Dismiss Notice
Hey Texans—join us for a DFW meetup! Click here to learn more.

NBDE Part 1 Standardization

Discussion in 'NBDE Exams & Licensure Exams' started by DREDAY, May 13, 2007.

  1. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    I called ADA myself and spoke to a NBDE coordinator to find out what is going on with the scoring on the new format. So here are the points they told me:

    #1. The scoring of the exam is based on a SCALE and not a CURVE. Therefore, your score does not depend on how other students do. The scale for this exam was determined by the test makers, based on pilot exams and previous board exams. So essentially we are using a scale based on the curve of previous exams. That explains why people are scoring lower.

    #2. Each question is worth a different amount of points. Questions that are considered "harder" are worth more points than "easier" questions. That is how two raw scores of 83 can each amount to a 92 overall or a 89 over all.

    #3. The coordinator assured me that a score of 90 on the new exam is equivalent to a 90 in the old exam.

    #4. A score of 90 is considered to be around the top 20%.

    #5. Scores from each different exam format can be compared to each other because each format has an equal number of easy, medium, and hard questions.

    #6. There will be a recalibration of the scale in september/october of this year.
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. MitPat

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    200
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Dental Student
    Nice info thanks a lot...............:thumbup:
     
  4. PickPocket

    PickPocket New Member
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    hey thnks dude... but wat would u mean by "recalibration"... ur final point.... recalibration by sept./oct.....

    y would thy wnt to recalibrate if the 90 of new pattern is equivalent to 90 of the old....???????????:confused:
     
  5. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14


    Well that is what they hope for. Right now they have a score of 90 set at about top 20%. This is all based on that predetermined scale that I told you about. However there is no way for them to be sure that a 90 is really top 20% unless they get enough scores. So in sept/oct they will have acquired enough scores from us (the guinea pigs) to determine the PERCENTILE they have determined for a 90 is actually correct. If its, not they may have to adjust accordingly. I have a feeling they will have to adjust it.
     
  6. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    I urge more of you to call and ask more questions... Just in case I missed anything. The supervisor I spoke with said many faculty have been calling him to ask how to interpret the scores. He said he had explained to them how the scores should be interpreted. When I asked him "how" he was either being vague or maybe I just couldn't understand him. In any case it would be good if more of you can call them and tells us what you get from what they say.
     
  7. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,392
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Attending Physician, Dentist
  8. ctdentist

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Non-Student
    If the ADA is going to recalibrate later during the year.Wont it mean students appearing in the coming 2-3 months will score lower than students appearing after October.How can it be a fair way of comparing students if that is so.I am taking the exam in July and am worried about getting lower scores for the same amount of hard work vis a vis someone appearing in October.
     
  9. jonnytight

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    I spoke with DREDAY today and this really worries me....

    I feel as though we are being cheated in terms of achieving mid90s to high 90s. I will get into contact with my faculty in charge of my boards perp here at the school and at ADA to see what i going on...

    the more people we tell, the more of a big deal it will be and the higher possibility of coming to a better resolution....


    For people taking the exam in the next 2-3 months (which includes me) How does everyone think about recalibrating our previous scores after they come out with a new scale?
     
  10. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Yeah bro. I dont know. I think you should call ADA and speak to nbde representative to clarify that.
     
  11. mangosta

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Dental
    please pliiiiiiiiiiiis :eek: Dreday just want to give what he knows about that but he does not want to make bigger our preoccupation
    please do not speak like that friends, it does not concern the form in which they give your score, if you know, you know, they cannot give a lower score to you just because they are nbde represent, and the score that they can give to you exam free do not exist, are on the basis is if you know or not, positive better worry if you have all the material necessary to study or if you are studying, i can say that because i want to help.:idea: abaut the score is good to know, for that I am here, but friends, is it no good when you have to worry to moch before to take the exam because you can not leave
    to distract you brain if you going to take a NBDE soon, am sorry again if somebody do no catch me, is because i was reeding and and I began to worry too:thumbup: jiji
     
  12. ScDds

    ScDds Must pass nbde1 :p
    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    "recalibration" can be beneficial as well as not. I doubt they are gonna tell any of us much. I also plan to take this exam in July. I will just study as hard as I can and hope for the best.

    :luck:
     
  13. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    anyone contact ADA again?
     
  14. coolraz

    coolraz Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dentist
    Weird. I called them just today and they said they do not answer any scoring-related questions over the phone. The lady said that all the answers were in the candidate packet and technical guide (which I already read, and it defeintely doesn't answer the much more important question, which is how the scoring changes).

    Anyway, they referred me to Dr. Tsai's fax number (apparently can't call him directly?!) 312-587-4105.

    I really don't like this because it just seems shady now if they don't want to discuss it. I know there's security and all, but if you're not straight up about the changes (and not just the "all the questions are mixed up thing" from the candidate packet), then you're hiding something.

    Anyway, anyone who has a fax, feel free to contact Dr. Tsai and ask him a question in writing.
     
  15. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14

    I called them I was very persistent in speaking with the director.
     
  16. coolraz

    coolraz Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dentist
    What's the name / direct line for the director?
     
  17. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14

    The number I used was the one on the website:

    Contact Information
    Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations
    211 East Chicago Avenue, Suite 600
    Chicago, IL 60611
    800-232-1694
     
  18. ari dubov

    Joined:
    May 2, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Boy, I am glad I am done with those pesty exams, just wandering I heard the scores are only good for 10 years if applying to another state for licensure.


    Dubov, Ari
     
  19. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Since no one has really taken an initiative to call them and voice concerns, I called again. The lady I spoke with said it was the first time she has heard about people scoring lower on the board exams. She said however, that if they continue to receive concerns about the new format they will be forced to look into it before the planned september/october date. She said that they usually only do the statistics on the scores of the exams after enough exams have been taken so they can have an accurate sample size. But if there there is a significant decrease in how people are scoring on the exams, then they will look into it sooner. This is especially important for those of us who graduate in 2009. In my school many students 1/4 of the class took the boards before the new format. The big majority of them (I estimate 90%) scored 90 or higher on the boards. If we will be compared to these students when we apply to specialty programs, we will be at a huge dissadvantage. I urge you to contact ADA and voice your concerns so that we do not end up with the short end of the stick.
     
  20. yuvadoc

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Dental
    I called up ADA and enquired about new pattern scoring. The lady told me to refer to techincal guide. I said that the guide doesn't clear my doubts so she gave me fax number of Dr Tsai and told me to ask him whatever my questions are. So, I faxed Dr Tsai a big letter stating the difference between old and new pattern. Let us see, if i get a response from him. Will keep you guys updated. I also request you all to fax a letter to him with all your questions. The number is 1-312-587-4105.
     
  21. lionelhutz

    lionelhutz Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hey yuvadoc,
    I'd like to see what exactly you faxed Dr. Tsai. I just want to know how I should word the letter and what references you used. Just like everyone who is taking it before September 2007, I'm pretty worried about the grading.

    Oh, and has he replied back?

    Thanks
     
  22. mission

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    hi yuvadoc

    If u don't mind, can u copy paste the letter u sent to ADA.I would like to know the contents and will surely send a fax asap.
    I think many of us would get an idea and we can draft a similar letter and send to ada after seeing urs.
    Imagine if each of us on this thread forward a letter,would definitely make a difference.
     
  23. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    I recently heard that all the students from university of illinois class of 2009 took the old format exam after their first year of dental school. I am not sure how many other dental schools did the same thing. The more students from C/O 2009 that took the old format, the more screwed we are when applying to specialty.
     
  24. PrePerio

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    So...who's with me in doing a GPR then applying with the class of 2010?
     
  25. lionelhutz

    lionelhutz Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    162
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's either that, or retaking part 1 3 months later.
     
  26. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    When they recalibrate the scale, I dont think they will be changing what each raw score is worth. In other words, I dont think they will make a raw score of 83 now worth 94 instead of 90. That would be too messy. I think that IF they recalibrate the scale, it would only be to change the percentile value of each score. So right now a score of 90 and above is equivalent to about top 20 percentile. IF they recalibrate the scores, I think they will just say score of 90 and above = top 10 percentile. That would still not help us at all unless they included the percentile next to our score in our applications. That way the faculty evaluating our applications would know where we stand.
     
  27. sharabi23

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
  28. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14

    I have not taken boards yet. I will take them in July. Everyone I know who has taken the exam has said the same thing about it. I have already written a letter to one of the deans at my school to look into this. She is already inquiring. I urge all of you to do the same, and also contact Dr. Tsai. The more people that make this an issue the quicker they will start doing something about this. This exam is too valuable for our carreers.
     
  29. DBB

    DBB Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    ive been reading these boards for quite a while, and am in the same situation as yall. i retook the exam and scored an 87. now, i had called and personally spoken w this dr. tsai approx. one month ago. he had absolutely NOTHING good to say...really didnt even make any sense; a whole lot of contradicting himself. said a score of 90 now means what it did on the old exam. then he told me that once the sample size is large enough, there will be necessary adjustments at the end of the fiscal year in their ADA addenum paper, etc. this serves me no justice, though, as i am applying for residency right now for 2009 positions.
    one of the deans at my school used to be on this ada/nbde board involved w writing the exams, and said that they will NOT ever disclose any of the secrets to their methods. although, at our school, the deans have noticed ~6pt decrease in the average that they usually see at this time of year. they have made all of the course directors at our school aware, and are currently working to make some sort of scale to compare the 2 exams (it IS tough to compare apples to oranges, though). they mentioned that it may be time to adjust the "magic number" for residencies, i.e. the current cutoffs of 90 for peds and omfs may need readjusted w the new format, etc.
    it seems the main issue w the scoring is that the individual sections are no longer weighted. therefore, a raw score of 82/100 in path is the SAME in weight as an 82/100 in dao. in the past, youd be able to make up for a poor section by doing very well in another. thus, your score was an overall weighted average of the 4 sections. that is no longer the case. this is the way that they grade the nbde part II, and you will notice that there are not too many "high" scores.
    in my opinion, i DO find it relevant to adjust the new exams raw scores to the 1998 score conversion. if you do a search on here, you will see that the STANDARDIZED national average hovers around 85 +/- 0.4 from 1998-2005 (reference an old post by "YAH-E"). when i convert the RAW score national average from the new exam that i took in 2007 into 1998 STANDARDIZED score, magically, it came out to 85.4. it is right on point w every other year. i dont find that to be a coiincidence. thus, converting my RAW scores from 2007 into STANDARDIZED scores w the 1998 conversion, my 87 turns into a 91.
    take it for what its worth... as for what sharabi23 said re: dropping the scores so that less people can specialize, i do not find any merrit in that statement. who said that? no offense, but i do not see that as their reasoning at all. as directors have already noticed, the scores are lower, and they will have no choice but to readjust their standards...
    comments are welcome.
     
  30. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Can I ask you what school you attend? So I can use your school as an example when I discuss this issue with our dean.
     
  31. Fox3

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    I HATE lawyers and hate lawsuits even more but if ever there was a legitimate situation to sue someone (the ADA) that is screwing you over, this is the situation.

    I think the class of 2009 should band together and sue the ADA to either recognize that the 2 scores are not equivalent OR update everyone's new score to make it comparable with the 1998 chart.

    The ADA is NOT stupid. They know exactly what they did. They absolutely know that the two scores (old versus new) are not comparable anymore. I'm sure they have their reasons which we'll likely never know.

    Regardless, they either need to admit it and give a conversion chart (new score + 6.3 points equals an old score) or actually change our scores to make them comparable.

    The Class of 2009 new exam is absolutely screwed in applying to residencies. The cost of not doing a residency is worth many millions of dollars per student (in either real money or happiness). They're screwing with our lives and we need to make them fix this!

    There is only ONE WAY to force a powerful organization to do something they don't want to do and that is to SUE THEM!!!
     
  32. mangosta

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Pre-Dental
    the truth is that they make more money if you have to repeat the exam. and they sell all the products abaut it well is they business in one way:eek:
     
  33. sharabi23

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
  34. dentheartthrob

    dentheartthrob DreamDMDweaver
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    10

    Wow! This growing concern over standardizing scores has caused quite a commotion....The main concern, I think, would be is if these scores would be used in comparision from scores before exams were changed to the computer based format or would it be separated to as what you said
    about sampling a size when the population gets large enough....quite frankly if it's the former than that's a class act suit forwarned....
     
  35. dentheartthrob

    dentheartthrob DreamDMDweaver
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    10
    ok lets say they do recalibrate the scores on October or September favoring higher scores, then the only "just" and logical compensation would be, is to recalibrate the scores of those who took the new exam pattern prior to the recalibration
     
  36. jonnytight

    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Resident [Any Field]
    i will call the ADA this week and see what they tell me regarding this issue....

    i along with DREDAY and all you other docs are concerned.... if ADA doesnt do anything I would like to see some legal action... that would cause some eyes/ears to open at ADA and hopefully some action

    i will let you guys know what i find out....
     
  37. sharabi23

    2+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2007
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
  38. patata

    patata Its been some time here !
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    2
    Status:
    Dentist
    well i did spoke to Dr. Tsai he was not so great about explaining the things and repeated the same stuff that the new score stands same as the old one etc etc. but here it is the direct number to Dr. Tsai 312-440-2684
     
  39. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    When did you speak to him?
     
  40. drock

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2007
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    your quick to sue/paranoid types just need to buckle down, study and relax. It's a different exam and it will take a little time before the ADA knows, programs know and you know the true difference b/w the old and new format. It's obvious on your scoring report if you took the old format. Don't forget you all take the same exam this summer and will get compared together. If someone is on the interview trail in 1 1/2 years from now with the old scores, everyone by then will know the difference. I'm no lawyer, but I don't think you can sue for being paranoid. No injustice has been done to you, YET. I agree with that previous comment. If you let this consume you, then it won't matter old or new, you will suck it up and try something new. BLAME YOURSELF.
     
  41. dentheartthrob

    dentheartthrob DreamDMDweaver
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    10
    Hey guys I've just received a letter comming from ADA stating that there will be no recalibration of the scores? Either this guy doesnt now yet or some people are really mis-informed. Here's the letter:


    There is no plan to recalibrate the scoring of the Part 1 examination. If you have any further questions please call us at 1-800-232-1694.

    Thank you,

    Nick Hussong
    Client Support Services Representative
    Phone: 312-440-2691
    Fax: 312-587-4105
    American Dental Association
    211 E. Chicago Ave. Suite 600
    Chicago, IL 60611



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sent: Monday, May 28, 2007 7:16 PM
    To: education
    Subject: Standardization of new NBDE 1 format

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    To Whom It May Concern;

    I would like to inquire as to how the recalibration of the present scoring system, for part 1, slated on the end of September or early October will affect those who took the exams prior to those months? Hoping for your prompt response, I thank you in advance.

    Respectfully,
    Dino
     
  42. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Hey guys I spoke with Dr. Tsai. So I learned some new things that were not clear before. Dr. Tsai said that a score of a 90 in the new exam is equivalent to a 90 in the old exam. One problem. The way the exam and the statistics on the exam was designed is that one score absolutely cannot be used to be compared to another score. In other words, if I score a 90 on an exam it absolutely does not mean that I know more than a person who scores a 83. The only thing the test was designed to do is to tell you if you know the material or not. That becomes an issue when you are applying to specialty, and he said that comparing 2 scores (such as occurs when applying to specialty) is not accurate because the exam was not designed as such. He also said he has tried to educate faculty about this, but thats the best they can do.
     
  43. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Dr. Tsai also said the recalibration that occurs in september/october is for internal purposes only and will most likely not affect the scores.
     
  44. dentheartthrob

    dentheartthrob DreamDMDweaver
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    10

    But will the new scores be compared to the scores on the previous format?
     
  45. Fox3

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    I think the ADA is running an experiment RIGHT NOW. There are 2 versions of the exam being given now. One easy control exam and one hard "experimental" exam. A NBDE when given before was a fair equalizer. In its current state, it's a meaningless piece of trash that offers no insight into the merits of any one particular student.

    No messing around, I seriously think this is what's going on. The reports of new exam takers is a dichotomy: some say its just like the old one and some say its a screwy, oddball exam that's hard to study for.

    1) Exam version A--it's pretty straightforward and fair with lots of repeats. Lots of regurgitation of facts. The curve is very small 5-7 points.

    2) Exam Version B--it's harder and more ambiguous. No repeats. Odd comparisons and less memorize and repeat style questions. The curve is much larger (15-20pts). The questions are weighted for easy, medium, and hard with more points for answering hard questions.

    I believe that in October, the "internal calibration" is the comparison of the experimental exam to the control.
     
  46. mg777

    mg777 Tooth Mechanic
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student

    where did u get this info from?
     
  47. dentheartthrob

    dentheartthrob DreamDMDweaver
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2005
    Messages:
    417
    Likes Received:
    10
  48. DBB

    DBB Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    wow. i absolutely believe that you folks are telling the truth, but i just cannot believe what a mess this exam has become. how are you going to write an exam knowing FULL WELL that its unwritten purpose is to place students into specialty programs and have the results not be comparable to each other. that is just beyond me. and the fact that the recalibration is only for internal purposes...hmm. strange. at this point, im not sure what can even be said?
     
  49. aphistis

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2003
    Messages:
    8,392
    Likes Received:
    29
    Status:
    Attending Physician, Dentist
    I'm calling BS on this one. :)
     
  50. DREDAY

    DREDAY Senior Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    Messages:
    619
    Likes Received:
    14
    Thats something you need to ask the faculty that will review your application when you apply to specialty.
     
  51. mg777

    mg777 Tooth Mechanic
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    0
    Status:
    Dental Student
    What can we gather from this mess? Dont specialize and find a hobby instead... Youre still #1 in my book:laugh:
     

Share This Page