Neurosurgery chances

[Jenore]

Hey guys, I’ve hung around SDN for a while now and finally decided to make an account and post a thread... I was just wondering how my chances looked at matching into neurosurgery and what “tier” of programs I’d be competitive for:
School with a home program ranked about 65
Step 1:246
Step 2: 250
Grades: are mostly pass and high pass with a couple honors
Research: 5 pubs(one clinical science paper)
Lors: pretty decent

Thanks again for the help, I’m hoping to engage with past and present applicants

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[chord]

You’re a pretty average applicant stat wise, which means you’ll likely get a good deal of interview invites.

Crush your sub-Is (preferably at least 2 at well known programs) and get strong letters. I’m curious how you know your letters at this point because most people, even those with an abbreviated preclinical curriculum, do their aways in June/July/August (May at absolute earliest) and you need to do at least two of them, which means your away letters will account for at least half your letters.

Where are you doing your sub-Is?

Ultimately, there are only about 120 programs. Apply to 60-70 of them, don’t be weird, and rank every place you interview at, and you’ll likely match. Look at charting outcomes - people in your score range do very well.

 

[mrbreakfast]

Lors: pretty decent

As mentioned above, you will likely want a letter from each away rotation, so this is your biggest remaining question mark - I'm assuming you've done a max of one away so far, if that. Statistically you are an average applicant, so strong letters in a smaller field like NS will only help you.

 

[7331poas]

You’re a pretty average applicant stat wise, which means you’ll likely get a good deal of interview invites.

Crush your sub-Is (preferably at least 2 at well known programs) and get strong letters. I’m curious how you know your letters at this point because most people, even those with an abbreviated preclinical curriculum, do their aways in June/July/August (May at absolute earliest) and you need to do at least two of them, which means your away letters will account for at least half your letters.

Where are you doing your sub-Is?

Ultimately, there are only about 120 programs. Apply to 60-70 of them, don’t be weird, and rank every place you interview at, and you’ll likely match. Look at charting outcomes - people in your score range do very well.

How about if a student has no home program? How does that affect an applicant?

 

[chord]

How about if a student has no home program? How does that affect an applicant?

It is a less ideal situation because you have no home program to establish research contacts or mentorship, no home program to advocate for you, and no home program to match at (for most applicants, this is statistically the most likely match).

You can attempt to overcome this by making outside research contacts (eg doing a research year at another institution) and doing sub-Is.

 

[7331poas]

It is a less ideal situation because you have no home program to establish research contacts or mentorship, no home program to advocate for you, and no home program to match at (for most applicants, this is statistically the most likely match).

You can attempt to overcome this by making outside research contacts (eg doing a research year at another institution) and doing sub-Is.

If a student theoretically were able to match with a neighboring system and get research, how much does losing an "advocate" hurt an applicant?

I assume having advocates for individuals is important for a neurosurgery match. Would not having a mentor who can make phone calls harm an applicant who would otherwise be competitive?

Thanks, I am currently at a stage where I need to decide if I want to continue pursuing neurosurgery. I definitely want to be in the field, but I am concerned that even with a good application, I may not be able to match since I am at a low ranked program without a home nsg residency.

 

[ed*26]

Who wrote your letters of rec? Those are your advocates. If you have/had good experiences on your sub-Is then you should absolutely have an honest conversation with any attendings that you thought you worked well with about your concern with not having a home program -- they can counsel you on how and whether that will affect you. Good letters of rec may suffice, and if you need a personal word then they should offer if they liked you. You're at a bit of a disadvantage but it's certainly not lethal. Similarly if you have a mentor at your home institution (perhaps in general surgery or another subspecialty) they should be able to advocate at least for your dedication, enthusiasm, and potential to be a good surgeon.

I'd be more worried if you can't think of a single nsg attending that you jivved with, or they're being evasive about helping you out or your chances.

 

[7331poas]

Who wrote your letters of rec? Those are your advocates. If you have/had good experiences on your sub-Is then you should absolutely have an honest conversation with any attendings that you thought you worked well with about your concern with not having a home program -- they can counsel you on how and whether that will affect you. Good letters of rec may suffice, and if you need a personal word then they should offer if they liked you. You're at a bit of a disadvantage but it's certainly not lethal. Similarly if you have a mentor at your home institution (perhaps in general surgery or another subspecialty) they should be able to advocate at least for your dedication, enthusiasm, and potential to be a good surgeon.

I'd be more worried if you can't think of a single nsg attending that you jivved with, or they're being evasive about helping you out or your chances.

We have a large nsg group that staffs our hospital and its not like I am without mentors. The problem is that we have no set up our nsg program yet (still about 4 years out).

Does it matter at all if some of my letter writers are neurosurgeons who are not in the GME game?

 

[ed*26]

If your mentors are known to others in the field as being good neurosurgeons (think if they're affiliated with a major academic institution, go to conferences at least annually, ever consult with surgeons at other institutions, etc) then that's all you need from a letter writer. The issue with not having a home program is that (1) you usually have a higher likelihood of being ranked to match in your home program, and (2) some students without a home program have little/no access to that specialty to try it out, develop mentoring relationships, pursue research, and generally show interest over time. #1 would hurt if you're less competitive, but people match at other institutions all the time.