No Residency --> Clinical Pharmacy position

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Sincerely Sapphire

Sincerely Sapphire

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Hey,

I'm a 3pd interested in oncology. Looking on the forum, lots of people mention how people get jobs in clinical positions without residencies. I was wondering, what kind of things do those people have that make them acceptable for a clinical position right after Graduation. Are they all RhoChi with 4 years of research under their belt with killer connections lol Or are they the picture of the average pharmacy student that's involved with decent grades who just applied for the position etc. I feel like i'm in the middle of these extremes.
At this point I'm going to apply for PGY1 and Clinical positions and see whichever one works out first. But i was wondering if anyone knew people and had specific anecdotes of how these students Made it.
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I have known of people getting Am Care sort of positions (anticoag) directly upon graduation. I can’t think of anyone I know of getting classic “clinical” positions directly upon graduation. I would tend to think oncology positions would be even more rare. I think any place that doesn’t require residency for oncology positions will at least require you to staff for a few years first. Maybe focus on smaller hospitals in smaller locations.
 
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Sincerely Sapphire said:
Hey,

I'm a rising 3pd interested in oncology. Looking on the forum, lots of people mention how people get jobs in clinical positions without residencies. I was wondering, what kind of things do those people have that make them acceptable for a clinical position right after Graduation. Are they all RhoChi with 4 years of research under their belt with killer connections lol Or are they the picture of the average pharmacy student that's involved with decent grades who just applied for the position etc. I feel like i'm in the middle of these extremes.
At this point I'm going to apply for PGY1 and Clinical positions and see whichever one works out first. But i was wondering if anyone knew people and had specific anecdotes of how these students Made it.
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What is RhoChi? Lol...these are useless ,in my opinion when it comes to real life.
 
UGAZ said:
What is RhoChi? Lol...these are useless ,in my opinion when it comes to real life.
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Rho Chi is pharmacy's honor society. To become a clinical pharmacist without a residency you might read the post by an army pharmacist who was a retailer then switched to the army and got BCPP, getting prescriber privileges. Ask yourself what a clinical pharmacist is first though: direct patient care, prescriptive authority, direct input into drug use decisions i.e formulary, P and T.
 
Experience can also come from wise choices of rotations.

Also, many pharmacists I know stepped into their current roles by working through temp agencies as contingent pharmacists to gain experience and knowledge, in the hopes of either getting hired on permanently or getting hired on elsewhere with their new experience.
 
Sincerely Sapphire said:
I was wondering, what kind of things do those people have that make them acceptable for a clinical position right after Graduation.
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Keep in mind that it's hip and trendy nowadays to list every pharmacist position as "clinical pharmacist." You have to look at what those people are doing on a day-to-day basis.

When you do, you'll realize that a pure clinical position is highly unlikely straight out of school. When I was a P3/P4, I also pondered how to immediately get a clinical position. However, now that I am a few years into practice, I realize how silly that idea was. There may be exceptions here and there, but to be frank, school doesn't adequately prepare you to be a clinical pharmacist, especially in a specialty area. You need experience.

How you go about getting that experience is up to you. The most obvious choice is to do a residency, but as some of the others above have suggested, you could also try to get your foot in the door and work your way up.
 
All the oncology pharmacists I know (about a handful) completed 2 years of residency. Oncology is a popular pharmacist specialty, you would have quite the uphill battle trying to land a clinical oncology pharmacist gig out of school. You'll be competing against highly trained and experienced pharmacists, who have spent at least 2 years beyond pharmacy school training and working with other pharmacists already established in the field, publishing articles, presenting at conferences, gaining specific oncology hands-on experience, etc. There is only so much you can do while in pharmacy school to make yourself stand out, and you aren't going to be able to match the skill and experience of a PGY2 residency graduate.

Going the rural/underserved route is one way to avoid residency, but you will likely have to work more as a general clinical pharmacist for a few years before you are able to work your way into specializing in oncology specifically (i.e. rural hospitals tend to have a more desperate need for pharmacy managers and directors, or pharmacists that can rotate throughout the entire hospital, and do a little bit of everything; it's a luxury to have a pharmacist dedicated to one service).

Military is another way to go, but there are a lot of risks and no guarantees that you will be able to specialize in oncology or even be able to work primarily as a clinical pharmacist. One thing to keep in mind is that the Armed Forces tends to hire civilian pharmacists for clinical pharmacist positions, and tries to push uniformed pharmacists into leadership/admin positions. From my limited understanding of differences among branches (take with several grains of salt), Army offers the best chances of being able to do a PGY2 in oncology and later work as an oncology pharmacist, relative to Navy and Air Force. PHS/Coast Guard doesn't have its own PGY2 Oncology program and doesn't routinely approve long-term training for outside PGY2 residencies, but you can get oncology experience at certain duty stations and sit for the BCOP after 4 years of working. FMC Butner is one of the more well-known duty stations for gaining oncology experience specifically.
 
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Next up: how does someone get to be an oncology clinical pharmacy specialist without going to pharmacy school?

People are always looking for the easy way out. Truth is, if someone doesn't have residency, then they have the right connections and have been really lucky to get "residency-equivalent experience".
 
I want to echo some of the above posters and ask, if I offered you a clinical spec. Oncology position, would you really want to take It, or are you just chasing the prestige?

As a staff pharmacist I would have to say that I would probably decline the opportunity even if it was offered to me, and colloquially, many of my clin. spec friends are burnt out of their jobs and some are even envious of my lowly staffing job. Their jobs are more stressful, they take their work home, and only make about 10k more than me.....
 
medst09 said:
We were told at school when we started our P1 than we can become a member of Rho Chi after P1 if we have a goog GPA, and that is also honor.
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blah - I was in Rho Chi - basically all it means is that you were able to get a good GPA one year or maybe even only one semester - not that big of a deal in the whole scheme of things. I actually reviewed a resume the other day that the person listed they were a member of Rho Chi in 1988 - they seriously kept it on their CV for 30 years
 
bacillus1 said:
Next up: how does someone get to be an oncology clinical pharmacy specialist without going to pharmacy school?

People are always looking for the easy way out. Truth is, if someone doesn't have residency, then they have the right connections and have been really lucky to get "residency-equivalent experience".
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Right?

OP - what could you have on your resume to apply for any specialty position right upon graduation? Unless you've been an intern at an oncology center all during school and possibly before, the answer is nothing. General staffing, maybe depending on how saturated your geography is. Specialty? Not going to happen. BCOP has a barely higher than half passing rate - that is (theoretically) experienced oncology pharmacists taking the exam - it's a very tough specialty.

Do your time - work experience or residency. People are scrambling for PT retail jobs in certain markets.
 
There are very few pure clinical positions available, and they will go to someone with a residency. (There are lots of residency trained pharmacists who can not find a pure clinical position.) Most clinical positions are hybrid staffing/clinical. As others have said, your best bet will be to get a job in a rural area in the middle of nowhere. You will learn a lot, because you will be doing everything. Get good experience, and you can probably be able to get a hybrid staffing/clinical position. As for being a chemo pharmacist, you aren't going to get that job without a residency--too many chemo residency trained pharmacists who can't get a job in chemo, and it's a very specialized field. Now in your rural position where you are doing everything you will likely be doing chemo as well, but not enough that you would be able to get a chemo pharmacist position.
 
bacillus1 said:
Next up: how does someone get to be an oncology clinical pharmacy specialist without going to pharmacy school?
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My friend got a job in a large system in a very saturated area. Her title is oncology specialist and she didn't do residency. Sometimes it's luck and you just have to be there at the right time.
 
Dred Pirate said:
I actually reviewed a resume the other day that the person listed they were a member of Rho Chi in 1988 - they seriously kept it on their CV for 30 years
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I don't typically list my Rho Chi membership on my CV, but if it were for an academic position I probably would, regardless of how long ago it was. It is a curriculum vitae afterall.
 
Dred Pirate said:
blah - I was in Rho Chi - basically all it means is that you were able to get a good GPA one year or maybe even only one semester - not that big of a deal in the whole scheme of things. I actually reviewed a resume the other day that the person listed they were a member of Rho Chi in 1988 - they seriously kept it on their CV for 30 years
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Based on my experience, being in a frat such as PDC or kappa psi gives you much better chance of being hired. Although it wasn't a clinical position, my former boss who was a member of PDC hired based on the fact that applicants were current or former members of PDC. Not sure if that's even legal but haha
 
VictorOfHungerGames said:
Based on my experience, being in a frat such as PDC or kappa psi gives you much better chance of being hired. Although it wasn't a clinical position, my former boss who was a member of PDC hired based on the fact that applicants were current or former members of PDC. Not sure if that's even legal but haha
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I honestly have never seen that happen - I am PDC - but never put it on a single resume
 
for those of you who work in hospitals: isn't it better that you "know enough of your stuff" that you can rotate between different departments, instead of being confined in the one that you specialize in? I don't know if it is a common thing for hospital pharmacists to rotate or not.

I know it takes dedication and sacrifice to go through two years of residency and whatever training there is, but wouldn't your job get repetitive and boring quickly if you just do the same thing year after year?
 
Sabril said:
for those of you who work in hospitals: isn't it better that you "know enough of your stuff" that you can rotate between different departments, instead of being confined in the one that you specialize in? I don't know if it is a common thing for hospital pharmacists to rotate or not.

I know it takes dedication and sacrifice to go through two years of residency and whatever training there is, but wouldn't your job get repetitive and boring quickly if you just do the same thing year after year?
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I felt this way when I was rotating through different shifts. I liked get exposure to different services and felt it help me grow while keeping work fresh. Sometimes you eventually find something that just clicks and you know you want to work in that field. Plus there's something to be said about the satisfaction of being really great at your job.
 
Sabril said:
for those of you who work in hospitals: isn't it better that you "know enough of your stuff" that you can rotate between different departments, instead of being confined in the one that you specialize in? I don't know if it is a common thing for hospital pharmacists to rotate or not.

I know it takes dedication and sacrifice to go through two years of residency and whatever training there is, but wouldn't your job get repetitive and boring quickly if you just do the same thing year after year?
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varies drastically by hospital - usually - the larger the hospital (think large academic medical center) you are more likely to be either specialized in one clinical area or "in the basement" checking stock. At my hospital we are blended - personally I like to have a little more flexibility and be able to cover different areas - I think it makes me more marketable. I would specifically choose ICU if at all possible because (falsely) people often thing if you can do ICU you can do anything (which is far from the truth)
 
The oncology pharmacist I knew graduated in 2004/2006ish, he did not have any residency training. He worked as a clinical pharmacist right after graduation, and was offered the oncology pharmacist position by the same hospital in 2016. I'm not sure how he did it. I had connections for my clinical pharmacist position (2016) right after my graduation, and it was in a remote area. Then I applied to 60+ jobs before I landed a random specialized pharmacist position that otherwise would have required a PGY2. There was another girl graduated in 2015 became a clinical pharmacist after graduation. She told me that she focused on inpatient rotations on her last year of pharmacy school. Best of luck!
 
Melazine said:
The oncology pharmacist I knew graduated in 2004/2006ish, he did not have any residency training. He worked as a clinical pharmacist right after graduation, and was offered the oncology pharmacist position by the same hospital in 2016. I'm not sure how he did it. I had connections for my clinical pharmacist position (2016) right after my graduation, and it was in a remote area. Then I applied to 60+ jobs before I landed a random specialized pharmacist position that otherwise would have required a PGY2. There was another girl graduated in 2015 became a clinical pharmacist after graduation. She told me that she focused on inpatient rotations on her last year of pharmacy school. Best of luck!
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our oncologist pharmacist graduated around 2010 - started on the onc team, and is now our clin spec - no residency - just hard work and independent study, (got the job around 2014 or so)
 
gwarm01 said:
I felt this way when I was rotating through different shifts. I liked get exposure to different services and felt it help me grow while keeping work fresh. Sometimes you eventually find something that just clicks and you know you want to work in that field. Plus there's something to be said about the satisfaction of being really great at your job.
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Dred Pirate said:
varies drastically by hospital - usually - the larger the hospital (think large academic medical center) you are more likely to be either specialized in one clinical area or "in the basement" checking stock. At my hospital we are blended - personally I like to have a little more flexibility and be able to cover different areas - I think it makes me more marketable. I would specifically choose ICU if at all possible because (falsely) people often thing if you can do ICU you can do anything (which is far from the truth)
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Thanks. I know it varies but would you say generally being out on the floor enables you to get more done without bumping heads with the people in the basement? Seemed like a big motivator for people to be out.
 
Sabril said:
Thanks. I know it varies but would you say generally being out on the floor enables you to get more done without bumping heads with the people in the basement? Seemed like a big motivator for people to be out.
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not necessarily - bs can happen any where - you work up stairs you get accused of not doing enough orders, you work downstairs you get accused of not knowing anything clinical - hence why I hate the upstairs/downstairs model.

Just keep your nose to the grind, don't feed into any gossiping and you will be OK - anytime you have a group of 100+ people you are gonna have to learn how to balance personalities.
 
Sabril said:
Thanks. I know it varies but would you say generally being out on the floor enables you to get more done without bumping heads with the people in the basement? Seemed like a big motivator for people to be out.
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It depends on the day, the people, and what you're trying to receive. We had two clinical shifts that used computers in the central pharmacy, and I would often find myself feeling compelled to help check batch and help out with other things. We eventually moved those positions to a spot on the floor, where I would often find myself without much to do and thinking I would be more useful helping check batch.
 
Dred Pirate said:
Just keep your nose to the grind, don't feed into any gossiping and you will be OK - anytime you have a group of 100+ people you are gonna have to learn how to balance personalities.
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I think the same thing can be said for any groups larger than perhaps 5 😉
 
Thank you all for all the examples. I would never insinuate that i don't want to work hard for what I want because anyone who know's me knows that is not true. I was just curious as to how some people found a loophole around residency. Lots of right place right time, or wait patiently scenarios.
 
Sincerely Sapphire said:
Thank you all for all the examples. I would never insinuate that i don't want to work hard for what I want because anyone who know's me knows that is not true. I was just curious as to how some people found a loophole around residency. Lots of right place right time, or wait patiently scenarios.
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best of luck. My friend has never had any residency, worked for chain for a couple years, worked for a small hospital a couple years, and one day got a full time position at a VA on the other side of the country. And that VA always had plenty of past residents fighting for a job.

Whenever I tell that story, people would think I advocate not doing anything and wait for opportunities to land in your lap. What I mean is, there seems to be no rhyme or reason for this sort of thing. It's not that you do X then you will get Y. I guess the only true reward you can get out of hard work is just... working hard and you that you did it to better yourself.
 
Fun fact, my first job out of residency was an oncology specialist position. No joke, I got hired for a blended clinical/staffing position in a semi-rural area and got dumped into our cancer center to cover maternity leave.

My sole qualification and the justification for my boss to do that? I finished a residency and did a TWO WEEK ROTATION in oncology AT THE BEGINNING of my residency.

Yep, 14 months after last looking at a chemo order, I got two weeks to train up and viola...I became an onc spec.

Talk about a learning curve as steep as Everest.

So yes, sometimes luck, a lot of times timing.


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Sincerely Sapphire said:
Hey,

I'm a 3pd interested in oncology. Looking on the forum, lots of people mention how people get jobs in clinical positions without residencies. I was wondering, what kind of things do those people have that make them acceptable for a clinical position right after Graduation. Are they all RhoChi with 4 years of research under their belt with killer connections lol Or are they the picture of the average pharmacy student that's involved with decent grades who just applied for the position etc. I feel like i'm in the middle of these extremes.
At this point I'm going to apply for PGY1 and Clinical positions and see whichever one works out first. But i was wondering if anyone knew people and had specific anecdotes of how these students Made it.
Click to expand...


Possible, but very unlikely. I would aim for hospital staffing, if even part time, prn. Those are pretty much all hybrid now anyway. A straight clinical position, even at a small hospital, will not be patient for you to learn the ropes. They want someone that knows more than they do.
 
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