New DO School for NJ

[medhacker]

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I haven't seen much more than idle speculation on this thread regarding the supposed disastrous consequences of more DO school openings. Is there any hard data or upcoming changes in the medico-legal system which should make us take all of this negative speculation seriously? 'Cause from where I stand, it seems that we're going to need a lot more dedicated primary care to deal with our growing geriatric population, and those doctors have to come from somewhere.



cheers

No!

Welcome to SDN

 

[Zweihander]

No!

Welcome to SDN

 

[Gavanshir]

The physician density in NJ is largely due to the high number of IMGs in the area.

 

[mshheaddoc]

the time I applied to Touro NV (in 2004) they had the best admissions statistics (MCAT and GPA) out of all the osteopathic medical schools (possibly even for the last four years at that time if I remember correctly). Touro NV has exceeded my high expectations and is WELL on its way to be an excellent, if not PREMIER osteopathic medical school in the near future.

😕 Touro isn't better than any other especially statistically as there are a handful of schools off the top of my head that have higher stats. Stats are just numbers and as well all know don't matter. I realize you were stating your opinion in which I don't agree that Touro NV will be a fine institution, but don't make blanket statements on things to come. It all depends on administration, faculty, etc.

Oh and just to note, TCOM, OSU-COM, and DMU have comparable stats just with a quick glance.

I think there needs to be more med schools and I'm glad that certain organizations are working to expand (kcom/touro/pcom) but to say you might get the same clinical experiences is a little bold at this point as most of these programs are relatively new. Additionally, avg stats for most of the osteopathic schools are relatively the same barring a few schools.

And to be clear, I'm not speculating on disaster in NJ for the opening of a new MD school. I do not see anything wrong in the current UMDNJ umbrella. I am saying that NJ already has 3 medical schools with 5 in philadelphia and god knows how many in NY. Do we need another one? No. Does maybe the Northwest US? Yes.

New medical schools are good since there is an obvious supply of PRIMARY CARE physicians. With growing population we need more doctors and if schools can not expand their facilities then the need for new medical schools is there.

 

[BMW19]

Touro is opening an MD school? That doesn't make much sense....

BMW-

Its not a DO school, its a MD school.

 

[DarkWingDuck]

They may not be a Harvard or WashU, but as I remember (my numbers may be A LITTLE bit off, but I don't have the time or desire to double check them) Touro Mare Island opened up in 95,96, or 97, by the time I applied to Touro NV (in 2004) they had the best admissions statistics (MCAT and GPA) out of all the osteopathic medical schools (possibly even for the last four years at that time if I remember correctly). Touro NV has exceeded my high expectations and is WELL on its way to be an excellent, if not PREMIER osteopathic medical school in the near future.

Now, for all of you who are assuming Touro is a money making machine... HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU KNOW THEIR MOTIVATIONS!?!? Because a lot of other people are assuming the same thing???????? If you read this thread, could they not have plenty of other motivations to expand!?!? I go to Touro NV, and I plan on actually being proactive and going straight to the top with all of these questions and concerns as soon as I get the time. I will be happy to post what I find out, but until we have a credible foot to stand on, let's all try to keep an open-mind instead of tarnishing Touro's reputation through our assumptions.

I think Touro-MI's admission standards had less to do with administration, and more to do with competitive CA applicants. Namely, a lot of applicants who could not get into the state university system. UC what?

 

[docbill]

There are two threads about this. One in Osteo and one in pre-osteo.. you guys should pick one and start attacking Touro in that one.

This could be a good move for Touro DO schools. It may open up rotation sites at that campus (east coast). In worst case senario, all Touro schools can get converted.

 

[DrBowtie]

I think Touro-MI's admission standards had less to do with administration, and more to do with competitive CA applicants. Namely, a lot of applicants who could not get into the state university system. UC what?

Thats what I think as well.

 

[cardiotonic]

mshheaddoc, when i was referring to statistics, I was talking about Mare Island not NV.

Brett and the other dude, you may have a point that California has a lot of quality applicants (makes sense based on numbers alone), but I would also have to say that both Touro NV and MI have two of the best admissions directors in the country. They are both AMAZING people in my humble opinion.

 

[cee]

Aren't they going for Harlem, or that didn't work out?

dont ever use Touro and the "H" word in the same sentence ever again.. the idea is completely absurd

 

[mshheaddoc]

mshheaddoc, when i was referring to statistics, I was talking about Mare Island not NV.

Brett and the other dude, you may have a point that California has a lot of quality applicants (makes sense based on numbers alone), but I would also have to say that both Touro NV and MI have two of the best admissions directors in the country. They are both AMAZING people in my humble opinion.

And I was comparing TOURO-MI's stats ... NV doesn't have but one year available.

 

[Gavanshir]

EDIT: Somebody needs a geography lesson.

 

[Lindyhopper]

I think that the expansion of learning & educational opportunity, is generally an overriding imperative.
But the fact that disgraced former Senator & long time NJ super sleave ball Bob Torricelli is flacking for Tuoro's NJ MD school is a serious red flag.

A sad downside of expansion is that there probably will be more debt ridden Drop/Flunk outs.

I still wonder if an expansion of MD programs & enrollment, (instead of an expansion of DO slots) may increase the pool of American trained physicians with a less drastic dilution of the applicant pool. There should be fewer resultant debt ridden Drop/Flunk outs.

It seems that approx. 17,000 MD slots are filled by applicants with a 30.5 mean MCAT & other excellent credentials. THe newer DO schools have averages of 23ish. One has to go through a pretty thick part of the Mcat bell curve to fill relatively few seats.

 

[FrogE7]

A sad downside of expansion is that there probably will be more debt ridden Drop/Flunk outs.

Where are you getting these dropouts? A Touro-NV student informed me that the Class of 2008 had 2 drop outs their first year. NYMC's Class of 2007, an MD school, had around 7 people drop out their first year.

It seems that approx. 17,000 MD slots are filled by applicants with a 30.5 mean MCAT & other excellent credentials. THe newer DO schools have averages of 23ish. One has to go through a pretty thick part of the Mcat bell curve to fill relatively few seats.

Steps are a different ball game from the MCATs: the former being more knowlege based and the latter being how-to-take-a-test. Despite a correlation between the two, I know of too many instances of high mcats and mediocre to low board scores, and vice versa. It is time that people start to realize that the MCAT is not the final determination of a successful doctor.

All of the students at ANY school will take the Steps and must pass them to qualify for these residencies. So this "low credentials" statement is not a strong enough arguement.

 

[willow18]

dont ever use Touro and the "H" word in the same sentence ever again.. the idea is completely absurd

I believe they've had an undergrad campus in Harlem for some time now.

 

[alex2300]

I don't know why some of you are feeling so threatened. Touro seems to be going through all the appropriate channels in setting up this new school. What is the big deal?

 

[Lindyhopper]

Where are you getting these dropouts? A Touro-NV student informed me that the Class of 2008 had 2 drop outs . . .

That is great to hear. I admit I was just speculating. It was largely based on one women's SDN posts. She went for being so optimistic to being so bitter in about a year and a half. It just seems so sad that it may have skewed my perspective.

RE the MCAT scores I really didn't mean to overstate it's predictive value. But I really don't buy the "well rounded, looking past the numbers, etc." They're less selective. I think this will pretty much inevitably lead to more weak candidates.

But at the end of the day, I still think it's usually better to not limit access to higher education.

 

[1hotaartichoke]

Where are you getting these dropouts? A Touro-NV student informed me that the Class of 2008 had 2 drop outs their first year. NYMC's Class of 2007, an MD school, had around 7 people drop out their first year.



Steps are a different ball game from the MCATs: the former being more knowlege based and the latter being how-to-take-a-test. Despite a correlation between the two, I know of too many instances of high mcats and mediocre to low board scores, and vice versa. It is time that people start to realize that the MCAT is not the final determination of a successful doctor.

All of the students at ANY school will take the Steps and must pass them to qualify for these residencies. So this "low credentials" statement is not a strong enough arguement.

i am also a first yr at touroNV and can confirm that there were only 2 drops from the 2008 class, and they even had a transfer in.

and LindyHopper: as for that one bitter ex-TUNV girl... i can say this to counter her. i am really happy here at TUNV. the faculty and profs are great, as well as the dean. my class is a fun group of people, and i don't regret my decision to attend this school at all 😀

 

[box29]

... They're less selective. I think this will pretty much inevitably lead to more weak candidates...

I'm not quite exactly sure what you mean by less selective and weak candidates. As a student member of the admissions committee, I can definitely state that any candidate for the class of 2010 must have a minimum MCAT of 23 to be offered an interview invite at Touro-NV. Of those who have put down the hefty $2000.00 deposit, which is roughly 112 accepted candidates, the average MCAT so far of those in the class of 2010 is 26 with a 3.3 sci GPA and 3.45 cum GPA. Those who are on the waitlist have similar stats as well. Additionally, the dean has made it a point to look at the number of science hours/credits a candidate has at the time of application. If the number of science hours/credits falls below 50, it will definitely get his attention. As a "new" school, we have probably become the most selective of the "new" schools.

Just an FYI...

 

[Lindyhopper]

I'm not quite exactly sure what you mean by less selective and weak candidates. As a student member of the admissions committee, I can definitely state that any candidate for the class of 2010 must have a minimum MCAT of 23 to be offered an interview invite at Touro-NV. Of those who have put down the hefty $2000.00 deposit, which is roughly 112 accepted candidates, the average MCAT so far of those in the class of 2010 is 26 with a 3.3 sci GPA and 3.45 cum GPA. Those who are on the waitlist have similar stats as well. Additionally, the dean has made it a point to look at the number of science hours/credits a candidate has at the time of application. If the number of science hours/credits falls below 50, it will definitely get his attention. As a "new" school, we have probably become the most selective of the "new" schools.

Just an FYI...

That's what I get for idly speculating in my bathrope. Thanks, for the info. . What do you think of the quality of the educational experience?

 

[FrogE7]

Lindy, first I must commend you on your maturity. Most people on this board have one opinion and are so ardently steadfast on it that no rhyme or reason changes their mind. You on the other hand are open to discussion--a breath of fresh air, to say the least.

That is great to hear. I admit I was just speculating. It was largely based on one women's SDN posts. She went for being so optimistic to being so bitter in about a year and a half. It just seems so sad that it may have skewed my perspective.

Is the woman you are refering to Elysium? Because I agree her posts are rather bitter. But if you can imagine yourself in her shoes, where medical school didn't work quite the way you had hoped, well you would be slightly peeved too, wouldn't you?

But I really don't buy the "well rounded, looking past the numbers, etc." They're less selective. I think this will pretty much inevitably lead to more weak candidates.

These are REAL students:

Student 1 at BU Med:
Very high undergrad GPA: 3.8+ with Biochem major
Below average MCAT: ~28
Barely passing Step 1:~180-190
Class standing: At the bottom of class (barely passed second year)

Did not take any time off--one of those gunner pre-meds who went straight into medical school because that is what she was supposed to do. Now regrets not taking time off and feels trapped.

Student 2 at NYMC
Average GPA: ~3.5
Below average MCAT: 29
High Step 1: 235
Class standing: In the middle of the class and is planning on doing Rads

Took 2 years off just because it "felt right" and wanted to grow up more and become "well rounded."

Student 3 at LECOM
Average GPA: ~3.5 Religion Major
Way below average MCAT: 24
High Step 1: Unknown, but matched allopathic Rads.

Took around 4 years off, got a masters, did research, etc etc. I would call her "well rounded" with tons of life experience. She took the MCAT 3 times and applied to medical school 3 times.
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My point is that there IS value to "well rounded" students and from my experience, they tend to be more "put together" and able to handle stress. Now of course this is not a hard and fast rule, but there are significant amounts of benifits that people just don't recognize.

Student 1 (now a 3rd year) has told me that she has trouble impressing attendings on the floor.

While student 2 has been "high passing" and "honoring" all his 3rd year rotations and is constantly complimented by attendings about his ability to handle patients.

I could go on and on with actual students and their stats, but I won't. I just hope people understand that there are qualities and attributes that can not be quantified, but still exists, and can really help the student shine in the long run.

 

[box29]

That's what I get for idly speculating in my bathrope. Thanks, for the info. . What do you think of the quality of the educational experience?

No problem. 🙂

IMO, the educational experience has been great. Obviously, there are some things that I would like to be changed but overall, I have no real complaints. Every school has its quirks, new or established...anyways, I'm in for the ride and trying to get the most out of what's been dealt to me. There will be some changes for the 2009 and 2010 class that will be better for them and subsequent classes as well.

BTW, where are you going for med school?

 

[NRAI2001]

You are right ... 😉

The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) is the nationally recognized accrediting authority for medical education programs leading to the M.D. degree in U.S


They are in the wrong forum. This is going to be an MD school.

Additionally, I think this is a HORRIBLE IDEA. I also vote NW or somewhere else. 👎 I wish I could get all my friends back in jersey to vote this down but its private so it won't go to vote.

So touro is opening an md school?

 

[mshheaddoc]

supposedly. If they get full approval.

 

[NRAI2001]

supposedly. If they get full approval.

Dam Touro is becoming a giant. Tour MI, NV, Harlem, and now NJ? I heard that they re opening a Touro school in Miami.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Now that's a first. Haven't heard of miami yet. Where did you hear that?

 

[willow18]

Not a med school, just undergrad and Masters program. Seems this is the way Touro operates, relatively smaller campuses in many places.

http://www.touro.edu/general/news/PR-tourosouth.asp