New Schools great for the profession

[DRLEWISDO]

I just want to say that the adevnt of all of these schools is very good for the profession. It is opening our exposure and increasing our numbers nationwide. I feel that our profession as a whole is on the brink of academic greatness. I would like to see our school number over 50, with EVERY state in the US having a school of osteopathic medicine.

Thoughts?

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[CommanderRiker]

I just want to say that the adevnt of all of these schools is very good for the profession. It is opening our exposure and increasing our numbers nationwide. I feel that our profession as a whole is on the brink of academic greatness. I would like to see our school number over 50, with EVERY state in the US having a school of osteopathic medicine.

Thoughts?

Good post.

 

[DRLEWISDO]

Good post.

Thanks...

It is a very encouraging sign for the profession that we are gaining accrediation for all of these schools. I heard today that there is talk of schools opening soon in Washington DC and another one in Michigan. I would like to see another added in California and perhaps Hawaii.

I think there has been ONE MD school (Florida State) added vs like 10 schools for DO in the same time frame. That says alot to me.....

All very good for DO

 

[DrVanNostran]

Thanks...

It is a very encouraging sign for the profession that we are gaining accrediation for all of these schools. I heard today that there is talk of schools opening soon in Washington DC and another one in Michigan. I would like to see another added in California and perhaps Hawaii.

I think there has been ONE MD school (Florida State) added vs like 10 schools for DO in the same time frame. That says alot to me.....

All very good for DO

fyi, UCF, FAU, and a new school in Michigan are upcoming MD schools

As for DO schools, I am REALLY glad that more are opening up. I hope the one in Washington State opens soon

 

[medhacker]

If we can now have a proportionate amount of osteopathic GME residency spots, we will be in paradise.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

fyi, UCF, FAU, and a new school in Michigan are upcoming MD schools

As for DO schools, I am REALLY glad that more are opening up. I hope the one in Washington State opens soon

I think they are doing more harm than good, where as the focus should be on improving the quality of osteopathic residencies as opposed to cranking out more students to squabble over the allopathic spots.

the profession

The profession is medicine, not osteopathic medicine. Keep that in mind.

All very good for DO

No, all very good for the investors in these schools.

 

[JonnyG]

I just want to say that the adevnt of all of these schools is very good for the profession. It is opening our exposure and increasing our numbers nationwide. I feel that our profession as a whole is on the brink of academic greatness. I would like to see our school number over 50, with EVERY state in the US having a school of osteopathic medicine.

Thoughts?

You will learn this is not a good thing, even the AOA president has expressed concern about this in the DO magazine.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

You will learn this is not a good thing, even the AOA president has expressed concern about this in the DO magazine.

You're ****ting me? I actually agree with Dr. Snotsnider or whatever his name is on something? Hell has officially frozen over.

 

[JonnyG]

You're ****ting me? I actually agree with Dr. Snotsnider or whatever his name is on something? Hell has officially frozen over.

I know, both the president and the executive director have written about this in the past year. Reason: need to improve the quality of residency, have a residency for every osteopathic student first before adding more schools, the adding of more schools hurts the profession by adding students who do not subscribe to the osteopathic system (Somewhere it was mentioned that some schools want OMM as an elective), time would be better spent screening applicants on the desire to practice as an osteopathic physician then in increasing enrollment. they were very well written articles. Essentially it goes to Quality over Quanity.

 

[lala83]

it's dr. strosnider

 

[DropkickMurphy]

it's dr. strosnider

Whatever.....it amazes me that the man pulled his head from the sand long enough to realize the mistakes that will bite the osteopathic programs in the ass if someone doesn't apply the brakes.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I know, both the president and the executive director have written about this in the past year. Reason: need to improve the quality of residency, have a residency for every osteopathic student first before adding more schools, the adding of more schools hurts the profession by adding students who do not subscribe to the osteopathic system (Somewhere it was mentioned that some schools want OMM as an elective), time would be better spent screening applicants on the desire to practice as an osteopathic physician then in increasing enrollment. they were very well written articles. Essentially it goes to Quality over Quanity.

The emphasis should be on wanting to produce quality physicians and then worry if they will believe in OMM and what not. OMM SHOULD be an elective. And there are residency spots for every student apparently.....there are loads of them that don't fill every year because of questionable quality and undesirable location.

To fix the problem:
1. Moratorium on new schools
2. Require all DO residencies to gain ACGME accreditation to alleviate any concerns about quality
3. Make OMM an option and replace the required course with a seminar on the history of osteopathic medicine so that if anyone is interested in it, a few might be interested in taking the OMM elective. If OMM is to remain a required course, it should only include those practices that are verifiably useful through large scale studies (n=>50) and it's place as an adjunctive therapy should be emphasized.
4. Require all graduates to pass the USMLE and do away with the COMLEX.

Quality over quantity and the yardstick for quality is not whether the incoming class believes in osteopathic philosophy. It is the achievements of the graduates and the standard against which they will be judged has been, is and will continue to be an allopathic one whether Strosnider and his lackies like it or not.

 

[JonnyG]

Whatever.....it amazes me that the man pulled his head from the sand long enough to realize the mistakes that will bite the osteopathic programs in the ass if someone doesn't apply the brakes.

In his defense, most of the stuff i quoted was from his speech he gave when he became president. The problems he cited were before he started. I will be curious to see how the new president handles things. Also, the president cannot control the licensing organization. They are somewhat independent


Im suprised none of the pre osteos have used the physician shortage as a defense yet.

 

[Lucky Buck]

fyi, UCF, FAU, and a new school in Michigan are upcoming MD schools

As for DO schools, I am REALLY glad that more are opening up. I hope the one in Washington State opens soon

Correction.....I think you meant FIU not FAU. Currently, UM uses FAU's Boca campus as a regional campus for it's MD program. FAU would eventually like to have their own MD program, but that won't happen for a while. MD programs at FIU and UCF were approved by the state last year and classes will begin sometime between 2008-2010.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

The problems will continue until the old generation is dead or invalid and someone has a sufficiently large pair to stand up and go "Cut the crap.....".

Also, the president cannot control the licensing organization. They are somewhat independent

Then what good is the AOA if they can't exert enough pull to make the BS stop? I'm sure if they were less concerned with keeping up the status quo alive and well, then things would change. But since they don't see the true source of the issues, they won't put pressure on the right groups to fix them.

 

[Seger]

I know, both the president and the executive director have written about this in the past year. Reason: need to improve the quality of residency, have a residency for every osteopathic student first before adding more schools, the adding of more schools hurts the profession by adding students who do not subscribe to the osteopathic system (Somewhere it was mentioned that some schools want OMM as an elective), time would be better spent screening applicants on the desire to practice as an osteopathic physician then in increasing enrollment. they were very well written articles. Essentially it goes to Quality over Quanity.

I agree completely about quality over quantity and the emphasis on screening applicants for their commitment to practicing osteopathic medicine. I think the key to this is practicing medicine. I see so much written on these threads about research this and research that. I'm from the school of thought that if you want to do research, go get a Ph.D....I think the problem is that so many people get accepted to medical school due to impeccable academic credentials, but lack the ability or the will to communicate with people.

Only a fool would believe that medical research is not necessary, but I think medical schools should focus more on training physicians to treat people with the weapons already in the arsenal rather than focusing on getting better weapons.

To me, osteopathic schools emphasize this much more than allopathic schools, and that's why they are getting so many approvals. If anyone knows of a source for numbers on the percentage of MD's vs DO's who actually practice medicine after, say 10 years, please post a link.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

that's why they are getting so many approvals

No, it's because they have their own accreditation service (if I remember right). Don't give them more credit than is due them.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

No, it's because they have their own accreditation service (if I remember right). Don't give them more credit than is due them.

The schools only need about 5 million right?

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I know, both the president and the executive director have written about this in the past year. Reason: need to improve the quality of residency, have a residency for every osteopathic student first before adding more schools, the adding of more schools hurts the profession by adding students who do not subscribe to the osteopathic system (Somewhere it was mentioned that some schools want OMM as an elective), time would be better spent screening applicants on the desire to practice as an osteopathic physician then in increasing enrollment. they were very well written articles. Essentially it goes to Quality over Quanity.

IF the AOA President and ED agree on this, then why are all these schools springing up? In addition, why are the GME programs not improving in quality?

 

[CommanderRiker]

If you meet good D.O.s who are very well respected, they sincerely believe osteopathy to be superior to allopathy. This is part of the reason why many osteopathic professionals are not keen on consummately melding their field with fellow allopathics. Personally I feel that osteopathy is the way medicine is supposed to be practiced. Trouble is, what we think is largely irrelevant because we're such a minority.

Riker-Omega out. End transmission.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Personally I feel that osteopathy is the way medicine is supposed to be practiced.

If you mean "the philosophy" and whole person theory....uh, I hate to break it to you but the way that medicine is taught to *gasp* MDs. The only difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine is OMM (which most don't use) and a seperate set of residencies which are (in many cases) of questionable quality. Oh, and the fact that they are still taught things that are as outdated and laughable (*cough*cranial *cough*) as if MDs were still being taught that evil spirits and humors cause disease.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

If you meet good D.O.s who are very well respected, they sincerely believe osteopathy to be superior to allopathy. This is part of the reason why many osteopathic professionals are not keen on consummately melding their field with fellow allopathics. Personally I feel that osteopathy is the way medicine is supposed to be practiced. Trouble is, what we think is largely irrelevant because we're such a minority.

Riker-Omega out. End transmission.

Pulling an Al Gore, eh?

 

[CommanderRiker]

Pulling an Al Gore, eh?

Al Gorian or not, it is.....

the truth.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Al Gorian or not, it is.....

the truth.

Frequently you say allo is superior to osteo, now you flip and say osteo philosophy is the best way to practice medicine? What is this special philosophy that isn't found in MD physicians? OMM isn't a philosophy. Plus, all doctors look at the patient holistically and treat the patient, not strictly the illness/disease.

Get your facts straight Commando.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Frequently you say allo is superior to osteo, now you flip and say osteo philosophy is the best way to practice medicine?

Wouldn't that be pulling a John Kerry? Not an Al Gore?

 

[CommanderRiker]

Frequently you say allo is superior to osteo, now you flip and say osteo philosophy is the best way to practice medicine? What is this special philosophy that isn't found in MD physicians? OMM isn't a philosophy. Plus, all doctors look at the patient holistically and treat the patient, not strictly the illness/disease.

Get your facts straight Commando.

You're a....medical student. I'm sure if you think about it, the answer will lend itself to you.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Wouldn't that be pulling a John Kerry? Not an Al Gore?

You're right, Al Gore was the one who spat out random crap nobody could understand.

Can't keep up with the Democrats these days ... almost like those Trekkie conventions eh Commando?

 

[Nickelpennykid]

If you meet good D.O.s who are very well respected, they sincerely believe osteopathy to be superior to allopathy. This is part of the reason why many osteopathic professionals are not keen on consummately melding their field with fellow allopathics. Personally I feel that osteopathy is the way medicine is supposed to be practiced. Trouble is, what we think is largely irrelevant because we're such a minority.

Riker-Omega out. End transmission.

You personally have no idea what you are talking about, as evidenced by most of your posts, seeing as how you have never practiced osteopathic or any other kind of medicine. Its great that you liked the handfull of DO's that you prob. saw/shadowed while you were an undergrad, but the "holistic" and "hands-on" approach to medicine is more a reflection of the individual doctor, not osteopathic training.

An increase in the number of DO's school is bad. The most important learning years are post-grad, and there aren't enough osteoptathic residency positions as it is, so opening a bunch of new schools is going to increase the reliance on MD programs to train DO's. Add more post-grad positions, then worry about opening new schools. Aside from giving the bottom half of the MCAT percentile the chance to enter medical school, this isn't going to help.

Also please stop the star wars crap, it makes your posts all the more unreadable.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Although I like the idea (in theory) of more Osteopathic Medical Schools, I think that more medical schools in general are sprouting up. As someone pointed out previously, the OP is wrong about just one MD school. Touro is well on their way to opening a new allopathic school in New Jersey.

http://hsccf.hsc.usf.edu:60/health/now/?p=92//

Touro opening up an allo school?

Damn, I want in some of that bling ...

 

[DropkickMurphy]

star wars crap

Star Trek.....but still crap.

there aren't enough osteopathic residency positions as it is

Correction: there aren't enough GOOD osteopathic residency positions.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

Star Trek.....but still crap.


Correction: there aren't enough GOOD osteopathic residency positions.

Agreed, good osteopathic residency programs. Like JP, I would like to enter a great osteopathic surgical residency, but from what I have heard there aren't that many.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

You're a....medical student. I'm sure if you think about it, the answer will lend itself to you.

It does lend itself to me. The answer is you're full of crap. There is no difference outside of OMM.

 

[CommanderRiker]

You personally have no idea what you are talking about, as evidenced by most of your posts, seeing as how you have never practiced osteopathic or any other kind of medicine. Its great that you liked the handfull of DO's that you prob. saw/shadowed while you were an undergrad, but the "holistic" and "hands-on" approach to medicine is more a reflection of the individual doctor, not osteopathic training.

An increase in the number of DO's school is bad. The most important learning years are post-grad, and there aren't enough osteoptathic residency positions as it is, so opening a bunch of new schools is going to increase the reliance on MD programs to train DO's. Add more post-grad positions, then worry about opening new schools. Aside from giving the bottom half of the MCAT percentile the chance to enter medical school, this isn't going to help.

Also please stop the star wars crap, it makes your posts all the more unreadable.

I disagree.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

Agreed, good osteopathic residency programs. Like JP, I would like to enter a great osteopathic surgical residency, but from what I have heard there aren't that many.

Unfortunately, I don't live up north. That is where a good number of good programs are avail.

 

[GreenShirt]

To fix the problem:
1. Moratorium on new schools
2. Require all DO residencies to gain ACGME accreditation to alleviate any concerns about quality
3. Make OMM an option and replace the required course with a seminar on the history of osteopathic medicine so that if anyone is interested in it, a few might be interested in taking the OMM elective. If OMM is to remain a required course, it should only include those practices that are verifiably useful through large scale studies (n=>50) and it's place as an adjunctive therapy should be emphasized.
4. Require all graduates to pass the USMLE and do away with the COMLEX.

If they did this, then they'd be no different than allo schools. The whole reason (good or bad) the DO community clings to the OMM is that it's the only reason for their separate existence.

Same thing w/ the focus on PC and underserved populations. DO's don't do it b/c they're more compasionate and want to be humble Dr.s helping the poor. It's b/c of politics and survival. The only reason DO's are still around is b/c they fill this niche which MDs don't. State legislatures were less likely to help the AMA's efforts in wiping DO's out b/c they were providing the health safety net.

OMM, PC, rural and underserved all politics to keep the profession alive.

 

[GreenShirt]

Maybe more grads will force more residency spots and help with the shortage.

 

[CommanderRiker]

It does lend itself to me. The answer is you're full of crap. There is no difference outside of OMM.

L.O.L., and O.M.M. is not a big component of osteopathy, right? Thanks for the laughs.

 

[DragonWell]

I don't even know where to start with this thread; it's a train wreck waiting to happen.

Through a lot of people's hard work, Osteopathic medicine has achieved professional success, evidenced by the quality of the match lists floating around, and it certainly has much to be proud of. However, it is quite common in the business world to see a company "fail at success" - once the company grows past a certain size, whatever made it work just seems to evaporate. It seems a definite possibility that unbridled growth and mismanagement could lead osteopathic medicine down this path.

I also think that there's a huge conceptual divide between the osteopathic "oldtimers" and the modern students who are swelling the ranks of DO schools. There seem to be a whole lot of people at DO schools who are willing to put up with OMM, smile and nod when someone says "holistic", get into a residency and never look back. If the "California split" were to happen again today, or say in 10 -15 years, I think we might see a very different outcome.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

I disagree.

Well that helps.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

L.O.L., and O.M.M. is not a big component of osteopathy, right? Thanks for the laughs.

It is DURING med school, but most DOs don't use OMM. Most that do are PM&Rs and FP.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

L.O.L., and O.M.M. is not a big component of osteopathy, right? Thanks for the laughs.

Pull yourself away from space fantasy land and actually take a look at the number of PC DO's that use OMM in thier daily practice. I am not saying that is a good or bad thing, since I havne't learned it, but it is shockingly low...which leads to the statment that it is no longer a big component of osteopathy. Please stop posting.

 

[DragonWell]

L.O.L., and O.M.M. is not a big component of osteopathy, right? Thanks for the laughs.

Just for the record, osteopathy is practiced in Britain, Australia and some parts of Europe. In America, we are Osteopathic Physicians who practice Osteopathic Medicine. There are significant differences between the two.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

If they did this, then they'd be no different than allo schools.

And that would be a bad thing why?

OMM, PC, rural and underserved all politics to keep the profession alive.

No, it will be the egos of a few of the old guard who are among the 1% who actually bought the BS hook, line and sinker that will do that.

I disagree.

So? That doesn't change anything.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

According to some questionable googling results it should be open in 2008.
Sorry to hijack this thread (it didn't look that productive anyway ). But what do you guys think of an MD program at Touro?

McTouroville Academy.

Eh, I think allo institutes have stricter accreditation policies, so it probably will be a better program than its DO counterparts.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

L.O.L., and O.M.M. is not a big component of osteopathy, right? Thanks for the laughs.

Seeing as between 1-5% of DOs actually use it? Yeah, it's a huge ****ing part of the practice of medicine for the osteopathic docs apparently.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

Seeing as between 1-5% of DOs actually use it? Yeah, it's a huge ****ing part of the practice of medicine for the osteopathic docs apparently.

It angers me to no end that he got into PCOM.

 

[Dr.Inviz]

I don't even know where to start with this thread; it's a train wreck waiting to happen.

Through a lot of people's hard work, Osteopathic medicine has achieved professional success, evidenced by the quality of the match lists floating around, and it certainly has much to be proud of. However, it is quite common in the business world to see a company "fail at success" - once the company grows past a certain size, whatever made it work just seems to evaporate. It seems a definite possibility that unbridled growth and mismanagement could lead osteopathic medicine down this path.

I also think that there's a huge conceptual divide between the osteopathic "oldtimers" and the modern students who are swelling the ranks of DO schools. There seem to be a whole lot of people at DO schools who are willing to put up with OMM, smile and nod when someone says "holistic", get into a residency and never look back. If the "California split" were to happen again today, or say in 10 -15 years, I think we might see a very different outcome.

If it was deemed unconstitutional for the AMA to do a takeover of the DO school in Cali and to flip the DOs to MDs for $65, then why wasn't the AOA able to reclaim their lost DO school?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Just for the record, osteopathy is practiced in Britain, Australia and some parts of Europe. In America, we are Osteopathic Physicians who practice Osteopathic Medicine. There are significant differences between the two.

Yeah, one is a doc....the other is viewed as a weird massage therapy/chiropractor fringe element.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

It angers me to no end that he got into PCOM.

Riker? Oh well.....he'll no doubt graduate at the bottom of his class and have alienated his class by the end of the first month.

 

[GreenShirt]

1) And that would be a bad thing why?

2) No, it will be the egos of a few of the old guard who are among the 1% who actually bought the BS hook, line and sinker that will do that.
.

1) That's a separate arguement. I'm just saying why OMM is madatory when few use it.

2) See #1