My eternal struggle: MD or PhD? Advice needed

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Goro said:
Yes. But just say you have an open mind on everything. You never know when cardiology might bite you in the ass and you find your true love


No to a PHD
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Why no to a PhD? Just curious.
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Imagine going thru 4yrs of medical school + residency (assuming you want to be licensed) w/ the sole intention of landing a field epidemiology job that has a requirement of a masters degree. Takes maybe 2 yrs tops, far less work and effort, significantly lower tuition, etc. In addition, I'm quite confident an MPH or a degree in biostats is more attractive than an MD or PhD when it comes to landing an epidemiology job.
 
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Beezlebub said:
Imagine going thru 4yrs of medical school + residency (assuming you want to be licensed) w/ the sole intention of landing a field epidemiology job that has a requirement of a masters degree. Takes maybe 2 yrs tops, far less work and effort, significantly lower tuition, etc. In addition, I'm quite confident an MPH or a degree in biostats is more attractive than an MD or PhD when it comes to landing an epidemiology job.
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I left out many details from my original post. :p

I have thought about an MPH only, and taken a couple classes/asked people in the field. With an MPH only, I would not be able to do research really again, and getting to levels of authority would be difficult. I definitely want a doctoral degree.

I have thought about this more than it comes across in my post haha. And I'm not nearly as pessimistic or bitter either. Just frustrated and saving room. :p
 
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Back when I was in high school, I considered the route you're interested in (I was a crazy high school senior, lol), and when I did research, it was clear to me that the CDC loves MDs for the EIS. I completely understand your interest in field work. I think that for you, the best option would be to do an MD/MPH. You might even have a shot without the MPH if you have ample public health research experience, although the degree can only help you. The combo would be make you very attractive for the EIS.

Here's my take on things. I don't think getting an MD because you want to be an applied epidemiologist is a bad thing. We need doctors working in the field, which is why the EIS exists in the first place. By working in this field, you'll get to help communities, which is clearly something you want. It may not be a traditional path, but I don't think it's a bad one. People can be self righteous about their reasons for becoming a physician - but the thing is, everyone has a different reason. Wanting to do the EIS in my opinion, is a pretty good damn reason.
 
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Lost In Transcription said:
Most people in the positions I want are MDs,
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With this, you have answered your own question. When we are children we get asked what we want to be when we grow up. Perhaps the better question is who we want to be?

Lost In Transcription said:
and I can easily see how being a physician would be useful for the field. But most of what you would learn in med school also seems irrelevant.
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Your problem here is that you don't know what you don't know, and seem to be operating under some misconceptions about medical school. The "irrelevance" you note isn't a bug, it's a feature of a broad-based education on human biology and behavior. An astute physician will know at least something about pretty much anything in this realm. That's what gives the degree its power in terms of being able to see people in context and home in on the important questions, be they diagnostic or research-based.
 
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Hey, I made a somewhat similar post a while ago (didn't get many answers though lol). If I was in your exact situation, I would 100% recommend the MD. You can get much, much farther in public health with a clinical degree, particularly if you are interested in fieldwork. One real concern would be loan repayment, as you likely would cap out around 200k, MAYBE 250k salary working in public health with an MD, unless you're doing some crazy important job or working at a hospital in public health. Another consideration would be that there is a huge need for public health practitioner MDs, but not always necessarily epi specific MDs (although I'm sure you would easily find epi MD jobs if you are qualified, but they are not as abundant as other types of PH work). For example, people to run local health departments, run chronic disease prevention programs, etc. I am assuming you have all of your prereqs done and are in a place to go to med school and if I was in your position I would do it with no hesitation. The only reason I am deciding for myself is that I would be slightly older starting my MD, don't have all the prereqs, only have a 3.4 gpa from undergrad, and am concerned about leaving my public health career and not getting into med school and then having difficulty getting a PH job again.

The people who are saying you can do the exact same thing with an MPH are very incorrect. You really need a clinical degree to do the stuff you are talking about. An MD will allow you to do more in public health and rise through the ranks faster. However, you also probably could do much of what you want with a nursing license and MPH. I know several nurses (RNs and NPs) at the CDC who do very similar work to many MDs at the CDC. You will just be less likely to get into higher supervisor roles and depending on what CIO you are working in, may have less autonomy than someone with an MD. But I think you would also have a fulfilling career with that route and it is much lower time/money investment. You wouldn't be able to do EIS but you can do a lot of work similar to EIS officers at CDC. EIS is just a way to get in or get experience for some people, many people who are doing the exact same work as EIS officers don't necessarily have an MD or a PhD. But if you want the most fulfilling public health career MD is definitely the way to go (you can get an MD and MPH too if you want but it's definitely not necessary either).
 
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You don't need to get into a top school to achieve your career goal.
 
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following this post because it nails basically everything I am trying to do as well- Emory has strong connections to the CDC and I would assume an MD MPH there would give a big advantage. are all the other schools that feed into the EIS top tier? is it hypercompetitive for MDs?


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for example one of the EIS officers I saw was a grad of UCSF. is that the norm?


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1forrest1 said:
for example one of the EIS officers I saw was a grad of UCSF. is that the norm?


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It is a public service job and you are hired by the government. Both of those things usually lead to lower salary compared to what equivalent skills would fetch on the private market and reduced preference for big name institutions. If you have a degree from an accredited institution and match their critieria and submit your app correctly you usually have a decent chance of landing a job, coupled with the fact that it pays less means less competition as an MD. I am willing to bet the UCSF doc really wanted to do that work.
 
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tessellations said:
Back when I was in high school, I considered the route you're interested in (I was a crazy high school senior, lol), and when I did research, it was clear to me that the CDC loves MDs for the EIS. I completely understand your interest in field work. I think that for you, the best option would be to do an MD/MPH. You might even have a shot without the MPH if you have ample public health research experience, although the degree can only help you. The combo would be make you very attractive for the EIS.

Here's my take on things. I don't think getting an MD because you want to be an applied epidemiologist is a bad thing. We need doctors working in the field, which is why the EIS exists in the first place. By working in this field, you'll get to help communities, which is clearly something you want. It may not be a traditional path, but I don't think it's a bad one. People can be self righteous about their reasons for becoming a physician - but the thing is, everyone has a different reason. Wanting to do the EIS in my opinion, is a pretty good damn reason.
Click to expand...

shouldibeadoc said:
Hey, I made a somewhat similar post a while ago (didn't get many answers though lol). If I was in your exact situation, I would 100% recommend the MD. You can get much, much farther in public health with a clinical degree, particularly if you are interested in fieldwork. One real concern would be loan repayment, as you likely would cap out around 200k, MAYBE 250k salary working in public health with an MD, unless you're doing some crazy important job or working at a hospital in public health. Another consideration would be that there is a huge need for public health practitioner MDs, but not always necessarily epi specific MDs (although I'm sure you would easily find epi MD jobs if you are qualified, but they are not as abundant as other types of PH work). For example, people to run local health departments, run chronic disease prevention programs, etc. I am assuming you have all of your prereqs done and are in a place to go to med school and if I was in your position I would do it with no hesitation. The only reason I am deciding for myself is that I would be slightly older starting my MD, don't have all the prereqs, only have a 3.4 gpa from undergrad, and am concerned about leaving my public health career and not getting into med school and then having difficulty getting a PH job again.

The people who are saying you can do the exact same thing with an MPH are very incorrect. You really need a clinical degree to do the stuff you are talking about. An MD will allow you to do more in public health and rise through the ranks faster. However, you also probably could do much of what you want with a nursing license and MPH. I know several nurses (RNs and NPs) at the CDC who do very similar work to many MDs at the CDC. You will just be less likely to get into higher supervisor roles and depending on what CIO you are working in, may have less autonomy than someone with an MD. But I think you would also have a fulfilling career with that route and it is much lower time/money investment. You wouldn't be able to do EIS but you can do a lot of work similar to EIS officers at CDC. EIS is just a way to get in or get experience for some people, many people who are doing the exact same work as EIS officers don't necessarily have an MD or a PhD. But if you want the most fulfilling public health career MD is definitely the way to go (you can get an MD and MPH too if you want but it's definitely not necessary either).
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I know I will want either the heavy research component or the ability to treat patients, so I know MPH only isn't for me.

Also, the thing about MDs being accepted significantly more to things like EIS is that even IN EIS, 30-40% of the officers are PhD level scientists. That Emory program I mentioned earlier stated that some of their grads go on to be EIS officers basically every year. So clearly PhD level scientists play some sort of role in this type of field work. My problem is finding exactly WHAT they do. Emailing doesn't usually get responses and googling endlessly only brings me so far.
 
Lost In Transcription said:
I know I will want either the heavy research component or the ability to treat patients, so I know MPH only isn't for me.

Also, the thing about MDs being accepted significantly more to things like EIS is that even IN EIS, 30-40% of the officers are PhD level scientists. That Emory program I mentioned earlier stated that some of their grads go on to be EIS officers basically every year. So clearly PhD level scientists play some sort of role in this type of field work. My problem is finding exactly WHAT they do. Emailing doesn't usually get responses and googling endlessly only brings me so far.
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Why don't you just call the department or speak with someone already in the program. It seems silly to base an entire CV based on what some posters on a Peruvian mango afficionado board are saying.
 
libertyyne said:
Why don't you just call the department or speak with someone already in the program. It seems silly to base an entire CV based on what some posters on a Peruvian mango afficionado board are saying.
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I mean...I'm trying. :p I've only been able to speak with MDs about the program to date.

Just figured it didn't hurt to ask around here. Sometimes people have surprising backgrounds/advice here.
 
I know this thread is a bit old (sorry for the necro) but I'm just curious as to what you've decided to do @Lost In Transcription ? Your goals and conflicted feelings about the MD vs PhD/DrPH perfectly mirror mine. EIS/field epidemiology would be a dream but it just seems like such a long road to get there. And there are so many paths and so little concrete info on how to get there.
 
MarcusAureliusAntoninus said:
I know this thread is a bit old (sorry for the necro) but I'm just curious as to what you've decided to do @Lost In Transcription ? Your goals and conflicted feelings about the MD vs PhD/DrPH perfectly mirror mine. EIS/field epidemiology would be a dream but it just seems like such a long road to get there. And there are so many paths and so little concrete info on how to get there.
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PhD in infectious diseases with relevant work experience in the field leading directly to public health. I've just made sure to work with an advisor/program that has the ability to do that!
 
Lost In Transcription said:
PhD in infectious diseases with relevant work experience in the field leading directly to public health. I've just made sure to work with an advisor/program that has the ability to do that!
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Wow congrats!

May I ask what nudged you to the PhD route over the MD route? Also may I ask which program/uni this PhD is at? Sounds interesting!
 
Gastrapathy said:
Ugh. So many fewer opportunities than the MD ->IM -> ID path. Good luck.
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I know! But it comes down to what you want to be doing later. Being that far in debt would not work out for my career, whereas every year in this PhD program people come out doing what I want.

Winning a couple very prestigious research awards helped me. I found a program that works in conjunction with the CDC to dump people into the analysis positions I want.

I can always go to medical school if I wish as well, later on.
 
1forrest1 said:
@Goro @gyngyn @LizzyM would an applicant who mentions this as a potential career aspiration be viewed negatively? Is there any chance it could hurt that applicant

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I personally wouldn't ding the candidate if they told me that this was their career path, but I suspect that my clinical colleagues would. Our mission is, after all, to train doctors, and not researchers.
 
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Goro said:
I personally wouldn't ding the candidate if they told me that this was their career path, but I suspect that my clinical colleagues would. Our mission is, after all, to train doctors, and not researchers.
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I got told similar advice.
 
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