New MD school vs Long established DO

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JB50

JB50

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Well hello preemies + elders.

I have a unique predicament and it revolves around the decision of heading to a new MD school versus one of the most established DO schools (MSUCOM). I am at a loss because I truly love MSUCOM. I just do plain and simple.

The problem is this. I don't really know what I want to do yet in terms of what type of medicine. I don't know if I want to have a surgical aspect or not versus private practice versus who knows what else. I am heading into med school with an open mind that something will perk me up and strike a passion. I know something will I just don't feel comfortable declaring anything until I've seen it at the level we do in med school.

What are some of the downfalls of attending a new MD school versus MSUCOM? I reside in michigan by the way (very DO friendly). There seems to be a consensus that no matter what attend an MD but would a new MD school have the quality of rotations to really validate that?

Thoughts?


@Goro
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The funny thing is the only reason why we tell people to go MD in all cases, is to avoid that non-LCME filter that residency directors use. For new MD schools, that's the only reason (unless the school has lower tuition or offers a scholarship).
 
JB50 said:
Well hello preemies + elders.

I have a unique predicament and it revolves around the decision of heading to a new MD school versus one of the most established DO schools (MSUCOM). I am at a loss because I truly love MSUCOM. I just do plain and simple.

The problem is this. I don't really know what I want to do yet in terms of what type of medicine. I don't know if I want to have a surgical aspect or not versus private practice versus who knows what else. I am heading into med school with an open mind that something will perk me up and strike a passion. I know something will I just don't feel comfortable declaring anything until I've seen it at the level we do in med school.

What are some of the downfalls of attending a new MD school versus MSUCOM? I reside in michigan by the way (very DO friendly). There seems to be a consensus that no matter what attend an MD but would a new MD school have the quality of rotations to really validate that?

Thoughts?


@Goro
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There's your answer. If you're meant to be a surgeon, you'll score a surgical residency.
 
MD no questions. Especially with the merger. The stigma is very real and it sucks but what can you do. Take the MD and don't look back.
 
New schools of any stripe are problematic in this:

1) Even veteran Faculty members need time to gel and deliver their curriculum efficiently.
2) For PDs, the school is a black box and thier grads are unknowns.
3) Relating to 1) students will need to be self-starters and good self-learners, because new faculty will screw things up.
4) Is the new school one of the trio of new MI schools? If so, then they probably simply stole rotation sites from Wayne State and U MI. So this may be less of an issue.

@Affiche, who is one of my favorite SDNers, is going to a new school, so hopefully she can share some insight.

For MSUCOM, a google search led me to their 2013 match list. I couldn't find anything more recent. I'll let you guys figure out the ratio of Primary Care: Specialties. 66/33 is typical for DO schools. And a caveat: Any other trying to interpret a match list is like trying to interpret chicken guts or tea leaves.

http://www.com.msu.edu/Admissions/Documents/2013 Osteopathic Match.pdf

My own opinion is that you'll get a very good education at MSUCOM, and if you're not boning for major specialties, then I'd suggest it over the new MD school. I'd say this to my own kids.




JB50 said:
Well hello preemies + elders.

I have a unique predicament and it revolves around the decision of heading to a new MD school versus one of the most established DO schools (MSUCOM). I am at a loss because I truly love MSUCOM. I just do plain and simple.

The problem is this. I don't really know what I want to do yet in terms of what type of medicine. I don't know if I want to have a surgical aspect or not versus private practice versus who knows what else. I am heading into med school with an open mind that something will perk me up and strike a passion. I know something will I just don't feel comfortable declaring anything until I've seen it at the level we do in med school.

What are some of the downfalls of attending a new MD school versus MSUCOM? I reside in michigan by the way (very DO friendly). There seems to be a consensus that no matter what attend an MD but would a new MD school have the quality of rotations to really validate that?

Thoughts?


@Goro
Click to expand...
 
I'm not faculty or a med student. But, I have plenty of classmates/friends currently at MSUCOM and they have nothing but great things to say about it. I've also shadowed and scribed for multiple MSUCOM alums in relatively competitive specialties. All for what it's worth, of course. Just my .02
 
Goro said:
New schools of any stripe are problematic in this:

1) Even veteran Faculty members need time to gel and deliver their curriculum efficiently.
2) For PDs, the school is a black box and thier grads are unknowns.
3) Relating to 1) students will need to be self-starters and good self-learners, because new faculty will screw things up.
4) Is the new school one of the trio of new MI schools? If so, then they probably simply stole rotation sites from Wayne State and U MI. So this may be less of an issue.

@Affiche, who is one of my favorite SDNers, is going to a new school, so hopefully she can share some insight.

For MSUCOM, a google search led me to their 2013 match list. I couldn't find anything more recent. I'll let you guys figure out the ratio of Primary Care: Specialties. 66/33 is typical for DO schools. And a caveat: Any other trying to interpret a match list is like trying to interpret chicken guts or tea leaves.

http://www.com.msu.edu/Admissions/Documents/2013 Osteopathic Match.pdf

My own opinion is that you'll get a very good education at MSUCOM, and if you're not boning for major specialties, then I'd suggest it over the new MD school. I'd say this to my own kids.
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Augh. Was that match list format designed by Satan?
 
Ehh I have friends at western . And they have mixed feelings about it there . As opposed to COM we have well established Rep. on top of that our school is affiliated with many competitive and non competitive programs so in reality you can't lose . I would suggest go with which one you felt most comfortable and welcomed at and factor in price.
One last thing I wanted to add, is to ask people from western how they feel about the education they received

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being one of the older DO schools, it's no surprise that they send more people into AOA match vs ACGME.

What I see from the AOA match is the opposite of what my kids do for AOA: there's almost a 50/50 ration between Primary Care and specialties. Interestingly, very few go into Psych or Peds. My own kids love Peds. Lots of EM grads from MSU. I'll let our wise residents and attendings comment on quality of the residency sites.

JB50 said:
@Goro could you shed your thoughts on this? Will update when I find the Allopathic pdf

http://com.msu.edu/Students/Career_Guidance/2016_AOA_Match.pdf

^2016 match

2015 match but by program
http://com.msu.edu/Students/Career_Guidance/specialty_prog_match_2015.pdf

They seem to struggle a bit with their website lol.

http://www.com.msu.edu/Students/Resources/Class_2016_Match_.pdf
^interesting. 88 matched ACGME, 200+ AOA
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JB50 said:
WMed



Thank you goro!
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Western Michigan Stryker already has residencies set up in EM, IM, surg, ortho, and the lot. MSUCOM also has many many residencies. But this area is def not a area to base your decision on.

All I'm going to say is if you go MD (so long as it isn't CalNorthstateUni) no matter if a new school, your ability to apply to any specialty in many attractive locations at all tiers is there for you if you succeed as a medical student. As a DO you will be hindered from specific residencies based on specialty or location or prestige even with an amazing application. Not to say you can't do it but you create and uphill battle. For example: PCOM grad ended up doing plastics at UPenn/HUP but had to take an additional year of research, same for KCU grads doing neurosurgery at arrowhead (a community hospital). As an MD student you will have access to these surgical sub specialties from the get go, can get mentored, and can conduct research. Does PCOM and MSU have these as well? Sure. But at lol the end of the day you can at least confidently send your residency app to all programs and not have it ignored simply because you're a DO.

Without a doubt you will see a match at WMed stronger (by stronger I mean speciality and PC matches at university programs and very strong community hospitals) then those of even the most established DO schools.

So I don't see why you'd close doors on yourself. It isn't CNU. Go MD.


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AlteredScale said:
Western Michigan Stryker > MSUCOM
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Ugh. Not what I wanted to hear Altered🙁😉

Thanks guys! You've definitely shed some light on the choice for me. I really appreciate it. This is going to be a very hard decision.
 
JB50 said:
Ugh. Not what I wanted to hear Altered🙁😉

Thanks guys! You've definitely shed some light on the choice for me. I really appreciate it. This is going to be a very hard decision.
Click to expand...

You quoted me wrong! Lol.

It is very tough. At the end of the day you will get to be a doctor no matter your decision. You just gotta way what's important to you and do your research, talk to the schools, bug the hell out of them to see what they provide for you.

Good luck 🙂


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This happens a lot with the new schools....they duke it out with the established schools. CN"U" did this with UCD.

Established schools do it as well to each other. Dartmouth bought out a number of UCF sites, and the Carib diploma mills, already flush with cash, do it to US schools too.

Affiche said:
And @Goro we've talked about this lol they did not steal rotations from Wayne or UofM (which has its own hospital), their hospitals took back their own sites for their students.
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I have a warm cuddly feeling when I consider MSUCOM that I don't get when I think about going to my new MD, and that is hard to shake. But when I look at the fact that ZERO DO graduates matched the fellowship in which I am interested, compared to 85% of MD grads, it helps me overlook a lot of the "flaws" of the new MD. I urge you to take a look at NMRP data, because no matter how high your scores are, I am inclined to believe there WILL be doors shut on you just because of the letters behind your name.

We all know MSUCOM is a great school and this is a hard decision, so when you figure out the answer let me know lol.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Results-and-Data-SMS-2016_Final.pdf
 
It doesn't make sense!!!



LutGholein said:
I bring this to the discussion--even though I've barely been accepted I don't think this match list looks right.

http://www.med.wmich.edu/sites/default/files/MatchList2015.pdf

Thoughts @Goro ?

The moment you look at it(Look at the FM results specifically)-- you see Carib matches??(I didn't know this was even possible) and international Indian schools and interestingly enough-- a lot of DO school matches for residency for WMed students.

This is why I don't outright say take the MD. Ask about this list.

Full disclosure: I've picked an MD school(not WMed) but the WMed list is just.....odd? Idk what else to say.
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I don't know how you guys are getting a match list for them my friends in the first class and she started school in 2014 so she's on clerkship right now. There is no match list is a brand-new school


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femmegoblue said:
I have a warm cuddly feeling when I consider MSUCOM
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I don't really have an emotional connection to MSUCOM lol I just have a greater peace of mind at a very established and reputable school, albeit DO, versus a new school that hasn't even graduated a class yet. Ugh why guys why.
 
JB50 said:
I don't really have an emotional connection to MSUCOM lol I just have a greater peace of mind at a very established and reputable school, albeit DO, versus a new school that hasn't even graduated a class yet. Ugh why guys why.
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Where every you go you'll have to bust your ass. Make connections to get publication, teach yourself concepts. Go MD my friend. I attend and love MSUCOM but I'd still say go MD


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Dr.Jekyll75 said:
Where every you go you'll have to bust your ass. Make connections to get publication, teach yourself concepts. Go MD my friend. I attend and love MSUCOM but I'd still say go MD


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Why are you saying go MD if you haven't graduate yet? Just curious mane.
 
JB50 said:
Why are you saying go MD if you haven't graduate yet? Just curious mane.
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-here are my two cents. If you have any ambition to match into ORTHO, DERM or NEURO SURG, the doors are closed to you as a DO. With the Merger, DO will now be treated even more like second class citizens. Dos would have their own match with these specialties. Now im not A self hating DO if youre gonna try to pull that card, I do enjoy MSUCOM and the idea of being a DO. But i dont enjoy the idea that if i apply for a position with similar step score and credentials as a MD counter part, i am less likely to get it. ALSO PDs have NON LCME filters, so you can get filtered of spots before they even look at your app. Again this should only concern you if you plan on doing one of those 3 specialties. IF not, go to COM because you enjoy it.
 
Dr.Jekyll75 said:
-here are my two cents. If you have any ambition to match into ORTHO, DERM or NEURO SURG, the doors are closed to you as a DO. With the Merger, DO will now be treated even more like second class citizens. Dos would have their own match with these specialties. Now im not A self hating DO if youre gonna try to pull that card, I do enjoy MSUCOM and the idea of being a DO. But i dont enjoy the idea that if i apply for a position with similar step score and credentials as a MD counter part, i am less likely to get it. ALSO PDs have NON LCME filters, so you can get filtered of spots before they even look at your app. Again this should only concern you if you plan on doing one of those 3 specialties. IF not, go to COM because you enjoy it.
Click to expand...

I wasn't really trying to prod you or anything I wasn't pulling any cards lol. Just wondering what you thoughts were as a med student. Thanks for your comments though 🙂
 
JB50 said:
I wasn't really trying to prod you or anything I wasn't pulling any cards lol. Just wondering what you thoughts were as a med student. Thanks for your comments though 🙂
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What ive told my friends who were in a similar position is have prioriteis. 1. Which school makes you feel more welcome? 2. Which is cheaper ? 3. Which is closer to home? 4. Which will help you achieve your desired goals ? if you fill these questions out for your self it should be clear. If you are still on the edge. Do A tour of each School again. If you come To COM ill talk to you personally.
 
Dr.Jekyll75 said:
-here are my two cents. If you have any ambition to match into ORTHO, DERM or NEURO SURG, the doors are closed to you as a DO. With the Merger, DO will now be treated even more like second class citizens. Dos would have their own match with these specialties. Now im not A self hating DO if youre gonna try to pull that card, I do enjoy MSUCOM and the idea of being a DO. But i dont enjoy the idea that if i apply for a position with similar step score and credentials as a MD counter part, i am less likely to get it. ALSO PDs have NON LCME filters, so you can get filtered of spots before they even look at your app. Again this should only concern you if you plan on doing one of those 3 specialties. IF not, go to COM because you enjoy it.
Click to expand...

This right here. Before the merger DOs applied and were considered independent applicants to the NRMP/ACGME match. US MDs were considered to be "US medical graduate applicants" and PDs could filter applications as such. Now with the merger I am not aware if DOs will be considered in the same group but I am sure there are still filtered that move DOs into a different pile. Obv this doesn't mean DOs can't get into a program that does that but in essence, priority will go to students coming from US MD granting institutions.

Reputation of a DO school is great and all but not even the oldest DO school with the best Rep gives you a fair shot an competitive academic specialties both surgical and non surgical.


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Man this merger thing is really throwing a lot of loops into medical education. What the heck is this merger supposed to solve.
 
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JB50 said:
Man this merger thing is really throwing a lot of loops into medical education. What the heck is this merger supposed to solve.
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lol how do you think class of 2019 feels, we are gonna be the forgotten class. We are the last one before it fully mergers.
 
Dr.Jekyll75 said:
lol how do you think class of 2019 feels, we are gonna be the forgotten class. We are the last one before it fully mergers.
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I was trying to think in my head the first class that was gonna be hit with the merger lolol. Wouldn't that be a positive thing...?
 
JB50 said:
I was trying to think in my head the first class that was gonna be hit with the merger lolol. Wouldn't that be a positive thing...?
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eh its up in there air, no one is really sure how many ACGME approved AOA residency will still participate in the AOA Match, from what im told at the heads of MSU is that most will only participate in the ACGME . 2020 is the first class to go in the unified match.
 
JB50 said:
Man this merger thing is really throwing a lot of loops into medical education. What the heck is this merger supposed to solve.
Click to expand...
Squeezes out IMGs? I don't know ...
 
Dr.Jekyll75 said:
eh its up in there air, no one is really sure how many ACGME approved AOA residency will still participate in the AOA Match, from what im told at the heads of MSU is that most will only participate in the ACGME . 2020 is the first class to go in the unified match.
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So when you match, and lets say you match AOA, how does that change a year later when they are unified/post-merging?
 
Kgizzle said:
Squeezes out IMGs? I don't know ...
Click to expand...

Seems like it's squeezing out DO's as well from desireable specialties.

Here is what I predict. Please put this in your signatures as a quote from JB50.

There will be some turbulence for a year or two, but it's not going to change things as much as everyone is ****ting themselves. Those residencies that don't survive the merger shouldn't have. DO schools, especially well-respected ones, are now having entrance numbers closer and closer to allopathic schools. It's only a matter of time before the bias phases out and a great applicant is a great applicant, regardless of John Doe, MD or Jane Doe, DO.
 
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Dr.Jekyll75 said:
eh its up in there air, no one is really sure how many ACGME approved AOA residency will still participate in the AOA Match, from what im told at the heads of MSU is that most will only participate in the ACGME . 2020 is the first class to go in the unified match.
Click to expand...

On the bright side, if you matched into an ACGME approved AOA residency as a DO after the merger, wouldn't that be a good thing because now the residency is considered "competitive"?
 
Go MD. Avoid the filter. Even if one could argue that you get a better education at the DO school, who cares if the residency you're interested in filters out your application?


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