Nontrads who were making 150k+ - do you regret switching fields?

[Zyra]

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I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

 

[eteshoe]

Dude since I answered your other prompt, I'll say this:

The only way you switch fields making as much money as you're saying is IF despite all that money you're miserable enough to upend your life and start your career all over. If you explore this sub-forum, you'll see that the career changer path is not one to be taken lightly. Before doing anything rash, shadow a couple of doctors in a few different specialties to see if the hassle is worth it.

P.S. I was an engineer before with no foreseeable inheritance in my future (plus relatively young w/o any dependents or spouse) so my decision was not quite as high stakes as the one you seem to be contemplating.

 

[Zyra]

Dude since I answered your other prompt, I'll say this:

The only way you switch fields making as much money as you're saying is IF despite all that money you're miserable enough to upend your life and start your career all over. If you explore this sub-forum, you'll see that the career changer path is not one to be taken lightly. Before doing anything rash, shadow a couple of doctors in a few different specialties to see if the hassle is worth it.

P.S. I was an engineer before with no foreseeable inheritance in my future (plus relatively young w/o any dependents or spouse) so my decision was not quite as high stakes as the one you seem to be contemplating.

I don't like my job at all, but I may like my profession in another job (lower paying, higher QOL job with more human interaction). I don't like sitting at a desk for insanely long hours doing paperwork. My other thought is to get a lower paying job in law that involves more human interaction and has better hours.

My spouse, also a lawyer, likes their job. We don't have any kids or mortgage or debt. I'm not sure if we want kids, tbh.

I'm just keeping an open mind re: careers.

What made you change fields? Just curious because I know a lot of engineers who seem to love their job and they make low six figures already.

 

[eteshoe]

I don't like my job at all, but I may like my profession in another job (lower paying, higher QOL job with more human interaction). I don't like sitting at a desk for insanely long hours doing paperwork. My other thought is to get a lower paying job in law that involves more human interaction and has better hours.

My spouse, also a lawyer, likes their job. We don't have any kids or mortgage or debt. I'm not sure if we want kids, tbh.

I'm just keeping an open mind re: careers.

What made you change fields? Just curious because I know a lot of engineers who seem to love their job and they make low six figures already.

Understandable. Exploring more options within law can't hurt.

So originally went into engineering for the wrong reasons: I wanted to make that oil money. I was a strong student so I pushed through degree despite not enjoying it as much as I thought I should. I got the grades and internships. Found out I really didn't like oil and the expectations of ChEs in the field (though the money was quite good). So I decided to take a job doing design and process engineering contract work for large chemical and pharmaceutical companies after college since I wasn't sure what my strengths were other than oil and process control (by the end of college I had the thoughts of doing medicine but had no clue how to pursue it and thought it was too late anyhow). The job was actually pretty cool at first but eventually it got boring and I didn't get to really pursue the aspects that personally interested me - aka the basic science behind the engineering and medicine.

Eventually decided the money wasn't worth the misery of being boxed into a job that I had to drag myself to each day. So first I went back and did a master's to get some bio research experience and found out about the MD/PhD - which seemed to check the boxes I was looking for in a career. A few steps/yrs later I'm here. So far can't say I regret the decision. Though the hrs are long and the end isn't anywhere in sight (at least where I currently am in the PhD), I'm genuinely happy and that's totally worth it. The engineering experience wasn't for nothing though since my current boss is a biological engineer/physicist who was happy to take on someone who was comfortable applying engineering principles to biological questions. Though plenty of my engineering friends think I'm a bit crazy for switching but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[solitarius]

Path of least resistance to happiness is your friend.

Even if you like the science and the thought of helping people tickles you, medicine is HARD WORK.

 

[futuremdforme]

No regrets, but I have a partner who earns a good salary, so it's not as big of a sacrifice as some make. (Plus no post-bacc, etc, so literally just 4 years without income.) I don't think I could have done it with a post-bacc, then if there was a risk of having to go to one of the more expensive schools, etc.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

I'm going to stop doing medicine/working a professional job long before I have $2 million. I only became interested in early retirement after I went into medicine.... 😛

All kidding aside, you should explore both options. Do some shadowing of physicians, and also look into other possible careers in law. That will help you make an informed decision. But I will tell you that if you're looking for better QoL, I highly recommend *against* you undertaking a decade of medical training, during which your QoL will be given relatively low priority. Not to mention that a medical career also requires odious amounts of "sitting at a desk for insanely long hours doing paperwork."

In my case, I seriously am going to semi-retire next year at age 42 on far less than $2 million. I'll be doing a fellowship and anticipate likely working PT afterward. Maybe semi-retirement or going PT would be a good possibility for you to consider too, if you don't need the income from a FT balls-to-the-walls job.

 

[Zyra]

I'm going to stop doing medicine/working a professional job long before I have $2 million. I only became interested in early retirement after I went into medicine.... 😛

All kidding aside, you should explore both options. Do some shadowing of physicians, and also look into other possible careers in law. That will help you make an informed decision. But I will tell you that if you're looking for better QoL, I highly recommend *against* you undertaking a decade of medical training, during which your QoL will be given relatively low priority. Not to mention that a medical career also requires odious amounts of "sitting at a desk for insanely long hours doing paperwork."

In my case, I seriously am going to semi-retire next year at age 42 on far less than $2 million. I'll be doing a fellowship and anticipate likely working PT afterward. Maybe semi-retirement or going PT would be a good possibility for you to consider too, if you don't need the income from a FT balls-to-the-walls job.

I typically work 60-80 hours a week...I think med school itself would be an improved QOL, but residency (I guess it depends on the type of residency) and actual practice might suck. I didn't realize medicine requires long hours doing paperwork.

But yeah, a part of me just wants to move to Thailand or some place warm and call it quits on FT/structured corporate life in the US. LOL. I've also been thinking of learning programming so I can work part time abroad doing contract work...crazy ideas, I guess. My spouse and I don't have a ton of money saved up right now, so not sure how feasible going PT in the US is at the moment, at least where we live. I'd totally move abroad if my spouse were up for it though, or at least to a cheaper location where I could work PT.

Are you retiring early because you hate your job/medicine or is it due to other factors?

 

[deleted648172]

I'm living my last year like I'm going to die when I matriculate. I'm traveling, I'm going on adventures, I'm seeing my family, spending time with my closest friends, seeing the things I've always wanted to see. I'm sleeping in, and snoozing the alarm as many times as I want. I'm emotionally preparing myself for the major changes in my life that will happen when the scores matter again, and I'm not allowed to sleep.

To the original question - I make a lot less than I am worth. I think I chose to do that so that salary-loss wouldn't affect my decisions to pursue medicine. But I also enjoy what I'm doing and think it is worthy and meaningful work (I work in medical research).

I think at this stage, you have to accept that maximizing income is not going to be part of the equation. Right now, we are resettling into a new direction for our careers, and I think it's more important to focus on finding the work that we can keep doing in the long run, work that we find meaningful, that feeds our spirits. In time, we will make a good salary again, and it'll wipe away any debts or doubts we had.

During my training, I'm going to be borrowing money from future-me. Future-me approves of my extravagant life style, so future-me can pay the interest. Thanks future-me, don't hate younger-you.

 

[Setto]

I typically work 60-80 hours a week...I think med school itself would be an improved QOL, but residency (I guess it depends on the type of residency) and actual practice might suck. I didn't realize medicine requires long hours doing paperwork.

But yeah, a part of me just wants to move to Thailand or some place warm and call it quits on FT/structured corporate life in the US. LOL. I've also been thinking of learning programming so I can work part time abroad doing contract work...crazy ideas, I guess. My spouse and I don't have a ton of money saved up right now, so not sure how feasible going PT in the US is at the moment, at least where we live. I'd totally move abroad if my spouse were up for it though, or at least to a cheaper location where I could work PT.

Are you retiring early because you hate your job/medicine or is it due to other factors?

Hang in there for a few more years and then...

http://www.investopedia.com/article...00k-retirement-savings-will-last-30-years.asp

Maybe do some telecommuting wills and estates work on the side during retirement.

 

[Zyra]

Hang in there for a few more years and then...

http://www.investopedia.com/article...00k-retirement-savings-will-last-30-years.asp

Maybe do some telecommuting wills and estates work on the side during retirement.

Lol. I'd be up for that if the spouse were. That doesn't seem like enough to last 20 years for a couple though, but I guess you could maybe do law part-time or teach English part-time and just hang out the rest of the day/do outdoorsy stuff.

 

[Doctor-S]

I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

Ever since I was a wee lass, I knew I wanted to become an MD, or a JD, or a DVM. Seriously. I knew.

In my last year of high school and throughout college, I worked in two different hospital emergency rooms (Level I and Level II); shadowed a handful of MDs; worked in two busy animal shelters; shadowed a handful of DVMs; participated in two UG research labs, etc.

* Important note: I share these specific details with you only because I think it is important for you to know that I took the time to obtain a "basic introduction" to the practice of human medicine and veterinary medicine (by actively engaging in the above-mentioned ECs). In so doing, I obtained a "general idea" of what to expect as an aspiring doc to two-legged or four-legged patients before registering for those types of admission tests. In other words ... try it out before you pursue it ... think before leaping ... do time in the real-life trenches ... you get the idea.

After graduating from college, I immediately attended law school. Then, I used my JD career to earn and save extra income for the rest of my education. This pool of monthly income allowed me to pursue other degrees (which was my plan from the get-go). As soon as I completed the remainder of my education (plus residencies and fellowships), I chose to discontinue my JD career. I have no regrets. So, if I won a multimillion-dollar prize today, I would not want to stop working at all. I truly enjoy my professional career. Very happy and satisfied 100%.

If you want to discuss this in further detail (i.e., JD career transition), please feel free to PM me.

Thank you.

 

[QofQuimica]

I typically work 60-80 hours a week...I think med school itself would be an improved QOL, but residency (I guess it depends on the type of residency) and actual practice might suck. I didn't realize medicine requires long hours doing paperwork.

But yeah, a part of me just wants to move to Thailand or some place warm and call it quits on FT/structured corporate life in the US. LOL. I've also been thinking of learning programming so I can work part time abroad doing contract work...crazy ideas, I guess. My spouse and I don't have a ton of money saved up right now, so not sure how feasible going PT in the US is at the moment, at least where we live. I'd totally move abroad if my spouse were up for it though, or at least to a cheaper location where I could work PT.

Are you retiring early because you hate your job/medicine or is it due to other factors?

Hate is a strong word. I both love and hate medicine. And it's burning me out. This isn't a good training path for someone who wants a work-life balance. Once you're an attending, sure, you have more control over your work life. But that's at least a decade into the future for a premed like you who hasn't even taken prereqs.

I think probably most if not all professional jobs require long hours and lots of paperwork. I spend many hours doing paperwork every week, including reading and signing charts of midlevels/trainees. Medicine is likely to get worse in that regard. You are correct that some of med school will offer you an improved QoL (especially the first year and the last six months of the fourth year), but you will have some rotations where you're taking call and working 80 hour weeks in med school, too. Not to mention that you're likely going to be taking out six figure loans to pay for that privilege. There's no free lunch, my friend.

 

[Zyra]

Hate is a strong word. I both love and hate medicine. And it's burning me out. This isn't a good training path for someone who wants a work-life balance. Once you're an attending, sure, you have more control over your work life. But that's at least a decade into the future for a premed like you who hasn't even taken prereqs.

I think probably most if not all professional jobs require long hours and lots of paperwork. I spend many hours doing paperwork every week, including reading and signing charts of midlevels/trainees. Medicine is likely to get worse in that regard. You are correct that some of med school will offer you an improved QoL (especially the first year and the last six months of the fourth year), but you will have some rotations where you're taking call and working 80 hour weeks in med school, too. Not to mention that you're likely going to be taking out six figure loans to pay for that privilege. There's no free lunch, my friend.

I was speaking with the kid of two prominent doctors who told her not to go into medicine because it's becoming more highly regulated and controlled by corporations...is that where the additional paperwork is coming from?

Yeah I don't know. A part of me just wants to find a federal government job and "work" 30 hour weeks while getting paid low six figures with pension, lol. Federal government jobs are practically impossible to get these days though, they receive something like 3000 applications per job opening.

Which parts are burning you out exactly? The work itself or the hours? Or both?

What attracted me to medicine is the idea of NOT having to do tons of paperwork - if you have to do that in addition to years of training and debt, then I'm not sure it's a great way to escape what I dislike about my job.

So you wouldn't have done medicine again, if you could turn back time knowing what you know now?

I've been considering the following recently: (1) take a lower paying job in law with better hours and more human interaction (unfortunately salaries in law are bimodal, so this might mean high five figures, not six figures), (2) get my CPA license and use that with my JD to do tax stuff, maybe go in house at a corporation to do tax accounting, or (3) pursue another field entirely, like medicine. Obviously the first two are the paths of "less" resistance for me....

 

[CyrilFiggis]

I was speaking with the kid of two prominent doctors who told her not to go into medicine because it's becoming more highly regulated and controlled by corporations...is that where the additional paperwork is coming from?

Yeah I don't know. A part of me just wants to find a federal government job and "work" 30 hour weeks while getting paid low six figures with pension, lol. Federal government jobs are practically impossible to get these days though, they receive something like 3000 applications per job opening.

Which parts are burning you out exactly? The work itself or the hours? Or both?

What attracted me to medicine is the idea of NOT having to do tons of paperwork - if you have to do that in addition to years of training and debt, then I'm not sure it's a great way to escape what I dislike about my job.

So you wouldn't have done medicine again, if you could turn back time knowing what you know now?

I've been considering the following recently: (1) take a lower paying job in law with better hours and more human interaction (unfortunately salaries in law are bimodal, so this might mean high five figures, not six figures), (2) get my CPA license and use that with my JD to do tax stuff, maybe go in house at a corporation to do tax accounting, or (3) pursue another field entirely, like medicine. Obviously the first two are the paths of "less" resistance for me....

The additional paperwork is coming directly from your current profession. Medical liability is massive not only from a patient perspective but also the insurance side.

Also, you're going to hear far more current doctors tell you not to pursue medicine because the critical voices are loudest. I have plenty of anecdotes from MDs who love what they do and were encouraging factors in my pre-medical years.

But I'm just going to come right out and say it, don't do MD. Based on everything you WANT in a career, medicine is not it. Sure you may shadow a cool doc and get stars in your eyes with all the cool science and tech, but it will most likely fade after 2 years of post-bacc. That's to say nothing of the financial costs and time spent in pursuit. Anyone who floats the idea of medicine because they hate their current career rarely makes it to the finish line.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

I know plenty of people that were making way less than that that regret the switch. It's far more about how you felt about the job you were doing and how you feel about being a doctor than it is about the finances.

 

[QofQuimica]

Which parts are burning you out exactly? The work itself or the hours? Or both?

It's not any one thing. It's the combo. Medicine is also not a career where you spend your life in a factory manufacturing widgets or in a cubicle manipulating spreadsheets. These are real people with real lives you're talking about. People are selfish, stupid, lazy, annoying, and cruel just as often as they are noble, altruistic, thoughtful, caring, and kind. I'm talking about your coworkers and patient families as well as the patients themselves. The very things that make medicine worth doing are also the things that make it so difficult.

What attracted me to medicine is the idea of NOT having to do tons of paperwork - if you have to do that in addition to years of training and debt, then I'm not sure it's a great way to escape what I dislike about my job.

In case it wasn't clear from my previous posts, medicine is definitely NOT a good way to escape what you dislike about your job.

So you wouldn't have done medicine again, if you could turn back time knowing what you know now?

These kinds of thought experiments are exercises in futility. You're basically asking me if I was already a physician, with a physician's knowledge and experiences, would I want to go to medical school? You see the problem with this question? Would you choose to go through law school again even though you're already a lawyer? If I went back in time, I would likely make the exact same decisions I made before because I would NOT know what I know now.

I've been considering the following recently: (1) take a lower paying job in law with better hours and more human interaction (unfortunately salaries in law are bimodal, so this might mean high five figures, not six figures), (2) get my CPA license and use that with my JD to do tax stuff, maybe go in house at a corporation to do tax accounting, or (3) pursue another field entirely, like medicine. Obviously the first two are the paths of "less" resistance for me....

What I did was cut my expenses (actually, keep them more or less the same) and go via route 1. Meaning, I'm staying in medicine but semi-retiring and choosing a lower-paying job that I think will be more enjoyable. I will make about 20% of my current income as a fellow (not counting moonlighting, which will make it more like 30-40%). I'm able to do this because I have no debt; my expenses are very low; and I've basically been saving about 2/3 of my gross income for the past two years (including employer 403b match). Most of the rest of that 1/3 goes to taxes, which will obviously be significantly less once I'm no longer making an attending salary. I will also be able to stop paying for my expensive individual disability insurance after this year.

The additional paperwork is coming directly from your current profession. Medical liability is massive not only from a patient perspective but also the insurance side.

Ouch. But true.

Also, you're going to hear far more current doctors tell you not to pursue medicine because the critical voices are loudest. I have plenty of anecdotes from MDs who love what they do and were encouraging factors in my pre-medical years.

Agree. Which is why shadowing and talking to a lot of people is the only sensible route to take when contemplating career changes. No one else can tell you what's right for you. They may not even know for sure what's right for THEM.

But I'm just going to come right out and say it, don't do MD. Based on everything you WANT in a career, medicine is not it. Sure you may shadow a cool doc and get stars in your eyes with all the cool science and tech, but it will most likely fade after 2 years of post-bacc. That's to say nothing of the financial costs and time spent in pursuit. Anyone who floats the idea of medicine because they hate their current career rarely makes it to the finish line.

Agree also. As things currently stand, OP, I feel pretty confident that YOU would likely not enjoy a career in medicine based on what you're saying you want out of a career. But you shouldn't take my or anyone else's word as gospel. Go shadow and talk to a bunch of docs or volunteer in a hospital for a while. It costs you nothing. Ultimately what matters in this decision is whether medicine is YOUR passion, not whether it's any of the rest of ours.

 

[ChE04]

I make $130k before the switch. I would do it again and I would do it sooner. Even waking up at 3:30a and getting home at 7p, I love it so far.

 

[Zyra]

It's not any one thing. It's the combo. Medicine is also not a career where you spend your life in a factory manufacturing widgets or in a cubicle manipulating spreadsheets. These are real people with real lives you're talking about. People are selfish, stupid, lazy, annoying, and cruel just as often as they are noble, altruistic, thoughtful, caring, and kind. I'm talking about your coworkers and patient families as well as the patients themselves. The very things that make medicine worth doing are also the things that make it so difficult.


In case it wasn't clear from my previous posts, medicine is definitely NOT a good way to escape what you dislike about your job.


These kinds of thought experiments are exercises in futility. You're basically asking me if I was already a physician, with a physician's knowledge and experiences, would I want to go to medical school? You see the problem with this question? Would you choose to go through law school again even though you're already a lawyer? If I went back in time, I would likely make the exact same decisions I made before because I would NOT know what I know now.


What I did was cut my expenses (actually, keep them more or less the same) and go via route 1. Meaning, I'm staying in medicine but semi-retiring and choosing a lower-paying job that I think will be more enjoyable. I will make about 20% of my current income as a fellow (not counting moonlighting, which will make it more like 30-40%). I'm able to do this because I have no debt; my expenses are very low; and I've basically been saving about 2/3 of my gross income for the past two years (including employer 403b match). Most of the rest of that 1/3 goes to taxes, which will obviously be significantly less once I'm no longer making an attending salary. I will also be able to stop paying for my expensive individual disability insurance after this year.

Honestly, I probably wouldn't go to law or any kind of grad school again (especially if I were paying for it) if I were 22 knowing what I know now - I'd probably do CS in college and program straight out or just work some regular 9 to 5 job as a financial analyst or accountant, etc. Most of my family are programmers/in the tech fields and they make decent livings working more or less regular hours - and they generally enjoy their jobs and there seems to be less burnout among programmers than in law/medicine. You can easily graduate debt free from college out of a decent CS program and land a decent salary straight out. It's also a lot easier to start your own business as a programmer, which I have thought about doing before - only human capital is really needed, no need for other capital expenditures. And because a lot of people do their own start ups, it's easier to move in and out of the corporate world. Plus doing contract work is easier and you can work from abroad, if you want to. The field is more ageist than others though, so not sure how feasible it'd be to start now.

Your new plan sounds awesome - will you have more free time to pursue your hobbies or will you just enjoy life more and relax? I've been thinking of doing something similar, but right now I still live in an expensive city so we'd have to move.

 

[QofQuimica]

Honestly, I probably wouldn't go to law or any kind of grad school again (especially if I were paying for it) if I were 22 knowing what I know now - I'd probably do CS in college and program straight out or just work some regular 9 to 5 job as a financial analyst or accountant, etc. Most of my family are programmers/in the tech fields and they make decent livings working more or less regular hours - and they generally enjoy their jobs and there seems to be less burnout among programmers than in law/medicine. You can easily graduate debt free from college out of a decent CS program and land a decent salary straight out. It's also a lot easier to start your own business as a programmer, which I have thought about doing before - only human capital is really needed, no need for other capital expenditures. And because a lot of people do their own start ups, it's easier to move in and out of the corporate world. Plus doing contract work is easier and you can work from abroad, if you want to. The field is more ageist than others though, so not sure how feasible it'd be to start now.

And yet, this board is full of computer scientists lamenting about how they wish they had more meaning in their careers, more human interaction, etc. and wanting to know what they have to do to get into medical school. No doubt if there is a "Student Lawyer Network" type of website analogous to this one, there are people out there (including some IT guys and CPAs) posting right this very minute about how they wish they could have YOUR job. Pretty much everyone thinks someone else's grass is greener than their own.

Your new plan sounds awesome - will you have more free time to pursue your hobbies or will you just enjoy life more and relax?

I'm not exactly sure how to answer your question. I'm doing this fellowship because I enjoy the subspecialty and want to study it FT. Doing a fellowship is not really relaxing (I don't think), though I anticipate it will be less stressful than what I'm currently doing. I also wouldn't say I don't "enjoy life" or have enough time to pursue my hobbies now. I just don't enjoy certain aspects of being at work, and I'm looking to minimize some of those downsides (or at least make the upsides positive enough that I find the downsides more tolerable). One of the considerations is to decrease my clinical contact time. I also will stop working as a nocturnist (though I will be taking home call as a fellow and will likely have to come in to the hospital at night sometimes).

I've been thinking of doing something similar, but right now I still live in an expensive city so we'd have to move.

There is no city on earth that I want to live in so badly that I'd be willing to live there at the cost of achieving my financial independence. And there are lots of good low cost options out there, even assuming you aren't willing to consider looking internationally. Not saying you should definitely move, but it's worth at least considering if you want to break out of the rat race and you can't afford to do that where you currently are. Of course, that's easy for me to say (and do), because I'm single and don't have to worry about anyone else's feelings. If your spouse is set on staying put in a high cost area/living an upper middle class lifestyle, that does complicate things. My ex was like that, and our irreconcilable views about finances is part of the reason why he's my ex.

 

[CyrilFiggis]

After reading this thread, I think I should drop out of med school and open up a business only selling signs that said "Greener Grass This Way ->".

The ven diagram of having a career that is financially rewarding, socially rewarding and mentally rewarding has very few center overlaps. People look at medicine because it fills the altruism (social) and financial segments. Still, it's much easier to "fix" your current situation by finding a better firm or new city than it is to make a 10+ year wholesale career change.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

And yet, this board is full of computer scientists lamenting about how they wish they had more meaning in their careers, more human interaction, etc. and wanting to know what they have to do to get into medical school. No doubt if there is a "Student Lawyer Network" type of website analogous to this one, there are people out there (including some IT guys and CPAs) posting right this very minute about how they wish they could have YOUR job. Pretty much everyone thinks someone else's grass is greener than their own.


I'm not exactly sure how to answer your question. I'm doing this fellowship because I enjoy the subspecialty and want to study it FT. Doing a fellowship is not really relaxing (I don't think), though I anticipate it will be less stressful than what I'm currently doing. I also wouldn't say I don't "enjoy life" or have enough time to pursue my hobbies now. I just don't enjoy certain aspects of being at work, and I'm looking to minimize some of those downsides (or at least make the upsides positive enough that I find the downsides more tolerable). One of the considerations is to decrease my clinical contact time. I also will stop working as a nocturnist (though I will be taking home call as a fellow and will likely have to come in to the hospital at night sometimes).


There is no city on earth that I want to live in so badly that I'd be willing to live there at the cost of achieving my financial independence. And there are lots of good low cost options out there, even assuming you aren't willing to consider looking internationally. Not saying you should definitely move, but it's worth at least considering if you want to break out of the rat race and you can't afford to do that where you currently are. Of course, that's easy for me to say (and do), because I'm single and don't have to worry about anyone else's feelings. If your spouse is set on staying put in a high cost area/living an upper middle class lifestyle, that does complicate things. My ex was like that, and our irreconcilable views about finances is part of the reason why he's my ex.

There is a "Student Lawyer Network" (different name though), and they tell anyone who will listen not to go into law unless you can get into a T14 or already have a job lined up. And maybe not even then.

Having read this whole thread, I'd say the OP should just get out of BigLaw.

 

[QofQuimica]

There is a "Student Lawyer Network" (different name though), and they tell anyone who will listen not to go into law unless you can get into a T14 or already have a job lined up. And maybe not even then.

IDK, being a lawyer seems pretty awesome in every John Grisham novel I've ever read. Well, maybe except the ones where the lead character gets involved with the wrong people and ends up being chased around the globe by bad guys trying to kill him or her. And if Reese Witherspoon could get into Harvard Law in "Legally Blonde," how hard could it really be to get into a top law school???

(Obviously sarcastic post for those whose sarcasm meter is nonfunctional.)

 

[Jlaw]

I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

Why are you going into medicine? If its what you really want to do go for it, if its to make more money then don't. You will burnout way before making 150k/yr.

 

[Zyra]

There is a "Student Lawyer Network" (different name though), and they tell anyone who will listen not to go into law unless you can get into a T14 or already have a job lined up. And maybe not even then.

Having read this whole thread, I'd say the OP should just get out of BigLaw.

To be fair, these lawyers/law students have a point, and I generally agree with them. People go to law school for the wrong reasons or just don't know what they are getting into. I'd highly recommend working as a paralegal before matriculating in law school.

I went to a top 14 law school and around a third of my law school friends (I'm only a few years out) are no longer lawyers. All of the ones who dropped out of law did Biglaw for a few years, whereas the ones who are in federal government/non profit are still practicing law (these jobs tend to have more trust fund kids than biglaw does though). One of my law school friends is actually in med school right now.

 

[Zyra]

And yet, this board is full of computer scientists lamenting about how they wish they had more meaning in their careers, more human interaction, etc. and wanting to know what they have to do to get into medical school. No doubt if there is a "Student Lawyer Network" type of website analogous to this one, there are people out there (including some IT guys and CPAs) posting right this very minute about how they wish they could have YOUR job. Pretty much everyone thinks someone else's grass is greener than their own.

I guess, but lawyers (and dentists and doctors) have among the highest rates of depression. The stats don't lie - these professions tend to have more miserable people than other professions.

There is no city on earth that I want to live in so badly that I'd be willing to live there at the cost of achieving my financial independence. And there are lots of good low cost options out there, even assuming you aren't willing to consider looking internationally. Not saying you should definitely move, but it's worth at least considering if you want to break out of the rat race and you can't afford to do that where you currently are. Of course, that's easy for me to say (and do), because I'm single and don't have to worry about anyone else's feelings. If your spouse is set on staying put in a high cost area/living an upper middle class lifestyle, that does complicate things. My ex was like that, and our irreconcilable views about finances is part of the reason why he's my ex.

I think we'll move eventually since it's not sustainable to live here unless you have millions in the bank. I just thought that I'd be more settled by the age of 30 than I am...

 

[mrjbb]

I'm an established business owner...I take home somewhere around 620k /yr. I like business, I appreciate the freedom it provides at times, but I also work well over 80hrs per week.

I'm in the legal system, I'll just leave it at that. Well before I started to make anywhere near this amount, I remember working at Mattress Firm over a decade ago making basically what was $5/hr, dreaming of going into medicine. It's something I've never been able to shake, despite the things my business has allowed me and my family to experience, I'm in the process of finishing up my pre-reqs.

I have a wife and 4 children. I do not plan on shutting the business down while attending med school, but I'd certainly be taking a full step back from it. I have several employees that can oversee the company and manage it for me. I can probably pay for med school without taking out any loans.

Point is, money isn't everything in life, despite the temporary happiness it can bring, at least in my instance. There are many times I am absolutely miserable, mostly because of the type of industry I'm in. And more often than I'd like, I start to hate my job and my situation all over again.

I'd give it up to make 150k as a doc. That's my point of view. The purpose of this post is to let you know that you're not alone in your decision, and that's coming from someone who obviously has a lot to loose.

I'm sure there are a ton of professionals out there making an excellent income, but looking to make the switch.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

To be fair, these lawyers/law students have a point, and I generally agree with them. People go to law school for the wrong reasons or just don't know what they are getting into. I'd highly recommend working as a paralegal before matriculating in law school.

I went to a top 14 law school and around a third of my law school friends (I'm only a few years out) are no longer lawyers. All of the ones who dropped out of law did Biglaw for a few years, whereas the ones who are in federal government/non profit are still practicing law (these jobs tend to have more trust fund kids than biglaw does though). One of my law school friends is actually in med school right now.

Right, except I never said they were wrong. But my dad and step mother went to a non-T14, both got jobs with the Feds, then opened their own practice a few years later. They weren't the top of their class, and they weren't the only ones. But n=2, and this was also a decade ago, so things are probably a bit different now. I generally agree with the sentiment, but if you weigh your options and have a viable (and realistic) plan, I don't think it's quite the doom and gloom they say it is.

 

[QofQuimica]

I guess, but lawyers (and dentists and doctors) have among the highest rates of depression. The stats don't lie - these professions tend to have more miserable people than other professions.

No, stats don't lie, but they can definitely manipulate (and be massaged). What's the cause here, and what's the effect? Do high stress professions make otherwise happy people depressed, or do people who tend toward depression also tend to gravitate toward high stress professions? I'd argue it's more likely to be the latter case. As an illustration, why is that you're thinking about medicine as an alternative career, and not, say, social work, or nursing, or teaching, or EMS (all of which are careers that involve helping people and require much less training time and expense than medical school)?

ETR policing, since cops also make it onto the top ten list of suicidal careers.

I think we'll move eventually since it's not sustainable to live here unless you have millions in the bank. I just thought that I'd be more settled by the age of 30 than I am...

I'm 41 and still not "settled." Heh.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No, stats don't lie, but they can definitely manipulate (and be massaged). What's the cause here, and what's the effect? Do high stress professions make otherwise happy people depressed, or do people who tend toward depression also tend to gravitate toward high stress professions? I'd argue it's more likely to be the latter case. As an illustration, why is that you're thinking about medicine as an alternative career, and not, say, social work, or nursing, or policing, or teaching, or EMS (all of which are careers that involve helping people and require much less training time and expense than medical school)?


I'm 41 and still not "settled." Heh.

I may have misunderstood, but are you saying those alternative careers are less stressful than medicine?

 

[QofQuimica]

I may have misunderstood, but are you saying those alternative careers are less stressful than medicine?

No. I'm making a comment about the fact that the only "viable" alternative to the OP's current high-stakes post-graduate professional career is....another high-stakes post-graduate professional career. And the fact that, given that these types of careers tend to attract certain types of people, it's maybe not surprising that they have certain personality or psychological attributes in common. I'm arguing that careers like medicine or law may be attracting people who have a tendency toward depression to them, rather than turning what were previously happy people into miserable ones. You don't hear about too many social workers committing suicide, even though most of the ones I know are virtual saints considering what they put up with at work and how little they get paid to do it. And certainly your point is well-taken that their job is hardly stress-free. :-/

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No. I'm making a comment about the fact that the only "viable" alternative to the OP's current high-stakes post-graduate professional career is....another high-stakes post-graduate professional career. And the fact that, given that these types of careers tend to attract certain types of people, it's maybe not surprising that they have certain personality or psychological attributes in common. I'm arguing that careers like medicine or law may be attracting people who have a tendency toward depression to them, rather than turning what were previously happy people into miserable ones. You don't hear about too many social workers committing suicide, even though most of the ones I know are virtual saints considering what they put up with at work and how little they get paid to do it. And certainly your point is well-taken that their job is hardly stress-free. :-/

Gotcha. I'd have left police and EMS out. Suicide is a leading cause of death in police officers. I'm not sure about EMS, but my bro in law is a paramedic and sees a lot of ****ed up stuff. Otherwise I agree with you.

 

[QofQuimica]

Gotcha. I'd have left police and EMS out. Suicide is a leading cause of death in police officers. I'm not sure about EMS, but my bro in law is a paramedic and sees a lot of ****ed up stuff. Otherwise I agree with you.

Fair enough. Took the police out since I googled top ten careers for suicide rates, and you are correct about cops (but not EMS, interestingly) being on it.

ETA: Here is the list, in case anyone's interested. I'm clearly doomed: a prior scientist who is now a physician, earned a CFP certificate, and wishes she were a pharmacist. Snicker.

10. Scientists
9. Pharmacists
8. Farm Workers
7. Electricians
6. Real Estate Agents
5. Police
4. Lawyers
3. Financial Workers
2. Dentists
1. Physicians

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Fair enough. Took the police out since I googled top ten careers for suicide rates, and you are correct about cops (but not EMS, interestingly) being on it.

Interesting. Maybe because police have easier access to guns and deal not only with all the medical crap but also the crime. Anyway, sorry for getting off topic.

 

[QofQuimica]

Interesting. Maybe because police have easier access to guns and deal not only with all the medical crap but also the crime. Anyway, sorry for getting off topic.

No military on the list either, and they have plenty of guns and see lots of horrible stuff. On the other side, I was surprised to see electricians on there. The article I read hypothesized that it might be because their work is so cyclical with booms and busts in the economy, but the same is true for, say, construction workers, which are not on there.

All kidding aside, I don't think this is actually off-topic. It does illustrate the point I was trying to make that, just as with the OP, the kinds of careers I was attracted to are also all on this list. And maybe it's not coincidence that there are many unhappy people in the fields on this list, because these specific careers tend to be attractive to a certain type of (depressed) personality.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

No military on the list either, and they have plenty of guns and see lots of horrible stuff. On the other side, I was surprised to see electricians on there. The article I read hypothesized that it might be because their work is so cyclical with booms and busts in the economy, but the same is true for, say, construction workers, which are not on there.

Our access to guns is different. I'm a gunner and an armorer, so I have unrestricted access. But the majority of the crew only has access to them while armed up, and you go on the do not issue list if you are on meds for depression (this is all Navy specific).

That said, suicide happens. Two people on the ship across from me killed themselves two days apart. One shot herself after arming up (wasn't on meds and never sought help) and the other hung himself in a fan room.

I think I read somewhere that about one vet/active duty member per day commits suicide. Not enough to get on that list apparently. That's a good thing, I guess. Our job is pretty stressful sometimes, for many reasons.

All kidding aside, I don't think this is actually off-topic. It does illustrate the point I was trying to make that, just as with the OP, the kinds of careers I was attracted to are also all on this list. And maybe it's not coincidence that there are many unhappy people in the fields on this list, because these specific careers tend to be attractive to a certain type of (depressed) personality.

True.

 

[Law2Doc]

... A part of me just wants to find a federal government job and "work" 30 hour weeks while getting paid low six figures with pension, lol. Federal government jobs are practically impossible to get these days though, they receive something like 3000 applications per job opening.

What attracted me to medicine is the idea of NOT having to do tons of paperwork - if you have to do that in addition to years of training and debt, then I'm not sure it's a great way to escape what I dislike about my job.

So you wouldn't have done medicine again, if you could turn back time knowing what you know now?

I've been considering the following recently: (1) take a lower paying job in law with better hours and more human interaction (unfortunately salaries in law are bimodal, so this might mean high five figures, not six figures), (2) get my CPA license and use that with my JD to do tax stuff, maybe go in house at a corporation to do tax accounting, or (3) pursue another field entirely... Obviously the first two are the paths of "less" resistance for me....

The old adage, which has a lot of truth to it, is that if you can picture yourself happy in a job other than medicine, you should probably do that other job.

Medicine is a great field for the right person. It's a horrendously bad choice for someone just looking to try something different but still be a professional, for someone who wants to do less paperwork or have better hours, or is worried about trading in their high net worth job.

Much of what you've posted doesn't sound to me like someone who is attracted to medicine but rather someone trying to get out of a particular law job. And so you'd likely be jumping out of a frying pan into a hotter fire in this instance.

Go shadow some doctors and volunteer in a healthcare setting before considering this further.

 

[Zyra]

Right, except I never said they were wrong. But my dad and step mother went to a non-T14, both got jobs with the Feds, then opened their own practice a few years later. They weren't the top of their class, and they weren't the only ones. But n=2, and this was also a decade ago, so things are probably a bit different now. I generally agree with the sentiment, but if you weigh your options and have a viable (and realistic) plan, I don't think it's quite the doom and gloom they say it is.

Damn. Fed gov jobs are notoriously hard to get now....not kidding when I say each job opening gets like 3,000 applications lol. Everyone is trying to get a fed gov job these days.

 

[libertyyne]

I'm going to stop doing medicine/working a professional job long before I have $2 million. I only became interested in early retirement after I went into medicine.... 😛

All kidding aside, you should explore both options. Do some shadowing of physicians, and also look into other possible careers in law. That will help you make an informed decision. But I will tell you that if you're looking for better QoL, I highly recommend *against* you undertaking a decade of medical training, during which your QoL will be given relatively low priority. Not to mention that a medical career also requires odious amounts of "sitting at a desk for insanely long hours doing paperwork."

In my case, I seriously am going to semi-retire next year at age 42 on far less than $2 million. I'll be doing a fellowship and anticipate likely working PT afterward. Maybe semi-retirement or going PT would be a good possibility for you to consider too, if you don't need the income from a FT balls-to-the-walls job.

At what age did you matriculate?

 

[QofQuimica]

At what age did you matriculate?

31. Became an attending at 39.

 

[libertyyne]

31. Became an attending at 39.

I am in a similar boat. My wife and I share a similar world view, We would like to early semi-retire but continue to practice medicine. I believe part of the desire to become a physician stems from completing something difficult and the satisfaction related to that and improving outcomes is a reward different from monetary compensation. It will probably open up some good work life balance opportunities including part time or week on week off depending on the specialty.

BTW. Your MCAT guide was really amazing. I referenced it more than a few times and did well even while working full time.

Lol. I'd be up for that if the spouse were. That doesn't seem like enough to last 20 years for a couple though, but I guess you could maybe do law part-time or teach English part-time and just hang out the rest of the day/do outdoorsy stuff.

That is 100K if you are withdrawing at 5% while maintaining the capital as the average returns are somewhere between 5-7% of the market.

 

[Law2Doc]

...It will probably open up some good work life balance opportunities including part time or week on week off depending on the specialty...

Saying medicine is an opportunity for good work balance is like comparing scuba diving to putting your feet in the water. You are likely underestimating the demands of this job. It's a challenge and a juggling act, not something that lets you dabble as a semi retirement.

 

[libertyyne]

Saying medicine is an opportunity for good work balance is like comparing scuba diving to putting your feet in the water. You are likely underestimating the demands of this job. It's a challenge and a juggling act, not something that lets you dabble as a semi retirement.

Fair enough but so is any high stress position. Being an etc attending working per diem part time, or anesthesia part time although demanding is not the pinnacle of human endurance. My parents worked two blue collar jobs throughout their lives. they would leave for work at 4 am and be back home at 11 p to only rinse and repeat having only sunday off for years. Compared to that working 14 hour shifts for a week and having a week off after that seems like a vacation.

 

[Law2Doc]

Fair enough but so is any high stress position. Being an etc attending working per diem part time, or anesthesia part time although demanding is not the pinnacle of human endurance. My parents worked two blue collar jobs throughout their lives. they would leave for work at 4 am and be back home at 11 p to only rinse and repeat having only sunday off for years. Compared to that working 14 hour shifts for a week and having a week off after that seems like a vacation.

It's different though, and almost certainly will not work out quite the way you are picturing. There are very few physician jobs where you truly get to leave everything at work at the end of the day. And I wouldn't go this route thinking it's going to be easy to find employers looking for you to be semi-retired or part time from day one. Those jobs sometimes happen, but frankly part time is harder to get than people on SDN like to believe, and per diem is more of a default than a desirable path. Don't go this route if your goal isn't to be a full time doctor.

 

[libertyyne]

It's different though, and almost certainly will not work out quite the way you are picturing. There are very few physician jobs where you truly get to leave everything at work at the end of the day. And I wouldn't go this route thinking it's going to be easy to find employers looking for you to be semi-retired or part time from day one. Those jobs sometimes happen, but frankly part time is harder to get than people on SDN like to believe, and per diem is more of a default than a desirable path. Don't go this route if your goal isn't to be a full time doctor.

I agree with your sentiment. I will, in all honesty, work till I am 65 mostly out of the desire to work. You have to be a gluten for punishment to even think about becoming an MD. However, that does not mean being a physician will exclude me from working part time. When there is demand for workforce and you cant fill the positions employers tend to play ball. Just a quick search on job boards results in this

http://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=physician+part+time 54K hits.

And

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/462176/work-life.html
"In fact, more physicians than ever are choosing part-timework. In Washington state, a recent study of primary care physicians showed that close to one in three practiced part-time."

Not many professional jobs let you turn off completely. Being engrossed in a project, deadline, case, or patient comes with the turf.

But Physicians bear partial responsibility of stigmatizing part time work. Especially per Diem work. what is wrong with them? what are they hiding? they must be incompetent! They probably cant hold down a job!

But even working full time I think the flexibility that is becoming the new norm may lead to interesting ways to balance work and life. Its nice to think of pie in the sky things sometimes, becoming an MD was a pie in the sky dream as well, and I just completed my first interview. I understand that I will have no life for the next 15 years. But the joke is on the establishment since I dont have a life right now.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

But the joke is on the establishment since I dont have a life right now.

Amen to that.

 

[DoctorLane]

I'm a lawyer who is debating whether or not to go to medicine. The big downside is that I am 30 years old already. I have no law school debt though and some savings (thank you large firm work).

For those who gave up high salaries - do you regret doing it for medicine?

Also if you will probably inherit 2 million or so in your 40s, would you still bother doing medicine/working a professional job?

I thought this was an interesting thread and figured I would chime in since I have committed to doing exactly what the OP mentioned. And then some.

Speaking from experience, reducing annual income from 150K+ to zero in order to pursue medicine as a career, should be driven by passion and a strong commitment to others.
If finances are a part of the motivation to switch occupations, I would highly advise choosing a field that has more growth potential and less stress. There are many factors to consider as to why I would suggest this, but for me personally, the occupational transition has nothing to do with financial gain.

I am currently in the application cycle, so feel free to ask me any questions, and best of luck!

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree with your sentiment. I will, in all honesty, work till I am 65 mostly out of the desire to work. You have to be a gluten for punishment to even think about becoming an MD. However, that does not mean being a physician will exclude me from working part time. When there is demand for workforce and you cant fill the positions employers tend to play ball. Just a quick search on job boards results in this

http://www.simplyhired.com/search?q=physician+part+time 54K hits.

And

https://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/462176/work-life.html
"In fact, more physicians than ever are choosing part-timework. In Washington state, a recent study of primary care physicians showed that close to one in three practiced part-time."

Not many professional jobs let you turn off completely. Being engrossed in a project, deadline, case, or patient comes with the turf.

But Physicians bear partial responsibility of stigmatizing part time work. Especially per Diem work. what is wrong with them? what are they hiding? they must be incompetent! They probably cant hold down a job!

But even working full time I think the flexibility that is becoming the new norm may lead to interesting ways to balance work and life. Its nice to think of pie in the sky things sometimes, becoming an MD was a pie in the sky dream as well, and I just completed my first interview. I understand that I will have no life for the next 15 years. But the joke is on the establishment since I dont have a life right now.

Job posts don't tell you it's a good job or one you can even competently do in the first half of your career. Every doctor on here knows horror stories of someone who jumped on the per diem "urgent care" train, got thrown into the deep end with inadequate training or colleague support, was quickly thrown under the bus as the "outsider" when anything went bad, and spent a lot more time with lawyers than they'd like-- these positions are stigmatized by the profession for good reason because frankly doctoring is a pretty intense, high stakes job and you either learn with a safety net and helpful colleagues or you get thrown to the wolves at a place that expects you to show up with your own coverage and is happy to throw you under the bus as the outsider. It's not a high brow - low brow bias thing but a dubious career choice thing.

And so for this reason in this country, it's a job you take only if you can't get a better one. As for "part time" non per diem, most of those ads are unfortunately "bait and switch". Most part time in medicine goes to old partners who have already paid their dues and young women with childcare obligation who after a year or two have proven they are just too valuable to let walk out the door. Coming out of residency you are neither of these things. It's very rare to come out of residency into such a job. Employers don't want this -- overhead Is cheaper if you have one person working longer hours so this is a signal that the job is not something they can fill with a full timer -- not a good sign.

And frankly you wouldn't want to start out part time because you are still on a steep learning curve after residency and you'll benefit from at least a few more years of seasoning, paying your dues. Residency only seems long until you get toward the end of it and realize you are still at the early training phase. So you really want to find a place where you'll work hard on complex things surrounded by good and helpful colleagues for a few years until you get good. Working scant hours as the outsider leads to a bad cap on your training.

Yes I have my own biases, but I am much further down the rabbit hole so please don't tell me these biases are unfounded based on some questionable want ads you googled. (Physicians BTW don't find jobs on websites such as "simply hired" or "monster" etc so this already should get your level of skepticism up - we only look at specialty organization postings, and what you've found are all recruiter posts, many without real jobs attached).

Going into medicine with the intention of other than being a full time doctor is a bad idea and deviating from that course early on is something that sounds much more attainable and viable to a premed than it does to one in the profession. If you go into this field you should realistically expect to work full time, should expect the jobs to have more demands than advertised and should understand you are tilting the work life balance much further to the work side of things than most appreciate. You will constantly try to squeeze things in around medicine, with variable success, not the other way round on this route.

It's not a bad thing but it's a necessary evil. This isn't a good job to dabble in because the breadth of knowledge is vast and you need to log hours to be good at it, sort of like "currency" and piloting-- you wouldn't want to fly with the guy who takes his plane out a couple of times a year over the guy who flies daily.

 

[Mad Jack]

Fair enough. Took the police out since I googled top ten careers for suicide rates, and you are correct about cops (but not EMS, interestingly) being on it.

ETA: Here is the list, in case anyone's interested. I'm clearly doomed: a prior scientist who is now a physician, earned a CFP certificate, and wishes she were a pharmacist. Snicker.

10. Scientists
9. Pharmacists
8. Farm Workers
7. Electricians
6. Real Estate Agents
5. Police
4. Lawyers
3. Financial Workers
2. Dentists
1. Physicians

Oh my god it's like a list of everything I've wanted to do since I started college...

 

[wonder12]

Damn. Fed gov jobs are notoriously hard to get now....not kidding when I say each job opening gets like 3,000 applications lol. Everyone is trying to get a fed gov job these days.

Sounds like applying to medical school 😉