Naturopathic Medicine?

BU Medical Sciences
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ZedsDed said:
I'm pretty sure she has a solid understanding of chemistry.
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Lost In Transcription said:
Sometimes drugs have baddie chemicals attached to them or as inactive components, but this is true for both nature and man made compounds. Nature has done a great job through evolution to produce many strong drugs, both good and bad, and we can use science to figure out what we want to keep and not
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Exactly why I am saying look more into the topic. Positives and negatives to both methodologies, our way of medicine in America is not always the best solution.
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ZedsDed said:
That's actually what I was referring to.


I'm not entirely sure those data say what you think they're saying. I mean, how does evidence of some medicinal benefits in some herbs used by homeopaths lend credence to naturopathic methods?
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I'm not sure if you understand what I was arguing. I think it is irresponsible to discredit an entire field when some of their methods are legitimate. Some of the flaws with our own system may be improved with methods from their system once we examine them ourselves.
 
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ronaldinho22 said:
I'm not sure if you understand what I was arguing. I think it is irresponsible to discredit an entire field when some of their methods are legitimate. Some of the flaws with our own system may be improved with methods from their system once we examine them ourselves.
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Depends on the field, I discredit Nazis, the KKK, and communists....
 
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ronaldinho22 said:
I'm not sure if you understand what I was arguing. I think it is irresponsible to discredit an entire field when some of their methods are legitimate. Some of the flaws with our own system may be improved with methods from their system once we examine them ourselves.
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I don't think you understand what HE was arguing.

I was trying to think of a slick evolutionary/probabilistic metaphor, but I decided to keep it simple: even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The methods were not correct. They are disregarded as a field because the methods do not give reliable results. They do not BRING results, so they are not really methods. They are broken clocks.
 
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freak7 said:
"Say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, at least it's an ethos"
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mccarthy.jpg
 
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Lost In Transcription said:
I don't think you understand what HE was arguing.

I was trying to think of a slick evolutionary/probabilistic metaphor, but I decided to keep it simple: even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The methods were not correct. They are disregarded as a field because the methods do not give reliable results. They do not BRING results, so they are not really methods. They are broken clocks.
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Exactly. My grandma may have some intuition that yogurt is "good for you" even if she doesn't understand what a pro-biotic is. She also thinks cracking an egg before travel brings good luck.
 
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ZedsDed said:
Exactly. My grandma may have some intuition that yogurt is "good for you" even if she doesn't understand what a pro-biotic is. She also thinks cracking an egg before travel brings good luck.
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This is scientifically accurate.
 
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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

ronaldinho22 said:
My point was that some naturopathic medicine methods do work that were specifically developed in the East. A pill such as Tylenol may not be the best option for treatment due to side effects when a natural spice incorporated into food that will treat the same illness.
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roaringunicorn said:
Be a doctor in the 21st century
Train for over a decade to become a great doctor
Prescribe acupuncture and risk loosing license because it doesnt work.......but HEY ITS POPULAR
logic 100

Medical student cocky enough to think she/he somehow knows more about medicine than the EU health system. wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication. Your medical western-centrism is showing through.
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Oh no... 4chan is leaking
 
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ronaldinho22 said:
This is such an ignorant and immature statement to make. You completely ignore evidence regarding a medicine topic that I post and attack an entire region? Has it ever occurred to you that these regions are poorer in general which may contribute to their health and sanitation standards (shoutout colonialism)? Drop the ethnocentrism and evaluate the facts please.
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Nh2sGtL.gif
 
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roaringunicorn said:
Be a doctor in the 21st century
Train for over a decade to become a great doctor
Prescribe acupuncture and risk loosing license because it doesnt work.......but HEY ITS POPULAR
logic 100

Medical student cocky enough to think she/he somehow knows more about medicine than the EU health system. wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication. Your medical western-centrism is showing through.
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What's showing through is your anti-western and appeal to nature bias. If you understood science you would see why posters are trying to explain that the process is acultural and that chemistry unravels common perceptions of "natural." EU regulating something isn't evidence for it's mechanism of action or efficacy. Prince Charles put quackery into the NHS, not science.

Are the major problems with healthcare and research? Of course. But naturopathy and other alternative medicine is dismissed because it embraces things that have not only been not researched for safety and efficacy , but therapies that have been researched with over and over results showing placebo (or worse). Acupuncture and other alternative therapies are based on pre-scientific knowledge and beliefs (rivers in china relating to human anatomy etc.) and some contradict very basic elements of physiology or even physics (i.e. homeopathy). Posters here are trumpeting tooth fairy science, you can write a study on how n=20 tooth fairy believers earned X amount more than non-tooth fairy subjects, that isn't evidence for the underlying phenomenon, no matter how badly you want to twist it into proving your belief. Keeping an open mind would result in the opposite of siding with such therapies.
 
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Sounds like these ND's are much more dangerous than those charlatan DNPs. They are really hurting people. Why don't the AMA and the SDN warriors do something about these people to protect the public?
 
IknowImnotadoctor said:
Sounds like these ND's are much more dangerous than those charlatan DNPs. They are really hurting people. Why don't the AMA and the SDN warriors do something about these people to protect the public?
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Yeah, the NDs cant prescribe real drugs.
 
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libertyyne said:
and they have DEA licences and full prescription power? Chiropracters refer to themselves as doctors as well.
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Not yet but they are sure getting there. These ND medical schools boast their own licensing exams and accreditation bodies. Prescribing in California is just the start. Wish the AMA would do something to protect our patients. SDN warriors could really make healthcare a safer place by shedding a light on this dangerous issue.
 
IknowImnotadoctor said:
Not yet but they are sure getting there. These ND medical schools boast their own licensing exams and accreditation bodies. Prescribing in California is just the start. Wish the AMA would do something to protect our patients. SDN warriors could really make healthcare a safer place by shedding a light on this dangerous issue.
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Nah I think SDN is good right now.NDs probably have scientific training as good as NPs. PLus NDs cant order imaging or schedule I-V drugs.
 
libertyyne said:
and they have DEA licences and full prescription power? Chiropracters refer to themselves as doctors as well.
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They have to have a supervising physician to prescribe. Also, they apparently can order imaging and labs. Creepily, it also makes a point to mention that they can perform gyn exams.
 
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JustLookingforAnswers said:
Is it reliable & effective? I have heard many criticisms regarding herbal medicine and it does look interesting, but I am afraid it might be BS lol. Can anyone clarify? Thanks.
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To be fair, I understand why people want to turn to natural remedies and herbal supplements. Maybe it is expensive to treat a medical condition, maybe the condition isn't well managed with current medical techniques. Maybe the doctor you have isn't the best. I think that while it is important to improve the efficacy and cost of our current medical treatments, they are better than natural supplements which have not been evaluated. When I was in junior high in bought into that field. Let me tell you that getting proper medical treatment from a licensed doctor(MD/DO) is much much preferable to natural remedies.

In short, no they aren't effective but we like to be optimistic and hope they work. I think education is extremely important so that we can prevent the spread of misinformation. I also think that drug companies need to be more transparent. Medical treatments need to improve as do the costs of the treatments that do work.
 
IknowImnotadoctor said:
Sounds like these ND's are much more dangerous than those charlatan DNPs. They are really hurting people. Why don't the AMA and the SDN warriors do something about these people to protect the public?
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There should be something done to protect the public. SDN doesn't care because the majority of them live in a medicine bubble, I would wager the majority don't really know what a naturopath is, let alone interacted with one. NPs however, they have experience with in the workplace or exposure to their education and training at some point. To the average med student, naturopaths and chiropractors are not a threat, whereas NPs are seen as such.

There's not outrage against quacks because
1) The majority of the public is ignorant of differences between persons calling themselves health practitioners, practical access to evidence & data, and science/medicine in general.
2) Many have the appeal to nature fallacy, thinking that if a therapy has a natural sounding name or have been told it's ancient then it will be safe and ideal.
3) Only a subset of the population seeks out quacks, mainly affluent people who aren't sick at all, and desperate people turning to it as a hail mary. The affluent are just wasting their money, but would probably waste it on something equally useless to tell themselves they have a "natural" lifestyle, and as long as they only get is winter colds, fatigue, and GI symptoms from eating too much, there isn't an imminent danger (and confirm in their minds it's "preventative"). Those with cancer and other terminal or chronic illnesses is where my blood really gets boiling, as many of these desperate people dump as much money as they can into these charlatans, ending in emotional and financial devastation.
4) While there are quite dangerous pseudoscientific therapies, many of them have no physiological effect, but because there is no effect the body also don't produce any side effects. If a naturopath gives someone 10x the dose of ginger oil, homeopathy, or aromatherapy, the patient won't even be able to tell. If the NP gives 2x the dose it can kill someone.
 
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Staphylococcus Aureus said:
There should be something done to protect the public. SDN doesn't care because the majority of them live in a medicine bubble, I would wager the majority don't really know what a naturopath is, let alone interacted with one. NPs however, they have experience with in the workplace or exposure to their education and training at some point. To the average med student, naturopaths and chiropractors are not a threat, whereas NPs are seen as such.

There's not outrage against quacks because
1) The majority of the public are ignorant of differences between persons calling themselves health practitioners, practical access to evidence & data, and science/medicine in general.
2) Many have the appeal to nature fallacy, thinking that if a therapy has a natural sounding name or have been told it's ancient then it will be safe and ideal.
3) Only a subset of the population seeks out quacks, mainly affluent people who aren't sick at all, and desperate people turning to it as a hail mary. The affluent are just wasting their money, but would probably waste it on something equally useless to tell themselves they have a "natural" lifestyle, and as long as they only get is winter colds, fatigue, and GI symptoms from eating too much, there isn't an imminent danger (and confirm in their minds it's "preventative"). Those with cancer and other terminal or chronic illnesses is where my blood really gets boiling, as many of these desperate people dump as much money as they can into these charlatans, ending in emotional and financial devastation.
4) While there are quite dangerous pseudoscientific therapies, many of them have no physiological effect, but because there is no effect the body also don't produce any side effects. If a naturopath gives someone 10x the dose of ginger oil, homeopathy, or aromatherapy, the patient won't even be able to tell. If the NP gives 2x the dose it can kill someone.
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NDs are claiming parity with Physicians. Please read their lobby organizations propaganda with a discerning eye. Patients, even educated ones, could very easily be deceived, I.e. Steve Jobs.

https://aanmc.org/resources/comparing-nd-md-curricula/

I see so much foaming at the mouth hatred for NPs while ND practice just 6 months ago is now putting the patients of the state of California at risk. If the SDN warriors really cared they would do something to protect the public.
 
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IknowImnotadoctor said:
NDs are claiming parity with Physicians. Please read their lobby organizations propaganda with a discerning eye. Patients, even educated ones, could very easily be deceived, I.e. Steve Jobs.

https://aanmc.org/resources/comparing-nd-md-curricula/

I see so much foaming at the mouth hatred for NPs while ND practice just 6 months ago is now putting the patients of the state of California at risk. If the SDN warriors really cared they would do something to protect the public.
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I'm in agreement with you
 
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Wait, this thread is still around? what's being discussed after so many weeks?

While we're basing naturopathic medicine, have you guys heard many of those anecdotes of "I tried everything in modern science and tried everything doctors had to offer, and none of it worked, but then I tried this remedy and it fixed the problem! So how dare you hate on natural medicine!" People use this as evidence that naturopathy should be our first line of treatment.
 
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UNMedGa said:
Wait, this thread is still around? what's being discussed after so many weeks?

While we're basing naturopathic medicine, have you guys heard many of those anecdotes of "I tried everything in modern science and tried everything doctors had to offer, and none of it worked, but then I tried this remedy and it fixed the problem! So how dare you hate on natural medicine!" People use this as evidence that naturopathy should be our first line of treatment.
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Yup. People fall into the trap of attributing whatever thing they're doing when they start to get better as the cure. They don't take into account that they most likely got better on their own and falsely attribute their recovery to that root they ate. Or rubbing Vicks on their baby's feet.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Yup. People fall into the trap of attributing whatever thing they're doing when they start to get better as the cure. They don't take into account that they most likely got better on their own and falsely attribute their recovery to that root they ate. Or rubbing Vicks on their baby's feet.
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Antibiotics and viral infections!
 
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libertyyne said:
Antibiotics and viral infections!
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I brought my daughter home from the pediatrician once without antibiotics (she had a virus), and someone asked me why they didn't give her anything. I explained that she had a virus and that antibiotics wouldn't do anything except mess up her gut microbiome and increase antibiotic resistance. This person responded, completely seriously and with mild alarm, "What if it's a bacterial virus!?"
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I brought my daughter home from the pediatrician once without antibiotics (she had a virus), and someone asked me why they didn't give her anything. I explained that she had a virus and that antibiotics wouldn't do anything except mess up her gut microbiome and increase antibiotic resistance. This person responded, completely seriously and with mild alarm, "What if it's a bacterial virus!?"
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Bacteriophage? That would be good! They are attempting to use bacteriophages to treat infections ! Lol.
 
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