Non-Clinical Careers

[JamesGleaven]

What kind of. good Non-Clinical Careers are out there?

I'm an AMG from a non-elite US medical School, I'd say about mid-tier. I owe about 250K in student loans. Going back to school is just not an option. I've finished all my federal loans so the only option would be private loans and those come at higher rates and would need a co-signer. I am from a moderate, single mother, immigrant family. I can't in good conscience put a co-sign on anybody.

What kind of careers are available so I can live the American Dream? No debt, kids, cars a family, a house occasional vacations etc? Some of these non clinical jobs honestly seem like rat race/hampster wheel jobs. I would make money but would never get ahead. What kinna options do I have folks?

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[NotAProgDirector]

The answer, unfortunately, is that your options are very limited. I've commented on your past threads - if I remember correctly you graduated from a US MD school but had trouble with the CS exam and some other professionalism issues. You tried to match but were unable to do so -- although if you were able to get any clinical training that would be a real plus.

There are threads here, and websites, discussing physician non-clinical careers. There's no easy path - you need to be creative and see what you can do.

People often mention "consulting" -- that is usually either skill based (and you don't have any particular skills that I know of), or pedigree based (and that's not you also). I doubt you can get a consulting job, but you can certainly try.

You can look at this thread: Considering leaving medicine, please help? The user thxleave talks about working for a state insurance commission, reviewing insurance decisions. Something like that might be possible.

This site might be of help: DOC - Innovative healthcare careers for doctors and scientists

The bottom line is that you need to leverage your skills, whatever they are. You're unlikely to get a salary anywhere near what you'd make as a clinician, but right now I assume you've got no better options. Being 6 years out isn't going to help, either -- all of this should have been done years ago.

 

[pazzer2]

I've been working as an MD in pharma for 20+ years. There are certainly many non-clinical careers for MDs. But almost all of them involve doing a residency (and fellowship) +/- an advanced degree like MPH/PhD.

Have you considered doing residency outside of the US? You could probably get some pharma jobs at smaller companies with foreign residency training. But you wouldn't be able to practice in US. The hottest areas in pharma are oncology and immunology. Other option: Have you considered working at FDA? Sometimes the safety or quality divisions might take someone who is not residency trained.

Can you provide more details on why you didn't match? You'll need to explain in your interviews why you didn't do a residency.

 

[Goro]

Teaching
Lab tech
EMT
Lab mgr
Research tech

 

[mrbreakfast]

What have you been doing since graduation? Have you been working in the medical field or in another technical field? Gotten additional training?

If you've been out of the medical world for six years, I'm not sure what kind of mileage you'll get out of your MD, if any at all. I assume you've at least been working for this period of time, but any potential employer - medical or not - is going to be looking closely at that. And any employer who'd consider hiring you on the basis of your MD is likely first going to want to know the specifics of why you didn't match.

 

[Lawpy]

Switch to programming/computer science

 

[JamesGleaven]

Teaching
Lab tech
EMT
Lab mgr
Research tech

The American Dream seems to not be possible with these jobs. The math doesn't add up. No disrespect to the people that do these jobs but I don't see a way out of debt with these careers? Am I wrong on that or what?

 

[JamesGleaven]

The answer, unfortunately, is that your options are very limited. I've commented on your past threads - if I remember correctly you graduated from a US MD school but had trouble with the CS exam and some other professionalism issues. You tried to match but were unable to do so -- although if you were able to get any clinical training that would be a real plus.

There are threads here, and websites, discussing physician non-clinical careers. There's no easy path - you need to be creative and see what you can do.

People often mention "consulting" -- that is usually either skill based (and you don't have any particular skills that I know of), or pedigree based (and that's not you also). I doubt you can get a consulting job, but you can certainly try.

You can look at this thread: Considering leaving medicine, please help? The user thxleave talks about working for a state insurance commission, reviewing insurance decisions. Something like that might be possible.

This site might be of help: DOC - Innovative healthcare careers for doctors and scientists

The bottom line is that you need to leverage your skills, whatever they are. You're unlikely to get a salary anywhere near what you'd make as a clinician, but right now I assume you've got no better options. Being 6 years out isn't going to help, either -- all of this should have been done years ago.

Yes thanks for commenting. I just don't want to accept any career that will have me running an infinite rat race and will leave me with no possibility for financial freedom. That would just be a terrible regretful way to live.

 

[JamesGleaven]

I'll just try and keep trying to match.. I think there is someone out there that can forgive so I can get a shot. I don't want to live of regret. Further, a lot of options I see are silent on the matter that looms in-between the lines; That these jobs don't allow for financial thriving. The math just doesn't add up. I'll never pay off my debts with these jobs. I'll never be financially solvent enough to have a wife, 3 kids, a home, saving, retirement, vacations etc if I go down most of these suggested paths. Unless I shouldn't have that stuff. I'm an immigrant. My parents didn't come from the the trenches just for their kids to live life on a hamster wheel.

 

[mrbreakfast]

Honestly, if I were you I'd be looking at non-medical jobs that offer loan forgiveness. Nonprofits, govt work, etc. Something that will let you climb the ranks and make a decent living. If you were smart enough to get into medical school, you'll do well elsewhere.

You're not going to walk into a six-figure job in any field. It's just not going to happen. And to be brutally honest, if you haven't matched in six years, it's not going to happen either. You might as well start playing the lottery.

Plenty of people live the American dream without being physicians. You can do the same.

 

[Goro]

I'll just try and keep trying to match.. I think there is someone out there that can forgive so I can get a shot. I don't want to live of regret. Further, a lot of options I see are silent on the matter that looms in-between the lines; That these jobs don't allow for financial thriving. The math just doesn't add up. I'll never pay off my debts with these jobs. I'll never be financially solvent enough to have a wife, 3 kids, a home, saving, retirement, vacations etc if I go down most of these suggested paths. Unless I shouldn't have that stuff. I'm an immigrant. My parents didn't come from the the trenches just for their kids to live life on a hamster wheel.

I suggest you lose that attitude right away. Beggars can't be choosy

 

[0ncogene]

I'll just try and keep trying to match.. I think there is someone out there that can forgive so I can get a shot. I don't want to live of regret. Further, a lot of options I see are silent on the matter that looms in-between the lines; That these jobs don't allow for financial thriving. The math just doesn't add up. I'll never pay off my debts with these jobs. I'll never be financially solvent enough to have a wife, 3 kids, a home, saving, retirement, vacations etc if I go down most of these suggested paths. Unless I shouldn't have that stuff. I'm an immigrant. My parents didn't come from the the trenches just for their kids to live life on a hamster wheel.

With regards to your debts, there are loan forgiveness programs available. I suggest you browse the WCI forum and/or listen to WCI podcast to help you create a financial plan to tackle this.

 

[JamesGleaven]

I suggest you lose that attitude right away. Beggars can't be choosy

1) This is what you call an attitude? Well it staying
2) I see @Goro saying the quiet parts out loud..

And here is the part where Goro makes all these deep insightful comments about me and how it portends to my medical school problems. I guess. It's really not that deep. I can't be arguing with avatars behind screens.

I'm just not accepting any career that subjects me a subsistence lifestyle. And I'll die on that hill. Yeah I will be "choosey." An internet avatar won't get me to do any different.

And Goro you seem like a sweet man. If I met you I'd probably likely. My advice, my sweet friend, no need to be giving giving me "paternalistic talks" behind an avatar. Its unbecoming of you. Just suggest a career that allows me to thrive financially and not die with debt and we'll be good, my sweet friend.

 

[Redpancreas]

What kind of. good Non-Clinical Careers are out there?

I'm an AMG from a non-elite US medical School, I'd say about mid-tier. I owe about 250K in student loans. Going back to school is just not an option. I've finished all my federal loans so the only option would be private loans and those come at higher rates and would need a co-signer. I am from a moderate, single mother, immigrant family. I can't in good conscience put a co-sign on anybody.

What kind of careers are available so I can live the American Dream? No debt, kids, cars a family, a house occasional vacations etc? Some of these non clinical jobs honestly seem like rat race/hampster wheel jobs. I would make money but would never get ahead. What kinna options do I have folks?

I don't know what you mean per se about the "American Dream" but if you can not salvage a career in medicine, just live modestly and just do what you enjoy doing whether it's profitable or not. America is a country that allows you to live freely in comfort even with a modest salary in the right locations. Did your parents sacrifice all this for you to be wealthy or for you to be happy? There's far more valuable things you can pass down to your kids than money.

 

[lumya]

As many people have pointed out, there are few careers as lucrative as medicine and certainly very few that would allow you to live comfortably and pay off 250k in debt. mrbreakfast mentioned loan forgiveness public service programs, which might be your best option to cut down your debt. Most people on loan forgiveness do about 10 years of income-based repayment, and then get it forgiven. Most of these aren't the highest paying, but I really don't see many other options for paying off your loans. I personally would take this option to try to wipe the debt as much as I can, because I would rather run the hamster wheel for 10 years than have that amount hanging over my head the rest of my life.

For career options, I guess you can try tech or consulting. Although most people I know who are in those fields with MDs have finished their residencies and are usually licensed and practiced for some period of time to be able to offer their expertise to these companies. I have friends in tech who make more than I will (thinking of peds), but they had some rough rough starting years where they were working long hours for low-pay and no respect, which sounds like something you won't tolerate.

There's really no magical field where you can just enter and start making 6 figures immediately, but people have mentioned viable options to start to build a career.

I wish you luck if you keep on applying. SOAP data isn't out yet, but there are thousands of students who didn't match last year/this year. Residencies know they're in short supply, so I'm not sure what you can do, or offer, that some other new graduate can't.

 

[JamesGleaven]

As many people have pointed out, there are few careers as lucrative as medicine and certainly very few that would allow you to live comfortably and pay off 250k in debt. mrbreakfast mentioned loan forgiveness public service programs, which might be your best option to cut down your debt. Most people on loan forgiveness do about 10 years of income-based repayment, and then get it forgiven. Most of these aren't the highest paying, but I really don't see many other options for paying off your loans. I personally would take this option to try to wipe the debt as much as I can, because I would rather run the hamster wheel for 10 years than have that amount hanging over my head the rest of my life.

For career options, I guess you can try tech or consulting. Although most people I know who are in those fields with MDs have finished their residencies and are usually licensed and practiced for some period of time to be able to offer their expertise to these companies. I have friends in tech who make more than I will (thinking of peds), but they had some rough rough starting years where they were working long hours for low-pay and no respect, which sounds like something you won't tolerate.

There's really no magical field where you can just enter and start making 6 figures immediately, but people have mentioned viable options to start to build a career.

I wish you luck if you keep on applying. SOAP data isn't out yet, but there are thousands of students who didn't match last year/this year. Residencies know they're in short supply, so I'm not sure what you can do, or offer, that some other new graduate can't.

The Only Careers that have been mentioned here are: Consulting and Pharma (which other posters and you admitted are lucrative but hard to get), Teaching, Lab tech, EMT, Lab mgr, Research tech mentioned by my very sweet friend @Goro but then my sweet friend said the quiet parts out loud with his "beggars can't be choosers" line, Non-Profit work and Government work. And Loan Forgiveness only comes with some of these jobs and that's if you qualify.

And who said I was against tech? I'd do tech as long as a don't have to go back to school. It's so funny when I ask for people willing to co-sign on a potential loan i would take out, I don't get any takers.

I'll look into some of that government work though. Looks interesting.

 

[JamesGleaven]

I don't know what you mean per se about the "American Dream" but if you can not salvage a career in medicine, just live modestly and just do what you enjoy doing whether it's profitable or not. America is a country that allows you to live freely in comfort even with a modest salary in the right locations. Did your parents sacrifice all this for you to be wealthy or for you to be happy? There's far more valuable things you can pass down to your kids than money.

"Live freely" even with debt that you're not likely to pay off? Freedom with debt that can't be absolved by bankruptcy courts? They want me to be happy but how does one achieve happiness with that kind of debt load hanging over your head? Or shall I pretend that the debt isn't there and not pay it. Especially when my parents don't owe a dime to anyone? They went to school in the days of generous pell grants and low cost school so they are good.

Not sure my parents sacrificed for that @Redpancreas

 

[lumya]

The Only Careers that have been mentioned here are: Consulting and Pharma (which other posters and you admitted are lucrative but hard to get), Teaching, Lab tech, EMT, Lab mgr, Research tech mentioned by my very sweet friend @Goro but then my sweet friend said the quiet parts out loud with his "beggars can't be choosers" line, Non-Profit work and Government work. And Loan Forgiveness only comes with some of these jobs and that's if you qualify.

And who said I was against tech? I'd do tech as long as a don't have to go back to school. It's so funny when I ask for people willing to co-sign on a potential loan i would take out, I don't get any takers.

I'll look into some of that government work though. Looks interesting.

The public service loan forgiveness qualifies for any not-for-profit organization (which includes most hospitals), government, and charitable organizations. If you’ve been employed full time at any of these places since you graduated and you’ve been making payments, you might have been chipping away at the qualifications already. Not for profit status covers a ton of companies (justified or not).

Coding doesn’t need any sort of formal education. A lot of coders I know are self taught. But there’s also a huge bottleneck where it takes awhile for them to break through to actually make a decent living. It requires that “beggars can’t be choosers” mentality to work your way up the chain.

You’ve ragged on @Goro but statistically he’s not wrong. You’re in a very deep hole and better to start digging instead of looking for a hidden ladder. There is no career anyone can mention that isn’t going to be crappy in the beginning until you work your way up. Teaching, EMT, lab manager, research tech aren’t going to give you that 100k starting salary but many are with not for profits (pay down loans) and may open doors with connections you meet along the way. I was a research lab manager making less than 30k but eventually found a consulting company that paid me double that to be an analyst and then doubled again later to be a manager. It took me over 6 years to gain that experience (and then I somehow chose to get paid negative money to go to med school), and the first couple were ROUGH. The comment of “beggars can’t be choosers” isn’t a dismissive paternalistic comment, but rather you have to get started to get anywhere substantial.

 

[Goro]

1) This is what you call an attitude? Well it staying
2) I see @Goro saying the quiet parts out loud..

And here is the part where Goro makes all these deep insightful comments about me and how it portends to my medical school problems. I guess. It's really not that deep. I can't be arguing with avatars behind screens.

I'm just not accepting any career that subjects me a subsistence lifestyle. And I'll die on that hill. Yeah I will be "choosey." An internet avatar won't get me to do any different.

And Goro you seem like a sweet man. If I met you I'd probably likely. My advice, my sweet friend, no need to be giving giving me "paternalistic talks" behind an avatar. Its unbecoming of you. Just suggest a career that allows me to thrive financially and not die with debt and we'll be good, my sweet friend.

And I think that were done here. Activating Ignore function.

 

[JamesGleaven]

And I think that were done here. Activating Ignore function.

How sweet of you to drop some sweet knowledge on us @Goro
It seem like everything you do is sweet (tough talking, paternalistic and condescending comments not withstanding)

Anyways, Have a sweet day, my sweet friend.

 

[thumbz]

Are you willing to do any sort of work, or expecting to get handed a $200k+/yr job based on your current abilities? If you are willing to put in some work, how much? 6 months? A year? 4 years?

This is a serious question as it'll dictate what options are actually open to you. From reading NotaProg's brief summary of your current situation I would say you have no options open to you currently that'll pay 6 figures, not require any additional work on your part, be something you would consider (so nothing entry level) and don't involve a Powerball ticket.

I'll just try and keep trying to match.. I think there is someone out there that can forgive so I can get a shot. I don't want to live of regret. Further, a lot of options I see are silent on the matter that looms in-between the lines; That these jobs don't allow for financial thriving. The math just doesn't add up. I'll never pay off my debts with these jobs. I'll never be financially solvent enough to have a wife, 3 kids, a home, saving, retirement, vacations etc if I go down most of these suggested paths. Unless I shouldn't have that stuff. I'm an immigrant. My parents didn't come from the the trenches just for their kids to live life on a hamster wheel.

Maybe your role in your story is wrong - maybe you need to live on the hamster wheel so your kids don't have to?

 

[JamesGleaven]

Are you willing to do any sort of work, or expecting to get handed a $200k+/yr job based on your current abilities? If you are willing to put in some work, how much? 6 months? A year? 4 years?

This is a serious question as it'll dictate what options are actually open to you. From reading NotaProg's brief summary of your current situation I would say you have no options open to you currently that'll pay 6 figures, not require any additional work on your part, be something you would consider (so nothing entry level) and don't involve a Powerball ticket.



Maybe your role in your story is wrong - maybe you need to live on the hamster wheel so your kids don't have to?

@thumbz You're probably a nice guy. You probably came to this thread to sincerely give advice. But for you to even think and yet further write that means that while probably we are both American (most likely) and earned out M.D's, our lived experiences are probably too far apart to even relate on anything.

As a 1st generation Immigrant, I've always been charged with "seeing" things they other folks way. After all that they are the ones in charge, the write the rules etc. If you want to win, you must adapt to how they do it..

But it's interesting to stop and note... Despite me killing myself to see thing their way.. How many of THEM are even spending even 2 seconds to see things OUR way??.. The Honest to God Truth is that there is isn't that many and your quote just proves that.. It's sad but what can one do? I just keep going forward.

 

[thumbz]

Whoa doggy, I had some time so I went back to your post history. I actually remember reading about your situation back in 2017! I am truly sad to see that the last 5 years haven't gotten you anywhere.

Reading your post history and this thread, especially this:

@thumbz

But it's interesting to stop and note... Despite me killing myself to see thing their way.. How many of THEM are even spending even 2 seconds to see things OUR way??.. The Honest to God Truth is that there is isn't that many and your quote just proves that.. It's sad but what can one do? I just keep going forward.

I know you mentioned talking to a doctor previously about talking to yourself - have you worked with a psychologist or psychiatrist since? In this thread and all of your previous threads you've managed to alienate or attack almost every poster to the point people are rooting for you to fail rather than succeed. I suspect this will continue to be your largest single problem for the remainder of your life.

And I get it. I'm a faceless person behind an avatar. Who doesn't know you or your situation. Maybe you're the world's best troll, maybe you come across differently on a forum than you do in real life. I don't know, but a lot of the challenges you face may come from how you interact with others. Just food for thought. I do wish you the best of luck and I hope you find something you can excel at to find your version of the American Dream.

 

[JamesGleaven]

people are rooting for you to fail rather than succeed.

Rooting for me to fail? What a life. I hope those that are wishing me to lose, win in all their endeavors. I also hope

I know you mentioned talking to a doctor previously about talking to yourself - have you worked with a psychologist or psychiatrist since?

Yes. Why? Is there something I am missing? You're about to make a point with that no?

 

[gyngyn]

It does not appear that any further good can come of this thread.
Closing.