My friend just got into a DO school...is this typical with his profile?

[csx]

my friend had a high sGPA/cGPA (+3.5 in both) and a 28 MCAT and was accepted this cycle. His #'s are great!

EC's though....he had zero shadowing whats-o-ever, no leadership positions, no research, and no Doctor LOR. They had clinical volunteering for their last 2 years and he worked at his father's law firm for 2 years which is atypical I guess but its also your dad (im not sure if that's a knock for adcomms but it is in my book sorta). They didn't mention non-clinical volunteering but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

EC wise, I don't think my friend has anything impressive. Does anybody agree with me on this? For those that do agree with me, is it typical for a person with good #'s and unimpressive EC's to get into a DO school??

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[baxt1412]

those are sort of average DO numbers. GPA may be higher than some, but idk that I would consider it a "good" GPA.

That's great for him, i'm glad he got in.


It is atypical to get into a place that you will take out a 6 figure amount of debt without any proof that you know what you're truly getting into.

 

[csx]

Other opinions are welcome!

@user3 : what say you? (hopefully this is the right guy im thinking of (the one who gives insightful underdawg inspiration)

 

[Osteopath999]

my friend had a high sGPA/cGPA (+3.5 in both) and a 28 MCAT and was accepted this cycle. His #'s are great!

EC's though....he had zero shadowing whats-o-ever, no leadership positions, no research, and no Doctor LOR. They had clinical volunteering for their last 2 years and he worked at his father's law firm for 2 years which is atypical I guess but its also your dad (im not sure if that's a knock for adcomms but it is in my book sorta). They didn't mention non-clinical volunteering but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

EC wise, I don't think my friend has anything impressive. Does anybody agree with me on this? For those that do agree with me, is it typical for a person with good #'s and unimpressive EC's to get into a DO school??

Putting his numerical stats aside, for DO schools, A physician's LOR is one of the REQUIRED documents that must be submitted in order for his application to be complete. I am very surprised and cannot believe that he can get in a DO school without a LOR from a physician. I would be curious to know which school that accepted him and the super outstanding quality that he possesses that made the school choose him. So, it is absolutely strange and atypical to me...

 

[csx]

Putting his numerical stats aside, for DO schools, A physician's LOR is one of the REQUIRED documents that must be submitted in order for his application to be complete. I am very surprised and cannot believe that he can get in a DO school without a LOR from a physician. I would be curious to know which school that accepted him and the super outstanding quality that he possesses that made the school choose him. So, it is absolutely strange and atypical to me...

I assumed (i should have mentioned...didn't know this LOR was a requirement) no physician LOR since they didn't shadow anybody. I feel like that is a fair assumption on my part. Is it not? (didnt shadow anybody...how could they write you an LOR?)

I think (not sure) they got accepted into one of those schools where if you dont have a DO LOR they hook u up with a DO to shadow prior to entry...regardless, I can see someone not being able to find a DO to shadow but 0 excuse for not finding a MD to shadow which are everywhere.

 

[Osteopath999]

I assumed (i should have mentioned...didn't know this LOR was a requirement) no physician LOR since they didn't shadow anybody. I feel like that is a fair assumption on my part. Is it not? (didnt shadow anybody...how could they write you an LOR?)

I think (not sure) they got accepted into one of those schools where if you dont have a DO LOR they hook u up with a DO to shadow prior to entry...regardless, I can see someone not being able to find a DO to shadow but 0 excuse for not finding a MD to shadow which are everywhere.

So that is just your assumption !
Most DO schools require either MD or DO LoR (DO is preferred as always). very few schools require DO only, no MD substitution, but an MD LoR sometimes can be submitted in order to meet the requirement for the application to be complete and then they can hook up with a DO later at the school to provide the DO LoR or you have to find and shadow a DO to obtain a LoR before matriculation. So the idea is generally that a physician letter is a must-have to make your application complete and it is a must-have if you get accepted. If your friend didnt do any shadowing, then I have no idea how he can get LoRs from physician, or maybe he has connection with a doctor and it is easier for him to have physician LoR w/o having to shadow; but this is rare... Anws, if he has true passion of learning medicine and compassion for others to improve their health quality.. Then i'm glad that he got accepted. I dont advocate judging anyone or discussing someone's ability to get into medical school because everyone is unique and the things that you dont see from them might not mean that they dont have anything else to compensate for those weaknesses. So, I believe that he must have something outstanding to be able to gain medical school acceptance.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

The only school I remember that accepts without any LOR at all is MSUCOM. That being said, I can believe it, especially if he was in state.

 

[ananasmed]

What is the purpose of this "he-said-she-said"-esque speculative thread?

 

[csx]

how do you think his EC's were? good..bad...average?

 

[Uafl112]

I assumed (i should have mentioned...didn't know this LOR was a requirement) no physician LOR since they didn't shadow anybody. I feel like that is a fair assumption on my part. Is it not? (didnt shadow anybody...how could they write you an LOR?)
I think (not sure) they got accepted into one of those schools where if you dont have a DO LOR they hook u up with a DO to shadow prior to entry...regardless, I can see someone not being able to find a DO to shadow but 0 excuse for not finding a MD to shadow which are everywhere.

I got a DO letter of rec without shadowing. When he told me he couldnt let me shadow cause of the VA, I asked him if it would be ok if he wrote me a letter of rec on the conditions that I meet with him and he gets to know me. We had an hour long conversation about the state of medicine. He wrote me one.

 

[PlaqueBuster]

I still do not understand these "my friend, my sister, my brother...." emails. Why do you care how others got in? If you are interested then you should ask us questions about yourself and what you have to do. Comparing yourself with someone else is always dangerous because you probably don't know the entire story and you will start adjusting your goals to match their numbers/resume.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

I still do not understand these "my friend, my sister, my brother...." emails. Why do you care how others got in? If you are interested then you should ask us questions about yourself and what you have to do. Comparing yourself with someone else is always dangerous because you probably don't know the entire story and you will start adjusting your goals to match their numbers/resume.

Truth

 

[csx]

I still do not understand these "my friend, my sister, my brother...." emails. Why do you care how others got in? If you are interested then you should ask us questions about yourself and what you have to do. Comparing yourself with someone else is always dangerous because you probably don't know the entire story and you will start adjusting your goals to match their numbers/resume.

I wasn't comparing. I just thought it was strange someone with glaring deficits in their EC's got in and wasn't sure if that is typical or atypical.

 

[AlteredScale]

Where was he accepted to?

 

[Lawgiver]

why do people assume friends are always honest?

 

[Goro]

Numbers-wise, looks like my typical student. The ECs are suspect and I'm surprised that he was accepted without a doctor's LOR...I was under the impression that all the COMs required one.

Was it one of the newer COMs?

my friend had a high sGPA/cGPA (+3.5 in both) and a 28 MCAT and was accepted this cycle. His #'s are great!

EC's though....he had zero shadowing whats-o-ever, no leadership positions, no research, and no Doctor LOR. They had clinical volunteering for their last 2 years and he worked at his father's law firm for 2 years which is atypical I guess but its also your dad (im not sure if that's a knock for adcomms but it is in my book sorta). They didn't mention non-clinical volunteering but i'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

EC wise, I don't think my friend has anything impressive. Does anybody agree with me on this? For those that do agree with me, is it typical for a person with good #'s and unimpressive EC's to get into a DO school??

 

[karling]

PCOM only requires a pre-medical LOR or 3 faculty LORs. They do not require a physician LOR. I have not heard anything about whether they actually do accept students without one, but I don't believe it's mentioned at all, either required or strongly recommended or otherwise. They do add "* Please note that this is the only letter REQUIREMENT, however, we will accept additional letters from other sources."

 

[hallowmann]

PCOM only requires a pre-medical LOR or 3 faculty LORs. They do not require a physician LOR. I have not heard anything about whether they actually do accept students without one, but I don't believe it's mentioned at all, either required or strongly recommended or otherwise. They do add "* Please note that this is the only letter REQUIREMENT, however, we will accept additional letters from other sources."

PCOM is also one of the best and most competitive DO schools. I doubt many people (if any) get in without a doc letter. I know multiple people that applied and didn't get in to PCOM despite being from the area, having stats similar or better than OP's friend, having a DO letter from a PCOM alumnus and having years of research and clinical experience.

Most DO schools require or strongly recommend a DO letter. My guess is that OP was accepted to a school with low stats or that was new as a way for them to raise their MCAT score.

 

[Osteopath999]

PCOM only requires a pre-medical LOR or 3 faculty LORs. They do not require a physician LOR. I have not heard anything about whether they actually do accept students without one, but I don't believe it's mentioned at all, either required or strongly recommended or otherwise. They do add "* Please note that this is the only letter REQUIREMENT, however, we will accept additional letters from other sources."

Yes, you are right about PCOM. But essentially, the requirements/criteria are actually set by applicant pool not by the school, the school only sets the basic requirements. For example,
A school says an applicant must have at least 3.0 gpa, but in reality most applicants have 3.5 or above, in terms of GPA alone, would a barely 3.0 GPA students are preferred over a 3.5-gpa-or-above applicants? Everyone competes each other to get accepted to the medical program, everyone trying to get a physician LoR to enhance their application, so a physician LoR automatically becomes "Required" even though it is not required by PCOM

 

[Prncssbuttercup]

I got a letter from an MD that I didn't shadow. I did volunteer work with him, never shadowed...

 

[Anicetus]

My friend had recently just been accepted to two DO schools:
- 3.2 cGPA/sGPA
- 24 on MCAT
- Only a couple weeks of volunteering in a hospital (started in April before applying)
- No DO letters, only 2 from professors.
- No rewards or honors.


She didn't even realize she could still be a doctor because she was under the impression that only the top students in undergrad can be doctors. She discovered DO schools about 6 months ago so she is pretty psyched.

Just an example that you shouldn't be discouraged by anything lacking if you apply broadly enough and have a genuine interest in being a physician.

 

[user3]

My friend had recently just been accepted to two DO schools:
- 3.2 cGPA/sGPA
- 24 on MCAT
- Only a couple weeks of volunteering in a hospital (started in April before applying)
- No DO letters, only 2 from professors.
- No rewards or honors.


She didn't even realize she could still be a doctor because she was under the impression that only the top students in undergrad can be doctors. She discovered DO schools about 6 months ago so she is pretty psyched.

Just an example that you shouldn't be discouraged by anything lacking if you apply broadly enough and have a genuine interest in being a physician.

funny how it wasn't very long ago that I posted how numbers like these are competitive, and few people took me seriously.

what schools accepted her?

 

[snoozeandlose]

Does the Doctor's LOR need to be from a DO or can it be from either an MD/DO. And how would one get this LOR? Is shadowing a doctor for a day or two enough for him to give you an LOR?

 

[Osteopath999]

Does the Doctor's LOR need to be from a DO or can it be from either an MD/DO. And how would one get this LOR? Is shadowing a doctor for a day or two enough for him to give you an LOR?

Most schools require either MD or DO (DO is preferred). a few schools require DO only. Shadowing physician is a typical way to get your LoR.

 

[AlteredScale]

Does the Doctor's LOR need to be from a DO or can it be from either an MD/DO. And how would one get this LOR? Is shadowing a doctor for a day or two enough for him to give you an LOR?

There's this great thing called "AACOMAS CIB" which has just about every requirement but all DO schools, even specifics regarding letters of recommendation.

 

[costales]

My friend had recently just been accepted to two DO schools:
- 3.2 cGPA/sGPA
- 24 on MCAT
- Only a couple weeks of volunteering in a hospital (started in April before applying)
- No DO letters, only 2 from professors.
- No rewards or honors.


She didn't even realize she could still be a doctor because she was under the impression that only the top students in undergrad can be doctors. She discovered DO schools about 6 months ago so she is pretty psyched.

Just an example that you shouldn't be discouraged by anything lacking if you apply broadly enough and have a genuine interest in being a physician.

Name the schools.

 

[medickdb]

Please please please get as much medical exposure as possible before going to medical school. Those who don't, they have little to no idea of the realities. Sometimes, it's not until it's too late that they realize medicine really isn't for them.

This is one of the biggest favors you can do for yourself.

 

[Sean Lee]

My friend had recently just been accepted to two DO schools:
- 3.2 cGPA/sGPA
- 24 on MCAT
- Only a couple weeks of volunteering in a hospital (started in April before applying)
- No DO letters, only 2 from professors.
- No rewards or honors.


She didn't even realize she could still be a doctor because she was under the impression that only the top students in undergrad can be doctors. She discovered DO schools about 6 months ago so she is pretty psyched.

Just an example that you shouldn't be discouraged by anything lacking if you apply broadly enough and have a genuine interest in being a physician.

Oh wow...

I have a 3.6 cGPA/3.3 sGPA
33 MCAT
Intense DO shadowing + letter
A lot of volunteering (hospital and community)
Research as well
Minor awards

Only 2 DO IIs so far....

But to be fair, I wasn't complete until mid/late September.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

My friend had recently just been accepted to two DO schools:
- 3.2 cGPA/sGPA
- 24 on MCAT
- Only a couple weeks of volunteering in a hospital (started in April before applying)
- No DO letters, only 2 from professors.
- No rewards or honors.


She didn't even realize she could still be a doctor because she was under the impression that only the top students in undergrad can be doctors. She discovered DO schools about 6 months ago so she is pretty psyched.

Just an example that you shouldn't be discouraged by anything lacking if you apply broadly enough and have a genuine interest in being a physician.

Does this person have what it takes to get through medical school?

I know people with much higher stats that are struggling.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Does this person have what it takes to get through medical school?

I know people with much higher stats that are struggling.

I mean, they'll probably be at a higher risk of failure and etc for sure. A lot of low tier DO schools accept students like this and it contributes to having dismal drop out and failure rates.

But yah, schools like LUCOM would love for stats like this because they know they're not getting significantly better.

 

[user3]

Does this person have what it takes to get through medical school?

I know people with much higher stats that are struggling.

In before "no correlation between stats and med school/board performance" crowd.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

In before "no correlation between stats and med school/board performance" crowd.

I hate this crowd. The yes I have a 20 MCAT but I know I'm gonna be a great doctor crowd. No basis in reality. I do believe that once you meet the baseline you're OK (I believe that starts at 24 3.3 or 3.2 25 or 3.0 26) then you should be OK but you have to be able to learn some of the basic material.

 

[AlteredScale]

I hate this crowd. The yes I have a 20 MCAT but I know I'm gonna be a great doctor crowd. No basis in reality. I do believe that once you meet the baseline you're OK (I believe that starts at 24 3.3 or 3.2 25 or 3.0 26) then you should be OK but you have to be able to learn some of the basic material.

Agreed. I believe it was Goro who stated that there is evidence that anything below 24 composite will become a significant risk to completing boards and passing them the first time.

Not so sure about the use of GPA as a factor. I think a more detailed analysis is utilIzed here (taking multiple upper division bio courses and performing strongly in all of them)

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Agreed. I believe it was Goro who stated that there is evidence that anything below 24 composite will become a significant risk to completing boards and passing them the first time.

Not so sure about the use of GPA as a factor. I think a more detailed analysis is utilIzed here (taking multiple upper division bio courses and performing strongly in all of them)

Well I actually assume GPA includes upper level bio. I shouldn't but I do. Everyone at my university takes these classes. If you don't include them I agree. GPA isn't that valuable.

 

[SOOyC52H1Sof]

Oh wow...

I have a 3.6 cGPA/3.3 sGPA
33 MCAT
Intense DO shadowing + letter
A lot of volunteering (hospital and community)
Research as well
Minor awards

Only 2 DO IIs so far....

But to be fair, I wasn't complete until mid/late September.

I have 3.1 cgpa, 3.06 sgpa, 28 MCAT, and I got 13 out of a possible 14 secondaries. I received secondaries within about a week after submitting my primary. Have you considered calling the schools?

 

[Sean Lee]

I have 3.1 cgpa, 3.06 sgpa, 28 MCAT, and I got 13 out of a possible 14 secondaries. I received secondaries within about a week after submitting my primary. Have you considered calling the schools?

I am not talking about secondaries; I am talking about interviews. I've emailed 3 schools, and they all told me that they'll get to my app and told me to sit tight.

I think you might have mistaken II for secondaries. It actually stands for interview invite! Took me a while to realize, too.

 

[SOOyC52H1Sof]

I am not talking about secondaries; I am talking about interviews. I've emailed 3 schools, and they all told me that they'll get to my app and told me to sit tight.

I think you might have mistaken II for secondaries. It actually stands for interview invite! Took me a while to realize, too.

Ah I see. As you guessed, I didn't know that II stands for interviews.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I hate this crowd. The yes I have a 20 MCAT but I know I'm gonna be a great doctor crowd. No basis in reality. I do believe that once you meet the baseline you're OK (I believe that starts at 24 3.3 or 3.2 25 or 3.0 26) then you should be OK but you have to be able to learn some of the basic material.

The issue today is that many people see the mcat are a completely imperfect test with only use towards entering medical school. They completely try to make away with the reality that at least at one point they were measures to make sure people selected were capable of passing medical school.

The whole, getting in is the hard part thing needs to really stop. Some DO schools fail out nearly 20% of their class and even if you get in with low stats, it's not an indication that you will stay in.


But anywayyyy....... the OP getting into MSU is totally possible.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

The issue today is that many people see the mcat are a completely imperfect test with only use towards entering medical school. They completely try to make away with the reality that at least at one point they were measures to make sure people selected were capable of passing medical school.

The whole, getting in is the hard part thing needs to really stop. Some DO schools fail out nearly 20% of their class and even if you get in with low stats, it's not an indication that you will stay in.


But anywayyyy....... the OP getting into MSU is totally possible.

What school fails out 20%???

Lecom has 99% get through for example.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

What school fails out 20%???

Lecom has 99% get through for example.

WVSOM & LMU I believe have around that last time I checked the AOA site. You should go and double check this for me however.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

WVSOM & LMU I believe have around that last time I checked the AOA site. You should go and double check this for me however.

20 % seems high...

WVSOM & LMU I believe have around that last time I checked the AOA site. You should go and double check this for me however.

 

[user3]

WVSOM & LMU I believe have around that last time I checked the AOA site. You should go and double check this for me however.

20 % seems high...

according to AACOM, LMU's first class in 2007 had 160 students. Only 122 graduated in 2011.

Unless I'm missing something, that should have been grounds for probation.

Also don't understand why COCA didn't put WCU on probation when only 75% of their first class passed the COMLEX.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

according to AACOM, LMU's first class in 2007 had 160 students. Only 122 graduated in 2011.

Unless I'm missing something, that should have been grounds for probation.

Also don't understand why COCA didn't put WCU on probation when only 75% of their first class passed the COMLEX.

New schools are sketch

 

[csx]

New schools are sketch

would you say this b/c the schools curriculum is still in its infancy and ironing things out or would you say more b/c they recruit unqualified students?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

would you say this b/c the schools curriculum is still in its infancy and ironing things out or would you say more b/c they recruit unqualified students?

It's just put it this way, a poor student at a new school is going to have a higher chance of complications than a good student at an established school. As I've said before however, entrance stats do have meaning and they have the capacity to predict whether you'll do well or not. Many students unfortunately adhere to this, I don't care, i'll be a good doctor anyway thing regardless. And as such the foundations of the bottom tires of DO schools are formed, or in the cases of schools like LUCOM, the entire student body.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

according to AACOM, LMU's first class in 2007 had 160 students. Only 122 graduated in 2011.

Unless I'm missing something, that should have been grounds for probation.

Also don't understand why COCA didn't put WCU on probation when only 75% of their first class passed the COMLEX.

Their poor comlex pass rate, their poor rotations and reviews, I don't know how COCA chose to ignore this. I mean for goodness sakes, top tier LCME schools get probations for even daring to make the lives of their students uncomfortable. It just goes to show how little the organization cares for us.

 

[hallowmann]

What school fails out 20%???

Lecom has 99% get through for example.

I'm not sure what you mean by "get through" but attrition at LECOM is >1%. In fact attrition at every medical school (DO & MD) is greater than 1%. Attrition at LECOM is 5-8%. Maybe almost everyone eventually gets the degree, but not everyone makes it through. I know of at least 5 people from my class that haven't for example, and I'm only an MS2. You have to realize that even with med school apps, some people end up deciding they don't want it, some people have personal crises that change what they want or what they can handle at the moment, and honestly some people just fail out.

To get an idea of DO attrition, check out this data from AACOM:

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

Also, because its not clear by the tables, the totals at the far right are actually totals averaged per year, not total attrition say from a single class. You can figure out total attrition though based on looking at 4 consecutive years (hint: its ~8%, about half is due to withdrawals/dismissals and half are leaves of absence).

By the way, I really wish COMs were required to publish this sort of info.

 

[user3]

I'm not sure what you mean by "get through" but attrition at LECOM is >1%. In fact attrition at every medical school (DO & MD) is greater than 1%. Attrition at LECOM is 5-8%. Maybe almost everyone eventually gets the degree, but not everyone makes it through. I know of at least 5 people from my class that haven't for example, and I'm only an MS2. You have to realize that even with med school apps, some people end up deciding they don't want it, some people have personal crises that change what they want or what they can handle at the moment, and honestly some people just fail out.

To get an idea of DO attrition, check out this data from AACOM:

http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2012-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

Also, because its not clear by the tables, the totals at the far right are actually totals averaged per year, not total attrition say from a single class. You can figure out total attrition though based on looking at 4 consecutive years (hint: its ~8%, about half is due to withdrawals/dismissals and half are leaves of absence).

By the way, I really wish COMs were required to publish this sort of info.

What we need are 4-6 year graduation rates--and further data regarding those not completing on time or leaving/being dismissed.