Non-competitive Specialties that pay relatively high

[jhanago]

This isn't a thread for which specialty is more lucrative, or which pays the highest, or which is the hardest to get into..

Rather, I want to know which specialties pay relatively high but are still generally possible to get into. We all know ROAD(E) pays high but what specialties have the same salary but aren't as hard to get into?


I searched but kept getting "most competitive specialties" type threads

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[somepremedkid]

This isn't a thread for which specialty is more lucrative, or which pays the highest, or which is the hardest to get into..

Rather, I want to know which specialties pay relatively high but are still generally possible to get into. We all know ROAD(E) pays high but what specialties have the same salary but aren't as hard to get into?


I searched but kept getting "most competitive specialties" type threads

Perhaps neurology

 

[LuciusVorenus]

This isn't a thread for which specialty is more lucrative, or which pays the highest, or which is the hardest to get into..

Rather, I want to know which specialties pay relatively high but are still generally possible to get into. We all know ROAD(E) pays high but what specialties have the same salary but aren't as hard to get into?


I searched but kept getting "most competitive specialties" type threads

There's no such thing, really. There are "relatively" easy specialties to get into that pay a lot, but none that are as competitive as FM and pay like Derm. For example, General Surgery is, by comparison to other surgical specialties like Neuro and Ortho, easier to get into but still pays really well, but not nearly as much as Neuro or Ortho. Getting into IM and then doing a fellowship in something like Oncology is easier than doing Derm and it still pays well, but not nearly as much as Derm.

 

[jhanago]

There's no such thing, really. There are "relatively" easy specialties to get into that pay a lot, but none that are as competitive as FM and pay like Derm. For example, General Surgery is by comparison to other surgical specialties like Neuro and Ortho easier to get into but still pays really well, but not as much as Neuro or Ortho. Getting into IM and then doing a fellowship in something like Oncology is easier than doing Derm and it still pays well, but not as much as Derm.

Thanks.. Im looking for answers like these

Not necessarily paying AS MUCH as Ortho, but just a specialty that doesnt pay as low as FM..

Something that payss 2-300k average/above average

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Thanks.. Im looking for answers like these

Not necessarily paying AS MUCH as Ortho, but just a specialty that doesnt pay as low as FM..

Something that pays 2-300k average/above average

FM, IM, and Peds are kind of outliers, which is why there's such a shortage. I don't think any other specialty pays nearly as little as those three do. Generally, you could say there are three levels of specialties when it comes to pay/competitiveness. The least competitive pay from around 120K-200K (IM, FM, Peds), the moderate ones (General Surgery, Oncology, etc) pay around 200K-350K, and the extremely competitive ones (Plastics, Derm, Ortho, Neuro) pay from 350-500K. It's usually safe to assume that the higher the pay for the specialty, the more competitive that specialty is with regards to STEP scores, percent published, etc.

 

[jhanago]

Cool f****n beans.

So are these incomes pre/post tax? Like are oncologists netting 200k or are they Gross'ing 200k and then taking home 120k after taxes?

Im just curious because people always tell me they want to be a Neurosurgeon, ortho, etc because of the pay but they arent dedicated enough to be top med students so they always want to know easier specialties that pay well too.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Cool f****n beans.

So are these incomes pre/post tax? Like are oncologists netting 200k or are they Gross'ing 200k and then taking home 120k after taxes?

Those are before taxes.

If you're interested, here is a survey of physician salaries:
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Unfortunately a lot of these surveys tend to vary greatly in their results because none of them are as in-depth/detailed as we wish they were. Probably the most comprehensive/accurate survey of physician salaries is done by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which lists FP as 168K, Internists as 183K, Ob/Gyn as 204K, Pediatricians as 161K, Psychiatrists as 163K and Surgeons as 220K. The problem with that survey is that it's really general in the specialties chosen and it combines all the various surgical fields into just one "surgery" category.

Im just curious because people always tell me they want to be a Neurosurgeon, ortho, etc because of the pay but they arent dedicated enough to be top med students so they always want to know easier specialties that pay well too.

For all the specialties I just listed you still have to be around the top 20% of your class. For example, I said General Surgery was much less competitive than Neuro, but keep in mind that's only because schools only match 2-3 students into Ortho and 1-2 into Neuro but ~10 into General Surgery. When you consider that your class will be anywhere from 100-150 students, you realize that most of these students are still at the top of their class. This is why they always say you should go into medical school with the goal of becoming an internist/clinician, and then later see if you're up for/qualified for being a specialist. A lot of people go into med school with the hope of becoming a surgeon but end up doing IM/FM anyway.

Also, remember that you can't really compare physician salaries to other salaries or even among specialties. These salaries are high not necessarily because of the skill the job requires, but because of the amount of debt physicians graduate with along with the number of hours they spend working. A Neurosurgeon, for example, usually begins earning a real salary at 35, after ~200K of debt which with interest is probably really around ~350K, and spends 80-100 hrs/wk working/or on call; something most medical students end up refusing to do unless they're obsessed with Neuro, regardless of the income potential.

 

[schrizto]

Probably pathology.

 

[drizzt3117]

you know that no specialty (even derm) has more than 60% of matched applicants with AOA right? (top 16%) you don't HAVE to be in the top
20% of your class to match into anything. It helps though. Anesthesia and path are probably the two with high pay
and low average step. Neurology too.

Those are before taxes.

If you're interested, here is a survey of physician salaries:
http://www.allied-physicians.com/salary_surveys/physician-salaries.htm

Unfortunately a lot of these surveys tend to vary greatly in their results because none of them are as in-depth/detailed as we wish they were. Probably the most comprehensive/accurate survey of physician salaries is done by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which lists FP as 168K, Internists as 183K, Ob/Gyn as 204K, Pediatricians as 161K, Psychiatrists as 163K and Surgeons as 220K. The problem with that survey is that it's really general in the specialties chosen and it combines all the various surgical fields into just one "surgery" category.



For all the specialties I just listed you still have to be around the top 20% of your class. For example, I said General Surgery was much less competitive than Neuro, but keep in mind that's only because schools only match 2-3 students into Ortho and 1-2 into Neuro but ~10 into General Surgery. When you consider that your class will be anywhere from 100-150 students, you realize that most of these students are still at the top of their class. This is why they always say you should go into medical school with the goal of becoming an internists/clinician, and then later see if you're up for/qualified for being a specialist. A lot of people go into med school with the hope of becoming a surgeon but end up doing IM/FM anyway.

Also, remember that you can't really compare physician salaries to other salaries or even among specialties. These salaries are high not necessarily because of the skill the job requires, but because of the amount of debt physicians graduate with along with the number of hours they spend working. A Neurosurgeon, for example, usually begins earning a real salary at 35, after ~200K of debt which with interest is probably really around ~350K, and spends 80-100 hrs/wk working/or on call; something most medical students end up refusing to do unless they're obsessed with Neuro, regardless of the income potential.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Neonatology

 

[Geekchick921]

Neonatology

Are any of the pediatric subspecialties competitive? My presumption is no, since most of them pay much more than general peds, but neonatalogy actually does get paid significantly more, right? So with that in mind, is a neonatal fellowship difficult to match into?

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Are any of the pediatric subspecialties competitive? My presumption is no, since most of them pay much more than general peds, but neonatalogy actually does get paid significantly more, right? So with that in mind, is a neonatal fellowship difficult to match into?

Nope, it's easy. Even at the biggest centers it isn't that hard if you're reasonable and have good recs. You can be a neonatal fellow working for me. Wouldn't that be fun?. And, yes, neonatologists get paid fairly well.

Pedi cards, heme/onc and EM are all moderately, but not highly, competitive, not based on salary in particular but based on interest folks have in those areas.

 

[tkim]

Pmr

 

[Geekchick921]

Nope, it's easy. Even at the biggest centers it isn't that hard if you're reasonable and have good recs. You can be a neonatal fellow working for me. Wouldn't that be fun?. And, yes, neonatologists get paid fairly well.

Pedi cards, heme/onc and EM are all moderately, but not highly, competitive, not based on salary in particular but based on interest folks have in those areas.

OBP, you are one of the sanest people on this forum. I think it'd be a pleasure to work for you, honest to goodness. *wipes brown off nose* In all honesty, several things have been making me more and more interested in neonatalogy in the last two years or so, largely having a kid myself (who thankfully, did not require NICU time, but many of my friends have had children that did).

 

[oldbearprofessor]

OBP, you are one of the sanest people on this forum. I think it'd be a pleasure to work for you, honest to goodness. *wipes brown off nose* In all honesty, several things have been making me more and more interested in neonatalogy in the last two years or so, largely having a kid myself (who thankfully, did not require NICU time, but many of my friends have had children that did).

Oh no, you got your nose in the brownie mix you baked for me. Well, I'm sure I'll still like any treats you send my way as bribes.

BTW, somewhere above 100% of neo fellows have babies during fellowship or have had them already. We're used to the mommy (and daddy...) thing amongst our fellows.

 

[NickNaylor]

Does not compute.

 

[mfrizzo3]

Emergency Medicine?

 

[gravitywave]

Emergency Medicine?

i was going to jump in with this too, but EM doesn't pay "relatively high" as the OP was asking. in all other respects however, it is the ultimate 'lifestyle' specialty.... not competitive in the match, four years of post-grad, most attendings only work 12 shifts a month w/ no call.

 

[iqe2010]

i was going to jump in with this too, but EM doesn't pay "relatively high" as the OP was asking. in all other respects however, it is the ultimate 'lifestyle' specialty.... not competitive in the match, four years of post-grad, most attendings only work 12 shifts a month w/ no call.

I've been looking into Emergency Medicine lately. What's the average income?

 

[muhali3]

EM and Anesthesiology are not really competitive. Pathology is probably the best combination of easiest to get into and highest paying. PM & R is chill but you aren't getting anywhere near 300k, maybe closer to 200-230k.

look at this page for more info http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/specialties.htm

 

[drizzt3117]

Depends what you mean by "not really competitive" I would say they're above average...

 

[tkim]

i was going to jump in with this too, but EM doesn't pay "relatively high" as the OP was asking. in all other respects however, it is the ultimate 'lifestyle' specialty.... not competitive in the match, four years of post-grad, most attendings only work 12 shifts a month w/ no call.

Uh, no.

Moderate competitiveness in the match - along the lines of general surgery and anesthesia. Those 12 shifts a month are probably 12 hour shifts, which suck. Most people want work 8, 9, 10 hour shifts so it'll be more like 16 shifts a month. There is no call, but you work nights, weekends, and holidays. Hardly a 'lifestyle' specialty.

 

[tkim]

EM and Anesthesiology are not really competitive. Pathology is probably the best combination of easiest to get into and highest paying. PM & R is chill but you aren't getting anywhere near 300k, maybe closer to 200-230k.

look at this page for more info http://www.aamc.org/students/cim/specialties.htm

Premeds ...

 

[Evergrey]

The ER doc I shadowed had to work 24 hour shifts 3 times a week because they were short on physicians

tkim, where are those youtube videos from?

 

[tkim]

The ER doc I shadowed had to work 24 hour shifts 3 times a week because they were short on physicians

tkim, where are those youtube videos from?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0404756/

 

[NickNaylor]

Uh, no.

Moderate competitiveness in the match - along the lines of general surgery and anesthesia. Those 12 shifts a month are probably 12 hour shifts, which suck. Most people want work 8, 9, 10 hour shifts so it'll be more like 16 shifts a month. There is no call, but you work nights, weekends, and holidays. Hardly a 'lifestyle' specialty.

That's all person-dependent though. I know I would personally rather work 12 hour days over 8 hour days if that means I get more time off on the back end. Weekends and holidays would suck no matter what, but you're never going to get the perfect situation.

No, it's not the best thing ever, but it's certainly not the worst.

 

[FlowRate]

Maybe I'm weird but if I'm working 3 days/wk, 12hr/workday, I don't care if it's on a weekend or a night or a singular holiday. That's still 3days/wk (let's say you compensate with 1 extra overall day of sleep per week) that you are off and can spend doing chores, or hanging with your family, or whatever.

 

[Appless]

Maybe I'm weird but if I'm working 3 days/wk, 12hr/workday, I don't care if it's on a weekend or a night or a singular holiday. That's still 3days/wk (let's say you compensate with 1 extra overall day of sleep per week) that you are off and can spend doing chores, or hanging with your family, or whatever.

agree. Maybe itll change later but i used to work 12 hr overnight shifts at another job several times a week. If all i had to do was that 3 times a week and 1 day of recovery i think it would be awesome.

 

[tkim]

Well, as someone who did 12 hour shifts as a resident, let me tell you, they are draining. And speaking from real experience, I would rather do more 8-10 hour shifts than less 12 hour shifts. Whatever 12 hour/shift job you had before ... sorry, not comparable.

 

[muhali3]

Depends what you mean by "not really competitive" I would say they're above average...

I'm basing my analysis purely on NRMP match data, specifically match rates and step 1 scores.

Anesthesiology and EM have average step 1 scores of 224 and 221 for matched applicants respectively. Surprisingly, this is lower than the average overall score of 224.3 for US MD students. People who matched into Internal Medicine had an average score of 225, higher than both Gas and EM, and I doubt many people think Internal Medicine is "competitive". (pg 13)

If you want to look at match rates, 92% and 93% percent of people who applied to Gas and EM matched respectively. This is the same as OB/GYN (93%) and close to Med/Peds (94%), Pathology (94%), and PM&R (95%). Although, I do concede that match rates aren't entirely accurate as people who apply to certain specialties are somewhat of a self-selected group. (page 9)

edit: forgot to post source - http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2009v3.pdf

 

[drizzt3117]

I'm basing my analysis purely on NRMP match data, specifically match rates and step 1 scores.

Anesthesiology and EM have average step 1 scores of 224 and 221 for matched applicants respectively. People who matched into Internal Medicine had an average score of 225, higher than both Gas and EM, and I doubt many people think Internal Medicine is "competitive". (pg 13)

If you want to look at match rates, 92% and 93% percent of people who applied to Gas and EM matched respectively. This is the same as OB/GYN (93%) and close to Med/Peds (94%), Pathology (94%), and PM&R (95%). Although, I do concede that match rates aren't entirely accurate as people who apply to certain specialties are somewhat of a self-selected group. (page 9)

Here's the thing. Anesthesia is one of those specialties (to even a larger degree than rads) that the top quality university programs are very competitive but random community programs are relatively easy to match into. The standard deviation on average step score is quite high. EM is easier to match into, but both of these are above the national average in terms of step 1 score and % AOA, etc, which makes them above average in competitiveness. IM is also easy to match into somewhere, but hard to match into a top program.

 

[indya]

the main reason specialties are competitive is because they pay highly.

who in their right mind would *enjoy* the subject matter of dermatology? that stuff is boring. yet, it is the most competitive specialty.

Neurosurgery?
Hours are horrible, education is long, pay is great.

 

[Lacheln]

I had a classmate tell me the other day that she's interested in either derm, rads or ent purely for intellectual stimulation's sake. To her credit, she kept a straight face. We're rising MSII's so it's good she's practicing that early. All joking aside though, I've heard a couple of pro's in the derm column that aren't purely lifestyle. You get to do a mix of procedures and clinical diagnostics (in fact I've heard it's one of the most challenging fields in that regard), which is definitely appealing to a lot of people.

I don't think I would say EM is necessarily a lifestyle specialty based on the reviews some of my EP friends have given me. It depends a lot on how you handle changes to your circadian rhythm, because early in your career (and sometimes even later in your career) you have little control over which shifts you get - you switch back and forth between night shift for a week, day shift for the following week (or maybe every other week, or whatever)...so those extra days off are spent adjusting to the new sleep cycle, not jetting off to St. Croix for a long weekend. The GP type work flooding the ERs these days sounds annoying. The $$ is good though, especially when considered at an hourly rate. No call is excellent. And you also have more geographic flexibility in your career because you never build a patient base that would then have to be rebuilt if you move.

ETA: No one goes into neuro for the money. You can make more money far, far more easily...the neurosurgeons I've met are extremely focused - I don't think they would have been happy anywhere else.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

you know that no specialty (even derm) has more than 60% of matched applicants with AOA right? (top 16%) you don't HAVE to be in the top
20% of your class to match into anything. It helps though. Anesthesia and path are probably the two with high pay
and low average step. Neurology too.

Related question. Are you guaranteed AOA if you're in the top 16% of your class? Or can you actually be denied AOA for whatever reason/is that even common. I guess what I'm saying is, are AOA members actually less than 16% of the class because some of the top 16% don't get in? Do they take step scores into consideration for AOA?

 

[NickNaylor]

Related question. Are you guaranteed AOA if you're in the top 16% of your class? Or can you actually be denied AOA for whatever reason/is that even common. I guess what I'm saying is, are AOA members actually less than 16% of the class because some of the top 16% don't get in? Do they take step scores into consideration for AOA?

Methods of selection vary from school to school. Some base admission strictly on academic achievements; others have a process that's more involved.

 

[45408]

i was going to jump in with this too, but EM doesn't pay "relatively high" as the OP was asking. in all other respects however, it is the ultimate 'lifestyle' specialty.... not competitive in the match, four years of post-grad, most attendings only work 12 shifts a month w/ no call.

It pays fairly highly per hour by comparison. It's only a 3 year residency.


Overall, I'd say pathology, PM&R, and anesthesia are the best fit to the OP's question. Neonatology as well, I guess.

 

[samuraiR]

Does PM&R really pay that well? I heard you get some ****ty ass pay (from an actual PM&R Dr. I shadowed).

 

[Don Draper]

Well, as someone who did 12 hour shifts as a resident, let me tell you, they are draining. And speaking from real experience, I would rather do more 8-10 hour shifts than less 12 hour shifts. Whatever 12 hour/shift job you had before ... sorry, not comparable.

lol.

Yes, medicine is the hardest 12 hour job on the planet.

That's a silly assertion. Go do construction or hard labor for 12 hours, much more difficult.

The medical crowd is so "woe is me" sometimes. Medicine isn't the hardest job in the world by any means. I have a buddy on an oil rig, sometimes his co-workers die... that's a hard 12 hour day.

 

[KTownGT]

lol.

Yes, medicine is the hardest 12 hour job on the planet.

That's a silly assertion. Go do construction or hard labor for 12 hours, much more difficult.

The medical crowd is so "woe is me" sometimes. Medicine isn't the hardest job in the world by any means. I have a buddy on an oil rig, sometimes his co-workers die... that's a hard 12 hour day.

Medicine is probably one of the most taxing mentally draining jobs...

Construction/Oil worker is up there on harder physically draining jobs...

It's silly to even try and compare the two.

 

[avatarftw]

Emergency medicine and anesthesiology pay relatively well (per hour and in absolute terms) and successfully matched applicants have average USMLE step 1 scores.

This isn't a thread for which specialty is more lucrative, or which pays the highest, or which is the hardest to get into..

Rather, I want to know which specialties pay relatively high but are still generally possible to get into. We all know ROAD(E) pays high but what specialties have the same salary but aren't as hard to get into?


I searched but kept getting "most competitive specialties" type threads

 

[avatarftw]

3 or 4 years post grad education for MD residencies.

i was going to jump in with this too, but EM doesn't pay "relatively high" as the OP was asking. in all other respects however, it is the ultimate 'lifestyle' specialty.... not competitive in the match, four years of post-grad, most attendings only work 12 shifts a month w/ no call.

 

[tkim]

lol.

Yes, medicine is the hardest 12 hour job on the planet.

That's a silly assertion. Go do construction or hard labor for 12 hours, much more difficult.

The medical crowd is so "woe is me" sometimes. Medicine isn't the hardest job in the world by any means. I have a buddy on an oil rig, sometimes his co-workers die... that's a hard 12 hour day.

No jackass, the mental exhaustion of seeing / diagnosing / treating patients for twelve hours straight without misdiagnosing or killing someone is very real. Didn't say medicine was the hardest job in the world, so quit it with the strawman.

 

[avatarftw]

Amen, it depends on the person. I would have no qualms about doing PT for 12 hours. Free exercise. However, mental exercise can be a b--ch!

Medicine is probably one of the most taxing mentally draining jobs...

Construction/Oil worker is up there on harder physically draining jobs...

It's silly to even try and compare the two.

 

[orthomyxo]

lol.

Yes, medicine is the hardest 12 hour job on the planet.

That's a silly assertion. Go do construction or hard labor for 12 hours, much more difficult.

The medical crowd is so "woe is me" sometimes. Medicine isn't the hardest job in the world by any means. I have a buddy on an oil rig, sometimes his co-workers die... that's a hard 12 hour day.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but have you ever worked a 12 hour shift as a resident or attending? Just sayin'.

 

[KTownGT]

Amen, it depends on the person. I would have no qualms about doing PT for 12 hours. Free exercise. However, mental exercise can be a b--ch!

Mental exercise also wont make you jacked and tanned, either.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

This isn't a thread for which specialty is more lucrative, or which pays the highest, or which is the hardest to get into..

Rather, I want to know which specialties pay relatively high but are still generally possible to get into. We all know ROAD(E) pays high but what specialties have the same salary but aren't as hard to get into?


I searched but kept getting "most competitive specialties" type threads

Anesthesiology. Average Step 1 of 220, so it's not very competitive, yet it pays $300k~ soon after completion of residency for private practice.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

Uh, no.

Moderate competitiveness in the match - along the lines of general surgery and anesthesia. Those 12 shifts a month are probably 12 hour shifts, which suck. Most people want work 8, 9, 10 hour shifts so it'll be more like 16 shifts a month. There is no call, but you work nights, weekends, and holidays. Hardly a 'lifestyle' specialty.

You got to be joking.

Moderate competitiveness means it's not very competitive. 12 hour shifts may suck, but you only do 3 a week. Who the hell is going to complain about having to work weekends or nights once in a while when you get 4 days a week off?

 

[Hoody]

Medicine is probably one of the most taxing mentally draining jobs...

Construction/Oil worker is up there on harder physically draining jobs...

It's silly to even try and compare the two.

Agreed. As a nurse, I LOVE 12 hour shifts. My guy, an ER doc, is literally dead after 8-10 hours.

He's the one writing orders (mental).

I'm the one carrying out the orders (physical).


two totally different evils, and from my experience, mental exhaustion is worse than physical.

 

[lll1I1lII1lll1I]

No jackass, the mental exhaustion of seeing / diagnosing / treating patients for twelve hours straight without misdiagnosing or killing someone is very real. Didn't say medicine was the hardest job in the world, so quit it with the strawman.

You didn't say it explicitly, but you implied it by saying "Whatever 12 hour/shift job you had before ... sorry, not comparable."

You straight up said that no job any of us ever had before is comparable to medicine in terms of exhaustion. And how do you know none of us worked construction/hard labor before?

 

[tkim]

You got to be joking.

Moderate competitiveness means it's not very competitive. 12 hour shifts may suck, but you only do 3 a week. Who the hell is going to complain about having to work weekends or nights once in a while when you get 4 days a week off?

You know, for people who comment on shit they have no concept about is just frickin grating at times. Sooo easy for the cocksure premed who has yet to get into med school, much less treat a patient, much less go through the residency match, spout lines about what's competitive based on USMLE scores, or how easy or hard a job is by the hours worked.

You don't get it. I mean, it's natural that you don't because you have no basis to compare it to. For the outsider looking in, doing three 12's/week sounds easy. "Weekends or nights once in a while" - buddy, for most people that's every week - a night or weekend, on a rotating basis. I don't know where you and everyone else gets the 'three 12's a week' thing, but it's no longer the norm, and most people when given the choice will take shorter shifts and more of them.