MSUCOM vs. Any other in-state MD (not UM)

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FBurnaby said:
I'm audibly laughing at anyone who thinks the central michigan is a better school than MSUCOM.

OP, get your prestigious MD in mount pleasant, study hard and keep all the doors open, And if all goes well match into one of MSUCOM's four OBGYN residencies. That CMU degree will make you stand out as well when applying to MSUCOM's MFM fellowship.
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Did you dun goof or did you mean that?
 
I think MSUCOM, for what it's worth, will be one of the best osteopathic schools to be graduating from when we do @femmegoblue. I don't think the DO apocalypse will hit MSUCOM student's that hard. Their residency spots will definitely survive the merger and I can't imagine them not atleast giving DO students a shot. I'm not too concerned.
 
FBurnaby said:
I'm audibly laughing at anyone who thinks the central michigan is a better school than MSUCOM.

OP, get your prestigious MD in mount pleasant, study hard and keep all the doors open, And if all goes well match into one of MSUCOM's four OBGYN residencies. That CMU degree will make you stand out as well when applying to MSUCOM's MFM fellowship.
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LOL point taken.
 
JB50 said:
I think MSUCOM, for what it's worth, will be one of the best osteopathic schools to be graduating from when we do @femmegoblue. I don't think the DO apocalypse will hit MSUCOM student's that hard. Their residency spots will definitely survive the merger and I can't imagine them not atleast giving DO students a shot. I'm not too concerned.
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I think you're right. I'm actually incredibly excited and I hope to see you there 🙂
 
@JB50 I'd like to hear a case for CMU being a better than MSU that doesn't boil down to a generic "a DO shuts more residency/fellowship doors than a MD" especially considering CMU has neither competitive residencies nor fellowships, as well as the fact that OP wants to practice obgyn in a state where half the physicians went to MSUCOM.
 
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FBurnaby said:
@JB50 I'd like to hear a case for CMU being a better than MSU that doesn't boil down to a generic "DO shuts more residency/fellowship doors than MD" especially considering CMU has neither competitive residencies nor fellowships, as well as the fact that OP wants to practice obgyn in a state where half the physicians went to MSUCOM.
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I think that's the really the only argument people have for cmu in particular. It's a fair one, but personally I loved every other thing about msucom over cmu and would definitely be unhappy with the curriculum style and rotation sites of cmu.
 
FBurnaby said:
@JB50 I'd like to hear a case for CMU being a better than MSU that doesn't boil down to a generic "a DO shuts more residency/fellowship doors than a MD" especially considering CMU has neither competitive residencies nor fellowships, as well as the fact that OP wants to practice obgyn in a state where half the physicians went to MSUCOM.
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Bro I was simply verifying that what you posted was what you meant lol I wholeheartedly agree 100% with you I was just confused if we were saying/thinking the same thing.
 
femmegoblue said:
I think you're right. I'm actually incredibly excited and I hope to see you there 🙂
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Even if you don't end up attending there I'm still gonna ask everyone if they are the real femmegoblue and everyone can think im the psycho student :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
FBurnaby said:
@JB50 I'd like to hear a case for CMU being a better than MSU that doesn't boil down to a generic "a DO shuts more residency/fellowship doors than a MD" especially considering CMU has neither competitive residencies nor fellowships, as well as the fact that OP wants to practice obgyn in a state where half the physicians went to MSUCOM.
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I understand your sentiments but If OP decided they want to do academic medicine or do research as a part of their career they will have a better shot doing so at CMU and will have the opportunity to pursue competitive research fellowships or even pursuing a physician scientist track at UM or even other states should OP decide to do something else or go somewhere else.

And isn't CMU cheaper than MSUCOM for IS students?


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@AlteredScale lol, if they changed their mind to become a physician scientist they can transition into the DO/PhD program and do research at a big ten academic center, not go to a newly opened state school whose mission is to make rural michigan PCPs. And tuition is essentially the same.
 
FBurnaby said:
@AlteredScale lol, if they changed their mind to become a physician scientist they can transition into the DO/PhD program and do research at a big ten academic center, not go to a newly opened state school whose mission is to make rural michigan PCPs. And tuition is essentially the same.
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You are seriously underestimating how much weight the MD pulls.... everything you say is true, but only in the small michigan medicine bubble, excluding UM... Guess which school will have surgical or IM matches to UM on a consistent basis?
 
FBurnaby said:
@AlteredScale lol, if they changed their mind to become a physician scientist they can transition into the DO/PhD program and do research at a big ten academic center, not go to a newly opened state school whose mission is to make rural michigan PCPs. And tuition is essentially the same.
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Understandable but if CMU was strictly focused on PCP they wouldn't have funneled money into creating a research initiative and establishing their research output.
Research funding: https://www.cmich.edu/colleges/cmed/Research/Pages/Grants.aspx
Research publications: https://www.cmich.edu/colleges/cmed/Documents/Research/Publications_presentations_14_15.pdf

How easy is it for someone to go from DO to DO PhD and why would you do that? You will be adding years and it isn't compensated completely compared to an MSTP. As a DO you have a harder time applying for research fellowships such as HHMI or any other ones.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
You are seriously underestimating how much weight the MD pulls.... everything you say is true, but only in the small michigan medicine bubble, excluding UM... Guess which school will have surgical or IM matches to UM on a consistent basis?
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MSUCOM?

U of M just affiliated itself with an osteopathic teaching hospital. But they hate dem DO's.

That's a fact btw. I didn't hear that from my uncle, grandma, dad, or sister, or the physician down the street to the left one block that I talked to for 5 minutes one day and now believe everything they say. Nor is it something I read on an internet forum of people trying to get into medical school giving advice to other people on how to be successful after medical school.







:flame:
 
JB50 said:
MSUCOM?

U of M just affiliated itself with an osteopathic teaching hospital. But they hate dem DO's.

That's a fact btw. I didn't hear that from my uncle, grandma, dad, or sister, or the physician down the street to the left one block that I talked to for 5 minutes one day and now believe everything they say. Nor is it something I read on an internet forum of people trying to get into medical school giving advice to other people on how to be successful after medical school.







:flame:
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Find me a DO in their IM or any of their surgical programs, let alone any MSUCOM presence over the course of many years. Facts are facts my friend, and you don't have any to back your position. Go look at PD surveys, resident lists, hell even match lists. CMU will put people in programs that your MSUCOM could only dream about on a consistent, yearly basis. Is it because it is a better school? Nope, it's because of two little letters. M.D. If you think otherwise then you have ignored every available fact.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Find me a DO in their IM or any of their surgical programs, let alone any MSUCOM presence over the course of many years. Facts are facts my friend, and you don't have any to back your position. Go look at PD surveys, resident lists, hell even match lists. CMU will put people in programs that your MSUCOM could only dream about on a consistent, yearly basis. Is it because it is a better school? Nope, it's because of two little letters. M.D. If you think otherwise then you have ignored every available fact.
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They don't even make MCards that say DO at UM. Seriously. The few DO's that are there still get ID cards that say MD.
 
I used DO/PhD example (see Andrea Amalfintano) to illustrate that if someone wants to be in academic medicine they won't be hindered in research as a med student like other DO schools, but the research opportunities of a big ten university and a statewide campus network are also open to those not in the dual program. I don't know about CMU research in detail but I have a feeling MSU outweighs it. Again yea, MSUCOM grad might get written off for research fellowships in NYC but will a CMU grad really have that much more of an advantage? Getting back to OP's situation, I still see no argument for going to CMU on the off chance she wants to become an academic oncologist in SF.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Find me a DO in their IM or any of their surgical programs, let alone any MSUCOM presence over the course of many years. Facts are facts my friend, and you don't have any to back your position. Go look at PD surveys, resident lists, hell even match lists. CMU will put people in programs that your MSUCOM could only dream about on a consistent, yearly basis. Is it because it is a better school? Nope, it's because of two little letters. M.D. If you think otherwise then you have ignored every available fact.
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Find me one from CMU.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Find me a DO in their IM or any of their surgical programs, let alone any MSUCOM presence over the course of many years. Facts are facts my friend, and you don't have any to back your position. Go look at PD surveys, resident lists, hell even match lists. CMU will put people in programs that your MSUCOM could only dream about on a consistent, yearly basis. Is it because it is a better school? Nope, it's because of two little letters. M.D. If you think otherwise then you have ignored every available fact.
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Lol okay pre-med. If you care so much about matching at UofM I hope you got accepted there because the only in-state school umich PDs want to take from is their own. You keep saying WILL which leads me to assume CMU hasn't even had their inaugural class match yet. The fact is if you want prestigious programs that lowly med schools "could only dream about" you shouldn't pick MSU and definitely not CMU.
 
FBurnaby said:
Lol okay pre-med. If you care so much about matching at UofM I hope you got accepted there because the only in-state school umich PDs want to take from is their own. You keep saying WILL which leads me to assume CMU hasn't even had their inaugural class match yet. The fact is if you want prestigious programs that lowly med schools "could only dream about" you shouldn't pick MSU and definitely not CMU.
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He's accepted to DO programs lol just saying.
 
FBurnaby said:
Lol okay pre-med. If you care so much about matching at UofM I hope you got accepted there because the only in-state school umich PDs want to take from is their own. You keep saying WILL which leads me to assume CMU hasn't even had their inaugural class match yet. The fact is if you want prestigious programs that lowly med schools "could only dream about" you shouldn't pick MSU and definitely not CMU.
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Yeah to be fair I'm pretty sure he is going to a DO school and from what I've seen on here he knows what he is talking about.
 
My mistake the post sounded like he was an incoming CMU student that could walk into umich derm after graduating.
 
JB50 said:
Find me one from CMU.
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Cute. You didn't address what I said. I thought you were all about "the facts"?

FBurnaby said:
Lol okay pre-med. If you care so much about matching at UofM I hope you got accepted there because the only in-state school umich PDs want to take from is their own. You keep saying WILL which leads me to assume CMU hasn't even had their inaugural class match yet. The fact is if you want prestigious programs that lowly med schools "could only dream about" you shouldn't pick MSU and definitely not CMU.
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Yep I'm a pre-med. Doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. Go look at any match list of first class MD programs. The best DO matches across the nation combined don't touch it. Sorry but the letters M.D. really help come residency time, until I see some actual evidence that says otherwise then I will not change my opinion. For what it's worth here is the match list of Oakland: https://www.oakland.edu/medicine/news/auto-list-news/ouwb-class-of-2016-residency-match

Now you're telling me that if these students were at MSU the outcome would be the same?
 
FBurnaby said:
the research opportunities of a big ten university and a statewide campus network are also open to those not in the dual program.
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I understand this but the research a CMU medical student could do by pursuing HHMI, CDC, AGA, MSKCC research fellowships and spend 8-10 weeks doing impactful research with strong leaders in their respected fields and, in my respectful opinion, would be found at UMich (for example, the AGA student fellowship has two faculty members who will host students both from UMich and none are from MSUCOM despite them being a "big ten" university).
FBurnaby said:
MSUCOM grad might get written off for research fellowships in NYC but will a CMU grad really have that much more of an advantage?
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Yes they would. For IM, CMU medicine grad would be have a shot at UPenn, BMC, UCSD, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, UMich, Mt Sinai (the actual Mt Sinai Hospital), Montefiore/Albert Einstein, UF Jacksonville, UChicago, Northwestern, UW, UTSW, UTMB, UUtah, UColorado, Tulane, Vandy, NYP, BWH, BIDMC, MGH, Duke, Yale, UNC, Tufts. MSUCOM grads would not. Many of these programs provide incredible research mentorship for their residents to continue their academic prospects. Yes I understand a DO PhD can help you get there and I have seen the MSUCOM DO PhD alumni page and they do in fact land some great places and can go into academics. But when we are comparing DO and MD the MD has a better shot at it plain and simple.
FBurnaby said:
I still see no argument for going to CMU on the off chance she wants to become an academic oncologist in SF.
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The faculty at UCSF mostly earned their medical degrees from top medical institutions with one from George Washington University. There are no DO's that are faculty there. Between an MD from CMU and a DO from MSU, the MD would have a better shot due to landing a strong IM residency (that a DO couldn't get), a strong heme/onc fellowship (that a DO could not probably land) and wit that gaining mentorship with the right leaders to gain independence and become a faculty member at a place like UCSF, UCLA, UCSD.
FBurnaby said:
he was an incoming CMU student that could walk into umich derm after graduating
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Wait this is probably possible though. UMich took a MSUCHM grad (a very new MD program) into there dermatology program: https://www.med.umich.edu/DERM/education/reslisting.shtml

--------

The CMU inaugural class will be graduating 2017. Will update this post to show the match list and point out placements that have never been touched by a DO graduate.

This isn't to degrade or denigrate choosing MSUCOM. Without a doubt amongst the DO world, MSUCOM is very very strong and @femmegoblue is going to be successful no matter what there. But there needs to be a firm understanding that despite CMU being a new school, there is still a bias out there and there will be programs that will select US MD medical graduates.
 
LutGholein said:
Which is why we all eagerly await CNU's match list!
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I honestly think everyone who thinks it will be a flop is a little bit in denial. I used to think that way but there really isn't any evidence to suggest that it will. I think it will put Touro and Western to shame.
 
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that there's a DO bias and there will be much more obstacles entering academic medicine, but pointing out that if someone thinks that by choosing CMU they're on their way to a prestigious academic center, they're fooling themselves.

For someone who wants to practice clinical medicine (especially in michigan) MSU is a much better option than CMU in my opinion. CMU has like four residencies (in sag-nasty), no fellowships, no established research centers, and no practicing alumni.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
Cute. You didn't address what I said. I thought you were all about "the facts"?



Yep I'm a pre-med. Doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about. Go look at any match list of first class MD programs. The best DO matches across the nation combined don't touch it. Sorry but the letters M.D. really help come residency time, until I see some actual evidence that says otherwise then I will not change my opinion. For what it's worth here is the match list of Oakland: https://www.oakland.edu/medicine/news/auto-list-news/ouwb-class-of-2016-residency-match

Now you're telling me that if these students were at MSU the outcome would be the same?
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Yawn
 
FBurnaby said:
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that there's a DO bias and there will be much more obstacles entering academic medicine, but pointing out that if someone thinks that by choosing CMU they're on their way to a prestigious academic center, they're fooling themselves.

For someone who wants to practice clinical medicine (especially in michigan) MSU is a much better option than CMU in my opinion. CMU has like four residencies (in sag-nasty), no fellowships, no established research centers, and no practicing alumni.
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In the MD world having your own residencies/alumni isn't a big deal because you have competitive mobility and aren't reliant on audition rotations like in the AOA residency world.

As we've seen with Oakland, CMU grads will be competitive at UM in fields closed to MSUCOM like IM.
 
I guess I'll revise my statement to: for those that want to practice medicine (and don't care about matching in "prestigious" programs) in michigan, MSU is a better choice.
 
I find the statement "just want to practice medicine" dubious. It's not just about "prestigious programs" it's about keeping ALL options open. Why close doors on yourself before you even start medical school? If you are provided the opportunity to go to an MD program you should take it.


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FBurnaby said:
I guess I'll revise my statement to: for those that want to practice medicine (and don't care about matching in "prestigious" programs) in michigan, MSU is a better choice.
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Why would you say that? In the post merger era, there are very few doors that would be shut by going to CMU (only prior AOA programs choosing to remain exclusively DO for pride reasons) while going to MSUCOM closes many doors at UM and in the majority of competitive specialty programs within the state.
 
@AlteredScale I don't see what's dubious about that, the majority of my classmates want to match in michigan and practice here, the massive statewide residency network isn't suddenly going to shun MSU grads post merger. I'm not disagreeing with you about keeping all your options open but responding to OPs specific career plans.
 
FBurnaby said:
@AlteredScale I don't see what's dubious about that, the majority of my classmates want to match in michigan and practice here, the massive statewide residency network isn't suddenly going to shun MSU grads post merger. I'm not disagreeing with you about keeping all your options open but responding to OPs specific career plans.
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Again, in Michigan post merger, no residency programs outside of a few former AOA programs choosing to continue to only take DOs, will be out of reach to CMU grads. The same can't be said for MSU when a large portion of the programs at UM and probably select specialties at Beaumont and Ford are out of reach.
 
I didn't read through this entire thread OP, but I can tell you some of the best docs I've met have come out of MSUCOM. It is consistently regarded as one of the best DO schools. I don't know much about the other program, but take into consideration what @AlteredScale is writing closely.
 
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t5Nitro said:
I didn't read through this entire thread OP, but I can tell you some of the best docs I've met have come out of MSUCOM. It is consistently regarded as one of the best DO schools. I don't know much about the other program, but take into consideration what @AlteredScale is writing closely.
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I definitely agree. MSUCOM is one of the very best DO schools out there.
 
https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/anesthesiology/2016-17-intern-class
Look!! 2 MSUCOMers matched into UM's anesthesia residency

I actually believe that if you want to match into a competitive specialty like Urology or Ortho, you're better off going to MSUCOM because you won't have much MD competition for those competitive specialty DO spots. I know a Urology resident who was accepted to Wayne State, but chose to go to MSUCOM cause he knew he wanted to match into Urology. He said if he chose to go to wayne he didn't think his stats would've been competitive to get Urology in the MD match. There are certain advantages you get from being a DO in that you can still get competitive specialties with mediocre test scores as long as you work hard and have a good personality. Whereas if you're an MD and get poor board scores, your specialty options are limited.

I did skip the DO match cause I was going for psychiatry MD spots and I definitely noticed bias (well, I also didn't take the USMLE so that probably hurt me too). Other DOs also agreed that many psychiatry programs were not as DO-friendly as others.
 
DrMeowMeow said:
https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/anesthesiology/2016-17-intern-class
Look!! 2 MSUCOMers matched into UM's anesthesia residency

I actually believe that if you want to match into a competitive specialty like Urology or Ortho, you're better off going to MSUCOM because you won't have much MD competition for those competitive specialty DO spots. I know a Urology resident who was accepted to Wayne State, but chose to go to MSUCOM cause he knew he wanted to match into Urology. He said if he chose to go to wayne he didn't think his stats would've been competitive to get Urology in the MD match. There are certain advantages you get from being a DO in that you can still get competitive specialties with mediocre test scores as long as you work hard and have a good personality. Whereas if you're an MD and get poor board scores, your specialty options are limited.

I did skip the DO match cause I was going for psychiatry MD spots and I definitely noticed bias (well, I also didn't take the USMLE so that probably hurt me too). Other DOs also agreed that many psychiatry programs were not as DO-friendly as others.
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1. Gas is now pretty open for DOs due to overall drop in competitiveness.
2. Urology story does not apply post merger.
 
DrMeowMeow said:
https://medicine.umich.edu/dept/anesthesiology/2016-17-intern-class
Look!! 2 MSUCOMers matched into UM's anesthesia residency

I actually believe that if you want to match into a competitive specialty like Urology or Ortho, you're better off going to MSUCOM because you won't have much MD competition for those competitive specialty DO spots. I know a Urology resident who was accepted to Wayne State, but chose to go to MSUCOM cause he knew he wanted to match into Urology. He said if he chose to go to wayne he didn't think his stats would've been competitive to get Urology in the MD match. There are certain advantages you get from being a DO in that you can still get competitive specialties with mediocre test scores as long as you work hard and have a good personality. Whereas if you're an MD and get poor board scores, your specialty options are limited.

I did skip the DO match cause I was going for psychiatry MD spots and I definitely noticed bias (well, I also didn't take the USMLE so that probably hurt me too). Other DOs also agreed that many psychiatry programs were not as DO-friendly as others.
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Sorry but I'm not sure I agree with you. PDs can simply screen away DOs/IMGs/FMGs using ERAS filters. So a nice personality won't do much since you won't even get an interview at programs because as a DO you're still an independent applicant and not a US graduate.

Also, would you really take a DO program even MSUCOM with no in house urology faculty to do research with over Wayne state with an actual urology department and in house residency? If a Wayne state urology director had a Wayne state MD grad with 238 but letters from in house urology letters and research Would they really be less competitive than an MSUCOM DO grad with letters from a community urology preceptor and a 250? I have high doubts.

And beyond that comparison as I've said before, there are Wayne state grads matching to UW, UCSF, UCLA, Mass Gen, UMich for IM and many surgical specialties. MSUCOM won't even send their grads there outside of perhaps PM&R, FM, Path. Not that there's anything wrong with those specialties at all btw. But you're limited.


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DrBowtie said:
1. Gas is now pretty open for DOs due to overall drop in competitiveness.
2. Urology story does not apply post merger.
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Urology story does still apply post merger because those urology DO residencies are still mainly taking DOs. The PDs at my base hospital say they're not going to take MDs post merger unless they're absolutely forced to accept 1 as a token. Why would they betray their own kind by suddenly taking a bunch of MDs in a historically DO residency just because they have better grades?

AlteredScale doesn't understand what I'm saying about the Urology thing. I'm saying if you're a DO going for Urology you have a better chance of getting it by going for osteopathic Urology spots. A DO going for Urology wouldn't even consider applying to ACGME residencies. If you're at Wayne and get terrible step scores then you obviously have zero chance of landing an MD Urology spot with all that competition, plus you'd have no chance at the DO Urology spots either. Yes, I'm sure MD Urology residencies have more research and prestige and blah blah blah, but this group of applicants don't care about that stuff. They just want to become Urologists period. I'm pretty sure all of the osteopathic hospitals that offer Urology residencies are affiliated with msucom too since they are base hospitals where students are sent to
 
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