Not submitting CC coursework

[dmplz]

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if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

 

[FlowLimited]

if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

Yeah, you're right, maybe they won't find out. This is a great way to start down the path towards becoming a physician.

 

[futureboy]

if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

Never lie or exaggerate the truth. Never fail to disclose college coursework, or criminal convictions. If you think someone won't find out, you're wrong. And when they do, you'll have your offer withdrawn, you'll be expelled from medical school, or you'll have your medical license denied or revoked.

It sounds like you lack the maturity, and the moral/ethical character and fitness, to be a physician.

 

[flip26]

Yeah, you're right, maybe they won't find out. This is a great way to start down the path towards becoming a physician.

👍

 

[BigRedBeta]

1)There are national student clearinghouses that can be checked for previous enrollments for students - especially easy when you give AMCAS your social security number.

2) It's unethical.

 

[BlueElmo]

I think it's up to you, OP, to decide what to do. I hope everything works out for the best.

 

[riceman04]

Never lie or exaggerate the truth. Never fail to disclose college coursework, or criminal convictions. If you think someone won't find out, you're wrong. And when they do, you'll have your offer withdrawn, you'll be expelled from medical school, or you'll have your medical license denied or revoked.

It sounds like you lack the maturity, and the moral/ethical character and fitness, to be a physician.

While it is evident the OP is straddling the line of morality (when it comes to hiding the truth), I doubt you are in a position to judge him/her. I am sure there are many issues, on which your own character is predicated, that are questionable at best. I suggest you keep the judgment to a minimum and worry about positioning yourself to become a physician.

I love premeds who stand on their pedestal and preach the code of morality/ethics to others and fail to see their own shortcomings. Good job potential future colleague...good job!!!

 

[riceman04]

if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

Ultimately it is your decision; however, keep in mind the potential ramifications of your actions. Play the what if game with yourself and ponder over the potential scenarios. Is it worth the risk? Keep in mind you are judge of the potential risk, to which you have no basis for comparison.

 

[BlueElmo]

While it is evident the OP is straddling the line of morality (when it comes to hiding the truth), I doubt you are in a position to judge him/her. I am sure there are many issues, on which your own character is predicated, that are questionable at best. I suggest you keep the judgment to a minimum and worry about positioning yourself to become a physician.

I love premeds who stand on their pedestal and preach the code of morality/ethics to others and fail to see their own shortcomings. Good job potential future colleague...good job!!!

👍. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[146233]

Moral and ethical posturing aside, the consequences for knowingly falsifying (by omission) your credentials are severe. Most schools will cancel interviews, rescind offers of admission, or, if already matriculated, throw you out of school. Not worth it. Good luck.

 

[DocDrakeRamoray]

Hey, maybe if you don't send it and get accepted and then thrown out, someone waitlisted and more honest can get your spot in med school 😛

 

[PepperMD]

I give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he/she is just asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity. No need to start flaming them when you don't know their true motives. In any event, leaving all questions of right or wrong aside, one can imagine if somehow this slips by until 4th year, maybe even after matching, and then is discovered. Then you've got potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and no career prospects for a stupid bad grade that easily could have been explained away in an interview or personal statement as simple immaturity/poor time management which you have since improved upon. Pretty dumb.

 

[sindadel]

How do people KEEP posting this question after the 21987381927 similar questions in pre-allo in the less than a year since I joined SDN?

 

[BTC]

1.) How many community college courses did you take in high school?
2.) Are the grades that bad?

I cannot think of many situations where it would be worth the risk to cover up a few B's you received in CC courses while you were in high school. First, you were in high school. Second, you should have four additional years of coursework which means those grades aren't going to move your GPA very much anyway.

 

[dmplz]

1.) How many community college courses did you take in high school?
2.) Are the grades that bad?

Well, lets just say I have around 3.65. The input of those grades that I took while in high-school would shoot my gpa to a whopping 3.37-3.4. Certainly it isn't worth it. But it just sucks that a couple of high school courses that I took would have an affect that would undermine my work as an undergrad. Now I know a 3.37-3.4 isn't bad or great either. But the fact that I have to spend some more time in raising my gpa along with the costs of tuition etc. due to some stupid high school courses just made me bring this question up. Sorry if my immoral hypothetical question riled anyone up.

 

[bleeker10]

I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

I submitted some grades I took 4-5 years ago that were C's, D's, and F's. It tanked my gpa from around a 3.4 to a 2.55 on AMCAS. I didn't get accepted into any of my top schools because of the low GPA. I don't feel bad about it at all because I was honest and ethical and have nothing to hide. I was still accepted into a med school and I'm gonna be a doctor. At the end of the day, I will still be doing what I want to do without having to hide anything.

 

[BlueElmo]

I give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he/she is just asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity. No need to start flaming them when you don't know their true motives. In any event, leaving all questions of right or wrong aside, one can imagine if somehow this slips by until 4th year, maybe even after matching, and then is discovered. Then you've got potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and no career prospects for a stupid bad grade that easily could have been explained away in an interview or personal statement as simple immaturity/poor time management which you have since improved upon. Pretty dumb.

But if your GPA drop due to CC grades are really severe, will medical schools even give you a chance at an interview?

 

[ODorDO]

hey OP were any of those prereq or science classes?

 

[dmplz]

hey OP were any of those prereq or science classes?

They were a mixture of science and non sciences courses. None of the science courses I took were prereqs. I took the equivalent of High School Chemistry and Algebra 2 at this community college along with some other non science courses for fun. I took all these courses through a program at my high school that allowed me to fulfill some of the prereqs for college. Little did I know it would have an affect on me now.

 

[TehDoc]

All college coursework. Either do it right or lie to the medical schools.

 

[Revilla]

But if your GPA drop due to CC grades are really severe, will medical schools even give you a chance at an interview?

I'm not sure that question is relevant to the discussion. The rules are clear -- report ALL college coursework. No amount of justification is going to change the fact that if you don't report all college coursework, you're cheating. If you're found out, you may never get into a med school, period. If you're found out after you receive an acceptance, that acceptance may be revoked. If you're found out once you start school, you may be asked to leave, even if you're in your third or fourth year.

OP, why would you take that chance just because your GPA will fall to a 3.3-3.4? There are plenty of people who get in with that GPA every single year. You're talking about taking a big risk that could come back to bite you in the butt ten-fold. I think you'd have to be crazy to do such a thing.

 

[aebvd97]

Report all grades. ALL grades. End of discussion.

 

[DMXmedicalstude]

I'm not sure that question is relevant to the discussion.

Obviously, it's relevant, or why would he have posted in the first place?

Seriously, you pre-med people are way too anal at times. I had to LOL at some of your holy-do the right thing posts. Look, OP, don't worry about not reporthing them. If you are not a fool trumpeting what you did to the whole world, they won't find out. Trust me. I have been in the same boat. PM me, and I will explain why.

 

[BlueElmo]

^^

Yes, thank you.

 

[atomi]

-

 

[BlueElmo]

It's the community college. If you went down there and had a chat, those classes would be gone from your records by the end of the day if you really wanted.

The ethical thing to do is follow the rules since most of medicine is about following the rules. I recommend following the rules.

That being said, I think it's ridiculous to never be able to start over in life, which is what this system prevents. If you had a 2.0 GPA in a bachelor's program, and wanted to start over with a new bachelor's program and get a 4.0, then the 4.0 is the GPA that should be on your AMCAS. The person who slacked and never went to college, and waited till 30 to apply is at a better advantage than the person who went to college at 18, struggled, and decided to start over at 30. It's a very screwed up and very unfair system.

Would CC really eliminate those grades? I mean they are part of my permanent record, so I don't know if they will.
And your second half of the post basically mirrors my feelings exactly.

 

[146233]

Seriously, you pre-med people are way too anal at times. I had to LOL at some of your holy-do the right thing posts. Look, OP, don't worry about not reporthing them. If you are not a fool trumpeting what you did to the whole world, they won't find out. Trust me. I have been in the same boat. PM me, and I will explain why.

^^

Yes, thank you.

I am not pre-med. Being honest and upfront, even in the face of bad news, is not "anal" or "holy-do the right thing." It's how people expect you to behave as a medical student and a physician. I further believe that not reporting college-level courses that you've taken is an extraordinarily bad idea. Just because DMXmedicalstude (or anyone else) seems to have gotten away with something is no reason to think you will, too, OP.

I had some very bad grades on my record - in pre-req courses, no less. I put some time between those grades and now, did very well in all my courses since then, and received multiple interviews and acceptances. You can "start over," so to speak, and schools do understand that things happen: people get off to rough starts, life circumstances change, folks have rocky semesters, etc. Starting a career in medicine with a lie is not the way to go.

That said, it's your potential career. If you want to take the risky advice if someone you don't know who has no stake in your individual outcome, by all means do you please and good luck. 🙂

 

[Jolie South]

I am not pre-med. Being honest and upfront, even in the face of bad news, is not "anal" or "holy-do the right thing." It's how people expect you to behave as a medical student and a physician. I further believe that not reporting college-level courses that you've taken is an extraordinarily bad idea. Just because DMXmedicalstude (or anyone else) seems to have gotten away with something is no reason to think you will, too, OP.

That said, it's your potential career. If you want to take the risky advice if someone you don't know who has no stake in your individual outcome, by all means do you please.

agreed.

 

[Revilla]

Obviously, it's relevant, or why would he have posted in the first place?

Whether or not the ends justify the means in the case of fraudulently representing yourself to medical schools is absolutely irrelevant. If you want to do it, fine, be a fool, but don't kid yourself into thinking that if you have a good enough reason, it's the right thing to do.

Seriously, you pre-med people are way too anal at times.

You call it anal. I call it moral. I wouldn't lie on AMCAS application anymore than I'd lie on a contract.

I had to LOL at some of your holy-do the right thing posts. Look, OP, don't worry about not reporthing them. If you are not a fool trumpeting what you did to the whole world, they won't find out. Trust me. I have been in the same boat. PM me, and I will explain why.

Yes, OP, by all means take a page out of the book of corrupted values. But when you get kicked out of med school with 100K in debt, remember who you took lessons from.

 

[Revilla]

It's the community college. If you went down there and had a chat, those classes would be gone from your records by the end of the day if you really wanted.

That's debatable as most schools won't erase records that recent. But even if the OP was successful in doing that, it doesn't answer the ethical questions since AMCAS requires that you report grades, whether or not they've been erased. Obviously, if you have no ethics, you could lie, but if you're caught the consequences will be severe.

That being said, I think it's ridiculous to never be able to start over in life, which is what this system prevents. If you had a 2.0 GPA in a bachelor's program, and wanted to start over with a new bachelor's program and get a 4.0, then the 4.0 is the GPA that should be on your AMCAS. The person who slacked and never went to college, and waited till 30 to apply is at a better advantage than the person who went to college at 18, struggled, and decided to start over at 30. It's a very screwed up and very unfair system.

No, that isn't true. The system works, if you give it a chance. Read the story about OldManDave who used to frequent these forums. He left college with a 1.8 GPA in his 20s, returned later in life and ended up getting in to med school, despite a low GPA. I have a friend myself who graduated college with a 2.6 GPA, then went into the military and returned a few years later, did a post-bacc which only bumped his GPA slightly (below 3.0), got into med school and is now at Mayo doing residency.

Schools understand that people make mistakes. They get that not everyone will start college ready to study and learn, that not everyone will have an unblemished record. If you give them a chance to see the changes you've made, they will understand.

 

[basketballakev]

Schools understand that people make mistakes. They get that not everyone will start college ready to study and learn, that not everyone will have an unblemished record. If you give them a chance to see the changes you've made, they will understand.

They won't understand when you get screened out via pre-secondary that's for sure. OP I've heard of people not submitting some high school bs classes that they took at a post secondary institution and still get into med school. They currently are having a fine stressful Med Student life. Do what you need to do OP.

 

[Revilla]

They won't understand when you get screened out via pre-secondary that's for sure.

I have never heard of a school screening someone out pre-secondary because of a 3.4 GPA. Have you?

 

[146233]

Do what you need to do OP.

Yes, and when you make a mistake that harms a patient, falsify the medical record. Do what you've got to do, right?

 

[NotAndrew]

Why risk it? If you cover something up and are later discovered you will face terrible penalties. Its like committing purjery to get out of an $80 speeding ticket.

 

[virusgirl]

OP, I was so not thrilled when I realized that I had to submit a transcript for the anatomy class I took as a HS sophomore -- literally the only C I have ever received in my life. But I sucked it up and did it anyway, and since it was only one class, it didn't end up dragging my GPA down that much. Your situation is a little different than mine because you took more classes, and your GPA dips more as a result, but we still aren't talking about a 3.7 --> 2.4 drop or anything.

It stinks, but personal integrity and accountability are expected of doctors, and that means owning up to all of your grades, even the bad ones. That being said, as basketballakev pointed out, a low GPA can get you screened out of consideration. I don't think your GPA will be so low that that will be a problem, but even if your GPA was below that cut-off level, that would only mean that you need to be more selective about the schools you choose to apply to. Not all places screen. And while some schools are very numbers-driven and will toss your app if you have any red flags anywhere, others are not terribly interested in grades you got while in HS. Not a single person, at any of my interviews, said "Virusgirl, what's with that C?" It was a non-issue.

 

[futureboy]

While it is evident the OP is straddling the line of morality (when it comes to hiding the truth), I doubt you are in a position to judge him/her. I am sure there are many issues, on which your own character is predicated, that are questionable at best. I suggest you keep the judgment to a minimum and worry about positioning yourself to become a physician.

I love premeds who stand on their pedestal and preach the code of morality/ethics to others and fail to see their own shortcomings. Good job potential future colleague...good job!!!

This is an interesting post. You say the OP is "straddling the line of morality." If the deliberate omission of previous college coursework, because it will lower the GPA, doesn't cross the line of morality, I'm not sure what does. This is not about my personal moral code. Frankly, I think it's unfair to count grades for college classes taken in high school at all. However, if the coursework has to be disclosed, it has to be disclosed, no matter what the OP, or I, think.

Ethics are a big part of practicing any profession, especially medicine. Do we want doctors to follow the rules, or do we want them to only follow the rules they agree with? Yes, I will "judge" the OP, not by my personal ethical standards, but by the medical profession's ethical standards.

I'm not sure why, or on what basis, you would imply that my character is "questionable at best." If you are saying I'm not perfect, well, no one is.

Also, I am not a typical premed. I am a 15 year attorney considering a career change. Despite some popular opinion to the contrary, most lawyers are very ethical. We are governed by a strict code of ethics. So I do, in fact, know a bit about the subject. I agree that in some situations there can be reasonable debate about whether conduct is ethical. In this case, though, the intentional failure to disclose college coursework is unethical by any objective standard.

 

[futureboy]

I give the OP the benefit of the doubt that he/she is just asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity. No need to start flaming them when you don't know their true motives. In any event, leaving all questions of right or wrong aside, one can imagine if somehow this slips by until 4th year, maybe even after matching, and then is discovered. Then you've got potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and no career prospects for a stupid bad grade that easily could have been explained away in an interview or personal statement as simple immaturity/poor time management which you have since improved upon. Pretty dumb.

I agree with your practical advice -- the consequences of getting caught are too severe to take the risk. I'm not sure the OP should get a pass on the moral/ethical question, though. It doesn't seem like he was merely asking a hypothetical question out of curiosity...

 

[lrkoehle]

The most irritating thing to me about this situation is that I had blocked high school out of my mind, including my awful math dual enrollment grades, until I saw it brought up on this site. If I had not seen it here, I could have honestly said that I had forgotten I ever took dual enrollment and had no issue leaving it off of AMCAS.

I am currently trying to see if I can do some sort of total grade replacement, so that my old grade gets totally replaced from my transcripts. If I can just get them removed from my record that would be the best, but would that mean I don't have to report them? I don't feel like I would have to, since they wouldn't be on my record.

In the end, if I have to put these grades on my application I will, but that doesn't mean that I am not going to try to find some way to fix this problem.

 

[futureboy]

The most irritating thing to me about this situation is that I had blocked high school out of my mind, including my awful math dual enrollment grades, until I saw it brought up on this site. If I had not seen it here, I could have honestly said that I had forgotten I ever took dual enrollment and had no issue leaving it off of AMCAS.

I am currently trying to see if I can do some sort of total grade replacement, so that my old grade gets totally replaced from my transcripts. If I can just get them removed from my record that would be the best, but would that mean I don't have to report them? I don't feel like I would have to, since they wouldn't be on my record.

In the end, if I have to put these grades on my application I will, but that doesn't mean that I am not going to try to find some way to fix this problem.

Maybe you could petition the school to convert your grades to pass/fail. This should help, assuming you passed all the classes. However, you would need to read the AMCAS instructions very carefully to see what you need to report.

 

[Excelsius]

if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

Instead of trying to jeopardize your future, explore the regulations. If I am not mistaken, adcoms know when you have taken courses while in highschool and don't count those as part of your regular college GPA, especially if you have received high school credit for those classes. Contact AMCAS and ask them how you should handle coursework that was part of your high school curriculum. Your GPA isn't bad either. So don't try ruining your future over something that may not even matter for you application.

 

[lrkoehle]

Maybe you could petition the school to convert your grades to pass/fail. This should help, assuming you passed all the classes. However, you would need to read the AMCAS instructions very carefully to see what you need to report.

I am going to try to get them to remove the grades from my record completely. On the college's website, they give certain prereqs (ie taking a placement exam) before you can take the dual enrollment courses, but I never took the placement exam. Based on that, I should never have been given credit in the first place, and I honestly believe I was not qualified at the time to be taking courses for college credit. I emailed the school earlier this evening, so I guess I will see what happens.

For me, I never had this credit transfered to either of the colleges I have actually attended, so I hope that makes taking care of this problem easier.

 

[lrkoehle]

Instead of trying to jeopardize your future, explore the regulations. If I am not mistaken, adcoms know when you have taken courses while in highschool and don't count those as part of your regular college GPA, especially if you have received high school credit for those classes. Contact AMCAS and ask them how you should handle coursework that was part of your high school curriculum. Your GPA isn't bad either. So don't try ruining your future over something that may not even matter for you application.

You say adcoms won't include it when they calculate our GPA, but what about on AMCAS? Do adcoms even calculate a gpa for us? Damn dual enrollment...

 

[Arjuna]

if you don't submit CC coursework that you've done in High-School, would Medical Schools know that you took the classes even if it isn't on your undergraduate transcript? I mean come on, if they can't find out, by all means who would submit it anyway if it shoots down your gpa? This whole process is a game and I believe any edge will help.

I would not risk this-sure it will affect your G.P.A but there has to be a better way; something tells me you can retake/audit these classes or convert them to pass/fail. Worst comes worst, petition for a full withdrawal of courses, I think someone I know did this. But lying is a very dangerous route. I dont know when you are going to apply but more applicants apply every year, and they are just looking for excuses to screen people out. In your case, they could even ban you from applying ever again-definitely not a good situation😱. So, please reconsider your thinking and do something other than cheat yourself. Please.

 

[lrkoehle]

I would not risk this-sure it will affect your G.P.A but there has to be a better way; something tells me you can retake/audit these classes or convert them to pass/fail. Worst comes worst, petition for a full withdrawal of courses, I think someone I know did this. But lying is a very dangerous route. I dont know when you are going to apply but more applicants apply every year, and they are just looking for excuses to screen people out. In your case, they could even ban you from applying ever again-definitely not a good situation😱. So, please reconsider your thinking and do something other than cheat yourself. Please.

A full withdrawal of courses? How would this work after you have already completed the courses? I took one class back in '03, almost 6 years ago now. God, I want to go back an punch my high school self in the face.

 

[scarletgirl777]

A full withdrawal of courses? How would this work after you have already completed the courses? I took one class back in '03, almost 6 years ago now. God, I want to go back an punch my high school self in the face.

There are some even 4 year colleges that will "erase" grades--recent ones too! To cover itself, AMCAS specifies that these grades need to be reported anyway. So you still have the ethical obligation to report them, and if for any reason it's discovered, all the consequences discussed will happen.

It sucks that there aren't more high school guidance counselors saying "Take your college classes seriously, they all count." But plenty of people have crappy GPAs starting from when they're actually in college and get in anyway, so this doesn't have to be the end for you.

And lol at the falsification of medical records analogy. Sadly, there are plenty of people who really do use that kind of logic to justify those alterations!

EDIT: There is nothing holier than thou about pointing out that something is immoral. No one's claiming to be a saint, they are simply pointing out that something is immoral. Personally, I think it's the total lack of shame that gets me.

EDIT 2: Not sure if this is correct, but I've heard (I guess read the fine print) that p/f or auditing the class is equivalent in their mind to trying to erase the grade--and so you'd still be obligated to report. Better to take care of all that before the class after the fact is over.

 

[lrkoehle]

I found this in the AMCAS instruction manual:

"Course Work
For each college you have attended, you will need to click the Add
Courses link in order to proceed.
Enter courses exactly as they appear on the transcript of the school
where they were originally attempted, not as they appear on the
transcript of any school, which may have accepted the courses in
transfer.
Exception: Repeated courses and courses removed from your
transcripts or GPA as a result of academic bankruptcy,
forgiveness, or similar institutional policies should be entered
exactly as they appeared on the transcript issued prior to
removal/repeat."

I guess that ruins my idea of a total replacement or removal of these grades. Oh well, it won't destroy me.

 

[pnoybballin]

Is the college listed on here OP?
http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DVEV/ev_ParticipatingSchools.asp

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/...nts.asp?demo=1

"A requesting institution can use this screen to verify an applicant’s assertions regarding previous attendance at other educational institutions, including failure to disclose information regarding previous attendance."

 

[pnoybballin]

Here's an example OP from the University of Miami School of Medicine.

http://www.mededu.miami.edu/MedEd/divisionsFolder/student_affairs/Registrar/

Enrollment and Degree Verification Requests


The Miller School of Medicine's Registrar's Office will no longer be processing Degree or past enrollment verification . As of May 10, 2005 the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine has authorized the National Student Clearinghouse to provide degree and enrollment verification. If you are an Employer, Credit Grantor, Insurance Company, Background Screening, etc. please contact the National Student Clearinghouse at any of the following:

Web: www.studentclearinghouse.org or www.degreeverify.com

You've been forewarned.

 

[lrkoehle]

Is the college listed on here OP?
http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DVEV/ev_ParticipatingSchools.asp

Is there any school that is not listed on there? That is a lot of schools. I wish my high school would have made it more clear to us how important a dual enrollment class was. I probably wouldn't have just blown it off like any other high school class. damn immaturity.

 

[student1799]

I think your best bet is to try to get the grades converted to P/F. Then they won't affect the GPA calculation.

If this attempt is unsuccessful, you're pretty much stuck. I agree that the AMCAS rules are ******ed and unfair, but the risk of trying to hide something like this is too great. Your whole future could be over before you know it.

If you are stuck with the lower GPA, you will have to adjust your thinking about what schools to apply to. The sad fact is that many places may be out of reach for you now. Yes, there are some schools which will cut you slack over this (as they should, IMO), but med school admissions is often highly robotic, and there are many places that won't--it takes too much effort. If you are dead set on certain schools/geographical regions (god forbid you live in CA or NY), you may have to take extra classes to mitigate the damage.

Good luck sorting everything out.