NDBE are P/F should we be going to ranked schools now??

[Plopper]

So i honestly have no clue if i want to specialize, but i would like to keep the option. with the boards going pass/fail in '11, would attending a ranked school be a better idea? I am aware that most p/f schools have some type of rank (high pass, or pass with honors), but is it a better/safer bet to go to a school with grades/percentile?

Thanks

p.s. is it a better idea to attend a school in a region of the country you want to practice or to attend xx school and then move to said region?

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[glk2101]

i would think that if you went to columbia, ucla, or harvard then you would be even in a better situation than before...

 

[Mia305]

Whether or not you go to a ranked school shouldn't really matter. The boards going P/F just means that you need to build up the other areas of your application.

On a side note, I have been hearing that instead of 2010, they are changing the pass/fail to 2011. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[dentstd]

Grades in school are very clumped, meaning that the difference between 5th ranked and 6th ranked is close to nothing. In this range, the difference can be a few good guesses on an exam, or a good/bad exam day. In a ranked school, you have little margin of error, and competition is severely high. You can never predict how you'll do in dental school (even if you did well in undergrad), because you don't know how well you can handle an increased workload and a high stress environment. Take all this into consideration when choosing your school.

 

[sajjy]

i would think that if you went to columbia, ucla, or harvard then you would be even in a better situation than before...

and UConn as well for P/F....i think Stony Brook is P/F too...not sure abt SB tho

 

[TheWiredNerv]

Stony gives you A,B,C and F for most classes. You don't get a GPA though. It is essentially Fail, Pass, Pass with Honors, Pass with High Honors.

Just go to the school you feel you will fit in best.

 

[Aceofspades]

Stony gives you A,B,C and F for most classes. You don't get a GPA though. It is essentially Fail, Pass, Pass with Honors, Pass with High Honors.

Just go to the school you feel you will fit in best.

If they give you grades, how can it be P/F. They may not calculate the GPA, but anyone could just use A = 4.0, B = 3.0, C = 2.0 F = 0.0 and get your GPA. It seems like it isn't P/F at all.

 

[Plopper]

Grades in school are very clumped, meaning that the difference between 5th ranked and 6th ranked is close to nothing. In this range, the difference can be a few good guesses on an exam, or a good/bad exam day. In a ranked school, you have little margin of error, and competition is severely high. You can never predict how you'll do in dental school (even if you did well in undergrad), because you don't know how well you can handle an increased workload and a high stress environment. Take all this into consideration when choosing your school.

exactly, well put, that is what i am thinking about. I am weighing P/F and graded. I would assume that P/F is less competitive, but then if i ever choose to become a specialist, then i would have School: Pass and NBDE: Pass. How does a specialty program rank me against someone with a 3.8 gpa in d-school? So unless a new exam is written, it places p/f schools at a disadvantage.

Just wondering, where are you going to dental school?

Also, does it make more sense to attend a school in an area you want to practice in, or to move there afterwards?

 

[armorshell]

Grades in school are very clumped, meaning that the difference between 5th ranked and 6th ranked is close to nothing. In this range, the difference can be a few good guesses on an exam, or a good/bad exam day. In a ranked school, you have little margin of error, and competition is severely high. You can never predict how you'll do in dental school (even if you did well in undergrad), because you don't know how well you can handle an increased workload and a high stress environment. Take all this into consideration when choosing your school.

Being at a graded school, I can tell you a few guesses on an exam will only make a difference for the first few quarters. By the time you've made it to 2nd/3rd year and have 100s of credits accumulated, it's all about who's put in the leg work. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

It is true though that the GPA difference between top students is tight (probably around .05 between the top 5 here) but at the level of credits we've taken, .05 is the difference of getting a B vs. and A in 6 credits worth of classes. Not to mention that even if you do end up as #5/140 vs. #1/140, it probably won't make a huge difference to the specialty program you're looking at.

Do you even go to a ranked school?

 

[glk2101]

exactly, well put, that is what i am thinking about. I am weighing P/F and graded. I would assume that P/F is less competitive, but then if i ever choose to become a specialist, then i would have School: Pass and NBDE: Pass. How does a specialty program rank me against someone with a 3.8 gpa in d-school? So unless a new exam is written, it places p/f schools at a disadvantage.

Just wondering, where are you going to dental school?

Also, does it make more sense to attend a school in an area you want to practice in, or to move there afterwards?

yea but what if you can get into harvard but are in the bottom third of the class..then you would still pass and have an advantage over almost anyone in the country no?

 

[armorshell]

yea but what if you can get into harvard but are in the bottom third of the class..then you would still pass and have an advantage over almost anyone in the country no?

For that to be true you have to assume a P from Harvard is better than a #1 from every other ranked school in the country, which is a pretty hefty assumption to make.

 

[Aceofspades]

For that to be true you have to assume a P from Harvard is better than a #1 from every other ranked school in the country, which is a pretty hefty assumption to make.

What about a P from Harvard vs #10 or top 10-15% from school X?

 

[armorshell]

What about a P from Harvard vs #10 or top 10-15% from school X?

A P from Harvard tells you how well someone did in undergrad, and a top 10% from a ranked dental school tells you how well they did in dental school.

You tell me which one you would prefer if you were a residency director.

 

[PSU SHC 414]

This is a VERY useful thread for current predents. Current DS students, please keep the responses coming!!


Will schools that are traditionally H/P/F (like Columbia) be forced to change to a graded system? Otherwise, like someone else said, how are specialty programs going to distinguish between two applicants who, for the sake of argument, have identical applications (research, extracurriculars, and the "same" NBDE-I score of "P") but one comes from a school with a grading system (and is in the top 10% of their class) and the other comes from a reputable school (like Columbia) with a H/P/F system (and has a fairly even mix of "H" and "P" grades).

Which applicant would have the advantage here when it comes to matching to specialty programs?

 

[armorshell]

Which applicant would have the advantage here when it comes to matching to specialty programs?

No one can pretend to know that. Everyone has their own opinion, and both sides of the debate have valid evidence. There are probably an equal number of program directors on either side as well.

 

[visbimmer79]

This is a VERY useful thread for current predents. Current DS students, please keep the responses coming!!


Will schools that are traditionally H/P/F (like Columbia) be forced to change to a graded system? Otherwise, like someone else said, how are specialty programs going to distinguish between two applicants who, for the sake of argument, have identical applications (research, extracurriculars, and the "same" NBDE-I score of "P") but one comes from a school with a grading system (and is in the top 10% of their class) and the other comes from a reputable school (like Columbia) with a H/P/F system (and has a fairly even mix of "H" and "P" grades).

Which applicant would have the advantage here when it comes to matching to specialty programs?

I hope someone can post grading systems of all D-schools together.
(If there was a thread about this, plz direct me to that site!!)

 

[glk2101]

A P from Harvard tells you how well someone did in undergrad, and a top 10% from a ranked dental school tells you how well they did in dental school.

You tell me which one you would prefer if you were a residency director.

regardless of that harvard only has 35 students, and im pretty sure theyre board scores are among the highest of anyone regardless of the pass fail system

im not saying they would be better than the number 1 from any other school, but certainly better than alot of candidates

 

[DRHOYA]

A P from Harvard tells you how well someone did in undergrad, and a top 10% from a ranked dental school tells you how well they did in dental school.

You tell me which one you would prefer if you were a residency director.

I agree. I thought there was a thread on here last week that discussed ranked schools? I thought there was no ranking system for dental schools?

 

[somethinpositiv]

I agree. I thought there was a thread on here last week that discussed ranked schools? I thought there was no ranking system for dental schools?

I think the OP meant ranked as in class rank.

 

[Plopper]

I think the OP meant ranked as in class rank.

well i'm not the op of that thread, but in this thread i was wondering whether it is a good idea to risk my future and go to a p/f school (assuming i get into one) or to play it safe and go to a graded school. This isn't important if you want to be a GP, but if you want to/ or want the option of specializing, then the P/F or Graded school delimma becomes important.

With all of the confusion with the NDBE P/F, the REAL question is:

Does attending a P/F school place you at a disadvantage compared to students at a graded/ranked school for admisssion to a specialy program? (Assuming equal LOR, etc...)

either way i think most predents will work hard in d-school, but i feel that in a P/F school, students would more likely help each other and not be of the mentality that if they don't help you they'll do better. (less competition& more study groups)

I feel (and this is based on only my gut feeling) that a P/F school, would be less competitive between students, and would foster a great sense of togetherness, i.e. everyone helps eachother more.
A graded school, it would seem, would be a much more stressful time, because you need to make sure you are getting A's in every class along with all of the other stuff you need to do. Plus, i would assume, if it's anything like college, that there are those gunners, who don't help others, and will literally tell you wrong answers to submarine you.

So in the end, which do you choose? Safe bet, or risk it by going to P/F? I'm not sure.

 

[armorshell]

regardless of that harvard only has 35 students, and im pretty sure theyre board scores are among the highest of anyone regardless of the pass fail system

im not saying they would be better than the number 1 from any other school, but certainly better than alot of candidates

What do board scores have to do with any of this? Assuming you're looking at class rank or P/F alone, the fact that someone passed all their classes tells you nothing.

You're suggesting that, no matter one, someone who gets straight C's at Harvard is better than everyone else in the country.

 

[dentstd]

The specialty programs themselves don't know what they're going to use to distinguish students. Everything's guessing now on our end and on theirs. If you decide to go to a ranked school, you can't mess up. You are practically obligated to be at the top of your class or your dreams'll slowly dissipate. That said, having a 3.9/22 doens't mean you'll be at the top of the class. Everyone messes up.

 

[glk2101]

What do board scores have to do with any of this? Assuming you're looking at class rank or P/F alone, the fact that someone passed all their classes tells you nothing.

You're suggesting that, no matter one, someone who gets straight C's at Harvard is better than everyone else in the country.

harvard is pass fail so you dont get C's? so if you are in the bottom third of the class there that wouldn't matter. does harvard not produce a lot of people doing residency already? if i want to do a residency will i be at a disadvantage if i get into harvard?

 

[Mia305]

harvard is pass fail so you dont get C's? so if you are in the bottom third of the class there that wouldn't matter. does harvard not produce a lot of people doing residency already? if i want to do a residency will i be at a disadvantage if i get into harvard?

You wouldn't even know if you are in the bottom third since it is P/F and there is no rank whatsoever. Yes- a lot of people from Harvard go into residency, so going there would not put you at a disadvantage. There is still plenty of competition from other students at every other dental school in the country, other than the other 34 in your class.

 

[armorshell]

harvard is pass fail so you dont get C's? so if you are in the bottom third of the class there that wouldn't matter. does harvard not produce a lot of people doing residency already? if i want to do a residency will i be at a disadvantage if i get into harvard?

You can still get a C, it just doesn't show up on your report card, and regardless of the school's position on grade reporting there is a bottom third of the class.

 

[Mia305]

You can still get a C, it just doesn't show up anymore, and regardless of the school's position on grade reporting there is a bottom third of the class.

Individual tests get graded with a typical number or letter grade, but as long as you end the class with the necessary amount of points, you are given a P. While there may technically be a bottom third of the class, no residency program would ever know as no GPA (since there is none) or class rank is reported to them.

 

[glk2101]

Individual tests get graded with a typical number or letter grade, but as long as you end the class with the necessary amount of points, you are given a P. While there may technically be a bottom third of the class, no residency program would ever know as no GPA (since there is none) or class rank is reported to them.

thats why i was thinking if you could get into harvard and pass then it would be a lot less stressful than trying to finish at the top at another school..and you wouldn't be at any disadvantage in getting a residency i guess?

 

[Mia305]

thats why i was thinking if you could get into harvard and pass then it would be a lot less stressful than trying to finish at the top at another school..and you wouldn't be at any disadvantage in getting a residency i guess?

I would agree that it is less stressful. But I don't think any disadvantage is what you have to worry about. Lets say 10 out of 35- including you- decide to apply for oral surgery. Don't you think you should be more concerned with all the other applicants from the other 50something schools, rather than just the 9 others from yours? It shouldn't matter if there is only 1 person applying for a specific residency, or all 35 students. All that matters is your individual application, so just focus on that instead of everyone elses.

 

[armorshell]

Individual tests get graded with a typical number or letter grade, but as long as you end the class with the necessary amount of points, you are given a P. While there may technically be a bottom third of the class, no residency program would ever know as no GPA (since there is none) or class rank is reported to them.

Thanks for proving my point. You're handing a residency director this information: "Passed all dental school classes", and "Passed boards."

That could mean any number of things, but none of them are known. If you're at a ranked school, you can at least show them that you've managed a dental curriculum at a very high level of competency indicated by a high rank.

Also remember, despite what STD says, luck isn't going to keep you from being at the top of the ranks. It may move you around a bit, but #3 probably isn't really that different from #6 in the eyes of a residency director

 

[Mia305]

Thanks for proving my point. You're handing a residency director this information: "Passed all dental school classes", and "Passed boards."

That could mean any number of things, but none of them are known. If you're at a ranked school, you can at least show them that you've managed a dental curriculum at a very high level of competency indicated by a high rank.

Also remember, despite what STD says, luck isn't going to keep you from being at the top of the ranks. It may move you around a bit, but #3 probably isn't really that different from #6 in the eyes of a residency director

Well Harvard consistently has a high number of students going into specialty every year, and I'm going to assume that it is not just luck. They must be doing something right.

 

[armorshell]

Well Harvard consistently has a high number of students going into specialty every year, and I'm going to assume that it is not just luck. They must be doing something right.

They are doing something right, scoring incredibly high on boards.

Something that anyone applying to dental school right now isn't going to have as an option.

 

[TheWiredNerv]

I'm glad boards are P/F.

 

[AggieDDS]

They are doing something right, scoring incredibly high on boards.

Something that anyone applying to dental school right now isn't going to have as an option.

Maybe they might take precedent and past avg. board scores into account in the selection process, and hence "school prestige."

Pure speculation of course.

 

[Plopper]

i disagree about the prestige of the school, i really can't see that being an incredibly important factor for residency directors, but i can see how harvard would have high board scores yielding high level of specialization.

so it seems so far, that no one knows if another exam will be written for specialization or what will happen. So it's a crap shot of whether to go to a P/F or graded, at this time if you go to a P/F school and nothing is done then you may well be banking your future as a specialist

 

[glk2101]

i disagree about the prestige of the school, i really can't see that being an incredibly important factor for residency directors, but i can see how harvard would have high board scores yielding high level of specialization.

so it seems so far, that no one knows if another exam will be written for specialization or what will happen. So it's a crap shot of whether to go to a P/F or graded, at this time if you go to a P/F school and nothing is done then you may well be banking your future as a specialist

extracurriculars and research would become more impt..you think there is going to be a drop in ppl from columbia or harvard who go into residency? i dont think so

 

[glk2101]

They are doing something right, scoring incredibly high on boards.

Something that anyone applying to dental school right now isn't going to have as an option.

so youre saying the number of people from harvard going into residency will decrease due to the p/f on the boards?

 

[Shunwei]

so youre saying the number of people from harvard going into residency will decrease due to the p/f on the boards?

i think what Armorshell is trying to say is that for schools with traditionally higher board schools, its students now will be placed at a comparative disadvantage compared to what they had before. Whereas before a board score can immediately given an impression of the academic quality of a student, now it can't. So students now have to focus on other stuff, which is subjectively easier to access than getting that magical board score.

The more I think about it, the more I think turning Boards into P/F is a bad move. With more and more schools going to P/F, there is gotta be some sort of objective marker to measure a student's scholastic ability. Yes, EC's are important, but I still like to see a balanced dossier with activities and a good academic repertoire.

 

[ssik]

The more I think about it, the more I think turning Boards into P/F is a bad move. With more and more schools going to P/F, there is gotta be some sort of objective marker to measure a student's scholastic ability. Yes, EC's are important, but I still like to see a balanced dossier with activities and a good academic repertoire.

I totally agree with you. It appears like the entire system is becoming too subjective. On a side note, I read a news article that said a number of colleges were removing the SAT from their requirements list. Although EC's are important, how can a person be selected entry to an academic institution without a test of competence. Aside from natural intelligence, big exams like the national boards, SATs, DATs, etc. test people's commitment to study and mastery of material. Scoring high of these exams shows a lot about a person. Of course the counter argument is that some people aren't good test takers and that a test doesn't define a person completely. But again, I think standardized exams are an excellent way of testing competence, commitment to work and study, mastery of material, and critical thinking. Are they gonna start picking people on good looks and connections alone (as though they don't already do that sometimes)?