Necessity of Forensics Fellowship

[starri]

So, I was a late-in-life doctor, and by the time I finish my trip through GME, I'm going to be in my mid-40s. I accidentally got some exposure to forensics (with training wheels) early on by writing court evaluations, I enjoyed doing it and got compliments from the judges. So, I've been toying with the idea of doing a fellowship.

I don't anticipate having my professional life being primarily forensics, and plan instead to spend weekends writing custody evals or similar to make some extra scratch. I have a friend, long out of residency, who's been advising me on side hustles, and he's told me that if that's my goal, foregoing another year of attending salary isn't actually necessary.

Can our forensics folks weigh in? I do plan for the bulk of my practice to be outpatient and probably transition eventual to cash-only therapy once I build up enough of a book of business.

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[vistaril]

So, I was a late-in-life doctor, and by the time I finish my trip through GME, I'm going to be in my mid-40s. I accidentally got some exposure to forensics (with training wheels) early on by writing court evaluations, I enjoyed doing it and got compliments from the judges. So, I've been toying with the idea of doing a fellowship.

I don't anticipate having my professional life being primarily forensics, and plan instead to spend weekends writing custody evals or similar to make some extra scratch. I have a friend, long out of residency, who's been advising me on side hustles, and he's told me that if that's my goal, foregoing another year of attending salary isn't actually necessary.

Can our forensics folks weigh in? I do plan for the bulk of my practice to be outpatient and probably transition eventual to cash-only therapy once I build up enough of a book of business.

Not a forensics person, but most of the contracts are going to go to people that they are familar with. Regardless of whether they have a forensics fellowship or not.

If some dude has been doing these evals for the last ten years and they are happy with him and some new guy shows up and says "I have a forensics fellowship. He doesn't. Hire me for these now" he will be laughed out of town.....

 

[starri]

If that's the case, wouldn't the argument be for networking if nothing else?

 

[vistaril]

If that's the case, wouldn't the argument be for networking if nothing else?

of course networking, knowing people, etc is incredibly important and really the most important thing.

the problem is a forensics fellowship is unlikely to help you in a meaningful way there. Sure you will meet a lot of psychs who do forsensics....at your program and conferences and whatnot. The problem is they aren't who is going to give you the contracts/work for the most part.

I doubt a forensics fellowship would hurt. My point is don't expect it to neccessarily displace people who don't have one who already have the contracts/work now.

 

[psyguru]

If I had to do it again, I would have done a forensic fellowship as I enjoy the work. It is not essential to do a forensic fellowship. In fact, I run into other specialists who do far more expert witness work than many forensic graduates. The only three fellowships that are "forensics" are forensic psych, forensic pathology, and forensic dentistry. Sometimes I even throw in occupation medicine as they do fitness for duty, etc. However, you will find expert witnesses in any field.

In many states to do criminal work forensics is essential There may be other types of cases where I would recommend an attorney obtain a forensic psychiatrist. However, there are many bread and butter disability/ occupational IME type cases (perhaps get training and get an ABIME with expertise in the AMA disability guidelines). Also, you could do med mal and PI. One option is to develop some kind of niche such as addictions or TBI. I have seen some addiction experts do just big tobacco cases (for one side...I will pass). Geriatric psychiatrists do will contests. With my background in forensics (and BIM), I feel comfortable doing many different types of cases. One way to increase the volume of cases is with good marketing.

 

[gamesafoot]

There are a lot of people out there who do forensic work - and a lot of people who do it quite badly. The advantage of a fellowship is to give you rigorous feedback and education for how to do forensic work well. There are certain types of people who are capable of the active, honest learning needed to teach themselves how to do forensic work well - these people don't need fellowships. But there are a lot of people who aren't. And a lot of these people lack the insight to know what they are doing well and what they aren't.

 

[NickNaylor]

I'm not forensics-trained but have done expert witness work on a few civil cases. Forensics training definitely is not necessary, though you may need to do more or less self-directed learning depending on the type of work that you end up doing and what is being asked of you by an attorney. My understanding is that formal forensics training is really only necessary for "high stakes" cases, criminal or civil.

It's a very interesting (and different) type of work that's not for everybody. I've had to do depositions that are several hours long, which can be grueling depending on your personal make-up. Personally, I found it kind of fun. But it's certainly not for everyone... especially if you find the idea of being in an a very adversarial setting unpleasant.

 

[clausewitz2]

I was raised by lawyers, worked as a legal assistant for a while, and later pursued an abortive non-medical academic career in a field that was hugely influenced by its modern founders un-ending thirst for intellectual combat. Persuasive and argumentative rhetoric closely grounded in demonstrable facts integrated into the framework of law is quite interesting to me. People also tell me I'm combative (heaven forfend!). I don't have a forensics fellowship and i am no mind of attorney but the legal mindset is one i can occupy with some facility. I also find reading most statutes and legal decisions stimulating as long as they have some application to something I care about.

the forensic stuff I have done so far has been quite interesting for the most part. There has also been so very dull but very straightforward stuff, like very routine peer file review (e.g. is it medically necessary for this depressed person who has been on Cymbalta for a decade to receive another three months of Cymbalta). The full stuff at least has been super easy. The interesting stuff has been complicated in a way that really tickles the analytical aspect of my brain.

Experience so far has been consistent with up thread - if you are good at reading independently and actively seeking out what you need to know to correct knowledge deficits it seems you would be well-equipped for most circumstances.

 

[psyguru]

As I am doing more forensic work, I am glad I did the fellowship. If you are planning on earning more than 25% of your income from doing forensic work, it is worth considering vs doing 1-2 cases a year.

Occasionally the opposing expert may be a non-forensic neuropsychologist in a TBI case. Although the neuropsychologist has an advantage with neuropsych testing, I can use the skills learned from my fellowship to offer additional insight.

I feel it would take many years of self-teaching to get the same level of skill you would from a 1-year fellowship. After having about 20 forensic reports redlined by a Case Western / Resnik grad, I finally felt I "got it" (after about 2-3 months). I place a high value on having 50 reports scrutinized over a 6 month period. Even if you had a mentor, it would not be the same to have 50 reports scrutinized/ redlined over a 10 year period.