My undergrad transcript looks bad...should I give up on trying for an MD?

[Thanksforinput]

Hi, this is going to be somewhat a long winded post, but I want to be as specific as possible and as honest as possible to get real, meaningful feedback. I would really appreciate your advice. I'm trying to get as much input as possible. Well, here goes....

I am a recent college grad (class of 2011). I have recently decided that I want to be a clinical physician.

I will be completely honest and say that these are the reasons why I want to obtain an MD:
1. I want to have a real impact on people, helping them make decisions regarding their health, as it is one of the things in life that is most important and most irreplaceable
2. I have always had a fascination with life, and a sincere respect for the wonder that it is - so naturally, if I can help to preserve it, I would love to. I think that it would give a true, meaningful purpose to my life
3. I really enjoy when people ask me questions regarding their health and/or biology/life in general and I am able to answer
4. It is a stable job with good pay and an MD opens up doors to many other careers (i.e., consulting, public health, healthcare policy, research, etc.) even if in the worst case scenario I discover that I do not want to practice medicine
5. Because I am in the financial situation to be able to

Now, I need your input because I am afraid that I have put myself in a position where it will be impossible or very very difficult for me to ever gain acceptance into medical school. (By very difficult, I mean, it will take me 3+ years to work on my resume before I can even apply, and still not even be reasonably confident about my acceptance chances).

Freshman Fall (Freshman fall is mandatory Credit/No Credit)
Gen Chem: C
English seminar: B+
Calculus: B
Psychology: B

Freshman Spring
Intro Bio: Organismal/Populational: B
Organic Chemistry: Withdrawn --> Taken in the following summer at local state school (SUNY Stony Brook) and received a B+ in both Orgo I & II
Intro Econ: B
Intro Statistics: B+

Sophomore Fall:
Animal Behavior: B
Logic: Credit, received a D
General Physics I (Kinetics): C-
Clinical Psychology: B+

Sophomore Spring:
Intro Astronomy: A
Biochem: C
Intro Music: A-
Asian Religions: Credit, received a B

Junior Fall:
Developmental Biology: B
Biology major requirement: Credit (No grades given)
Psychology Research Design & Analysis: B+
Developmental Psychology: A-

Junior Spring:
Paleontology Seminar: A-, B (receive a grade for each credit individually)
General Physics 2 (E&M): C+
Psychology and Economic Rationality: B+

Senior Fall:
Vertebrate Anatomy: A-
Shakespeare: B+
Social Psychology: Credit, received a B-

Senior Spring:
Financial Accounting: B+
Opera: Credit, received a C
Music of Mozart: B+

In sum, if I calculated correctly, my overall GPA is around a 2.8-3.0 if you factor in shadow grades (which I assume medical schools always request) and my science GPA is around a 2.9. I realize that my entire transcript looks really bad, with a bunch of "easy-A" courses in which I didn't even receive an A and a few semesters where I took 3 courses, instead of the usual 4. Nobody cares, but I have been struggling with a lot of personal issues since freshman year to the present day, which definitely did not help me. But, needless to say, I was not very focused in college and did not have my priorities set, even through senior year. I was pre-med on paper, but did not possess the drive or focus to achieve the grades I would need. In short, I was not fully committed to the idea of applying to medical school because I did not want to pigeonhole myself into only becoming a doctor and nothing else. In retrospect, I think I should have done just that... To be fair to myself, I only fully committed myself very recently to trying to become an MD.

At the moment, I am collaborating with a doctor, with 2 publications on the way with co-authorship. I have yet to take the MCAT, but after taking some diagnostics and fully dedicating myself to preparing for the exam, I can get at least a 30.

I originally planned to apply for pre-med post-baccalaureate programs, but my P.I. has suggested, instead, applying for graduate level programs in science/medicine. He points out that the post-bac programs are still a heft financial investment without even conferring a degree. Moreover, MD schools average undergraduate level courses, so my grades will not be substantially improved. There are some graduate level post-bac programs, but many of them require a GPA 3.3 or higher...I feel trapped...I guess one of the greatest mountains I must overcome is convincing graduate/medical schools that I am different now and will not repeat my performance from college...

I would also like to clarify that I am not considering DO or Caribbean schools as options - they seem like "pseudo" medical degrees. Sure they will allow me to "practice medicine", but I don't think anyone in the know actually takes a osteopathic doctor or Caribbean MD graduate seriously. I would rather spend my time and money in something else where I will be a serious player in my field, even if I have to give up my current dream of practicing medicine. As much as practicing medicine is important to me, being taken seriously is also important to me.

So, as humbly as I can, I want to ask the SDN community: Do I even have a chance anymore? If I do, what should I be planning to do in the next year or so? And what can I start doing at this very moment in time to help improve my resume (i.e., apply to graduate programs NOW, ASAP...although I think most deadlines are now....)

I am very much open to your opinions, especially if you disagree with any assumptions I've made about getting into med school and/or the medical profession itself.


Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out!

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[FrkyBgStok]

Hi, this is going to be somewhat a long winded post, but I want to be as specific as possible and as honest as possible to get real, meaningful feedback. I would really appreciate your advice. I'm trying to get as much input as possible. Well, here goes....

I am a recent Swarthmore College grad (class of 2011). I have recently decided that I want to be a clinical physician. I don't feel completely comfortable posting my stats here because I am sure some Swarthmore graduate will stumble upon this website and possibly look at my thread, but the potential benefit of getting your opinions/advice far outweighs the judgement I will receive. If you are a Swattie and reading this: Yes, you did better than me. Yes, while Swarthmore's academic curriculum is rigorous and tougher than 90% of undergraduate institutions, I could have done much better had I taken more time to focus and work harder. Yes, I should have put in more effort and lacked the maturity to realize that I should have taken more care and responsibility in setting myself up for success. Congratulations.

I will be completely honest and say that these are the reasons why I want to obtain an MD:
1. I want to have a real impact on people, helping them make decisions regarding their health, as it is one of the things in life that is most important and most irreplaceable
2. I have always had a fascination with life, and a sincere respect for the wonder that it is - so naturally, if I can help to preserve it, I would love to. I think that it would give a true, meaningful purpose to my life
3. I really enjoy when people ask me questions regarding their health and/or biology/life in general and I am able to answer
4. It is a stable job with good pay and an MD opens up doors to many other careers (i.e., consulting, public health, healthcare policy, research, etc.) even if in the worst case scenario I discover that I do not want to practice medicine
5. Because I am in the financial situation to be able to

Now, I need your input because I am afraid that I have put myself in a position where it will be impossible or very very difficult for me to ever gain acceptance into medical school. (By very difficult, I mean, it will take me 3+ years to work on my resume before I can even apply, and still not even be reasonably confident about my acceptance chances).

Freshman Fall (At Swarthmore, Freshman fall is mandatory Credit/No Credit)
Gen Chem: C
English seminar: B+
Calculus: B
Psychology: B

Freshman Spring
Intro Bio: Organismal/Populational: B
Organic Chemistry: Withdrawn --> Taken in the following summer at local state school (SUNY Stony Brook) and received a B+ in both Orgo I & II
Intro Econ: B
Intro Statistics: B+

Sophomore Fall:
Animal Behavior: B
Logic: Credit, received a D
General Physics I (Kinetics): C-
Clinical Psychology: B+

Sophomore Spring:
Intro Astronomy: A
Biochem: C
Intro Music: A-
Asian Religions: Credit, received a B

Junior Fall:
Developmental Biology: B
Senior comprehensive Biology major requirement: Credit (No grades given)
Psychology Research Design & Analysis: B+
Developmental Psychology: A-

Junior Spring:
Paleontology Double-Credit Seminar: A-, B (receive a grade for each credit individually)
General Physics 2 (E&M): C+
Psychology and Economic Rationality: B+

Senior Fall:
Vertebrate Anatomy: A-
Shakespeare: B+
Social Psychology: Credit, received a B-

Senior Spring:
Financial Accounting: B+
Opera: Credit, received a C
Music of Mozart: B+

In sum, if I calculated correctly, my overall GPA is around a 2.8-3.0 if you factor in shadow grades (which I assume medical schools always request) and my science GPA is around a 2.9. I realize that my entire transcript looks really bad, with a bunch of "easy-A" courses in which I didn't even receive an A and a few semesters where I took 3 courses, instead of the usual 4. Nobody cares, but I have been struggling with a lot of personal issues since freshman year to the present day, which definitely did not help me. But, needless to say, I was not very focused in college and did not have my priorities set, even through senior year. I was pre-med on paper, but did not possess the drive or focus to achieve the grades I would need. In short, I was not fully committed to the idea of applying to medical school because I did not want to pigeonhole myself into only becoming a doctor and nothing else. In retrospect, I think I should have done just that... To be fair to myself, I only fully committed myself very recently to trying to become an MD.

At the moment, I am collaborating with a doctor at MGH with a research grant at MGH Endocrine and Harvard Genetics, with 2 publications on the way with co-authorship. I have yet to take the MCAT, but after taking some diagnostics and fully dedicating myself to preparing for the exam, I can get at least a 30.

I originally planned to apply for pre-med post-baccalaureate programs, but my P.I. has suggested, instead, applying for graduate level programs in science/medicine. He points out that the post-bac programs are still a heft financial investment without even conferring a degree. Moreover, MD schools average undergraduate level courses, so my grades will not be substantially improved. There are some graduate level post-bac programs, but many of them require a GPA 3.3 or higher...I feel trapped...I guess one of the greatest mountains I must overcome is convincing graduate/medical schools that I am different now and will not repeat my performance from college...

I would also like to clarify that I am not considering DO or Caribbean schools as options - they seem like "pseudo" medical degrees. Sure they will allow me to "practice medicine", but I don't think anyone in the know actually takes a osteopathic doctor or Caribbean MD graduate seriously. I would rather spend my time and money in something else where I will be a serious player in my field, even if I have to give up my current dream of practicing medicine. As much as practicing medicine is important to me, being taken seriously is also important to me.

So, as humbly as I can, I want to ask the SDN community: Do I even have a chance anymore? If I do, what should I be planning to do in the next year or so? And what can I start doing at this very moment in time to help improve my resume (i.e., apply to graduate programs NOW, ASAP...although I think most deadlines are now....)

I am very much open to your opinions, especially if you disagree with any assumptions I've made about getting into med school and/or the medical profession itself.


Thanks so much for taking the time to help me out!

I was going to give you input because it seems you weren't too far gone, but the bolded paragraph makes you a complete tool, so I am going to pass.

 

[DocGodfather]

Receiving a C in Opera is really bad.

 

[Thanksforinput]

@FrkyBgStok:
You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I'm not dismissing osteopathic medicine, it's just that all the doctors I've talked to have regarded it as a medical degree for people who "weren't good enough to become an 'actual' doctor". My point was that I don't want to be considered as someone who "wasn't good enough". I mean, if I'm wrong, if that isn't the case, could you please explain? Are DO's or Caribbean MD graduates limited in any way in the medicine they can practice? The only thing I really know about osteopathic medicine is the philosophical difference between allopathic and osteopathic.

 

[Thanksforinput]

Receiving a C in Opera is really bad.

Well, yeah, I realize. But that isn't what I was asking....I just want some input on whether or not I should even consider medicine anymore, just based on my past failure counting against me.

 

[DocGodfather]

@FrkyBgStok:
You seem to misunderstand what I wrote. I'm not dismissing osteopathic medicine, it's just that all the doctors I've talked to have regarded it as a medical degree for people who "weren't good enough to become an 'actual' doctor". My point was that I don't want to be considered as someone who "wasn't good enough". I mean, if I'm wrong, if that isn't the case, could you please explain? Are DO's or Caribbean MD graduates limited in any way in the medicine they can practice? The only thing I really know about osteopathic medicine is the philosophical difference between allopathic and osteopathic.

DO's are actual doctors. One would think that someone who's "educated" would know things like this. I always stand corrected.

 

[Thanksforinput]

DO's are actual doctors. One would think that someone who's "educated" would know things like this. I always stand corrected.

I don't really understand the animosity towards me and the need to put me down....I thought I made it pretty clear that I was restating what I had heard from people who HAVE a medical degree....

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I don't really understand the animosity towards me and the need to put me down....I thought I made it pretty clear that I was restating what I had heard from people who HAVE a medical degree....

Really? You don't understand? DOs aren't limited, but you could have found that out by looking into it on your own. And it doesn't matter if they are restricted, you said no one takes them seriously. You then said you would rather pursue something else than be a DO. How did I not understand what you said?

The frustrating part is that you can just google the simplest of terms and see that there are DO neurosurgeons, DO dermatologists, DO schools doing valuable research, and even DO chiefs of medicine. Instead you flat out attack DOs, calling them pseudo degrees. DOs are taken seriously, even by MDs.

Not good enough to become an actual doctor. That's funny, being that many DOs and MDs do the same residencies, right next to each other.

 

[SLC]

I mean, if I'm wrong, if that isn't the case, could you please explain? Are DO's or Caribbean MD graduates limited in any way in the medicine they can practice? The only thing I really know about osteopathic medicine is the philosophical difference between allopathic and osteopathic.

Nope, Opportunities for specializing are not quite as prolific (depending on who you talk to and especially with Carribean) but if you kill it in medical school, and work as hard as you can, you can do anything and be anything you like, there are DO's in every single field of medicine.

Not sure what you mean when you say you want to be taken seriously? Maybe you can explain further? If it's prestige among colleagues, the care you give, and your abilities will get you that, not your degree.

The only people who care about MD vs. DO are naive pre-meds and people who need an ego boost now and then; it's just the truth of the matter.

 

[DocGodfather]

Really? You don't understand? DOs aren't limited, but you could have found that out by looking into it on your own. And it doesn't matter if they are restricted, you said no one takes them seriously. You then said you would rather pursue something else than be a DO. How did I not understand what you said?

The frustrating part is that you can just google the simplest of terms and see that there are DO neurosurgeons, DO dermatologists, DO schools doing valuable research, and even DO chiefs of medicine. Instead you flat out attack DOs, calling them pseudo degrees. DOs are taken seriously, even by MDs.

Eh, he got a C in Opera. What else would you expect?

 

[Rescue 51]

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[FrkyBgStok]

Eh, he got a C in Opera. What else would you expect?

 

[notbobtrustme]

3.8+ post-bacc + killer MCAT, maybe a SMP.

MD isn't closed to you, but you got a lot of work to do. You are looking at least a 2 year project.

 

[Thanksforinput]

Eh, he got a C in Opera. What else would you expect?

I admit I should have done some more research into DO myself, but the reason why I said I wanted to be taken seriously and that I would rather do something else, is because the impression I got from the MDs I've talked to is that THEY do not take DOs seriously and regard them as a second-rate doctor.

I didn't realize that DOs actually practice medicine in all the same areas as MDs. I didn't know that DOs go into the same residencies and clinics as MDs. I definitely hold a different view of DO vs. MD now.

I'm just really sad that instead of trying to point out and rectify the inaccurate information I had up to this point, you decided to attack me as a person and put me down, simply to make me feel like less of a person.

 

[SLC]

...the impression I got from the MDs I've talked to is that THEY do not take DOs seriously and regard them as a second-rate doctor.

Allow me to refer you to my earlier post, I think it explains your experience nicely; especially the part that's bolded!

The only people who care about MD vs. DO are naive pre-meds and people who need an ego boost now and then; it's just the truth of the matter.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

I admit I should have done some more research into DO myself, but the reason why I said I wanted to be taken seriously and that I would rather do something else, is because the impression I got from the MDs I've talked to is that THEY do not take DOs seriously and regard them as a second-rate doctor.

I didn't realize that DOs actually practice medicine in all the same areas as MDs. I didn't know that DOs go into the same residencies and clinics as MDs. I definitely hold a different view of DO vs. MD now.

I'm just really sad that instead of trying to point out and rectify the inaccurate information I had up to this point, you decided to attack me as a person and put me down, simply to make me feel like less of a person.

Really dude. I should just stop coming into this thread. You didn't present inaccurate information. You said they were pseudo degrees. You said no one takes them seriously. If you would have said something like "I don't know much but I have heard negative things about DO," no one would consider you any different than anyone else. But you didn't. Instead you say, "why get butthurt, I didn't mean it that way." there is no other way to take it.

And we aren't trying to make you feel like less of a person. In a similar analogy, if you call me worthless and everyone who does my job is worthless and I say "screw you, dude" you can't really respond with "don't pick on me."

So in order to redeem yourself, you should go research DOs, because with your timeline, you may have a chance. But you don't for MD.

And how many MDs did you talk to? Most of the ones I meet say that MDs and DOs are virtually identical in practice.

 

[Thanksforinput]

I dropped Orgo I because I was probably going to get a C or lower and my advisor suggested that if I could get a better grade by taking it over in the summer that I should...in retrospect, I guess I should have just left it, as I ended up not doing the same for other science courses in the future...

 

[Thanksforinput]

for the record, I didn't say they were pseudo degrees. I said they seemed like pseudo degrees, based on the way MDs referred to them as doctors who couldn't make it into allopathic med school. I also said, that "I don't think anyone in the know takes them seriously". I didn't present it as fact - I stated it as something I got the feeling of from medical doctors (who, to me, are "people in the know).

I've only talked with about 3 doctors, all of whom were MDs. Two of them were family members so I feel like they really thought that I should achieve the best possible, so they wanted me to be at the "top of the top". But doesn't every well-meaning family member?

The more I am reading, it seems like the only people that care about the DO/MD distinction are elitist MDs...

 

[DocGodfather]

for the record, I didn't say they were pseudo degrees. I said they seemed like pseudo degrees, based on the way MDs referred to them as doctors who couldn't make it into allopathic med school. I also said, that "I don't think anyone in the know takes them seriously". I didn't present it as fact - I stated it as something I got the feeling of from medical doctors (who, to me, are "people in the know)

Oh, well in that case, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings. My bad.

 

[Thanksforinput]

Oh, well in that case, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings. My bad.

This is actually the first time I am posting in an online forum ever. So, I am probably being oversensitive, which is likely compounded by the fact that I'm a sensitive person to begin with....

I guess my most pressing question at this point is, is it worth the money and time investment to go for a 1-2 year postbac program, since, as my P.I. pointed out, I'm not getting an advanced degree and only improving my grades slightly, for the same amount of time it would take to complete a master's (2 years)...

 

[FrkyBgStok]

for the record, I didn't say they were pseudo degrees. I said they seemed like pseudo degrees, based on the way MDs referred to them as doctors who couldn't make it into allopathic med school. I also said, that "I don't think anyone in the know takes them seriously". I didn't present it as fact - I stated it as something I got the feeling of from medical doctors (who, to me, are "people in the know).

I've only talked with about 3 doctors, all of whom were MDs. Two of them were family members so I feel like they really thought that I should achieve the best possible, so they wanted me to be at the "top of the top". But doesn't every well-meaning family member?

The more I am reading, it seems like the only people that care about the DO/MD distinction are elitist MDs...

And we are finally getting somewhere. Realistically, there are more MD residencies, and there is some bias against them in some programs, but DOs have their own residencies as well. DO schools also do grade replacement, so if you spent a year retaking some of your lower grades you could boost your gpa quickly and have a pretty good chance at DO. MD is still possible, just not for a couple years.

There are benefits to going MD over DO and I have no idea your geographical location, so I don't know how DOs in general are accepted in your region, but nationally they are pretty much the same.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Also graduate programs that aren't SMPs have the stigma of grade inflation, so much more weight will be given to your undergrad gpa. You could take some upper level sciences, prove you can do very well with a heavy course load, rock the mcat and maybe get into an SMP in a year, but these are very expensive and if you don't do well, you basially torch your chances of ever going to med school.

 

[Thanksforinput]

Hm okay....

So I am trying to plan this out in my head, but I am struggling with the timing...
It seems unlikely that an SMP will accept me with a >3.0 overall GPA and >3.0 science GPA, and I am supposed to apply by July. Moreover, most of them require an MCAT score.

So...I think that I should focus on taking the MCAT ASAP, getting a good score, and maybe these programs will overlook my poor grades, since they do explicitly say that they do everything on a case by case basis. This way, I will not have to also think about taking some upper level science courses in the meantime to boost my poor grades...

I am basically re-writing your suggestion. But I'm just intimidated by the part where you say, "prove you can do very well with a heavy course load, rock the mcat and maybe get into an SMP". I'm not so sure that I can be working full time in research, taking courses at Harvard Extension, AND study for the MCAT all at the same time...

Then, (assuming a good MCAT score and acceptance into an SMP), I will begin filling out med school applications, citing my enrollment in an SMP.

How does this sound?

 

[Rescue 51]

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[FrkyBgStok]

I don't think so. SMPs are generally saying,"I've said I can handle it, I've shown I can handle, now let me prove it." you don't yet have the "shown." this is done by doing well on a good course load in hard sciences. If you had more consistency in classes or a year of upper level classes you may have a chance, but SMP adcoms are still going to want to know that they aren't taking a chance.

 

[Rescue 51]

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[Thanksforinput]

Hi,

I cannot recommend an SMP at this time as these programs are usually a last-ditch attempt to improve one's standing. I strongly encourage you to retake some of the undergraduate science courses in an attempt to raise your GPA. Once your GPA is greater than 3.0, take the MCAT, evaluate your score, and then apply SMP. I urge you to read my post, as I believe it contains some very helpful information.

Also, is this thread going to degenerate into MD vs. DO? Not again, please.

EDIT: I saw the bolded portion of your post. Learning to multitask is a vital skill for medical school. Don't take a full courseload; your grades in these courses is more important. You don't need 15+ hours each semester. If you study a few hours/day for the MCAT, by the time you take the MCAT you will be ready. You don't need marathon study sessions in order to do well.

Rescue 51

Haha, no I think we are past the MD vs DO now. Thanks FrkyBgStok and DocGodfather

So, then in that case, I should focus on re taking my Chemistry and Physics classes at BU or Harvard Extension, maybe take some advanced biology classes. I will continue to do research and also plan to take the MCAT in September (studying from June-Aug). Then, getting my grades and knowing my MCAT score, I can apply to an SMP program, and once accepted, begin applying to medical school....

 

[Thanksforinput]

EDIT: I saw the bolded portion of your post. Learning to multitask is a vital skill for medical school. Don't take a full courseload; your grades in these courses is more important. You don't need 15+ hours each semester. If you study a few hours/day for the MCAT, by the time you take the MCAT you will be ready. You don't need marathon study sessions in order to do well.

Rescue 51

I have been told my pre-med/med school friends that if you study for more than 2 or 3 months, you will forget what you have learned. The sample MCAT schedules I've seen online also suggest AM-PM study schedules....What am I missing here?

 

[Thanksforinput]

I don't see anything particularly impressive or even average for med school acceptance. You have a bunch of C's in science and some B's in psychology. There's even a C- in a prerequisite, which means you must retake it. Some A's are here and there, but they aren't in any important spots.

Since D.O. or Caribbean is not an option for you, I would say it's time to drop pre-med and move on.

I have decided that D.O. is probably my best bet, as they do allow grade replacement and are fully a doctor in all aspects that an MD is. If I re-take the courses and get the grades I need to boost my GPA, do well on my MCAT, and have a Masters of medical science under my belt, I think I still stand a fighting chance. But yeah, I do agree with you in that I think it would be extremely extremely extremely difficult to get admitted to allopathic medicine, without the ability to replace my bad grades

 

[Thanksforinput]

Thank you to all of you who responded to my post. I really wish that I could give you guys upvotes or give positive feedback.

Special thanks to FrkyBgStok and Rescue51.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to read my post and answer my questions. It means a lot to me. A lot.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

You can still do an SMP possibly, but I dont know how exactly they work. Not sure if you start and then apply or not apply until it is completed to prove you did well. Maybe someone knows more about SMPs. Think if you retake some of the poor grades and take upper sciences, combined with your research and other normal ECs like shadowing and volunteering, you should be at least competitive for DO. With a good mcat I mean. But the SMP is still an option, it just adds time.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Thank you to all of you who responded to my post. I really wish that I could give you guys upvotes or give positive feedback.

Special thanks to FrkyBgStok and Rescue51.

I really appreciate you guys taking the time to read my post and answer my questions. It means a lot to me. A lot.

No problem. It started out bad, but ended quite well.

 

[V5RED]

edit: pointless post

 

[dwdrums2112]

Solid read everyone thanks for posting.

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

Okay, the only thing you should NOT consider is Carib.

 

[Rescue 51]

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[bajastapler]

I was going to give you input because it seems you weren't too far gone, but the bolded paragraph makes you a complete tool, so I am going to pass.

agreed.

 

[235009]

this is what you have to do
1. take the MCAT
2. if you get 35+ apply to SMP programs and work ur butt off
3. if you get < 35 then reconsider DO
4. if you decide DO is an acceptable option then retake the science classes you did the worst in so as to take advantage of grade replacement
5. if you do not want to go DO then look for another career

I will say one thing about the DO route. In your case beggars can't be choosers. with a GPA < 3.0 you don't really have any lucrative career options open to you. however if you retake classes, get As and go the DO route you can have a rewarding career that pays a guaranteed 6-figure salary.*

* it is important to note that drop-out rate at DO schools is greater than that at US MD schools so while getting into a US MD school all but guarantees that you'll become a doctor the same can't be said for DO schools

 

[SeminoleVesicle]

Is it really worth sacrificing 2+ years of earning power while also working your tail off for two letters? I like your determination to get the MD but sometimes you need to think with your head and not your heart.

BTW, just because you "think" you can get a 30 doesn't mean it's going to happen. Your undergrad GPA suggests otherwise. Also, if you do manage to get an MD, you will be working alongside DOs for your entire medical education/career, so be careful with your psuedo-doctor act.

Keep truckin, good luck.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Really? You don't understand? DOs aren't limited, but you could have found that out by looking into it on your own.

Lol look at this guy jumping on the DO bandwagon, man we should have a DO parade and you can be the main mascot for it.

And it doesn't matter if they are restricted, you said no one takes them seriously. You then said you would rather pursue something else than be a DO. How did I not understand what you said?

Because they are restricted - hence the OP's point of pursuing another career - its quite simple man, trust me.

The frustrating part is that you can just google the simplest of terms and see that there are DO neurosurgeons, DO dermatologists, DO schools doing valuable research, and even DO chiefs of medicine. Instead you flat out attack DOs, calling them pseudo degrees. DOs are taken seriously, even by MDs.

Ok I disagree with the OP in that DO being a "pseudo-degree" (w/e the hell that means). I do believe that DOs are fully licensed physicians with a medical degree, however, lets take a look at that list ya got there mate:

DO neurosurgeons, dermatologists, chiefs of medicine, researchers, do exist. Agreed. However, in the grand scheme of things, you would have to REALLY stand out in med school as a DO student to get MD residencies and to do all of those things you mentioned. Its so much easier as an MD student because you aren't expected to be at the top of your class, you don't have to take the COMLEX, and depending on your USMLEs and other things in med school your pretty much guaranteed a spot for an MD residency.

Sure as a DO student, you get your own "special" residencies lol, but from what I've heard from doctors, those residencies aren't as good as MD residencies as there are more academic and clinical opportunities in MD residencies. Ive heard DOs can go into PCP pretty easily, which is probably the boring job for a doctor lol - here's tylenol, you have a cold, you have a rash, idk wth this is so ill refer you to a specialist. done.

Why would the OP want to work 5x harder in med school when MD students can get the same thing with less effort?(note I'm not saying allo school is "easier" than osteo schools, med school in general is very difficult, by "easy" I meant "comparatively easier")

Not good enough to become an actual doctor. That's funny, being that many DOs and MDs do the same residencies, right next to each other.

Yea just because they're right next to each other doesn't mean they're equal champ.

 

[DeterminedDoc]

this is what you have to do
1. take the MCAT
2. if you get 35+ apply to SMP programs and work ur butt off
3. if you get < 35 then reconsider DO
4. if you decide DO is an acceptable option then retake the science classes you did the worst in so as to take advantage of grade replacement
5. if you do not want to go DO then look for another career

I will say one thing about the DO route. In your case beggars can't be choosers. with a GPA < 3.0 you don't really have any lucrative career options open to you. however if you retake classes, get As and go the DO route you can have a rewarding career that pays a guaranteed 6-figure salary.*

* it is important to note that drop-out rate at DO schools is greater than that at US MD schools so while getting into a US MD school all but guarantees that you'll become a doctor the same can't be said for DO schools

You know that is so true. Beggars can't be choosers, and I've said that for a long time. I guess the OP and I will be spending the next few years repairing our GPAs and watching our friends go MD.

Yea but even after that, we still have to ask ourselves - why DO? Because we sucked too much in life to be an MD, and for no other reason than that. That's going to be fun to live with, especially being Indian. Your right man, we aren't failures and we aren't screw ups, we are going to become successful second-rate doctors at a much older age than everyone else in life.

woohoooo1!!!!!!!!! YEA BABY! IM SO PUMPED!

 

[EarthtoneJon]

Because they are restricted - hence the OP's point of pursuing another career - its quite simple man, trust me.

Restricted in what ways? If you cannot say specifically, perhaps you should not at all, man, trust me.

I do believe that DOs are fully licensed physicians with a medical degree...

Quick, somebody call AACOMAS with the good news!

DO neurosurgeons, dermatologists, chiefs of medicine, researchers, do exist. Agreed. However, in the grand scheme of things, you would have to REALLY stand out in med school as a DO student to get MD residencies and to do all of those things you mentioned. Its so much easier as an MD student because you aren't expected to be at the top of your class, you don't have to take the COMLEX, and depending on your USMLEs and other things in med school your pretty much guaranteed a spot for an MD residency.

You essentially just speculated everything in the above paragraph.

Ive heard DOs can go into PCP pretty easily, which is probably the boring job for a doctor lol - here's tylenol, you have a cold, you have a rash, idk wth this is so ill refer you to a specialist. done.

I wouldn't let you near me with a tongue depressor!

 

[DeterminedDoc]

Restricted in what ways? If you cannot say specifically, perhaps you should not at all, man, trust me.

"restricted" maybe the wrong word to use, because they aren't technically "restricted", but its just takes more effort and work to get the same thing as an MD. So "restricted"? not really, my mistake. its just gonna take more work to end up at the same exact place.

You essentially just speculated everything in the above paragraph.*

Uh no, I was trying to portray how it is comparatively easier as an MD student compared to a DO student to get a particular MD residency. Speculation? Maybe, but it doesn't mean its inaccurate.

 

[EarthtoneJon]

Touche. Sorry for the biting sarcasm, by the way, just having some fun with the above post.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

Lol look at this guy jumping on the DO bandwagon, man we should have a DO parade and you can be the main mascot for it.



Because they are restricted - hence the OP's point of pursuing another career - its quite simple man, trust me.



Ok I disagree with the OP in that DO being a "pseudo-degree" (w/e the hell that means). I do believe that DOs are fully licensed physicians with a medical degree, however, lets take a look at that list ya got there mate:

DO neurosurgeons, dermatologists, chiefs of medicine, researchers, do exist. Agreed. However, in the grand scheme of things, you would have to REALLY stand out in med school as a DO student to get MD residencies and to do all of those things you mentioned. Its so much easier as an MD student because you aren't expected to be at the top of your class, you don't have to take the COMLEX, and depending on your USMLEs and other things in med school your pretty much guaranteed a spot for an MD residency.

Sure as a DO student, you get your own "special" residencies lol, but from what I've heard from doctors, those residencies aren't as good as MD residencies as there are more academic and clinical opportunities in MD residencies. Ive heard DOs can go into PCP pretty easily, which is probably the boring job for a doctor lol - here's tylenol, you have a cold, you have a rash, idk wth this is so ill refer you to a specialist. done.

Why would the OP want to work 5x harder in med school when MD students can get the same thing with less effort?(note I'm not saying allo school is "easier" than osteo schools, med school in general is very difficult, by "easy" I meant "comparatively easier")



Yea just because they're right next to each other doesn't mean they're equal champ.

Nevermind. You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about. It isn't worth my time.

 

[FrkyBgStok]

this is what you have to do
1. take the MCAT
2. if you get 35+ apply to SMP programs and work ur butt off
3. if you get < 35 then reconsider DO
4. if you decide DO is an acceptable option then retake the science classes you did the worst in so as to take advantage of grade replacement
5. if you do not want to go DO then look for another career

I will say one thing about the DO route. In your case beggars can't be choosers. with a GPA < 3.0 you don't really have any lucrative career options open to you. however if you retake classes, get As and go the DO route you can have a rewarding career that pays a guaranteed 6-figure salary.*

* it is important to note that drop-out rate at DO schools is greater than that at US MD schools so while getting into a US MD school all but guarantees that you'll become a doctor the same can't be said for DO schools

Do you have sources for the last claim? And I am not saying the DO system is perfect, but it is valid.

 

[235009]

Do you have sources for the last claim? And I am not saying the DO system is perfect, but it is valid.

I don't. Just as you don't have a source to refute that claim because DO schools keep that under wraps.

However, a friend of mine who goes to a "top" DO school told me that 10% of the class was gone after first year (and, i think, those who failed out had no chance for recourse because that is the school's policy). On the other hand 2.5% of my first year class did not make it through first year and 2/3 ended up repeating the year successfully.

That being said, the increased dropout rate doesn't even make it into my top three reasons why any informed premed should pick MD over DO if given the opportunity.
1. disorganized and less rigorous clinical education
2. COMLEX
3. more difficulty in the match with many doors closed

 

[TriagePreMed]

I don't. Just as you don't have a source to refute that claim because DO schools keep that under wraps.

However, a friend of mine who goes to a "top" DO school told me that 10% of the class was gone after first year (and, i think, those who failed out had no chance for recourse because that is the school's policy). On the other hand 2.5% of my first year class did not make it through first year and 2/3 ended up repeating the year successfully.

That being said, the increased dropout rate doesn't even make it into my top three reasons why any informed premed should pick MD over DO if given the opportunity.
1. disorganized and less rigorous clinical education
2. COMLEX
3. more difficulty in the match with many doors closed

So all you have going on is some hearsay plus a claim that D.O. schools keep it under wraps, and you think this drop-out rate is because they are in an Osteopathic college? If the average MD student is like you, I'm gonna be able to snooze my way into a top derm residency.

 

[V5RED]

I don't. Just as you don't have a source to refute that claim because DO schools keep that under wraps.

However, a friend of mine who goes to a "top" DO school told me that 10% of the class was gone after first year (and, i think, those who failed out had no chance for recourse because that is the school's policy). On the other hand 2.5% of my first year class did not make it through first year and 2/3 ended up repeating the year successfully.

That being said, the increased dropout rate doesn't even make it into my top three reasons why any informed premed should pick MD over DO if given the opportunity.
1. disorganized and less rigorous clinical education
2. COMLEX
3. more difficulty in the match with many doors closed

You made the claim that DO schools have higher dropout rates, so the onus is on you to provide evidence.

Here is some data.
Average dropout rate for 1st year DO students: 3.63%
Highest dropout rate of any DO school: 7.69% (ie the worst dropout rate is not as bad as the dropout rate you claim happened at a "top" DO school)
http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2011-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

Do you have evidence to show that their clinical education is lazy and sloppy? It seems like you are making things up or going by unverified rumors.

 

[235009]

Here is some data.
Average dropout rate for 1st year DO students: 3.63%
Highest dropout rate of any DO school: 7.69% (ie the worst dropout rate is not as bad as the dropout rate you claim happened at a "top" DO school)
http://www.aacom.org/data/Documents/2011-COM-Attrition-Summary.pdf

Do you have evidence to show that their clinical education is lazy and sloppy? It seems like you are making things up or going by unverified rumors.

looks like there are a bunch pushing 9 and 10% if you look beyond the latest data. anyway, even with these numbers you presented my claim that DO attrition is greater than US MD attrition seems to hold up

either way this is getting way off topic and i see that people are being overly defensive without wanting to have an actual conversation. there is another thread where this is being discussed more intelligently.