from osmosis and BnB. Honestly when I watch pathoma, I’m mostly just getting the same info. I have occasionally watched it for the odd thing that isn’t in the other resources.

Osmosis is pretty cool. I don't use it very often but I definitely see the appeal.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

 

[A_Knowbody]

Incoming MS1 as well to lower tier MD. I'm wondering if this changes for more moderately competitive specialities. I'm currently interested in anesthesia, OB/GYN, IM-subs with a primary focus on clinical practice. I'm most concerned about the research component, having 0 past experience with research.

I don't necessarily want to enter med school gunning, but I don't want to fall behind on experiences that may limit my ability to pursue fields that interest me. I favor balance, want to be involved in the community around my school, and want some semblance of a social life in addition to doing well enough in my classes. Am I asking for too much? If it really came down to it, I'd sacrifice some of those things for grades (my preclinical is HP/P/F) and needed ECs. Would the same advice above apply to my situation?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Osmosis is pretty cool. I don't use it very often but I definitely see the appeal.

Sent from my SM-G955U using SDN mobile

Yeah, I like the new high yield path videos. Basically pathoma but with better visuals. Not hating on pathoma though.

 

[deleted1005514]

Incoming MS1 as well to lower tier MD. I'm wondering if this changes for more moderately competitive specialities. I'm currently interested in anesthesia, OB/GYN, IM-subs with a primary focus on clinical practice. I'm most concerned about the research component, having 0 past experience with research.

I don't necessarily want to enter med school gunning, but I don't want to fall behind on experiences that may limit my ability to pursue fields that interest me. I favor balance, want to be involved in the community around my school, and want some semblance of a social life in addition to doing well enough in my classes. Am I asking for too much? If it really came down to it, I'd sacrifice some of those things for grades (my preclinical is HP/P/F) and needed ECs. Would the same advice above apply to my situation?

Always enter “gunning”...you can scale back later, but it’s much harder to scale up.

 

[slowthai]

Incoming MS1 as well to lower tier MD. I'm wondering if this changes for more moderately competitive specialities. I'm currently interested in anesthesia, OB/GYN, IM-subs with a primary focus on clinical practice. I'm most concerned about the research component, having 0 past experience with research.

I don't necessarily want to enter med school gunning, but I don't want to fall behind on experiences that may limit my ability to pursue fields that interest me. I favor balance, want to be involved in the community around my school, and want some semblance of a social life in addition to doing well enough in my classes. Am I asking for too much? If it really came down to it, I'd sacrifice some of those things for grades (my preclinical is HP/P/F) and needed ECs. Would the same advice above apply to my situation?

I think you should enter trying as hard as you can, and then scale back like @pagingdoctormom said if you want. That doesn't mean kill yourself. Gunning just means very working hard and pushing yourself to get the work done. It's a mindset.

You can totally have the balance that you want even while doing everything we've discussed earlier on. It just takes good time management and planning. If you lack those skills currently, I'd focus on school first and foremost. It can take some time to adjust to the lifestyle, and that's okay. After you get your bearings and figure everything out, then you can pursue other things.

I'd pursue research seriously still, because even though those are less to moderately competitive fields, you want every advantage you can have, especially with the new step p/f business.

 

[A_Knowbody]

A little bit a research can be helpful for any applicant. It sounds like you aren’t shooting for top programs you should do the best you can. If you want to be at a top program coming from a low ranked med school, you more or less need AOA in addition to great board scores.

All of this can be done while being involved in your class community and enjoying your experience

Thanks for your input. I'm not shooting for a top program. Not that I wouldn't go if accepted and it fit city / lifestyle, but I don't think it's needed for my career goals.

Always enter “gunning”...you can scale back later, but it’s much harder to scale up.

Fair point. I want to perform to the best of my abilities and dedicate the time that I need to be successful. I just don't want to enter with a mindset of competing with my classmates. Maybe I have a negative outlook on what it means to be gunning, but everyone has different goals they want to accomplish!

 

[A_Knowbody]

I think you should enter trying as hard as you can, and then scale back like @pagingdoctormom said if you want. That doesn't mean kill yourself. Gunning just means very working hard and pushing yourself to get the work done. It's a mindset.

You can totally have the balance that you want even while doing everything we've discussed earlier on. It just takes good time management and planning. If you lack those skills currently, I'd focus on school first and foremost. It can take some time to adjust to the lifestyle, and that's okay. After you get your bearings and figure everything out, then you can pursue other things.

I'd pursue research seriously still, because even though those are less to moderately competitive fields, you want every advantage you can have, especially with the new step p/f business.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems like I'm on the right track!

I'll look into research opportunities. I appreciate the advice.

 

[slowthai]

Thanks for the clarification. It seems like I'm on the right track!

I'll look into research opportunities. I appreciate the advice.

No problem!

 

[slowthai]

Fair point. I want to perform to the best of my abilities and dedicate the time that I need to be successful. I just don't want to enter with a mindset of competing with my classmates. Maybe I have a negative outlook on what it means to be gunning, but everyone has different goals they want to accomplish!

Yeah, let me clarify this. Gunning has nothing to do with competition, at least for me. It's all about absolutely maximizing my performance and pursuing what I want with abandon.
Just ab-so-lute-ly giving it everything you've got.

Some people are driven by competition, and that's okay as well. Whatever helps you to be the best you can be. Just don't lose yourself in it, I would say.

Being a "gunner" or "gunning people down" is about taking out "the competition" by feeding them misinformation or intentionally making them look bad. These are the people most hate. They usually work very hard too. It can make these terms confusing, especially when everyone is using "gunner" to refer to both the people that work hard and the people that sabotage. You can gun without being a gunner.

You hear the term so often because people like to use it to talk down on others that work harder than them. It's their insecurity talking. It's ego defense, as @Ho0v-man eloquently put it.

For example, the average med student nowadays would 100% call me a gunner because I started Zanki from day 1 of M1. Totally ridiculous. It's the most logical thing to do and I actually end up working less hard (in a way) because I'm spreading out the workload over the entirety of preclinicals instead of waiting until the second half of M2 to start studying for step. It takes dedication and discipline to keep doing it day in and day out, though. Am I now a gunner because you feel bad about not doing what I'm doing? No. Address your insecurity and focus on yourself.