Non-traditional Medschool applicant with foreign coursework

[nursedoctor]

Hi, I am curious to find out if there are medical school applicants out there with a foreign undergrad degree or current medical students who were accepted in medical school with foreign coursework.
I have a fairly decent GPA and evaluated by a third party company but worried that universities might have preferred third party evaluators. I could not afford to pay for another evaluation ($200-300!!), it would be easier for me to use the same evaluator (NACES accredited) that I used and just request for extra copies to be sent to schools requesting it.

Anyway, I am just being paranoid that I might get discriminated with medschool apps due to my foreign coursework. I am taking prereqs at a 4 year uni and planning to take MCAT early next year. I will also complete my masters degree here in the US in December. I that enough proof that my undergrad performance is on par if not even better with my academic performance here in the US? :/

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[DrMidlife]

Green card or citizenship? That's priority 1 here. Unless your family is incredibly wealthy and your credentials are painfully stellar, you can't go to a US med school as a foreign national.

Being appalled at spending $200 or $300, with a exclamation mark, is way out of proportion to what you'll have to spend to apply to (hundreds to thousands), interview at (thousands) and attend (hundreds of thousands) med school. If you can remove an application complication with $200 or $300, that's good money to spend.

Depending on your US residency status, ECFMG may be the best place to start for basics. Then start looking at the admissions websites for med schools and thoroughly read the FAQs. You may need to look at several before you find good helpful information. As I recall, Einstein was a school that takes a lot of internationals.

Generally your foreign GPA will not be taken very seriously. It needs to not be crap, and it needs to be backed up with a strong US GPA and strong MCAT. Med schools aren't going to work very hard to understand what's in that evaluation report.

Look for posts by Scottish Chap.

Best of luck to you.

 

[nursedoctor]

Thanks DrMidlife, I am a US citizen. Haha I know I exaggerated a bit on 200-300 but prereqs, MCAT prep, and grad studies are already too expensive and adding more expenses (another TOR veal) will just add to that pile, considering I quit my job to squeeze in extra-curricular activities.

I hope it goes well. I will apply next year and just figuring all this out before I work my ass off on prereqs and MCAT prep. I am staying positive and see how well it goes for me I will apply to DO schools as well.

 

[theSmurfette]

AMCAS does not even evaluate foreign transcripts. You are not required to submit them at all. They may not recognize your foreign degree at all. So you will have to have 90 hours of credits from an US institution just to be eligible to apply. Check with each school because some will accept your graduate credits as part of the 90 hours.

AACOMAS requires an evaluation to be submitted from a list of approved evaluators. See page 3 of the PDF.

https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/amcas/faqs/147536/amcas_2010_faqs-6.7.html

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2014cib/2014cib-24 AACOMAS FAQ.pdf

 

[nursedoctor]

Thanks smurfette! All of my prereqs will be from here but I don't think they will total to 90 credits. Hopefully, my masters degree will be sufficient to cover for the remaining credits. If it doesn't work, i will apply to DO schools as well since they accept foreign coursework as long as they are evaluated..

Fingers crossed

 

[Amygdarya]

AMCAS does not even evaluate foreign transcripts. You are not required to submit them at all. They may not recognize your foreign degree at all. So you will have to have 90 hours of credits from an US institution just to be eligible to apply. Check with each school because some will accept your graduate credits as part of the 90 hours.

AACOMAS requires an evaluation to be submitted from a list of approved evaluators. See page 3 of the PDF.

https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/amcas/faqs/147536/amcas_2010_faqs-6.7.html

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2014cib/2014cib-24 AACOMAS FAQ.pdf

This information is very helpful, but I just wanted to make a correction: not all schools require at least 90 US credits. The general rule is, the more prestigious (and private) a school is, the more flexible it is with foreign coursework (or with coursework in general). Of course, the catch is, it's hard to get into a school like that for anyone, so one should have strong credentials to apply there.
But I agree with you 100% that one should check with individual schools before applying.

 

[CW 2010]

Some schools specifically say on their websites what applicants with foreign degrees need to do in order to apply. Some schools will require you to take only prerequisites in the U.S. UIC comes to mind - they also accept CC credits. You need to carefully look into each school you are planning to apply to. They also specify the evaluation services they want you to use.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Hi, I am curious to find out if there are medical school applicants out there with a foreign undergrad degree or current medical students who were accepted in medical school with foreign coursework.
I have a fairly decent GPA and evaluated by a third party company but worried that universities might have preferred third party evaluators. I could not afford to pay for another evaluation ($200-300!!), it would be easier for me to use the same evaluator (NACES accredited) that I used and just request for extra copies to be sent to schools requesting it.

Anyway, I am just being paranoid that I might get discriminated with medschool apps due to my foreign coursework. I am taking prereqs at a 4 year uni and planning to take MCAT early next year. I will also complete my masters degree here in the US in December. I that enough proof that my undergrad performance is on par if not even better with my academic performance here in the US? :/

I was accepted to U.S. medical schools with missing prerequisite courses and with a foreign undergraduate degree. It's a problem, but not insurmountable. Please see my old posts--I've posted on this issue ad nauseam in the past.

 

[nursedoctor]

That is awesome! Do you mind telling me which schools you got accepted at? what were your stats? Thanks!

 

[Amygdarya]

That is awesome! Do you mind telling me which schools you got accepted at? what were your stats? Thanks!

Keep in mind that Scottish Chap is a resident now, which means he applied to medical school years ago. Schools requirements do change and, unfortunately, most often not in favor of internationals (as in a school accepting internationals one year and not the next). It's best to hear from the horse's mouth, i.e. directly from individual schools.

That said, if you're a US citizen or permanent resident, you're already ahead of the curve. Not being either is a *major* disadvantage for US medical school application; making sure your foreign degree and/or courses are acceptable is a very minor annoyance in comparison

 

[nursedoctor]

Keep in mind that Scottish Chap is a resident now, which means he applied to medical school years ago. Schools requirements do change and, unfortunately, most often not in favor of internationals (as in a school accepting internationals one year and not the next). It's best to hear from the horse's mouth, i.e. directly from individual schools.

That said, if you're a US citizen or permanent resident, you're already ahead of the curve. Not being either is a *major* disadvantage for US medical school application; making sure your foreign degree and/or courses are acceptable is a very minor annoyance in comparison

Very helpful as always! I still need to enter my grades from my evaluated TOR to AMCAS, right? I know it will not be verified but will it still compute my cGPA and sGPA? Thanks again!

 

[Scottish Chap]

Keep in mind that Scottish Chap is a resident now

I'm not a resident, buddy...

 

[Scottish Chap]

Very helpful as always! I still need to enter my grades from my evaluated TOR to AMCAS, right? I know it will not be verified but will it still compute my cGPA and sGPA? Thanks again!

This is a shady area. I personally entered the evaluated grades on the AMCAS form. They were not 'verified' and the GPA read as 0.00 for undergraduate, but the grades and credits were left on the AMCAS form and all of the medical schools saw them. If you get past the first screen, they will see them; if not, they won't.

 

[Scottish Chap]

https://www.aamc.org/students/download/182162/data/amcas_instruction_manual.pdf
(starting page 49)

The 2015 AMCAS instruction manual has a updated and exceedingly detailed section on foreign course work that seems a little confusing (I should come up with a flow chart). Let see if I can clarify it a little with some of the major points

1) American Schools with overseas programs are NOT considered foreign schools and require transcripts

2) "Independent Attendance, Credits Not Transferred
Courses (other than M.D. coursework) attempted independently at a foreign institution arenot required to be listed if credit has not been transferred to a U.S. or Canadian institution, EXCEPT to meet medical school prerequisites unduplicated by other listed coursework."

3) "If you include this coursework on your application:
Include the foreign institution in Schools Attended.
Request a transcript exception for the foreign institution.
Do not send foreign transcripts or certificates to AMCAS.
Provide all required course data except credit hours attempted and grades.
The coursework will not be verified by AMCAS and will not be included in your AMCAS GPAs."

4) .AMCAS does not accept transcripts from international evaluation services, such as World Education Services (WES)

In Sum, you can technically use foreign courses (ie not part of US Based overseas institution or a formal US based Study Abroad program) to fulfill prereqs. But it requires exception, no letter grades seen by medical schools and no weight into your GPA

1, 2, and 3 are not new....it read this way when I applied in 2003 (I ignored 3 and sent the grades anyway. I also arranged for my undergraduate school overseas to send my 'unevaluated' grades to AMCAS on an official basis at my expense). 4 is new. I used WES, and WES back then was the gold standard. AMCAS used my WES evaluated grades and placed them on the transcript.

 

[Amygdarya]

I'm not a resident, buddy...

Sorry, I meant no disrespect, I was just writing from my phone where I couldn't see your current status (I still can't because I'm writing from my phone again, haha.)

In any case, I'd like to thank you for your older posts that gave me some good ideas on how to prepare my own application. I just wanted to point out that requirements/policies do change from year to year, so the best bet is to check with individual schools.

 

[Amygdarya]

Very helpful as always! I still need to enter my grades from my evaluated TOR to AMCAS, right? I know it will not be verified but will it still compute my cGPA and sGPA? Thanks again!

The question was already answered above, but, in any case, I entered all my foreign courses/grades into AMCAS but they were neither verified nor calculated into my GPA. I'm not 100% sure, but I think schools were able to see my foreign grades; at least I had them in my final AMCAS report.
I also did send my official transcript evaluation to AMCAS, but it looks like I shouldn't have wasted the money: AMCAS didn't use it anyway.
You'll have to send your foreign transcript and evaluation to the school you'll be matriculating at though.

 

[Scottish Chap]

The question was already answered above, but, in any case, I entered all my foreign courses/grades into AMCAS but they were neither verified nor calculated into my GPA.

But were the grades left on the AMCAS form for medical schools to see (as in my case)?

 

[Amygdarya]

But were the grades left on the AMCAS form for medical schools to see (as in my case)?

I have just updated my post above.
I actually don't know whether the schools could see my grades, but my guess is they could because I had my foreign grades in my own final AMCAS report.

 

[bluepolka]

@Scottish Chap you mean to say you took no US classes at all? Just your foreign degree and MCAT? And were able to get in? I'm also thinking of med school and have a foreign Masters with a Microbiology Major. I'm sure I have the biology an chemistry credits. However, I have not taken physics, English, humanities and other prereqs! My friend reckons that if I take the MCAT and ace it (30-35) the universities couldn't be bothered bout my remaining prereqs. I honestly have not studied since 2009 and thinking of a career change now with a foreign degree and solely focussing on MCAT assuming the rest won't matter is baffling me to the point of sleeplessness! I hope you can she some light on what my next step should be? Should I take summer sessions for physics and English? Or consider a post bacc program? @Amygdarya thank you for redirecting me. Again. ID love to hear from you too

 

[bluepolka]

@gonnif thank you for your detailed response. This is exactly the route I was planning on taking. Because it has been 6 years since graduation and I have a lot of catching up to do. My Microbio major involved several years of upper-level sciences and two years of chem with lab. That is why I thought my prereqs would be covered, at least partially. When I emailed Columbia, they said they wanted at least a year in a US institute. Post bacc with a MCAT prep emphasis would be most helpful for me. But it adds to the cost. Would taking summer classes with credit hours work? I'm so confused at this point. But I don't want my confusion to overtake my goals right now. I'm apprehensive about the changing MCAT as well. I don't know if that is a good thing or not. Should I give it in 2015? Do you think I stand a chance for the 2015 batch in med school? Or should I aim for 2016? I would greatly appreciate all the help I can get. I sometimes amaze myself at te decision I am making. I had set myself up to being a homemaker and raising children. But I didn't find a single day of happiness in that. I always wanted to do more. It's now or never for me and I don't care how long it takes. Life is short, and we have to do lots!

 

[Scottish Chap]

You should consider scottish chap's experience atypical as it had some items that are in direct conflict with the AMCAS stated policy and his acceptance was over 10 years ago. We cant shed any light if AMCAS will act in same way now.. There is not a guarantee nor any recourse if your foreign course work is rejected out of hand.

Additionally, even if your course work was accepted, graduate level credits in microbiology DO NOT count as fulfilling the undergraduate prereqs. You friend's very optimistic view that medical schools "couldn't be bothered bout... [your]... remaining prereqs" is not, in my experience, how adcoms will look at your record. The application process is structured in such a way that , intentionally or not, it is a negative process. That is, they react to reject applications that do not fulfill the specific courses listed as requirements. While your graduate microbiology overall may give an advantage, you may never get to that point in the process if you are rejected for lack of basic requirements. While you dont need all the requirements filled prior to application, it is a detriment to your competitiveness if you dont. Most schools will require them as a condition of acceptance prior to matriculation.

Having said all that, the "new" MCAT 2015 with its competencies as opposed to specific course requirements has been quickly spreading to schools. So specific course requirements may drop over the next few years. However, it is likely that adcoms themselves will be slower to change. That is, they will still "like to see" applicants with bio, chem, physics, etc., on their application.

Your best bet would be identifying american schools that will accept the 1 year/32 credits of US course work as sufficient and then take a postbacc to do so. It will also be a basis of preparation for the MCAT. As an aside, one of biggest mistakes I see in nontraditional science PhDs who seek to go to medicine is their belief that their degree makes them well prepared for the MCAT. Some these have had freshman chem or bio more than a decade earlier. They are astounded at how they could have possibly gotten such low MCAT scores.

Maybe, but I was accepted, my friend. There are many ways to skin a cat. One of the many advantages of being trained in America.....this great country gives opportunities to hard-working people if they perceive you to be genuine. Sometimes outliers succeed. Someone believed in me and helped me. I'll help the next person.

@Scottish Chap you mean to say you took no US classes at all? Just your foreign degree and MCAT? And were able to get in? I'm also thinking of med school and have a foreign Masters with a Microbiology Major. I'm sure I have the biology an chemistry credits. However, I have not taken physics, English, humanities and other prereqs! My friend reckons that if I take the MCAT and ace it (30-35) the universities couldn't be bothered bout my remaining prereqs. I honestly have not studied since 2009 and thinking of a career change now with a foreign degree and solely focussing on MCAT assuming the rest won't matter is baffling me to the point of sleeplessness! I hope you can she some light on what my next step should be? Should I take summer sessions for physics and English? Or consider a post bacc program? @Amygdarya thank you for redirecting me. Again. ID love to hear from you too

One year of undergraduate physics in the U.S. and ~1.5 years of graduate classes as part of a PhD. I had a very rigorous pure science undergraduate degree from a strong institution in the UK, however. The science undergraduate credits are important for this is the material tested on the MCAT. Also (believe it or not) certain state medical licensing bodies have specific undergraduate science requirements. This is one reason why some 'diploma mill', for-profit, off-shore medial schools are not recognized in certain states if they do not demand undergraduate science prerequisites. The best thing you can do is take all the prerequisite classes. It gives you a statistical advantage because you are eligible to apply to any U.S. school. Anecdotes and personal stories are great and they are encouraging; this is why I sometimes contribute, but what worked for one person might not work for the next. I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Yes you were accepted but, as you stated, you were an outlier. The demographics of the applicant pool have greatly change in the decade since you applied. As I said, your experience was atypical and cant really be relied on as basis for recommendation to other prospective students to follow in the application process. Certainly it can viewed in its experiential light for finding a path no matter the obstacles

I read what you said. This is one of the reasons why I rarely post on SDN. Bluepolka addressed me, and asked about my application. I answered the question in a thoughful (and hopefully encouraging) manner. I respectfully disagree that the demographics of the applicant pool has greatly changed.

Blupolka: don't be discouraged, but make yourself as competitive as possible as suggested in my post and by others. Just know assuredly that you don't have to be be a genius to gain admission with foreign credentials (I'm extremely average). Too many people demonize the medical school admissions committee. They are not 'out to get us'; they are merely looking for qualified applicants and, thankfully, it's a job run by humans, and many of those humans might just take a chance on you if you have made yourself as competitive as you can. Many have done it before you, and many will do it after you. Medical school admissions is cyclical. Apply, and apply again, and then again if you have to...

 

[Scottish Chap]

While I am not an adcom member, I am Executive Director of National Society of Nontraditional Premedical and Medical Students, better known as OldPreMeds.org, a longtime partner of SDN. Because of my position, which I describe as Advocacy, Advisement and Analysis, I have spent the last decade interfacing with both individuals and organization across the premedical and medical education community, including adcoms at MD, DO, and Offshore schools. My advanced degree is in Sociology and I centered more and more in the past few years on the changing demographics medical school applicants and pressures that change those demographics. From doing that I feel part of my mission is to give students accurate information about "the process." Much of that does exist in the reams of data on medical school applicants, matriculants, residency, etc.

Congrats....I will now activate the blocking function for all of your posts from now on.

 

[bluepolka]

Omg! I cannot believe my innocent question caused such emotional upheaval! Haha! Thank you the both of you! @Scottish Chap I've followed plenty of your posts and they are encouraging. Atypical, but encouraging nonetheless. @gonnif I appreciate your time effort too. I have come to a conclusion that I want to take baby steps before I jump into the MD process. The US system here is so different. I think I would do well to take some credit summer science classes to dip my toes and test the waters before I commit a 100% maybe a graduate school would be a good option. That way, I at least have a graduate degree to fall back upon if Things get too heavy. Thanks again!

 

[Why Not MD?]

Hi OP,

My friend and I are on the same boat as you are.

You should check each school you want to apply to. For example, University of Washington will accept foreign coursework (through bonafide credentials evaluators, and a transcript sent directly to UWSOM), and even accept community college credits.

Other schools will have requirements such as 90 hours credit units at a U.S. institution, prerequisites taken at a U.S. institution, etc. It really varies, so check each school's requirements.

The number of schools that accept foreign coursework is a minority. I am not taking my chances with this. My friend and I decided to take second bachelor's degrees despite our rigorous undergraduate training in a foreign country. This would hopefully allow us to apply to many other schools and widen our opportunities.

I'm not sure about the third party evaluators, but the ones that come up the most are WES and NACES. Try and see if med schools have a list on their webpage and see which are in a majority of school preferences.

Undergrad schools may also give you transfer credit for your foreign coursework. Take note however, that you should ask your school first if they can do this on their own, as a credential evaluator may give you less transfer credits than you could have gotten if it was a direct transcript evaluation.

Btw, I am a U.S. citizen and my friend is a permanent resident.

Hi, I am curious to find out if there are medical school applicants out there with a foreign undergrad degree or current medical students who were accepted in medical school with foreign coursework.
I have a fairly decent GPA and evaluated by a third party company but worried that universities might have preferred third party evaluators. I could not afford to pay for another evaluation ($200-300!!), it would be easier for me to use the same evaluator (NACES accredited) that I used and just request for extra copies to be sent to schools requesting it.

Anyway, I am just being paranoid that I might get discriminated with medschool apps due to my foreign coursework. I am taking prereqs at a 4 year uni and planning to take MCAT early next year. I will also complete my masters degree here in the US in December. I that enough proof that my undergrad performance is on par if not even better with my academic performance here in the US? :/