Naturopathic Medicine?

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libertyyne said:
NO. This is a false equivalency. Either defend your intervention through evidence or fade away .
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kek, I dont think so
Astra said:
nah. Lets all agree to back up our claims with scientific evidence.
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Europe and Asia accept acupuncture as real and legitimate form of treatment. As to how and why it works go ask NICE and find out from them I dont feel like being an errand boy pulling up links. My biggest concern is your likening of acupuncture with homeopathy and such.
 
roaringunicorn said:
Europe and Asia accept acupuncture as real and legitimate form of treatment
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People used mercury as medicine in the past. Just because its popular doesn't mean its a valid form of treatment.


roaringunicorn said:
As to how and why it works go ask NICE and find out from them I dont feel like being an errand boy pulling up links
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When you make claims, its your duty to provide proof. If you don't feel like being an errand boy, that's fine. But your claims hold no weight until you provide sources.


roaringunicorn said:
My biggest concern is your likening of acupuncture with homeopathy and such.
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My original statement was in reference to people in this thread making claims without evidence. That's all. I have no opinion on acupuncture or homeopathy.
 
Astra said:
People used mercury as medicine in the past. Just because its popular doesn't mean its a valid form of treatment.




When you make claims, its your duty to provide proof. If you don't feel like being an errand boy, that's fine. But your claims hold no weight until you provide sources.




My original statement was in reference to people in this thread making claims without evidence. That's all. I have no opinion on acupuncture or homeopathy.
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Be a doctor in the 21st century
Train for over a decade to become a great doctor
Prescribe acupuncture and risk loosing license because it doesnt work.......but HEY ITS POPULAR
logic 100

Medical student cocky enough to think she/he somehow knows more about medicine than the EU health system. wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication. Your medical western-centrism is showing through.
 
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roaringunicorn said:
kek, I dont think so


Europe and Asia accept acupuncture as real and legitimate form of treatment. As to how and why it works go ask NICE and find out from them I dont feel like being an errand boy pulling up links. My biggest concern is your likening of acupuncture with homeopathy and such.
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As an aside, America is way better than Europe and Asia. 😉

I figured this thread could use some nationalism...
 
roaringunicorn said:
Be a doctor in the 21st century
Train for over a decade to become a great doctor
Prescribe acupuncture and risk loosing license because it doesnt work.......but HEY ITS POPULAR
logic 100

Medical student cocky enough to think she/he somehow knows more about medicine than the EU health system. wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication. Your medical western-centrism is showing through.
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Losing*
 
roaringunicorn said:
wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works
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Yes. That's called evidence based medicine. That's how real doctors practice.

Edit: Although we care more about if it works. How it works is always interesting, because it can lead to better treatments, more uses, etc. But just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean we don't use it. If it works, it works.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Yes. That's called evidence based medicine. That's how real doctors practice.

Edit: Although we care more about if it works. How it works is always interesting, because it can lead to better treatments, more uses, etc. But just because we don't know how something works doesn't mean we don't use it. If it works, it works.
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[Chorus - Rihanna:]
Work, work, work, work, work, work
He say me have to
Work, work, work, work, work, work!
He see me do me
Dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt, dirt!
So me put in
Work, work, work, work, work, work

Who knew Rihanna was a scientist?
 
roaringunicorn said:
wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication.
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You're right, we can't read every publication. So, to make sure we are practicing evidence based medicine we have large groups of doctors and researchers whose jobs are to supervise each trial and read through the publications concerning each medication before it comes to market. That's the FDA, and there are 3 phases of trials for every drug that is approved in the nation to make sure its not just safe, but also more effective than a placebo. Most drugs fail the trial. You can't sell a drug that fails the trial.

To make sure our practices in general are evidence based, we also have large groups of physicians within our specialties who review all of the studies and then put out evidence based guidelines about whether a new practice is safe and effective. For example they recently came out with a series of studies that state that topical beta blockers make hemangiomas go away in children. I have not read these studies. I have, however, read the American Academy of Pediatrics section on Dermatology guidelines concerning those studies

Even then, though, that's a lot to read, right? There are a lot of guidelines, and a lot of metastudies. Am I honestly saying that I am really reading even consensus guideline and recommendations on all of things that I do? Yes, yes I am. That's why this training is so long and so difficult. You memorize nonstop all day every day for multiple years before starting clinicals, you memorize nonstop throughout clinicals, and you take tests every few years to make sure you are keeping up with the recommendations. Even as an attending I am putting in multiple hours per week, just reading on patients. You are stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every relevant metastudy and guideline. From 11 to 17 years, depending on your specialty.
 
I occasionally scribe in an allergy clinic and I can't tell you how irritated the doctors get when a patient utters the words "my naturopathic doctor". It's actually quite amusing for me. But then you see the moms and dads who come in with their child who is in a lot of distress, talk to the docs about how their essential oil diffusers aren't working as well as they did when they first started polluting their childs bedroom with it. Quack quack quack.

On a separate but semi-related note. It can't be ignored that most of our western medicine and pharmaceuticals have origins in the natural world (i.e. the Amazon jungle, various trees, roots, bushes, flowers, etc). But it's one thing to respect the fact that our medicines have origins in these "undeveloped" and "non-western" worlds, and it's a completely different thing to refuse Zyrtec and Flonase and immunotherapy injections to use essential oils instead.
 
roaringunicorn said:
Be a doctor in the 21st century
Train for over a decade to become a great doctor
Prescribe acupuncture and risk loosing license because it doesnt work.......but HEY ITS POPULAR
logic 100

Medical student cocky enough to think she/he somehow knows more about medicine than the EU health system. wew I wonder do you approach all the typical western style treatments with such skepticism asking for detailed proof on how it works, because let me tell you, would be stuck in school for a looooooooong time reading through every single publication. Your medical western-centrism is showing through.
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It's not that medical students are "cocky enough to think they know more".

It's that in medical school, you learn the evidence behind every treatment. It's n evidence-based system. In fact, we are dangerously slow at applying new interventions/therapies because there is such a high level of evidence needed for treatments, especially after failed medicines like Boniva, thalidomides, etc in the 20th century.

It's not western centrism. You can choose to receive non-evidence based treatments if you prefer a non-western (evidence/technology based) method, but do not pretend it is equivalent in an evidence based system.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...inal_properties_of_Ginger_Zingiber_officinale

Here is another study done showing antibacterial properties of ginger. Some of these herbal remedies are legit and have been used for thousands of years. I was raised under these so I have firsthand experience. Obviously certain serious ailments need western medicine but many common sicknesses do not.
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Guess what? Western medicine recommends such treatments that work. That isn't some sort of western-exclusive treatment.

Western medicine employs other herbs/natural rememdies that actually work, such as Tylenol, penicillin, etc.
 
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This is 100% correct. Unfortunately, too many Americans equate "natural" with "good". Arsenic, belladonna and radon are also natural!

One of my OMM colleagues, my dear friend Dr KC, is one of the "true believers" in OMM. Fine.

But she also believes in the healing power of magnets! Now, we're getting into quack zone. I politely tried to point this out to her and one of the defenses she pulled out of her hat (which is typical of a proponent of pseudoscience) was the "70/80/90% of modern drugs have origins in nature" arguement. I simply said, "Yeah, but we don't treat headaches with willow bark tea anymore, we use aspirin."


Espressso said:
On a separate but semi-related note. It can't be ignored that most of our western medicine and pharmaceuticals have origins in the natural world (i.e. the Amazon jungle, various trees, roots, bushes, flowers, etc). But it's one thing to respect the fact that our medicines have origins in these "undeveloped" and "non-western" worlds, and it's a completely different thing to refuse Zyrtec and Flonase and immunotherapy injections to use essential oils instead.
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roaringunicorn said:
Just to quickly point out: Over half of all doctors in the UK prescribe acupuncture ( I wonder whats the percentage in the US anyone know? )The governments National Institute for Health and Care Excellence actually recommends acupuncture as the go to treatment for back pains and headaches. Please dont tell pfizer this or they might do more clearly unbiased paid studies.
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No they don't. That's a blatant lie.

The NIH insurance will cover it in order to support cultural health, because that is important to people's overall health. But that does not mean, medically, it is doing anything. If you work for them (*cough cough* which I might have done at some point) they are pretty upfront about this.

There is a VERY strong consensus by the NIH and the literature that acupuncture is NOTHING outside of placebo effect. That doesn't mean it is useless- the placebo effect is very strong and if you can manipulate it, why not? But it is not a medical remedy for anything.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765771/
Pain is a difficult thing to treat and not well understood, but it is well known that a lot of it is psycho-somatic, so placebo effects are useless. So acupuncture DOES something, but that doesn't mean it's comparable to medical treatment or does anything outside of a placebo effect (which is strong).


I'm sorry that you chose to go into non-MD/DO medicine, but that doesn't mean you are factually or morally correct to **** on western medicine.
 
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@Goro and @EspressoDrip42 , the thing people don't realize is that obviously some natural remedies work. There is an underlying, mechanistic reason why they work, and western medicine/science uncovers this reason. I wish people would realize that "nature" is also made of chemicals, and therefore has a reason why it works. It doesn't just work with magic.
 
Lost In Transcription said:
@Goro and @EspressoDrip42 , the thing people don't realize is that obviously some natural remedies work. There is an underlying, mechanistic reason why they work, and western medicine/science uncovers this reason. I wish people would realize that "nature" is also made of chemicals, and therefore has a reason why it works. It doesn't just work with magic.
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Scientific method="arrogant." The ancient ones were wise because reasons and anecdotal evidence.

:smack:

Honestly? This is a waste of your time. You're arguing wave-particle duality with an opposition that insists the world is flat.
 
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Espressso said:
I occasionally scribe in an allergy clinic and I can't tell you how irritated the doctors get when a patient utters the words "my naturopathic doctor". It's actually quite amusing for me. But then you see the moms and dads who come in with their child who is in a lot of distress, talk to the docs about how their essential oil diffusers aren't working as well as they did when they first started polluting their childs bedroom with it. Quack quack quack.
Click to expand...

I will say on a quick note that not everything people assume is quackery is. Part of EBM is accepting things that have evidence to support them. For example, I just read a study where peppermint oil inhalers performed just as well as Zofran in managing chemotherapy-associated nausea and vomiting. That said, just because something might have a limited use doesn't mean all related things can be used to treat anything.

On a separate but semi-related note. It can't be ignored that most of our western medicine and pharmaceuticals have origins in the natural world (i.e. the Amazon jungle, various trees, roots, bushes, flowers, etc). But it's one thing to respect the fact that our medicines have origins in these "undeveloped" and "non-western" worlds, and it's a completely different thing to refuse Zyrtec and Flonase and immunotherapy injections to use essential oils instead.
Click to expand...

Agreed. In fact, that should show that medicine doesn't just throw out treatments because they are "alternative" or "natural." So is penicillin.

Edit: what I mean by that is because most of our treatments have natural origins, when "Western Medicine" rejects using orange peels as a cancer treatment, it's probably for a good reason.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I will say on a quick note that not everything people assume is quackery is. Part of EBM is accepting things that have evidence to support them. For example, I just read a study where peppermint oil inhalers performed just as well as Zofran in managing chemotherapy-associated nausea and vomiting. That said, just because something might have a limited use doesn't mean all related things can be used to treat anything.

Agreed. In fact, that should show that medicine doesn't just throw out treatments because they are "alternative" or "natural." So is penicillin.

Edit: what I mean by that is because most of our treatments have natural origins, when "Western Medicine" rejects using orange peels as a cancer treatment, it's probably for a good reason.
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Well stated.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
I will say on a quick note that not everything people assume is quackery is. Part of EBM is accepting things that have evidence to support them. For example, I just read a study where peppermint oil inhalers performed just as well as Zofran in managing chemotherapy-associated nausea and vomiting. That said, just because something might have a limited use doesn't mean all related things can be used to treat anything.



Agreed. In fact, that should show that medicine doesn't just throw out treatments because they are "alternative" or "natural." So is penicillin.

Edit: what I mean by that is because most of our treatments have natural origins, when "Western Medicine" rejects using orange peels as a cancer treatment, it's probably for a good reason.
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exactly
 
I would say the propaganda being pushed of doctors being "evil rich people who don't care" doesn't help either. This leads part of the public to mistrust physicians and the scientific efforts that propel medicine. In turn, this opens up the door for the quacks to step in and make money from hydrotherapy and cupping. Too many are trying to do the job of a doctor without a fraction of the knowledge base and training. Everyone wants to be a doctor, but no one wants to do all that chemistry, gross anatomy, and then work 16 hours a day in residency.
 
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Being able to consult Dr Google doesn't help either.

dwgrubbs1s said:
I would say the propaganda being pushed of doctors being "evil rich people who don't care" doesn't help either. This leads part of the public to mistrust physicians and the scientific efforts that propel medicine. In turn, this opens up the door for the quacks to step in and make money from hydrotherapy and cupping. Too many are trying to do the job of a doctor without a fraction of the knowledge base and training. Everyone wants to be a doctor, but no one wants to do all that chemistry, gross anatomy, and then work 16 hours a day in residency.
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Lost In Transcription said:
Guess what? Western medicine recommends such treatments that work. That isn't some sort of western-exclusive treatment.

Western medicine employs other herbs/natural rememdies that actually work, such as Tylenol, penicillin, etc.
Click to expand...

My point was that some naturopathic medicine methods do work that were specifically developed in the East. A pill such as Tylenol may not be the best option for treatment due to side effects when a natural spice incorporated into food that will treat the same illness.
 
BehindBlueEyes said:
Yes, because India and Asia are such models of health and sanitation in the world... no doubt thanks to these remedies.
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This is such an ignorant and immature statement to make. You completely ignore evidence regarding a medicine topic that I post and attack an entire region? Has it ever occurred to you that these regions are poorer in general which may contribute to their health and sanitation standards (shoutout colonialism)? Drop the ethnocentrism and evaluate the facts please.
 
Lost In Transcription said:
, the thing people don't realize is that obviously some natural remedies work. There is an underlying, mechanistic reason why they work, and western medicine/science uncovers this reason. I wish people would realize that "nature" is also made of chemicals, and therefore has a reason why it works. It doesn't just work with magic.
Click to expand...

I have been basically arguing this the entire time while everyone has rejected my point that some natural remedies work. I would like to add that when western medicine/science uncovers the reason behind a natural remedy working, this does not make the remedy a western remedy when in fact it has been developed in the east long before USA was even a country. Someone earlier tried to make that point but I think they deleted their post.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
I have been basically arguing this the entire time while everyone has rejected my point that some natural remedies work. I would like to add that when western medicine/science uncovers the reason behind a natural remedy working, this does not make the remedy a western remedy when in fact it has been developed in the east long before USA was even a country. Someone earlier tried to make that point but I think they deleted their post.
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Not everyone is arguing against you. Several of us made the point that there really is no such thing as "Western medicine." There is just medicine. If something devised in the East works as evidenced by RCT, it will be brought into the fold of medicine regardless of where it came from. If it has no demonstrable benefit after repeated trials, it won't be. That's how medicine works.

There are treatments that have been used for a long time that are one day found to be no better than placebo, and the guidelines change. It happens all the time, including to things you'd consider to be originally part of "Western" medicine.
 
dwgrubbs1s said:
I would say the propaganda being pushed of doctors being "evil rich people who don't care" doesn't help either. This leads part of the public to mistrust physicians and the scientific efforts that propel medicine. In turn, this opens up the door for the quacks to step in and make money from hydrotherapy and cupping. Too many are trying to do the job of a doctor without a fraction of the knowledge base and training. Everyone wants to be a doctor, but no one wants to do all that chemistry, gross anatomy, and then work 16 hours a day in residency.
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That Dr. Oz though...
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Not everyone is arguing against you. Several of us made the point that there really is no such thing as "Western medicine." There is just medicine. If something devised in the East works as evidenced by RCT, it will be brought into the fold of medicine regardless of where it came from. If it has no demonstrable benefit after repeated trials, it won't be. That's how medicine works.

There are treatments that have been used for a long time that are one day found to be no better than placebo, and the guidelines change. It happens all the time, including to things you'd consider to be originally part of "Western" medicine.
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Fair point. I just think that dismissing the entire field of naturopathic medicine, which it seems some people have done, is extremely unwise. Some methods from naturopathic medicine have been proven to work and others may be proven to work in the future. Obviously some are bs but not all.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
Fair point. I just think that dismissing the entire field of naturopathic medicine, which it seems some people have done, is extremely unwise. Some methods from naturopathic medicine have been proven to work and others may be proven to work in the future. Obviously some are bs but not all.
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I don't think anyone is outright dismissing "natural" treatments. As I posted up thread, Penicillin is natural. So are many of the drugs and treatments we use. What people are dismissing is naturopathy's tendency to ignore EBM and just go with whatever old wives tale sounds most appropriate so they can justify their existence (since they can't prescribe natural medications that actually work, like antibiotics). So instead they give you some root to eat even though tons of RCTs have shown no benefit from it, claiming that "Western medicine" is just trying to scam them out of money.

That willful ignorance and deception of patients is what people dismiss outright. At least speaking for myself.
 
@Matthew9Thirtyfive

I respect your thoughts. People did dismiss the entire field though. Look at the first page. A question was asked whether herbal medicine is effective at all and many people wrote that it is garbage.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
@Matthew9Thirtyfive

I respect your thoughts. People did dismiss the entire field though. Look at the first page. A question was asked whether herbal medicine is effective at all and many people wrote that it is garbage.
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Yeah, I'm sure some people completely dismiss anything that remotely sounds "Eastern" or "alternative" or something. But there is a difference between dismissing the field of naturopathy and dismissing natural treatments altogether. I'm sure a few people did, but I think most of the posters were saying that naturopathy is a sham, but that the alternative treatments that have proven benefit are not.

Homeopathy is a sham. Chiropractic is a sham. Acupuncture is probably a sham. These things get dismissed because they've been studied and shown to be useless.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
My point was that some naturopathic medicine methods do work that were specifically developed in the East. A pill such as Tylenol may not be the best option for treatment due to side effects when a natural spice incorporated into food that will treat the same illness.
Click to expand...
A "pill" such as Tylenol or ASPRIN were once "natural spices".

Chemicals are chemicals.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
@Matthew9Thirtyfive

I respect your thoughts. People did dismiss the entire field though. Look at the first page. A question was asked whether herbal medicine is effective at all and many people wrote that it is garbage.
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You seem to not understand that the "field" is dismissed because they largely ignore the scientific method. No one has time to go around disproving every claim asserted without evidence.

Being kinda right some of the time and usually by accident doesn't validate a bad methodology.
 
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ZedsDed said:
You seem to not understand that the "field" is dismissed because they largely ignore the scientific method. No one has time to go around disproving every claim asserted without evidence.

Being kinda right some of the time and usually by accident doesn't validate a bad methodology.
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Have you taken the time to read some of the links I provided a few posts back? It's certainly worth investigating when some of the claims provide progress.
 
ronaldinho22 said:
Have you taken the time to read some of the links I provided a few posts back? It's certainly worth investigating when some of the claims provide progress.
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That's actually what I was referring to.
ronaldinho22 said:
http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/abo...r-questions/can-turmeric-prevent-bowel-cancer
https://www.researchgate.net/public...inal_properties_of_Ginger_Zingiber_officinale
http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-supplements/ingredientmono-614-cardamom.aspx?activeingredientid=614&
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ronaldinho22 said:
My point was that some naturopathic medicine methods do work that were specifically developed in the East.
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I'm not entirely sure those data say what you think they're saying. I mean, how does evidence of some medicinal benefits in some herbs used by homeopaths lend credence to naturopathic methods?
 
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ronaldinho22 said:
I highly suggest you look more into this topic. You will be surprised at what you find.
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I did. It was called a Bachelor's of Science + 5 years of research.

You have to think of chemicals as building blocks. Whether natural or synthetic, everything is built from the same elements. Sometimes drugs have baddie chemicals attached to them or as inactive components, but this is true for both nature and man made compounds. Nature has done a great job through evolution to produce many strong drugs, both good and bad, and we can use science to figure out what we want to keep and not. It's that simple (but difficult in practice).

Everything has a cause, and the cause is not magic.
 
Lost In Transcription said:
I did. It was called a Bachelor's of Science + 5 years of research.
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200_s.gif
OHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
 
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