Naturopathic Medicine?

[ronaldinho22]

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https://www.researchgate.net/public...inal_properties_of_Ginger_Zingiber_officinale

Here is another study done showing antibacterial properties of ginger. Some of these herbal remedies are legit and have been used for thousands of years. I was raised under these so I have firsthand experience. Obviously certain serious ailments need western medicine but many common sicknesses do not.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

The burden of proof is still on natruopaths to prove that it is efficacious if they want to be taken seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html

My comment isn't really about naturopaths specifically, just a response to your comment that "if it works it will be recognized." However, I would say that as scientists and physicians, our goals should be knowing the truth, not passing the buck to the naturopaths or other proponents of a particular alternative therapy and asking them to prove its efficacy to us. If you have a patient who is taking a supplement, it would be nice to be able to either confirm or deny it's efficacy. Or would you just refer them to a naturopath 😉

 

[787593]

.

 

[Lawpy]

Is it reliable & effective? I have heard many criticisms regarding herbal medicine and it does look interesting, but I am afraid it might be BS lol. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

 

[Perrotfish]

Obviously certain serious ailments need western medicine but many common sicknesses do not.

No, the common stuff needs medicine to. Obviously the biggest thing 'common' illnesses need is to be prevented by our ever expanding array of vaccinations, which is why you now think of 'common' as synonymous with 'mild', because smallpox, strep pneumo, and diphtheria aren't common illnesses any more. Flu would be a lot less common if that vaccine was mandatory.

That being said even common illnesses often benefit from medical interventions. In childhood antifungals for a candidial diaper rash, antibiotics for strep/UTIs/Otitis media and Zofran for vomiting are extremely effective interventions. Misery doesn't need to be life threatening us to fix it. Nothing really works for cough yet, but then again 10 years ago nothing really worked that well for vomiting and then someone invented Zofran. For common conditions of old age I wouldn't want to have to get old without the option for joint replacements for my knee pain, artificial lens implants for my cataracts, and Lasix for my hypertension. And of course almost all of the common conditions of mental health, from depression to inattention, improve dramatically with medical management. Natropathy does nothing for these illnesses other than misdirect patients who could have been fixed if they found their way to a real doctor.

Even when common illnesses are beyond the reach of modern medicine, what they still do not need is quackery. They don't need Vitamin C, ginsing, acupuncture, Reiki, or naturopathy. They don' t need them because they don't work and no one needs to be robbed of their money in exchange for nothing. They also don't need them because patients need to understand the limits of medicine to get back to their lives. Patients who have some kind of medical misery tend to assume to role of 'patient' until you either fix them or they accept the fact that they can't be fixed. Obviously the fun part of medicine is fixing the fixable patients, but the noblest part of medicine is having the strength to look a patient in the eyes and tell them that there is nothing that you, or anyone, can do. That's true whether its a mid common illness like bronchitis or an inevitably fatal condition like metastatic pancreatic cancer.

 

[libertyyne]

My comment isn't really about naturopaths specifically, just a response to your comment that "if it works it will be recognized." However, I would say that as scientists and physicians, our goals should be knowing the truth, not passing the buck to the naturopaths or other proponents of a particular alternative therapy and asking them to prove its efficacy to us. If you have a patient who is taking a supplement, it would be nice to be able to either confirm or deny it's efficacy. Or would you just refer them to a naturopath 😉

My argument was that if there is clear benefit from quality studies we should say it works for X under Y conditions. At that point, we would probably be recommending/prescribing it as well. If the benefit is not clear based on the studies, we would say we dont know. People can go to shaman's and witch doctors and do rieki and get their shakra's aligned my answer will be 1) there is no mechanism that we currently understand that would explain its benefit. 2) there is not enough evidence to support its use. 3) it may have real negative complications that are not adequately documented. 4) if you would like to continue it it is up to the you(caveat emptor) obviously, but if there is an interaction with some medication they are taking I would recommend against that.

 

[libertyyne]

Here is a clear example of the risk of naturopathy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/19/health/teething-remedies-infant-deaths.html?_r=0

 

[kb1900]

My argument was that if there is clear benefit from quality studies we should say it works for X under Y conditions. At that point, we would probably be recommending/prescribing it as well. If the benefit is not clear based on the studies, we would say we dont know. People can go to shaman's and witch doctors and do rieki and get their shakra's aligned my answer will be 1) there is no mechanism that we currently understand that would explain its benefit. 2) there is not enough evidence to support its use. 3) it may have real negative complications that are not adequately documented. 4) if you would like to continue it it is up to the you(caveat emptor) obviously, but if there is an interaction with some medication they are taking I would recommend against that.

I actually had an interviewer ask me this question and when I instantly responded with these a few of these points he was stunned.

Apparently many applicants don't understand what the point of drug discovery->translational research/clinical trials-> FDA approval is

 

[WedgeDawg]

Totally off topic but bloodletting is actually a mainstay of treatment for hemachromatosis

I know that's not the point

 

[Mad Jack]

Is it reliable & effective? I have heard many criticisms regarding herbal medicine and it does look interesting, but I am afraid it might be BS lol. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

It's reliably and effectively useless

 

[Mad Jack]

Totally off topic but bloodletting is actually a mainstay of treatment for hemachromatosis

I know that's not the point

And leeches are great for graft viability.

 

[787593]

No, the common stuff needs medicine to. Obviously the biggest thing 'common' illnesses need is to be prevented by our ever expanding array of vaccinations, which is why you now think of 'common' as synonymous with 'mild', because smallpox, strep pneumo, and diphtheria aren't common illnesses any more. Flu would be a lot less common if that vaccine was mandatory.

That being said even common illnesses often benefit from medical interventions. In childhood antifungals for a candidial diaper rash, antibiotics for strep/UTIs/Otitis media and Zofran for vomiting are extremely effective interventions. Misery doesn't need to be life threatening us to fix it. Nothing really works for cough yet, but then again 10 years ago nothing really worked that well for vomiting and then someone invented Zofran. For common conditions of old age I wouldn't want to have to get old without the option for joint replacements for my knee pain, artificial lens implants for my cataracts, and Lasix for my hypertension. And of course almost all of the common conditions of mental health, from depression to inattention, improve dramatically with medical management. Natropathy does nothing for these illnesses other than misdirect patients who could have been fixed if they found their way to a real doctor.

Even when common illnesses are beyond the reach of modern medicine, what they still do not need is quackery. They don't need Vitamin C, ginsing, acupuncture, Reiki, or naturopathy. They don' t need them because they don't work and no one needs to be robbed of their money in exchange for nothing. They also don't need them because patients need to understand the limits of medicine to get back to their lives. Patients who have some kind of medical misery tend to assume to role of 'patient' until you either fix them or they accept the fact that they can't be fixed. Obviously the fun part of medicine is fixing the fixable patients, but the noblest part of medicine is having the strength to look a patient in the eyes and tell them that there is nothing that you, or anyone, can do. That's true whether its a mid common illness like bronchitis or an inevitably fatal condition like metastatic pancreatic cancer.

This was inspirational...

 

[Mad Jack]

Got into a conversation with a naturopathic student recently, under the premise of her being a "medical student," as she put it. When I asked where she went and she told me, I couldn't stop laughing for a solid 30 seconds.

Sure, there's decent natural remedies out there. But when push comes to shove, I'll take modern science. There's a reason we live longer than we did a century ago.

Interestingly, public sanitation, clean drinking water, and improvements in nutrition account for the vast majority of life gained. Vaccines and antibiotics are the other big factors that has helped, but the rest of medicine doesn't really add a lot of good years to one's life.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

My argument was that if there is clear benefit from quality studies we should say it works for X under Y conditions. At that point, we would probably be recommending/prescribing it as well. If the benefit is not clear based on the studies, we would say we dont know. People can go to shaman's and witch doctors and do rieki and get their shakra's aligned my answer will be 1) there is no mechanism that we currently understand that would explain its benefit. 2) there is not enough evidence to support its use. 3) it may have real negative complications that are not adequately documented. 4) if you would like to continue it it is up to the you(caveat emptor) obviously, but if there is an interaction with some medication they are taking I would recommend against that.

Yes agreed, but I think you are overestimating the ease with which quality studies are available and interpretable. Just try to find a consensus on techniques that reduce the length of viral URIs. So many studies, really varied quality, many different parameters, it's hard to interpret. And even if they do have a research consensus, many physicians would not wade through all that.

 

[ronaldinho22]

Even when common illnesses are beyond the reach of modern medicine, what they still do not need is quackery. They don't need Vitamin C
.

Argue with these sources that provide evidence that certain herbs have medical benefits; certain plants that can easily be incorporated into your food. I've been raised under these types of methods where my mother makes remedies such as ginger tea which contains . I'm not defending all naturopathy remedies but many of these remedies which have specifically been developed in Asia and India have worked for thousands of years. One of the main problems with our current medicine system is that people look for instant cures only AFTER they have gotten sick. Preventative methods such as proper nutrition are often overlooked. And did you just say that patients don't need Vitamin C for common illnesses?

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abo...r-questions/can-turmeric-prevent-bowel-cancer
https://www.researchgate.net/public...inal_properties_of_Ginger_Zingiber_officinale
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-614-cardamom.aspx?activeingredientid=614&

 

[787593]

Is it reliable & effective? I have heard many criticisms regarding herbal medicine and it does look interesting, but I am afraid it might be BS lol. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.

My grandfather has diabetes (diabeetus/the sugars) and he take herbs instead of listening to his doctor's advice regarding diet/exercise/medicine.

Edit: he isn't doing too well

Edit #2: he literally has a big lunch box with dozens of herb bottles and they're all crap. Total waste of money.

 

[sullen-burger]

My grandfather has diabetes (diabeetus/the sugars) and he take herbs instead of listening to his doctor's advice regarding diet/exercise/medicine.

Edit: he isn't doing too well

Edit #2: he literally has a big lunch box with dozens of herb bottles and they're all crap. Total waste of money.

Mine does barley tablets and sends out emails to links proving how vitamin C can treat some cancers.

 

[BehindBlueEyes]

Argue with these sources that provide evidence that certain herbs have medical benefits; certain plants that can easily be incorporated into your food. I've been raised under these types of methods where my mother makes remedies such as ginger tea which contains . I'm not defending all naturopathy remedies but many of these remedies which have specifically been developed in Asia and India have worked for thousands of years. One of the main problems with our current medicine system is that people look for instant cures only AFTER they have gotten sick. Preventative methods such as proper nutrition are often overlooked. And did you just say that patients don't need Vitamin C for common illnesses?

http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abo...r-questions/can-turmeric-prevent-bowel-cancer
https://www.researchgate.net/public...inal_properties_of_Ginger_Zingiber_officinale
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-614-cardamom.aspx?activeingredientid=614&

Yes, because India and Asia are such models of health and sanitation in the world... no doubt thanks to these remedies.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Totally off topic but bloodletting is actually a mainstay of treatment for hemachromatosis

I know that's not the point

Haha I know. I was thinking more along the lines of "oh you have cold, better let out some blood."

 

[Goro]

Antibiotics and vaccines, baby.

Well, i mean lets be honest here modern medicine didn't necessarily extend lifespans by 30+ years by itself, sanitation and public health are big contributors to that number. Still, all of that is science based reproducible, unlike anything in nut-o-pathy.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Clearly this is going to be like arguing with my mom that the cold itself does not make people sick..
Look if you want to believe that magic plants can you make you better go ahead, but please don't spread that false information.

Yay Herbal Medicine!
http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...i-village-two-patients-also-dead-1531014.html

Also India/Pakistan is about the worst example you can give.. They still have polio because some of their people think the plants and chilli powder can cure them...
No, no, no.. That is not how any of this works

So please go get your vaccines, see a doctor, and if you have a cold go get an over the counter drug from CVS.

Honey and black peppers mixed is not going to cure your cold... Or relieve the symptoms...

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Clearly this is going to be like arguing with my mom that the cold itself does not make people sick..
Look if you want to believe that magic plants can you make you better go ahead, but please don't spread that false information.

Yay Herbal Medicine!
http://www.newindianexpress.com/sta...i-village-two-patients-also-dead-1531014.html

Also India/Pakistan is about the worst example you can give.. They still have polio because some of their people think the plants and chilli powder can cure them...
No, no, no.. That is not how any of this works

So please go get your vaccines, see a doctor, and if you have a cold go get an over the counter drug from CVS.

Honey and black peppers mixed is not going to cure your cold... Or relieve the symptoms...

But there are things which have been shown to decrease the time course of viral URIs, better than NSAIDs according to some reviews, just as antibiotics are known to reduce the course of certain self limited bacterial infections. Their use should be weighed against their risks, but you shouldn't maintain ignorance of the current state of knowledge because it offends(?) you...

 

[roaringunicorn]

believing the 'acupuncture is pseudo science' meme in 2016 (almost 2017)
wow

 

[Perrotfish]

But there are things which have been shown to decrease the time course of viral URIs, better than NSAIDs according to some reviews, just as antibiotics are known to reduce the course of certain self limited bacterial infections. Their use should be weighed against their risks, but you shouldn't maintain ignorance of the current state of knowledge because it offends(?) you...

Again, no. There is nothing in either western medicine or the multicultural milieu of quackery that decreases the length of symptoms for most types of viruses. That includes NSAIDs, BTW. That's not what they do. The only viruses where medications can decrease the time to resolution are flu (amantadine, oseltamavir), herpes (acyclovir), and there is a medication in stage three trials for RSV. In terms of natural cures everything is either completely unproven, or actually disproven, with the possible exception of elderberry for certain subtypes of flu. That has some very small trials supporting it, which will probably wash out under increased scrutiny.

 

[libertyyne]

believing the 'acupuncture is pseudo science' meme in 2016 (almost 2017)
wow

Did you forget to go to your chiropractor today? and did he leave out the reiki therapy?
I am worried your humors might be out of sync especially the bile.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Again, no. There is nothing in either western medicine or the multicultural milieu of quackery that decreases the length of symptoms for most types of viruses. That includes NSAIDs, BTW. That's not what they do. The only viruses where medications can decrease the time to resolution are flu (amantadine, oseltamavir), herpes (acyclovir), and there is a medication in stage three trials for RSV. In terms of natural cures everything is either completely unproven, or actually disproven, with the possible exception of elderberry for certain subtypes of flu. That has some very small trials supporting it, which will probably wash out under increased scrutiny.

Immunology/ID was a while ago for me but what about sofosbuvir and friends for Hep C, ARVs for HIV, etc?

 

[JustLookingforAnswers]

Immunology/ID was a while ago for me but what about sofosbuvir and friends for Hep C, ARVs for HIV, etc?

How dare you harass and insult the geniuses who have invented Herbal medicine.

Do you realize that, without Herbal medicine, surgeons would not be able to breathe cheese while performing surgery?

JUST DON'T WHAT YOU GET?!?!

 

[JustLookingforAnswers]

WE WOULDNT BE ABLE TO MAKE GINGERBREAD HOUSES TOO!!

 

[WedgeDawg]

JUST DON'T WHAT YOU GET?!?!

clearly the content of your post

 

[Dr.Sticks]

But there are things which have been shown to decrease the time course of viral URIs, better than NSAIDs according to some reviews, just as antibiotics are known to reduce the course of certain self limited bacterial infections. Their use should be weighed against their risks, but you shouldn't maintain ignorance of the current state of knowledge because it offends(?) you...

I am not offended
Rather peoples ignorance is going to bring back certain illnesses once eradicated from this nation...(assuming you are an American and do reside in the United States)
I think vaccination should be mandatory.

 

[Perrotfish]

Immunology/ID was a while ago for me but what about sofosbuvir and friends for Hep C, ARVs for HIV, etc?

Both true. I was thinking of just minor, self limiting viral illnesses, but you are right that those are both viruses and there are medicines for them. CMV also has ganciclovir, for your transplant patients.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

Again, no. There is nothing in either western medicine or the multicultural milieu of quackery that decreases the length of symptoms for most types of viruses. That includes NSAIDs, BTW. That's not what they do. The only viruses where medications can decrease the time to resolution are flu (amantadine, oseltamavir), herpes (acyclovir), and there is a medication in stage three trials for RSV. In terms of natural cures everything is either completely unproven, or actually disproven, with the possible exception of elderberry for certain subtypes of flu. That has some very small trials supporting it, which will probably wash out under increased scrutiny.

A cursory search in pubmed will show you are incorrect. The metric I was referencing was from a metaanalysis which showed no decrease in timecourse with NSAIDs, as expected, but did show improvements with vitamin C, and also found that gargling water 3x/day for 15s was significantly correlated with fewer viral URIs. Do these not count?

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I am not offended
Rather peoples ignorance is going to bring back certain illnesses once eradicated from this nation...(assuming you are an American and do reside in the United States)
I think vaccination should be mandatory.

A bit of a non-sequitur but sure.

 

[roaringunicorn]

Did you forget to go to your chiropractor today? and did he leave out the reiki therapy?
I am worried your humors might be out of sync especially the bile.

Im glad you commented the way you did so this can be a teaching moment for everyone. I know nothing about reiki and chiropractics so this is clearly just about acupuncture. You see western medicine and especially American medicine community has this prevalent mindset of either our way or the highway so to speak meaning we know whats best while everyone else is stupid and ignorant. You must not pass judgement on another cultures way of healing without first learning about their methods. Just remember at the end of the day you're pushing big pharmas agenda with such ignorant comments. I have seen people on Imitrex or Relpax because of debilitating migraines suddenly become better to the point they cant stop taking medications with just weekly acupuncture sessions.

Just to quickly point out: Over half of all doctors in the UK prescribe acupuncture ( I wonder whats the percentage in the US anyone know? )The governments National Institute for Health and Care Excellence actually recommends acupuncture as the go to treatment for back pains and headaches. Please dont tell pfizer this or they might do more clearly unbiased paid studies.

 

[787593]

Im glad you commented the way you did so this can be a teaching moment for everyone. I know nothing about reiki and chiropractics so this is clearly just about acupuncture. You see western medicine and especially American medicine community has this prevalent mindset of either our way or the highway so to speak meaning we know whats best while everyone else is stupid and ignorant. You must not pass judgement on another cultures way of healing without first learning about their methods. Just remember at the end of the day you're pushing big pharmas agenda with such ignorant comments. I have seen people on Imitrex or Relpax because of debilitating migraines suddenly become better to the point they cant stop taking medications with just weekly acupuncture sessions.

Just to quickly point out: Over half of all doctors in the UK prescribe acupuncture ( I wonder whats the percentage in the US anyone know? )The governments National Institute for Health and Care Excellence actually recommends acupuncture as the go to treatment for back pains and headaches. Please dont tell pfizer this or they might do more clearly unbiased paid studies.

Pfizer saves lives.

 

[Perrotfish]

You must not pass judgement on another cultures way of healing without first learning about their methods..

Yes, you can. This is important for your future relationship to all forms of Quackery: before you even get down into the nitty gritty details of a given traditional healing art, you are allowed to triage by first asking if the healing in question violates any basic tenets of biology or physics. Any traditional form of healing that relies on 'life energy' fails that test, and is necessarily a fraud. That includes acupuncture, Reiki, and healing crystals. The 'memory of water' thing in homeopathy would also get triaged out.

Chiropractors, naturopaths, and herbalists are also frauds, but their fraud is a little more grounded in reality as we understand it. You need a decent knowledge of anatomy to understand why chiropractors don't work, and you need to understand pharmacology to understand why each individual herb is useless. I have more sympathy for the many people fooled by these professions.

If someone says there is a unicorn in your sock drawer, you are not obligated to look in the sock drawer to prove them wrong. It is perfectly acceptable to point out that there is no such thing as a unicorn, and if there were it would not fit in a sock drawer.

 

[Perrotfish]

You see western medicine and especially American medicine community has this prevalent mindset of either our way or the highway so to speak meaning we know whats best while everyone else is stupid and ignorant.

One other important point: medicine is not 'western' or 'American'. Only quackery is cultural, or regional. Real medicine is, and always has been, a collaborative effort between objective scientific minds in every culture and continent. The history of real medicine began in China and the Middle East as much as in Greece, and more recently the Nobel prize in medicine has been won by Japanese researchers for the last 2 years in a row. Science has always crossed all borders.

You know what western healing is? Chriopractors. Hydropaths. Spiritual healers. Homeopaths. That's western cultural healing. We invented every single one.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

One other important point: medicine is not 'western' or 'American'. Only quackery is cultural, or regional. Real medicine is, and always has been, a collaborative effort between objective scientific minds in every culture and continent. From the history of real medicine began in China and the Middle East as much as in the US, to the most recent Nobel prizes in medicine (from Japan for the last 2 years) science has always crossed all borders.

You know what western healing is? Chriopractors. Hydropaths. Spiritual healers. Homeopaths. That's western cultural healing. We invented every single one.

The attempt to drag medicine down to the level of quackery by labeling it "Western" as though it were only one type of legitimate medical fields really annoys me.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

One other important point: medicine is not 'western' or 'American'. Only quackery is cultural, or regional. Real medicine is, and always has been, a collaborative effort between objective scientific minds in every culture and continent. From the history of real medicine began in China and the Middle East as much as in Greece, to the most recent Nobel prizes in medicine (from Japan for the last 2 years) science has always crossed all borders.

You know what western healing is? Chriopractors. Hydropaths. Spiritual healers. Homeopaths. That's western cultural healing. We invented every single one.

Well spiritual healers are of all cultural backgrounds, but spot on otherwise.
For example we can credit the early Islamic empire for the first hospitals in the world.

I by the way think the whole "American" medicine thing probably has to do with the fact that the U.S is indeed a research powerhouse. We probably have some of the biggest and most powerful research hospitals in the world here in the U.S. Also of course some of the greatest medical discoveries/cures were founded here.
The fact remains though that medicine is truly a global effort. In fact many of the donors for hospitals here are not even American but global philanthropists.

For example Hopkins named one of the towers after an Arab ruler from the UAE for his generous contributions.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news..._honors_uae_sheikh_zayed_bin_sultan_al_nahyan

I haven't even listed bug donors for research yet... They come from all over the world and aren't just Americans.

As a final point; My hypothesis is the greater the illiteracy rate/lack of higher education the more likely for the population if the area to believe in quack medicine.
I should research this and write about it hmm...

 

[libertyyne]

Im glad you commented the way you did so this can be a teaching moment for everyone. I know nothing about reiki and chiropractics so this is clearly just about acupuncture. You see western medicine and especially American medicine community has this prevalent mindset of either our way or the highway so to speak meaning we know whats best while everyone else is stupid and ignorant. You must not pass judgement on another cultures way of healing without first learning about their methods. Just remember at the end of the day you're pushing big pharmas agenda with such ignorant comments. I have seen people on Imitrex or Relpax because of debilitating migraines suddenly become better to the point they cant stop taking medications with just weekly acupuncture sessions.

Just to quickly point out: Over half of all doctors in the UK prescribe acupuncture ( I wonder whats the percentage in the US anyone know? )The governments National Institute for Health and Care Excellence actually recommends acupuncture as the go to treatment for back pains and headaches. Please dont tell pfizer this or they might do more clearly unbiased paid studies.

I am glad you replied like this so this could be a teaching moment for everyone involved.
1) I never mentioned acupuncture in my initial comment.
2)You assumed my culture and level of exposure to this quackery.(Hint I grew up on another continent). I grew up being treated by these quacks . I know what homeopathic pills taste, smell, and look like, do you ?
3) Your experience is not science. There is limited evidence that acupuncture may be slightly beneficial for back pain. You know what else works for back pain? not treating it and rest for three weeks. Your experiences are not what science is. We are inherently biased in our perception and looking at the world and treatment through the lens of science is the only way to come to evidence that is actionable.

I dont care about the origniation of a therapy. If there is evidence that accupuncture cures cancer, and my patients have that cancer I will send them to get accupuncture done. But your arguments of "you are culturally ignorant" or "you are pushing big pharma" is by far one of the dumbest arguments that a person could make. Here is a simple argument

Show me quality scientific evidence supporting your claims and I will support your claims, it is not a cultural thing, or an ignorance thing. It is a rationality thing.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I have to agree that the people here speaking out against "quackery" are really disappointing me. You aren't sharing any new information about healing crystals etc, no one in this thread (besides maybe the OP?) is in favor of those things, but you keep going back to them, almost as if there is no strength in your arguments besides these headlines. There's no reason to keep lumping every one of these theories, therapies, and substances together, and in fact, it is totally unscientific to disregard research in favor of your preformed opinions. Critique the research on its methods or biases but don't close your eyes and refuse to look.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

For example we can credit the early Islamic empire for the first hospitals in the world.

Not true. Even if you don't count the sick houses in Ancient Egypt or the temples dedicated to healing in Ancient Greece, there is a hospital in Sri Lanka that is 4 centuries older than the oldest Islamic hospital.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I have to agree that the people here speaking out against "quackery" are really disappointing me. You aren't sharing any new information about healing crystals etc, no one in this thread (besides maybe the OP?) is in favor of those things, but you keep going back to them, almost as if there is no strength in your arguments besides these headlines. There's no reason to keep lumping every one of these theories, therapies, and substances together, and in fact, it is totally unscientific to disregard research in favor of your preformed opinions. Critique the research on its methods or biases but don't close your eyes and refuse to look.

Except that the majority of the research shows that homeopathy, naturopathic medicine, etc has no benefit. That's medicine. Rejecting things that don't work and accepting things that do.

 

[libertyyne]

I have to agree that the people here speaking out against "quackery" are really disappointing me. You aren't sharing any new information about healing crystals etc, no one in this thread (besides maybe the OP?) is in favor of those things, but you keep going back to them, almost as if there is no strength in your arguments besides these headlines. There's no reason to keep lumping every one of these theories, therapies, and substances together, and in fact, it is totally unscientific to disregard research in favor of your preformed opinions. Critique the research on its methods or biases but don't close your eyes and refuse to look.

I dont think anyone is refusing to look at anything except homeopathy. Show me some RCTs that show efficacy and you have me as a proponent, until then, I will say that most of these therapies dont pass the smell test.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

I dont think anyone is refusing to look at anything except homeopathy. Show me some RCTs that show efficacy and you have me as a proponent, until then, I will say that most of these therapies dont pass the smell test.

I think my previous posts explain my views on this. It is just sad when people mention something like vitamin C and aura healing in the same dismissive breath. I have to ask if they really can't see how a vitamin might have real bioactive effects. This thinking just becomes dogmatized and eventually harmful, I am especially concerned in the area of psychedelic sciences, which have shown some amazing, objective results, but are subject to immediate dismissal by the same "objective" intellectuals who demand data and then don't really want to see it. It's zealous and tiresome.

 

[libertyyne]

I think my previous posts explain my views on this. It is just sad when people mention something like vitamin C and aura healing in the same dismissive breath. I have to ask if they really can't see how a vitamin might have real bioactive effects. This thinking just becomes dogmatized and eventually harmful, I am especially concerned in the area of psychedelic sciences, which have shown some amazing, objective results, but are subject to immediate dismissal by the same "objective" intellectuals who demand data and then don't really want to see it. It's zealous and tiresome.

Lets be clear.
Homeopathy=junk.
Reiki= junk based on our current understanding and evidence.
Chiropractic medicine= mostly junk.
Acupuncture= limited application .
psychedelic drugs= interesting results for ptsd, depression and mental health in general.
Vitamin C= some evidence supporting use.

I have experienced some of these therapies first hand, I have no intrinsic desire to discredit them.

I am completely and utterly open to the results of trials that may question me. I mean, i love, and I mean love debate in medicine : stenting vs medicication. endaterectomy vs stenting, fetal heart tone monitoring vs manual auscultation.

 

[kb1900]

I think my previous posts explain my views on this. It is just sad when people mention something like vitamin C and aura healing in the same dismissive breath. I have to ask if they really can't see how a vitamin might have real bioactive effects. This thinking just becomes dogmatized and eventually harmful, I am especially concerned in the area of psychedelic sciences, which have shown some amazing, objective results, but are subject to immediate dismissal by the same "objective" intellectuals who demand data and then don't really want to see it. It's zealous and tiresome.

??? where is this happening. in this thread or otherwsie? no-one is blatantly dismissing anything EXCEPT that which has limited scientific validity with regards to efficacy

as an aside: i actually got to meet a depressive cancer patient who tried shrooms after the psilocybin trials btw. it was an incredibly informative conversation

 

[roaringunicorn]

So many flavors and we all choose salt. Lets all agree to disagree.

 

[libertyyne]

So many flavors and we all choose salt. Lets all agree to disagree.

NO. This is a false equivalency. Either defend your intervention through evidence or fade away .

 

[Astra]

So many flavors and we all choose salt. Lets all agree to disagree.

nah. Lets all agree to back up our claims with scientific evidence.