No Away Rotations, Limited Selectives For Competitive Specialty

[Detective SnowBucket]

Hi all, I'm considering doing the MD/MBA dual degree but just because of the set-up for the schedule, it would virtually eliminate the possibility of doing anything away. I'm also looking to match into ortho. With this in mind, I still think I can get plenty of research in but also limited selectives on the other hand. Is this an app-killer for ortho, not having away rotations?

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[lagbydesign]

I can pretty confidently say yes. They are a must. Never heard of anyone not doing aways. @OrthoTraumaMD

 

[plasticsday1]

Yes. You will not get even a single interview without at least 1 away rotation (most people do 2-3) if applying for a surgical subspecialty. Unless you have an extremely specific use in mind for the MBA, it is absolutely useless. Do you want to be an orthopedic surgeon, or a businessman/consultant?

 

[NotaCop]

Kid at my school is doing 4

 

[doc05]

Hi all, I'm considering doing the MD/MBA dual degree but just because of the set-up for the schedule, it would virtually eliminate the possibility of doing anything away. I'm also looking to match into ortho. With this in mind, I still think I can get plenty of research in but also limited selectives on the other hand. Is this an app-killer for ortho, not having away rotations?

An MBA is useless if you plan on practicing. And if you plan on an MBA type career, don’t bother with residency.

I don’t do ortho, but another surgical specialty. Pretty foolish to choose a specialty without demonstrating strong interest via multiple rotations. (Research isn’t the same as clinical practice, it’s not enough.)

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

What do you plan on doing with an MBA?

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

No idea. Just thought it'd be neat to have. Maybe going into business after retiring from medicine.

 

[Med Ed]

No idea. Just thought it'd be neat to have. Maybe going into business after retiring from medicine.

This is not a rationale for getting another degree.

 

[anon6134]

Echoing the sentiment above. You want to pay extra money to get a degree you don't have a plan to use, all while knowingly limiting your chances to match into the specialty you want.

Bro

 

[managedcarefin]

No idea. Just thought it'd be neat to have. Maybe going into business after retiring from medicine.

This is a bad idea get your MBA during residency if you really want it.

 

[DO2015CA]

Just don’t get your MBA until you are thinking about retiring. You will have lost all that knowledge anyways between now and retirement

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Do NOT do this.
An MBA is useless unless you plan on becoming a hospital administrator or going into private practice with a lot of side hustles. But you are far away from that.
Without an away rotation (the average is 3 to 4), your Ortho application is in the toilet. That is the first thing they will ask you, “why didn’t you do any aways? Do you even know what this specialty is about?”
This is assuming you make it to the interview stage in the first place. Which you won’t.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

Echoing the sentiment above. You want to pay extra money to get a degree you don't have a plan to use, all while knowingly limiting your chances to match into the specialty you want.

Bro

That's actually why I'm asking, It was not 'all while knowing' I'd be limited. Hence, this post.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

@managedcarefin I like the sound of that. I have looked through some ortho residency programs and I've never seen one that does offer this, though I have heard it exists. How would you go about looking for this type of residency, just for planning (read: aways). Is it generally common or on a case-by-case basis?

 

[Boola Boy]

Do NOT do this.
An MBA is useless unless you plan on becoming a hospital administrator or going into private practice with a lot of side hustles. But you are far away from that.
Without an away rotation (the average is 3 to 4), your Ortho application is in the toilet. That is the first thing they will ask you, “why didn’t you do any aways? Do you even know what this specialty is about?”
This is assuming you make it to the interview stage in the first place. Which you won’t.

Wow, so what if people don't have cash lying around to do aways? Are we expected to take loans out to do away rotations now? Or does one have to change their specialty choice to something less competitive?

Good thing I'm not interested in something competitive

 

[Quantal Reasoning]

Do NOT do this.
An MBA is useless unless you plan on becoming a hospital administrator or going into private practice with a lot of side hustles. But you are far away from that.
Without an away rotation (the average is 3 to 4), your Ortho application is in the toilet. That is the first thing they will ask you, “why didn’t you do any aways? Do you even know what this specialty is about?”
This is assuming you make it to the interview stage in the first place. Which you won’t.

With respect, I obviously do not know what sort of side hustle you are talking about so my response is going to be from that perspective, the private practice people I know with the most successful side hustles did not get an MBA. Granted, they may have left money on the table by not getting one.

 

[NotaCop]

Are we expected to take loans out to do away rotations now?

In short, yes. The medical field has always had a financial barrier to entry (or barrier to success).

Not saying it’s right, just that it is.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Wow, so what if people don't have cash lying around to do aways? Are we expected to take loans out to do away rotations now? Or does one have to change their specialty choice to something less competitive?

Good thing I'm not interested in something competitive

I did all my aways within my own state, so I didn’t need to spend a lot of money. But yes. If you’re doing something competitive, aways are a must.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

With respect, I obviously do not know what sort of side hustle you are talking about so my response is going to be from that perspective, the private practice people I know with the most successful side hustles did not get an MBA. Granted, they may have left money on the table by not getting one.

Yeah that’s more what I meant, it can really help with the success of side hustles if you know how to run a business. For example I have a friend who does cosmetic stuff on the side and the business requires a lot of knowledge (marketing, etc) that we simply don’t have.

 

[doc05]

@managedcarefin I like the sound of that. I have looked through some ortho residency programs and I've never seen one that does offer this, though I have heard it exists. How would you go about looking for this type of residency, just for planning (read: aways). Is it generally common or on a case-by-case basis?

Don’t do an MBA during any surgical residency. It’s foolish. Wait till you’re in practice. When you’re 5-10 years away from retiring, then do an executive MBA.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

Don’t do an MBA during any surgical residency. It’s foolish. Wait till you’re in practice. When you’re 5-10 years away from retiring, then do an executive MBA.

But I do like the idea of it being paid for. I do value your opinion because I want to know options, but without the weight of a reason behind it, yours doesn't sound the better option.

 

[Med Ed]

But I do like the idea of it being paid for. I do value your opinion because I want to know options, but without the weight of a reason behind it, yours doesn't sound the better option.

Look, this isn't hard.

Option #1: Don't do combined degree. Work hard in audition rotations at other institutions. Use goodwill to match. Finish residency. Make bank. Get MBA later if you have a clear need for it.

Option #2: Do combined degree. Don't do audition rotations. Fail in match. SOAP into prelim surgery slot. Find open PGY-2 position in second or third choice specialty. Hate everything and everyone, especially yourself.

 

[doc05]

But I do like the idea of it being paid for. I do value your opinion because I want to know options, but without the weight of a reason behind it, yours doesn't sound the better option.

Of course it’s the better option.

The MBA is of zero value in clinical practice.

You will gain very little from the MBA without first having business experience (which may very well mean a number of years working as a practicing physician).

If your plan is to maybe use it after retiring, that means getting a degree 10-30 years in advance of putting it to use, which is a clear waste of time.

On the other hand, you won’t have time for aways, which means you won’t match.... so maybe you will put the MBA to use in a nonclinical career after all.

 

[ed*26]

Wow, a lot of hate for the dual-degree programs here.

OP, it sounds like doing the MBA would be a poor decision, but talk to upperclassmen going into ortho or who are doing the MBA program to get more information. It seems like poor planning to block up the summer before you apply for any specialty, much less the super competitive ones, so maybe there are more options. I know that people who do a research year at my school will regularly do sub-Is/aways during ~April of the research year and can practically get any spot they want.

An MBA may be a good idea if you have a strong interest in administration or entrepreneurship and want to get that ball rolling. Some trainees have entrepreneurship careers on the side (e.g. involved in engineering and are looking to patent/sell or get venture financing), and there are some limited opportunities that may be more open to you if you have the degree (consulting apprenticeships, or Duke's Management and Leadership residency pathway which requires an MBA or MHA comes to mind), but the vast majority of trainees with an interest in business will do just fine learning it on the side. Lots of residencies have opportunities to get a dual degree or do an elective/concentration, and there are also one-year fellowships after training. Generally it's going to be much easier to manage a dual degree when you're a medical school and can set you on a certain path, but if you have to pay for it and it gets in the way of your career then it's not worth it.

 

[afib123]

Like others have said, aways essential for match. I think the concept of aways is personally kind of pointless 1) expecting students to excel in non-core clerkships such as surgical subspecialties is unreasonable. The only thing they seem to exist for is to see whether you are a good fit for the program but in that case every single speciality students need to be doing it not just surgical subs 2) very expensive
But having said, they are part of the game of competition

 

[Disciple of Sattar]

No idea. Just thought it'd be neat to have. Maybe going into business after retiring from medicine.

I'm not going to lie, this is funny.

By all means, tank your shot at ortho on a whim.