NP's who have gone on to med school?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

nmk62303

New Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2006
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
Hi, I am new here. I am a NP in my 8th year of practice. I am investigating medical school. Are there any other NP's out there who could advise me as to how you went about this process? Any tips? Any others who came in from a nontraditional approach, already in healthcare, out of school for several years, that can give me some guidance/perspective? I do live nearby to some great state supported schools for pre-reqs but honestly I just don't know where to start. Thanks!

Members don't see this ad.
 
Hi, I am new here. I am a NP in my 8th year of practice. I am investigating medical school. Are there any other NP's out there who could advise me as to how you went about this process? Any tips? Any others who came in from a nontraditional approach, already in healthcare, out of school for several years, that can give me some guidance/perspective? I do live nearby to some great state supported schools for pre-reqs but honestly I just don't know where to start. Thanks!
Whether your an NP or have any other nontraditional background, the place to start will be about the same. You need to complete the premed prereq's and take the MCAT. You likely completed some of the prereqs (but not all of them) as a nursing student. So you have some options.

1. Find a decent school with an active premed program. Talk to the premed advisor about what courses you need to take, and possibly what courses you need to retake for review. This will likely take you 1 to 2 years to complete, plus 1 year to apply.

2. Find a post-bacc program with a direct link to medical school. These are hard to get into. But if you do well, they will guarantee you a spot in medical school. This will take you only 1 year. And because of the direct link, there is no application year. So this would be the quickest route. You can find a list at http://services.aamc.org/postbac/. Remember to look at those programs with linkages, like Goucher in Maryland.

Best of luck,
Mike
 
To the OP I just have some advice. Hope you don't take this the wrong way but really think long and hard, why you want to go to medical school. Is it because of the more autonomy you'll have as a doc? Is it because of more financial incentive? Is it because you feel like you will get more respect? I don't know.
Medical school is a hard road. I am living it, and right now it's kinda sucking for me. The first two years were ok, difficult but ok. Third year on the other hand is proving to be a little tougher. There are alot of personalities in medschool. Anyway, maybe I'm a little bitter right now, but I am questioning medical school right now. I just failed a rotation and have to repeat three months of it. I think it was BS, but hey I don't think I have a leg to stand on. Anyway, it's the subjectivity of third and fourth year that sucks.
Anyway, feel free to PM me if you want. I was an RN myself before medschool and now I feel like maybe I should have instead gone to gradschool or CRNA school instead.
If I was making NP pay which is I hear is pretty good, doing what I wanted, that means being a PCP and had some autonomy I would really have a hard time giving that up and heading down the LONG, HARD, EXPENSIVE, road of medical school and putting up with some of the personalities there. Just my own personal opinion.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I agree 100%. You should think LONG and hard.

I can't imagine why you would embark on this. Med school is absolute hell. That is not even considering the strain MCAT and pre-reqs put on your life (family, job, et cetera)

I consider that I have lost two years my life (I'm a second year). Absolutely gone. If I were dying of cancer there is no way this is how I would spend the last years of my life.

Definitely don't do it if you want to do primary care ... it isn't worth it ... you already do basically the same thing as a PCP. If you want to do something like heart surgery then the only way to do it is be a doc.
 
I wanted to reply to the OP. Yes, of course think about it but I assume you are already doing that, thus the post.
As a physician assistant and a non-trad, I can say I am absolutely thrilled about my decision to return to medical school. I was just accpted last week to my first choice school so I am very excited. All of the doctors I work with have been very supportive and I know I am doing the right thing. I know the school years will be difficult, but you already know that too. I still believe it will be worth it.
As for the advise for preparation, for me the most difficult hurdle was the MCAT. Fortunately, I am a good test taker. However, when I took the MCAT in April, it had been 15 years since I had general chemistry. I had only one semester of Physics and I had no organic chemistry (I am finishing these pre-reqs now). I did not want to delay the process until completing all of these. I took an on-line Kaplan course which I found helpful. So if it has been a while since your basic science courses, either take refreshers or take a study course for the MCAT.
Other than that, I did not find the application process as stressful as many people. I had great mentors and was able to get good LOR's.
If you have any other questions, please feel free to PM me.
Good Luck.
 
To the OP: Why do you feel the need to go to the med school? I hope that you don't take it as a negative, I'm just asking. i have been an RN for almost 16 years, and thought of doing NP, but applied to several carib schools, and was accepted to all (surprise, surprise). I did to semesters at ROSS, but withdrew for health problems. I thought taht I'm ready to go back, but something is holding me. I'm not sure that this is what i really want. the idea of being an independent practitioner these days is more of a fantasy than a reality. Medical economics suck across the board. I'm also a Licensed Acupuncturist, and was in the private practice prior to "shoving it all" and leaving for ROSS. Between those 2 professions it's not really difficult to pull six figure income, and remain sane, and continue having a life, and a family. But what is it that's pushing guys like us, who are seemingly doing well, to "step in it" I wonder. to me the thought of "What if?", and "I could've, I should've" is more daunting than the process of med school itself. But for the past 2 years I'm absolutely split on it. I don't live my life as I should,b/c in my mind "soon I'm going back to the med school", but then I'm not going, and keep deffering b/c I'm not sure. Just can't make up my mind. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack this thread with "my, me, and mine", but the OP asked for some opinions / stories, so I'm sharing mine. I also would love to hear from others, especially the allied health folks, who are not totally "crossing over" to another profession, but expanding in the current one.

Thanks All
 
I'm an FNP now in my second year of practice and applying to med school this cycle. I encourage you to investigate applying and can tell you what I've gotten out of this process.

-The big question that I'm sure you have considered is...what is the role you want to fill that requires physician training. When I applied to NP school, I had been a nurse for a few years and never considered medicine. After a year in the program, I realized that I loved medicine. I had an "aha" moment where I realized that my biggest joy was working a broad differential diagnosis and that the NP focus was limited by education and scope of practice. I now work in a very acute setting as an NP, and am doing well, but envision a future as an Internist/Hospitalist. For that, I both want and require the full medical school experience.

-Getting the pre-reqs done (I needed all of them) has not been difficult, but has been time consuming. You presumably have a master's degree and while you might feel you would benefit from a formal post-bacc program, you do not need to do one. There are some benefits to doing them, but they are full-time and expensive. I have found that only the Junior College here has either the space for a non-matriculated student and scheduling that works for a working person, and I have been very happy there. I did do one summer school chemistry class at a local super-star university and did well, giving my other grades some context and credibility.

-The MCAT. Give yourself enough time and a structure (whether it is a class or home study). I don't know other clinicians who have taken the MCAT, but I think that NP training and experience will help you indirectly. After I took it, I realized that it was very much like the case-study format I was already very comfortable with from NP school and working with real cases. The MCAT is largely passage-based. You are given a whole lot of data and basically need to quickly analyze the information and make some conclusions. You have to decide which info is essential to your conclusion, which data supports it, which data is irrelevant and which data is misleading. You have all of about two seconds to process this information (which is the biggest challenge of the test). Questions will either be asking you for what your conclusion is (based on the data), or will start asking "if you changed this one variable how would your conclusion change". It's basically like seeing a patient with a headache in a 15 minute urgent care visit. At the end you would make your assessment and would be able to answer (if asked) "if the pain was bilateral instead of unilateral, how would your assessment change?" Of course, the MCAT is asking about wave forms instead of headaches, but the way we are trained to think as NP's comes in extremely handy on the test.

-For me, the most challenging part was breaking the news to my NP program. I went to my advisor (I'd been out of school about a year) and she first tried to talk me out of it and then was supportive. She wrote me a recommendation letter and I'm fairly confident that it will be good (I asked for a confidential letter). Unfortunately, other people (both faculty and classmates) have not been as understanding. I would advise that you make sure that if you get a letter from your program, you go to someone who will really write you a good letter. You have been out long enough that you will (presumably) get teacher letters from the pre-reqs and could have employer letters address your clinical skills.

The previous posts illustrate common reactions to your idea of going NP to MD. Most clinicians who know me (NPs and MDs) are extremely supportive. Some MDs are like "are you crazy?", and some NPs feel that I should stay in nursing to teach and be a leader. Ultimately, this life is your journey and you should do whatever you want.

I have met a lot of pre-health students at the Junior College (both young college students and non-trads) and I keep coming back to the idea that you should figure out what your dream job is and what training you need to get there. Then you should evaluate what sacrifices you are willing to make. You should go for the training you need as long as it does not exceed your commitment to make sacrifices. I have met several people who want to "be a doctor" but do not seem very interested in the day-to-day work of medicine. I have also met people who are very interested in medicine, but have clear limits to the amount they want to sacrifice that are not realistic when you consider what (especially) residency requires of people. There is also the financial hit, which is huge. I did the math and if I end up making xx amount more per year over my NP salary, given the the tuition and lost NP wages, I need decades of full-time work to break even.

Having said all that, I am extremely happy with my decision to apply to medical school. I could have a long and happy career as an NP, and will do that if I don't get into medical school. It's good either way and you'll have to weigh the pros and cons for your own goals and desires. Good luck and don't let people talk you out of it if pursuing the MD is what you decide you want to do.

Best Wishes.
 
I'm a CRNA, Masters from Georgetown, retired Navy, recently accepted to Harvard Extension School Health Careers Programs (All of the sciences for the MCAT + sponsorship). Now the reality: walking away from a lucrative and challenging private practice, including level-1 trauma and a partnership at a small community hospital. I've worked toward this dream (ER MD) for 25 years (I'm 44 now) and now that the ball is on the five yard line I go back and forth between two good decisions. This is rare in that I am usually quite decisive. As of this moment I am packing up in Sep, moving to Boston, getting privileges at a Harvard teaching hospital and going to school at night. I'm not the brightest academic (3.4 GPA) but I am an exceptional clinician. Not gifted, just hard working, conservative, caring, and competent. I enjoy the rigor and challenge of "the only easy day was yesterday" philosophy. Anyway, this has been all about me, and I appreciate the opportunity to "think out loud" along with the rest of you. I invite strings from all perspectives, and appreciate the work ethic and motivation of everyone here. One day you may be taking care of me. Seems I'll be in good hands!
 
To the OP:

As the others have said, make sure this is exactly what you want. I was a RN for 6 years before starting medical school. I wanted more than NP and CRNA had to offer. Right now I'm doing my internship and loving every minute of it.

The first thing to consider is the premed part. The premed work is stressful because you have to do well in all of the classes (read make mostly if not all As) and the MCAT is a monster of an exam. After all of the premed work there is still no guarantee of getting in. If you are coming from a lower GPA (less than 3.3) you will need to do even better to prove yourself. It will be a major battle.

Next to consider is the time required for medschool:

During the first 2 years I studied about 8 hours per day. You don't necessarily need to study this much to pass but if you want to do anything competitive you will need to be in at least the top half of your class which means studying more than your peers. The more competative of a specialty you want the higher up in the class you will need to be. The scores from your board exams (Step 1 and Step 2) that you will take during medical school will be heavily weighed (like the MCAT getting into medical school) by residencies so you will have to study very hard to do well on them also, again not just pass. Being that you are older you may end up wanting one of the more competitive specialties. (read jobs where you make more money while working less hours, known as "lifestyle jobs") Many of the older students at my school chose one of these specialties. So, when considering the time required during medical school I would go into it thinking of putting in more than the minimal effort. The load of material that you are given to learn and memorize during medical school is just amazing. It has been said to be like trying to take a sip of water out of a firehydrant. It is not impossable but to excell above your peers (many who are very, very smart) you will have to put in the work. I didn't realize how competative all of this was until I entered medical school. I had thought once I got in that all of that stuff was over. The so called "lifestyle jobs" are very highly sought after. For example, some of the programs I interviewed at had 700 applicants for 15 spots.

During the 3rd year you are on ward rotations. This means working 80+ hours per week while trying to read and study on the side. Again, if you want a competative specialty you will have to work a little harder than your peers. It's not competative (at least it wasn't at my school) to the point where people try to make you look bad but you get evaluated against your peers which means getting there a bit earlier, staying late to help out and knowing the answers to the endless questions the attendings like to ask you on rounds.

Now, I'm in my internship working 80+ hrs per week, lots of overnight call with 4 days off per month. It leaves very little time for anything but work and sleep. It has been a hard road but worth it for me. There are others I work with who say they would not do it over again. The newness of being "doctor" quickly wears off and then its just a very stressful job with long hours.

So here's what it will cost in time: Premed 2+ years, medschool 4 years, residency 3-10 years (depending on what specialty you decide to persue). By the time I'm out of residency it will have taken about 11 years from the start of my premed with a cost of about 140K in loans. Again, remember that some of these years are spent working 80+ hours/week with lots of overnight call. This is sort of like working 2 full time jobs!!

If you have kids or enjoy having time with your family you really need to consider these things and decide if it is worth the sacrifice. I don't mean to come off as negative but you need to realize how stressful and time consuming this process will be.

Hope this helps.
 
I'm not the brightest academic (3.4 GPA) but I am an exceptional clinician. Not gifted, just hard working, conservative, caring, and competent. I enjoy the rigor and challenge of "the only easy day was yesterday" philosophy. Anyway, this has been all about me, and I appreciate the opportunity to "think out loud" along with the rest of you. I invite strings from all perspectives, and appreciate the work ethic and motivation of everyone here. One day you may be taking care of me. Seems I'll be in good hands!


WOW. What an arrogant comment. The people who think of themselves as exceptional, are usually, in my experience, the least caring and competent among us. I hope you learn to check your ego at the door of your med school interviews buddy.
 
WOW. What an arrogant comment. The people who think of themselves as exceptional, are usually, in my experience, the least caring and competent among us. I hope you learn to check your ego at the door of your med school interviews buddy.

I've learned that there are a lot of arrogant jacks on Student Doctor Network. Several people have told me that I'm too old (26) to do what I want to do (MD/PhD) and that I'm wasting my time in research or getting a Master's (to overcome a very low Undergrad GPA). A lot of people think that because people need to develop a thick skin in science and medicine then they have implied consent to put you down and belittle you. It's a shame really...
 
WOW. What an arrogant comment. The people who think of themselves as exceptional, are usually, in my experience, the least caring and competent among us. I hope you learn to check your ego at the door of your med school interviews buddy.

You think it's an incredibly arrogant comment to say that you're hardworking, caring and competent, even though you're not gifted? Pretty humble comment. Nothing wrong with thinking you're an exceptional clinician if you really are.

Also, I doubt the people who think of themselves as exceptional are the least caring and competent. I'll bet there's a positive correlation. That sounds like one of those PC arguments that dominate on SDN. Just as there is a positive correlation between arrogance about something and actual ability. I'm not defending arrogance. I hate arrogance. But that's the un PC reality.
 
I've been dying to ask some questions here. Well, first, let me tell you that I am a graduating NP in women's/adult health. So, I haven't started working yet and I know I will love working once I do. But, what I have recognized about myself is that I'm not okay with any defecit of knowledge out there within medicine that I could pursue. And, though I love having the time with my patients, I want to have complete autonomy with regard to my practice and my care. While NPs are very independent in many states, there is still a gap. My father is an internist/rheumatologist who actually encouraged me to go to NP school because of the opportunity to be anywhere and enjoy my life a little more.But, I only say that because i realize how much work it is and the role it must play in your life. And, I also am not interested in ever not working even if I have children. Unfortunately as feminist as I am, I do acknowledge that is a problem in medicine...over 40% female physicians are not practicing by the age of 37. and, then there's a spot in medical school...as well as a shortage in physicians especially in rural areas.

I guess what frustrates me the most is having to go back and take undergraduate pre-med courses. I really feel that my science for preparation to np school was great and I'm wondering if anyone doesn't know if there's any sort of appeals process for this. And, particularly if I applied or wanted to be in a smaller, less recognized school that maybe struggles with enrollment...and placement for physicians. I know I will need a good MCAT score but c'mon...someone has got to think it's ridiculous to have to go back and take undergraduate science when you're already seeing 30 patients a day in a clinical setting.

and, this may anger someone but this is exactly the kind of divide that serves to separate healthcare and refuse a true synergistic relationship. for instance, wouldn't it be great for the healthcare system to have one collaborative class a semester with nursing, medical, public health, social work...etc. students. It might facilitate a more effective way to communicate and ultimately provide the best patient care.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Chache,
I feel your pain...but the prereqs are generally non-negotiable. There are a handful of programs that don't have specific required prereqs. MUSC in Charleston is one.
Since I graduated with a B.S. Biology before PA school, I have a bit of an advantage in that most of the prereqs were required for my program. The only thing I haven't taken is physics (yuck). But I'm still dragging my feet on physics.
I know very well the feeling one poster above mentioned, the waffling on this decision...is it worth the 7+ years of sacrifice, making little or no money, putting off children, seeing my sweetheart even less than I do now, to satisfy this itch I've had to know more and do more than I do now? I've been a practicing PA in family medicine for six years and in ER the past 5 months. I've enjoyed a fairly high level of autonomy in the past (not nearly as good in SC as I had back home in OR, but that's another post). But I've never been satisfied.
Don't take for granted the purpose of the prereqs is to help you do well in the core sciences: biochemistry ain't easy! Undergrad biochem wasn't easy although I enjoyed it, and mine was really more of a survey course for bio majors, not to the depth taught in med school. Sure, med school will be the 4th time I've taken dissection A&P, but even in PA school I wasn't expected to learn it quite to the depth of the med students.
Biochem and organic really helped me understand pharmacology. Cell bio helped me understand pathophys. It's all worth something.
Best to you all,
Lisa PA-C
 
I got a chance to read through a couple of the messages... I'm a PA practicing for the pass five years... I'm going through the application process now..with three acceptances so far...

Listen whether PA or NP if you have that itch, it will always be there.. In my situation i just didnt want to turn around 10 ten years from now wondering the same thing... my advise do as I did... i took it one step at a time...it's not about trying to enroll the very next year...

I said to myself, I will take my time, take the prereqs i'm missing ... study the MCAT, apply and if I get in make the decision... I got to a point where i would be much more satisified if I was able to say i tried and couldnt get in versus not trying at all....
 
Hey I am also a FNP. It has been great to read most of the comments posted as they are helping me. I finished my MSN 3 years ago and am now going to take the MCAT. I have not taken any of the prereq's and plan to do self study for the MCAT, b/c of my living situation (another post).

I have found that I want to know more, what I was trained with is not enough for me. If this is your hearts desire then I say go for it. It will be a long hard road but don't let your self regret not going five or ten years from now.

I just can't believe there are so many of us, NP's and PA's, that are looking to go back. :thumbup:
 
First of all I'd like to congratulate you on your desire to obtain knowledge. That was my desire as well. I'm a previous ICU RN whose now in medical school at IU. I also have a masters degree in Biology.

Here's what I've learned in the process:

Pre-reqs are non-negotiable in most cases and no matter what type of science training you received in nursing, it is NOT sufficient to prepare you for the MCAT or for the basic sciences in medical school. Nursing is notoriously weak in basic science compared to Pre-Medicine....I know because I have done both. Remember, the reason you stated you wanted to become a physician was because there was a knowledge gap.....part of that gap is those measely undergrad courses as they lay the foundation for understanding the concepts of your basic science years in medical school. I urge you to recognize the importance of this step because a positive outlook and interest in the pre-reqs will help ensure your success. As you know, you need to shoot for very good grades....I assure you if you hate organic chemistry to the point of not wanting to do it, you will not do well.....that class was, is, and will always be the bane of myself and fellow classmates.....YUCK!!!

Anyways, the pre reqs are generally similar for most schools: 1 yr organic +1 yr inorganic chemistry (not the watered down versions) 1 yr physics, 1 yr biology (this is also not the watered down version....you take the same class as bio majors).....etc. The MCAT is a MONSTER......read that again....... However, your case-based familiarity will help you, but without adequate knowledge in the pre-req disciplines you will not do well. A good way to see what I mean is go to the book store and buy an MCAT review book and see if you can answer the questions....if so, then your knowledge is good......but remember, medical school still won't let you in without the pre-reqs.

I've also learned that the basic sciences taught in the first 2 years of medical school draw deeply off of the pre-reqs in undergrad....for example....calculating the mean electrical axis of the heart involves vector analysis, Frank-Starlings law and how length versus tension effects the contraction of the heart.....etc. Both require a sound knowledge in physics. Also, medical schools are increasingly emphasizing molecular biology. This is a field that nursing barely even touches on. I just want you to make sure you don't short yourself....and maybe not get accepted all bc you're weak on pre-reqs. I know several nurses, some with advanced degrees, who did not get in because they were weak in science (this is part of the reason that nurses have a historically low acceptance rate to medical school) Many also had to obtain bachelors or masters degrees in other fields to get accepted....myself included.....and when I applied my GPA was a 3.74 with a 30 MCAT.

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE that your reasons for choosing medical school are sound and true to your needs because there is no guarantee to getting accepted and you may have to try more than once. It is a VERY time consuming and difficult path. IF you decide it is for you, then go for it....the journey is extremely self-fulfilling and rewarding!!!
 
Thanks fireball and bm0839 for your perspective. I suspect for me it is and will be the same---I won't be satisfied until I just do it. *Sigh* I do wish I could just get comfortable in my nice little life but it hasn't happened yet in nearly 7 years of PA practice...and I have had some pretty good autonomy at times.
Let's turn the discussion a little bit: what do you all (and I mean those of you who have been in practice, not the usual SDN premeds who haven't been there, done that) envision as the future of medicine the next 10-20 yr? I've had conflicting advice, from academic physicians who tell me it's not worth it to go back to med school if I want to be in primary care (my first love), as primary care will be doled out to the midlevels (ick, hate that term). Right now I don't have a great desire to specialize, but that could change. I enjoy derm for example. And then others say, just do it!
What do you all think?
Thanks,
Lisa
 
anyone out there used to be a mortician? Any undertakers go off to med school?
 
Well, first of all, medicine is becoming increasingly more complex on the molecular level. Because of this, expect some really radical new treatment options that will amaze the world. Secondly, I have the utmost respect for all practitioners regardless of what level they're at....that being said, a physician is a physican and the public knows it. There is no substitute....before I say this, let me qualify my statement in saying that there are always going to be Dr's who are complete *******es.....okay, here we go..........I'm going to direct this to the future of family physicians.........it's kinda like I can't believe it's not butter.....most PA's and NP's are perfectly capable of competently handling a very wide variety of clinical presentations and cases. They will treat identically to and with the same end result as the Physician. You couldn't tell the difference. However, every now and then there's that time where you just plain need real butter to get the recipe right. This is exactly why the family physician will NEVER go away! There is always going to be the need for their expertise in managing certain patients. Now will the number decrease in the future? Maybe.....I can visualize a system where in the clinic most healthy or mildly ill patients are mostly seen by NP's and PA's but then seen by the physician every so often just so they can check in. Also, the more complex patient's would be seen by the physician routinely.

I may be wayyyyyyyy off when I say this because nobody knows for sure, but I can confidently say that if you love medicine.....GO FOR IT because you will ALWAYS be needed and have the security of the occupation. Just think about it, I've gained a lot of knowledge in my years as an ICU nurse......many times, my knowledge was equal to or superior than some of the NP's I worked with, however, my knowledge wasn't even a drop in the bucket compared the physicians knowledge. Let's use a scale of 1-10 arbitrarily for in depth knowledge of everything that goes into medicine........

average Joes knowledge is about a 1-2......they know what they read on the internet and thus mostly have tunnel vision.

Mid-level Healthcare workers such as RN's etc have about a 4-5 on average.....they know quite a bit about the basics of stuff and some in-depth clinical info due to their experience......for example....an ICU nurse......she knows that vagal responses will decrease heart rate, BP, etc....and knows that a wedge pressure measures pressure in the Left Atrium and when combined with a CVP gives you appropriate hydration info, etc.

Your advanced practitioner such as a PA or NP is about a 7-8 on this scale. They are well versed in their area....So they in turn would know that the vagal response is a parasympathetic response mediated by the vagus nerve which will blah blah blah.........also they will be able to diagnose a variety of conditions, give appropriate orders concerning various meds, and I really don't have to tell you because you're a PA....so you know what your knowledge base is.

A Good Physician is about a 12 on this scale. They will not only tell you that a vagal response is parasympathetic and mediated by the vagus nerve, but they will also tell you that the vagus nerve is CN #10, sends branches to the carotid body, is composed of superior and inferior laryngeal branches which provide input and output from the larynx and that the neurotransmitter used in the preganglionic neurons is Acetylcholine which is received by nicotinic receptors in the postganglionic axon which then transmits the neuronal action potential to the target organ by once again using Acetylcholine....but with the muscarinic receptor this time....this will result in a greater trend towards hyperpolarization of the myocardium and decreased conduction at the AV node thereby causing the decreased heart rate.....also, this response will constrict bronchiole smooth muscle. By the way, there are 3 isotypes of muscarinic receptors ....M1, M2, M3.

So you see my point.....this is a little oversimplified but nonetheless accurate. If you want to do it man......DO IT. I know I did, and I don't regret one minute of it. Knowledge, especially about the human body, is perhaps the most sacred gift of all. If one has the talent and ability to acquire this knowledge then they are blessed because if they pass the opportunity by, they will always be thinking about what could have been. I say this because you will never stop thinking about being a Dr until you do it. I know I couldn't. Hope this helps.....remember, physicians are not going anywhere.....there will ALWAYS be a need for Good Doctors as well as NP's and PA's.
 
Well said.. and I agree. NPs get enough education to get by, but not enough in molecular and cellular level of understanding. That's why I am also going back to school after getting my NP.:smuggrin:
 
...A Good Physician is about a 12 on this scale. They will not only tell you that a vagal response is parasympathetic and mediated by the vagus nerve, but they will also tell you that the vagus nerve is CN #10, sends branches to the carotid body, is composed of superior and inferior laryngeal branches which provide input and output from the larynx and that the neurotransmitter used in the preganglionic neurons is Acetylcholine which is received by nicotinic receptors in the postganglionic axon which then transmits the neuronal action potential to the target organ by once again using Acetylcholine....but with the muscarinic receptor this time....this will result in a greater trend towards hyperpolarization of the myocardium and decreased conduction at the AV node thereby causing the decreased heart rate.....also, this response will constrict bronchiole smooth muscle. By the way, there are 3 isotypes of muscarinic receptors ....

I studied so hard for the MCAT that I actually knew about this stuff! I wonder what category that puts me in... :rolleyes:
 
I'm still a PA and I could already tell you this...but thanks for sharing.
(Maybe our physiology, pharm and pathophys were better at our program? Don't think so....)
But I appreciate your encouragement.
Lisa

A Good Physician is about a 12 on this scale. They will not only tell you that a vagal response is parasympathetic and mediated by the vagus nerve, but they will also tell you that the vagus nerve is CN #10, sends branches to the carotid body, is composed of superior and inferior laryngeal branches which provide input and output from the larynx and that the neurotransmitter used in the preganglionic neurons is Acetylcholine which is received by nicotinic receptors in the postganglionic axon which then transmits the neuronal action potential to the target organ by once again using Acetylcholine....but with the muscarinic receptor this time....this will result in a greater trend towards hyperpolarization of the myocardium and decreased conduction at the AV node thereby causing the decreased heart rate.....also, this response will constrict bronchiole smooth muscle. By the way, there are 3 isotypes of muscarinic receptors ....M1, M2, M3.
.
 
I'm still a PA and I could already tell you this...but thanks for sharing.
(Maybe our physiology, pharm and pathophys were better at our program? Don't think so....)
But I appreciate your encouragement.
Lisa

I'm still a PA student and amazingly enough, I knew that too. We're S-M-R-T , us PA's.
 
...A Good Physician is about a 12 on this scale. They will not only tell you that a vagal response is parasympathetic and mediated by the vagus nerve, but they will also tell you that the vagus nerve is CN #10, sends branches to the carotid body, is composed of superior and inferior laryngeal branches which provide input and output from the larynx and that the neurotransmitter used in the preganglionic neurons is Acetylcholine which is received by nicotinic receptors in the postganglionic axon which then transmits the neuronal action potential to the target organ by once again using Acetylcholine....but with the muscarinic receptor this time....this will result in a greater trend towards hyperpolarization of the myocardium and decreased conduction at the AV node thereby causing the decreased heart rate.....also, this response will constrict bronchiole smooth muscle. By the way, there are 3 isotypes of muscarinic receptors ....

We got that in Pharm 1.
 
We got that in Pharm 1.


Sorry if I offended anyone by my illustration.....that's not what I meant to do. I just wanted to make an illustration and I probably could've done it better (my example was really simple). I do have the utmost respect for PA's and NP's, etc, and the training you guys/gals receive.....remember, I was an ICU nurse for many years before medical school.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the training is definitetly much deeper when you go the MD or DO route. There is no question that there is a huge difference, and If it's knowledge you're after, either MD, DO, or PhD would be the way to go.

Also if your desire is to practice medicine fully without restrictions, the only way to do currently in the US is via the MD or DO degree. Once again, my comments were not meant to inflame, just to illustrate.
 
Well, first of all, medicine is becoming increasingly more complex on the molecular level. Because of this, expect some really radical new treatment options that will amaze the world. Secondly, I have the utmost respect for all practitioners regardless of what level they're at....that being said, a physician is a physican and the public knows it. There is no substitute....before I say this, let me qualify my statement in saying that there are always going to be Dr's who are complete *******es.....okay, here we go..........I'm going to direct this to the future of family physicians.........it's kinda like I can't believe it's not butter.....most PA's and NP's are perfectly capable of competently handling a very wide variety of clinical presentations and cases. They will treat identically to and with the same end result as the Physician. You couldn't tell the difference. However, every now and then there's that time where you just plain need real butter to get the recipe right. This is exactly why the family physician will NEVER go away! There is always going to be the need for their expertise in managing certain patients. Now will the number decrease in the future? Maybe.....I can visualize a system where in the clinic most healthy or mildly ill patients are mostly seen by NP's and PA's but then seen by the physician every so often just so they can check in. Also, the more complex patient's would be seen by the physician routinely.

I may be wayyyyyyyy off when I say this because nobody knows for sure, but I can confidently say that if you love medicine.....GO FOR IT because you will ALWAYS be needed and have the security of the occupation. Just think about it, I've gained a lot of knowledge in my years as an ICU nurse......many times, my knowledge was equal to or superior than some of the NP's I worked with, however, my knowledge wasn't even a drop in the bucket compared the physicians knowledge. Let's use a scale of 1-10 arbitrarily for in depth knowledge of everything that goes into medicine........

average Joes knowledge is about a 1-2......they know what they read on the internet and thus mostly have tunnel vision.

Mid-level Healthcare workers such as RN's etc have about a 4-5 on average.....they know quite a bit about the basics of stuff and some in-depth clinical info due to their experience......for example....an ICU nurse......she knows that vagal responses will decrease heart rate, BP, etc....and knows that a wedge pressure measures pressure in the Left Atrium and when combined with a CVP gives you appropriate hydration info, etc.

Your advanced practitioner such as a PA or NP is about a 7-8 on this scale. They are well versed in their area....So they in turn would know that the vagal response is a parasympathetic response mediated by the vagus nerve which will blah blah blah.........also they will be able to diagnose a variety of conditions, give appropriate orders concerning various meds, and I really don't have to tell you because you're a PA....so you know what your knowledge base is.

A Good Physician is about a 12 on this scale. They will not only tell you that a vagal response is parasympathetic and mediated by the vagus nerve, but they will also tell you that the vagus nerve is CN #10, sends branches to the carotid body, is composed of superior and inferior laryngeal branches which provide input and output from the larynx and that the neurotransmitter used in the preganglionic neurons is Acetylcholine which is received by nicotinic receptors in the postganglionic axon which then transmits the neuronal action potential to the target organ by once again using Acetylcholine....but with the muscarinic receptor this time....this will result in a greater trend towards hyperpolarization of the myocardium and decreased conduction at the AV node thereby causing the decreased heart rate.....also, this response will constrict bronchiole smooth muscle. By the way, there are 3 isotypes of muscarinic receptors ....M1, M2, M3.

So you see my point.....this is a little oversimplified but nonetheless accurate. If you want to do it man......DO IT. I know I did, and I don't regret one minute of it. Knowledge, especially about the human body, is perhaps the most sacred gift of all. If one has the talent and ability to acquire this knowledge then they are blessed because if they pass the opportunity by, they will always be thinking about what could have been. I say this because you will never stop thinking about being a Dr until you do it. I know I couldn't. Hope this helps.....remember, physicians are not going anywhere.....there will ALWAYS be a need for Good Doctors as well as NP's and PA's.

I can tell you all that after taking advanced human phys in undergrad. I get your point, but was all that really necessary?

oops, sorry didn't realize that had already been said..
 
I got a chance to read through a couple of the messages... I'm a PA practicing for the pass five years... I'm going through the application process now..with three acceptances so far...

Listen whether PA or NP if you have that itch, it will always be there.. In my situation i just didnt want to turn around 10 ten years from now wondering the same thing... my advise do as I did... i took it one step at a time...it's not about trying to enroll the very next year...

I said to myself, I will take my time, take the prereqs i'm missing ... study the MCAT, apply and if I get in make the decision... I got to a point where i would be much more satisified if I was able to say i tried and couldnt get in versus not trying at all....

Well, I'm not an NP or a PA but I am a med student and at this point in time, I'd be completely happy to trade places with you. It is true that you might always have "that itch" (one of the reasons I decided to go ahead and go to med school instead of do something else) but it doesn't mean that the thing you itch for is better than what you have. After just one semester of med school, I'll easily say that if it weren't for the HUGE amount of debt it would leave me with, I'd walk away from med school and go into a nursing program. Yes, being a doctor is perhaps more desireable to types like you and me than being a nurse or in your case a PA. But it would take me two years to get through a nursing program (instead of 7), I'd graduate with very little debt instead of the $330K that I will owe when I graduate, I'd be making decent money, and my children would see a whole lot more of me. This would be pretty desireable to me right now. As it is, I'm just gonna keep on chugging and hopefully I won't be bitter before I'm out of residency, but I'm telling you, its not as great as it seems beforehand.

I'm sorry if I'm being disheartening, but I am serious, if I could, I'd give you my spot in med school (complete with my loans of course) and I'd leave and not look back. Its not that I hate it, but that I've realized that I really DON'T need it as much as I thought I did before starting. I'd be happy doing something else that required a lot less work.
 
I didn't take it as inflammatory at all. I appreciate your input. I agree, at this point the big motivating factor for me to go to med school is to deepen my knowledge and understanding of medicine, AND to be able to practice medicine independently. The big deterrent at this point is the opportunity cost of going back to school (e.g. lost income, more debt) and just the inertia factor.
Lisa PA-C

Sorry if I offended anyone by my illustration.....that's not what I meant to do. I just wanted to make an illustration and I probably could've done it better (my example was really simple). I do have the utmost respect for PA's and NP's, etc, and the training you guys/gals receive.....remember, I was an ICU nurse for many years before medical school.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the training is definitetly much deeper when you go the MD or DO route. There is no question that there is a huge difference, and If it's knowledge you're after, either MD, DO, or PhD would be the way to go.

Also if your desire is to practice medicine fully without restrictions, the only way to do currently in the US is via the MD or DO degree. Once again, my comments were not meant to inflame, just to illustrate.
 
I was NP before I went to med school. Now I'm just over half way though a general surgery residency and I regret having gone to med school

I did one of those NP programs where you didn't have to be RN first. Worked a couple years in primary care and was bored. I had started out as pre med in undergrad, and got my NP in my early 30's.

I had to go back to school to shore up my GPA, take the MCAT (after a review course), and the first time I didn't get in. I spent some more money on classes, retook the MCAT and finally got in. I acutally loved medical school. It hasn't been until this year, when I'm paying more attention to what life will be like as an attending, and I don't like what I see.

Medical reimbusement is crazy and rapidly getting worse. MD's have to work more and more to keep making the same amount of money. Patients are becoming more demanding and more suspicious that doctors are trying to harm them. Increasingly the lay press is putting out articles with titles such as "What your doctor won't tell you".

To top it off, I'm now 45 years old with about $200K in student loan debt (after all the preparation and actual med school) with nothing saved for retirement. I'm very concerned about my financial future.

I understand being NP and feeling like you want to be the MD. But now that I'm here, it's just a pain in the a$$. A large part of me wishes I could go back to the NP role, providing good care but being able to leave it behind when I"m not at work...no call, no weekends, etc.

At my current residency program, midlevel providers are used extensively in roles that are in many ways equivalent to the role of a resident physician. Had I been in the position to have an inpatient job in a specialty practice in a state with liberal rules for midlevels, I might have been happier. I know I would always have wondered what it would be like to be MD.

That said, I don't think anybody could have talked me out of pursinng medical school at the time. I got my stubborn mind wrapped around the idea and kept pushing til I got what I wanted. As they say, be careful what you wish for, you might get it. Part of me still can't believe that I regret having done it (It was all I worked toward for so long...)

What I lost is not only finanical secureity, but also control of my life. It's a major struggle to maintain any semblance of a social life. I"m still single no kids, and most guys are intimidated by a female MD as well.

If you do decide to purse medical school, my advice to you would be to do so as economically as possible, even if you have to take a year or two more to prepare. Nothing can replace the time value of money that you will lose in medical school, or the money that you will have to put into repayinig student loans. I'll expect my first job in 2 years (assuming I don't do a fellowship) will start in the $250-$300K range, so paying off that $200 loan debt will be a major burden.
 
I've been an NP for 2 years and feel the same as most of the other posters. I like medicine a great deal and enjoy being a clinician. But......(there's always that but) I feel like I don't know enough, that there are too many restrictions placed on NP's and I would really like to do more.
It may be hard and I may not like it any better, but I would hate to look back and regret that I never tried.
BTW....(a little judgemental I know and admit it in advance) Supercut...you were in your mid or late 30's by the time you started med school and yet you are blaming your lack of retirement fund, husband, kid and close friends on med school. Where were you say from 18 to 35? Maybe not all your problems are med school based?
Just my thoughts...Good luck to you all. I love hearing about people that pursuing their dreams.:luck:
 
Thanks again Supercut for your perspective. I've appreciated your points on these matters in the past but of course you know that little voice in the back of our head that keeps saying, "If you never try, how will you know?"....
Your experiences, and those of many other clinicians who have moved on to become physicians, give me pause. They also help spur me on.
I'll probably just do it one of these days...just not today.
L.
 
Top