nurse anethesists

[mx_599]

Propaganda.

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[schutzhund]

Why do you feel sorry for them?

I think the folks in those places are glad that those NP's and CRNA's are willing to stay in those communities and practice. Not all sick people live in NYC, L.A., Chicago, Philadelphia, Miami, Dallas and Houston.

I would rather they have the care of a trained CRNA or NP than no care at all.

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.

 

[zenman]

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

I'm not fully awake yet, but how does your answer have any relation to the quote above it?

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.

I'm an FNP student and I don't intend to play doctor. If that was my goal I'd have gone to medical school. I just don't see the sense in spending years and a lot of money on learning a system based on an ancient science, and one that people are turning away from. Unfortunately, I've got to learn more of it in order to do what I want.

And is it true that the death rate drops when doctors are on strike...sorry, just could not resist

 

[billydoc]

Not me.

That's one of the WORST excuses I've heard (and I've heard it before a lot). That's like saying "I'm going to let Clem at Buba's Mini-mart and Lube fix my $100,000 Porsche because I don't want to tow it to a bigger city."

It's not like we're in Uzbekistan. We need to train more DOCTORS and not people who want to play doctor.

Last time I checked there were no practicimg CRNAs and NPs in Uzbekistan or any other "Crapistan" in Central Asia. You'd be glad to get some "medicine" from some cammel's arse, given to you by shaman
But why such bitterness towards advanced practice nurses? I suppose you are still a premed, or may be a PA? I don't see such negativity in a real Wolrd.
Once you realize that there are more patients to go around than you could possibly attend to safely, all this rubbish disappears. What is this idealistic view that only MD or D.O. can provide quality care? Most plastic seorgens I know prefer to use CRNAs in their practices. Those CRNAs aren't cheap, in case you're wondering. Many D.Os amd even M.Ds have created partnerships with NPs, once they realized the potential of multiplying their practice growth, which is based on cooperation, not competition. In today's health care environment ppl are to busy trying to "make it." Most doctors don't even have time to engage in this pi$$ing contests, and ego-mania.
Good Luck

 

[schutzhund]

I'm not fully awake yet, but how does your answer have any relation to the quote above it?



I'm an FNP student and I don't intend to play doctor. If that was my goal I'd have gone to medical school. I just don't see the sense in spending years and a lot of money on learning a system based on an ancient science, and one that people are turning away from. Unfortunately, I've got to learn more of it in order to do what I want.

And is it true that the death rate drops when doctors are on strike...sorry, just could not resist

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies' structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school..

 

[mx_599]

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

I couldn't have said it better myself because I have not done both...or even one yet. (in process) Few on this site have done both.

 

[rn29306]

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives....

Hey chief..Just a lowly SRNA here, but while this is SDN, realize this the "Medical Background - Clinician" forum that is specifically listed for RN/NP/PA/PT participants.

Just FYI.

 

[schutzhund]

Hey chief..Just a lowly SRNA here, but while this is SDN, realize this the "Medical Background - Clinician" forum that is specifically listed for RN/NP/PA/PT participants.

Just FYI.

You're right.

If you have any questions about pre-med, MCAT, medical school admissions, medical school basic sciences or clinical rotations, medical licensing exams or post-graduate medical education for people with medical backgrounds I would be glad to answer them. Seriously.

"Forums for doc and pre-doc students with backgrounds in the health professions."

 

[zenman]

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

Yes, I’m for real. You can ask my physician clients…which have included a Chief of Orthopedic Surgery.

Today is Thursday and the last day of the week for us here in Asia. I think it was Abe Lincoln who stated something to the effect that, "I can not let your lack of knowledge, sir, take precedent over my grasp of the subject." With that in mind, nothing is more fitting today than for me to start off the weekend by enlightening you a tad.

Medical science...(well it's not really a science, it just employs the sciences) is so "ancient" that if say, a physicist went to a medical seminar, he'd think he had stepped back in time.

I guess if I say, “Newtonian-reductionistic-materialistic paradigm,” that you would start to get a handle on things. While this approach has some value it is certainly limited, and to base an entire system on it is about the dumbest thing I can think of. Do I need to elaborate anymore here?

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing.

“Great health care” is being offered safely by mid-levels as the research shows. “Great medical care,” however, I’ll leave to physicians as it’s not what I want to do. “Truly understanding medical care" will be your role as a physician; “health care” is my focus.

It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

Your use of the word “machine” means so much here doesn’t it? This is one reason so many patients go elsewhere. They don’t want a “mechanic.” They prefer a “gardener.” I hope you can figure that one out. I guess this is what you get when you start off studying dead people instead of the living!

You also will never understand all the complexities of the human being by focusing only on the hard sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

I see this everywhere, even by physicians who should have referred out but did not.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

It’s always interesting to know your background as it gives me insight into your way of thinking. My background is 31 years as a nurse in many practice settings. I also have studied Asian Medicine and I’m a Zen Shiatsu therapist. Also hold a masters in psych nursing and an MBA. Now, I’m an FNP student.

Your goals and desires were not being met by your NP program. That is fine as you should go where you want to go. However, you want a “deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically.” That’s fine also if that’s what you want, although you are limiting yourself somewhat. If you want a real challenge, look into the mind-body approach.

I can’t understand why people keep comparing NP training to physician training. It’s not supposed to compare as it’s a different level of training! What’s so difficult about this concept?

Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

And even when they graduate they are still wandering in the wilderness! They are now fully trained, as you say, as a “mechanic.” Mechanics need tools and electricity to do their job. You can’t do your job if the electricity goes out, can you?

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Instead of fighting a losing battle, why don’t you fight to get more care to the people who are falling through the cracks. It would even be nice if we had an ARMY medic in every square mile to do routine health checks...or would they not be trained to a sufficently high level in your opinion?

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

I’m not trying to insult you but to educate you. As I said earlier, NPs “safely” manage patients and have the research and track record to prove it. Does “evidence-based” mean any thing here?

In regards to your sacrifices, I offer the following:

O.T. Bonnett, M.D., author of Confessions of a Healer: The Truth From An Unconventional Family Doctor, in talking about his peers, stated that, "Unfortunately, like most physicians, they were trapped into rigid patterns of thought, belief, and action bought on through years of the intellectual brainwashing that has passed for medical education. Actually, doctors are poorly educated! Their education consists of training along a very narrow path, and they wear huge intellectual blinders as they go. Anything appearing in their intellectual peripheral vision is suspect, frightening, and likely to be ignored."

More from Dr. Bonnett..."The doctors finally graduate and finish training but with little real skill in applying it in life situations, for they have been trained not to get close to or familiar with their patients. Highly trained as they may be, they are virtually isolated from feelings, the humanity of their patients, and the world in general. Many new doctors are, therefore, both frightened and defensive."

And more..."Physicians have a vested interest in rejecting new ideas. Part of the reason for this is that most doctors have little training in deductive thinking. What serves as thought is mostly recalling, with accuracy, what has been previously memorized."

And finally..."One of the most compelling reasons physicians reject new ideas is fear of change and the need to protect their block of medical information, which serves as their clearest bridge to others and the world."

Physicians are also socially ignorant as they have their nose buried in books during a formative period in their life when they should be out hiking across Europe or engaged in other fun activities! While in business school, a fellow student and recently retired thoracic surgeon, admitted that he had no social skills outside the operating suite. "I'm useless at parties," he told me!

Some other things for you to think about: "The American health-care system is at once the most expensive and the most inadequate system in the developed world," according to the New England Journal of Medicine.

Medical errors rank as the eighth leading cause of death in the United States – higher than motor vehicle accidents (43,458), breast cancer (42,297), or AIDS (16,516) - Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, 2002

One in five Americans (22%) report that they or a family member have experienced a medical error of some kind. This translates into an estimated 22.8 million people with at least one family member who experienced a mistake in a doctor's office or hospital. - The Commonwealth Fund, 2002

If our healthcare system is so great, why are we ranked 37th of all countries studied (World Health Organization) as to the health of the population, cost of health care, allocation of public and private funds for healthcare and the ratio of our current state of healthcare compared to what we could be. Even Cuba was ahead of us!

I feel better now, thanks. Hope I’ve given you something to think about.

 

[lizzied2003]

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

Curious...how long did you actually 'work' as a nurse . Also, did your coworkers throw a huge party before you left or afterwards? I believe if you are this self righteous and all knowing as a MS III you must have been a real treat as a nurse.
I subspecialize as an NP and i work alongside (not for) a brilliant ivy league physician. What makes him wonderful and respected is his ablility to take care of the 'patient' as a human being first. Everything else follows. He is able to actually stand back when things don't go well and look at what he may have done wrong rather than looking for someone with less knowledge or education to blame. Thats doctoring.

 

[billydoc]

Hey Schutzhund!
I think you've picked the wrong fight. You'll never get respect if you won't give one to others. You'll never lift yourself up by putting down others. You may score some cheap points, and try to hotshot people with your status, but with such bitterness and almost hatfulness you'll never make it big and far in the real World. I agree that there are some so-called mid-levels, who take upon themselves way more than they could handle, but so there are many docs. As you said...it's a human nature, albeit for some, T.G. I did study in medical school also for two semesters. I did fine, but I realized that I was just pacifying my ego. I was already helping ppl as an RN x 15 yrs, and as a licensed acupuncturist in private practice. At some point, I guess, I had that male version of PMS , and felt underachieved, but it was only in my quite detached from the reality mind. My patients, almost all of them, love me, and ask for me by name. That gives me a lot more satisfaction, than say parading my "MD" in their faces, and to make me feel how "great" and knowledgeble I am. So your sacrifice should be respected, but it was your personal choice, and possibly an ego trip. But you could have as many degrees as thermometer, it still won't make you a better practritioner, and certainly not a better person.

Good Luck in whatever you do

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).

The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Please do me (us) a favor: Do not come on to studentDOCTOR.net and insult all of us that have sacrificed so much time, money, energy, and effort of our lives to pursue medicine and tell us that we're learning an outdated "ancient" science and that you can safely manage our patients after undergoing a two year program that is not even in the same plane as medical school.

 

[chicoborja]

kundun,

How white of you to "consult" with those other professionals before laying down the law the way a good doctor should!

Are you really so egotistical to think that as a doctor you will know more about all of the various health care professions than all the expert professionals in those fields?

Given the name of this thread, I'll start with anesthesia....unless you are an anesthesiologist, you will not know more than a CRNA knows about anesthesia!!!!!

Hmmm, maybe a physiatrist would know more about rehab than a physical therapist.

Only a psychiatrist MIGHT know more about psychology than a PhD psychologist.

Some pediatricians would know more than a speech language pathologist knows about language development.

I could go on and on, but the point is docs know a lot more about a lot of things, but NO ONE knows it all -- chill a little and realize that other healthcare professionals will HELP you do the right thing to best help the patient.

And remember, Dr. quarterback, that Dan Marino never won the super bowl because football, like healthcare, is a team sport!

I understand your analogy; however, I disagree with at least one point. Most pediatricians (with possibly the exception of a few academic developmental pediatricians) know very little about language development. As a whole, speech-language pathologists are the experts on speech and language development. There are psychologists that are also experts in the field but it is because of pediatricians general lack of knowledge regarding speech and language development that intervention for many children comes so late.

 

[Docgeorge]

Curious...how long did you actually 'work' as a nurse . Also, did your coworkers throw a huge party before you left or afterwards? I believe if you are this self righteous and all knowing as a MS III you must have been a real treat as a nurse.
I subspecialize as an NP and i work alongside (not for) a brilliant ivy league physician. What makes him wonderful and respected is his ablility to take care of the 'patient' as a human being first. Everything else follows. He is able to actually stand back when things don't go well and look at what he may have done wrong rather than looking for someone with less knowledge or education to blame. Thats doctoring.

Edit: Sorry shultz.... you sounded like someone I met on one of my rotations.

 

[oldManDO2009]

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it. The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care - the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman

Mid-level providers are just what the title indicates and they will also be my colleagues. I have worked in the ER as an RN with some dedicated NPs and PAs - they do a great job. Every PA, NP and doc I have worked with knew when to step back and consult - can't know it all.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest. Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience. oh wait that's a science thing - just give the patient some herbs and meditate away that metabolitic disorder.

okay - I am done with this rant

 

[fuegorama]

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it. The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care - the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman

Mid-level providers are just what the title indicates and they will also be my colleagues. I have worked in the ER as an RN with some dedicated NPs and PAs - they do a great job. Every PA, NP and doc I have worked with knew when to step back and consult - can't know it all.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest. Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience. oh wait that's a science thing - just give the patient some herbs and meditate away that metabolitic disorder.

okay - I am done with this rant

Well said.
Fueg-RN/EMT-P/MSIII DO2B

 

[lizzied2003]

I believe he worked as a nurse/floor director untill 2003 when he started medical school. He has also worked as a paramedic and is an ACLS instructors. HE was one of the people selected for training the core body of ACLS instrutors of for Ireland. That should help shed some light on to the credentials of this individual.

But that's not what i mean...i'm not asking about his credentials. Teaching ACLS or being a core instructor show dedication and i'm sure only boosted his application. But i meant worked as a nurse (no not a floor director either).
By the way...no need to answer. it's not really my business. I just wanted to clarify what i meant.
It's very discouraging to read a post about how much one knows as a MS in relation to all that a nurse doesn't or a midlevel doesn't . Making it less toxic by saying you worked as a nurse doesn't make it less insulting to all those who actually do or did. I think it's the same sort of insult that one sees when discussing how much better a MD is compared to a DO. It devalues everyones contribution. I believe the 'jist' of the post that i made reference to spoke of the the 'problems with the midlevels' and i found the generalizations insulting.

 

[zenman]

schultzhund - DO NOT ENGAGE ZENMAN! He has this idea that western medicine is outdated and the cr@p he spews is REAL medicine - don't believe it.

This is really sad! The stuff I told you about western medicine is not my stuff. If you check the posts, you'll see where I quoted physicians...so you see that I have researched this area. You can read your own medical journals and even the local newspapers if you find time to get your nose out of the books and you will someday catch up to me. I don't spew any crap as everything I do is evidence-based. And yes, western medicine is outdated without a doubt, sadly. Perhaps that is one reason we have data such as this (gathered by a physician):

1. 1/3 of the US population is using complementary therapies routinely
2. More visits are made to complementary medicine providers than to primary care physicians
3. $40 billion per year is spent out of pocket on these therapeutic options
4. 1,200 randomized controlled trials are already published in professional journals
5. The NIH is spending more than $300 million per year on research in the area of CAM.

Like it or not, customers are leaving the modalities that you are spending so much time and money on. You do what you want; just don't call me a crackpot or I'll put you in touch with some the physicians I've treated in the US. They can put you back in your medical student place.

The minute he is really sick he will be in the ER to get western medical care -

Of course I'm in the ER if I need to be. I've had surgery twice. But I rarely get sick because I know how to stay healthy. Do you know how to treat a healthy patient? Probably not. You can only spring into action when something goes wrong. And I'll say it again, if the electricity goes out you are totally helpless.

the only tragedy is that he may have convinced a patient to ignore sound medical advice and take a bunch or herbs or meditate away the tumor....

I don't ignore "sound medical advice" but I do keep in mind the limitations of western medicine and of course the damage it can cause.

Check this guys posts - he is a nut job. I am a medical student and I hang out here sometimes because I am also a nurse and the DO forums don't have zenman

You're a medical student and trying to sound like you know something? You realize, I hope, that you know little. Your professor will clarify that for you. As for me being a nut job, go do some research.

Unfortunately, people like zenman leave the impression that as an NP he will be able to meet all of his patients needs and that because he was a nurse for 31 years his experience makes the difference.

You fail as a psychic. Your impression is yours. As an NP I will not be able to meet all my clients needs...no one can do that. My 31 years of experience just puts me way ahead of you, nothing else.

What a load of cr@p - my first month of med school removed that delusion. I could understand the basic problems associated with a disease such as CHF and the common treatments as a nurse because I used that set of skills everyday. I realized how little I knew as I dove into neuro, biochem, physiology, and anatomy. I look forward to developing a new set of skills built on that science thing zenman detest.

I don't detest science. However, I realize it's limitations as many scientists will also tell you.

Some how he will be able to understand that defects of carnitine acyltransferase cause muscle weakness and he will have to understand the difference between beta-oxidation and glycolysis and the problems his patient will experience.

Guess, I'll have to pull out my old copy of Guyton's that I've had for years in order to review this difficult stuff.

Just for fun treat this patient with your "science." 44 year old male carpenter disabled due to pain from herniated discs. Also a recovering drug addict with cirrhosis.

Now get him back to being a productive human being.

You do have one positive thing going for you if you go the DO route. However, you need to study in England to get it right. But what do I know about what's happening in the world!

 

[Docgeorge]

...It's very discouraging to read a post about how much one knows as a MS in relation to all that a nurse doesn't or a midlevel doesn't.

I'm sorry you get discouraged about hearing the truth. The fact of the matter is Medical School is different then Nursing school, NP school (most of it's was on line), and PA schools.

Dont take my word for it. Take the word of those people who were mid-levels or nurses and then went on to medical school.

 

[Docgeorge]

...Guess, I'll have to pull out my old copy of Guyton's that I've had for years in order to review this difficult stuff.

If your copy of Guyton is 30 years old, it's out date.

 

[jwk]

Boy did this thread get off topic - it started out talking about nurse anesthetists and now it's voodoo and med students who already think they know all.

 

[oldManDO2009]

did not mean to get so far off the topic -zenman gets me distracted. I actually considered CRNA programs prior to getting accepted to med school. I wasn't sure how I would handle the sitting behind the patient and doing the same procedure every day (administering anesthesia). I work in an ER right now and there are days I don't even sit down and think how nice it would be sitting behind a patient and administering anesthesia

Let me be clear as a medical student and one day a doctor - I will not know it all and barely know enough to get through exam week (starts Monday )

I was wondering zenman what kind of science do they teach in your NP program? Last time I checked out NP programs - most required an advanced pathophysiology course and pharmacology. looks like science to me...oh cr@p I'm off topic again - damn you zenman damn you!

 

[lizzied2003]

I'm sorry you get discouraged about hearing the truth. The fact of the matter is Medical School is different then Nursing school, NP school (most of it's was on line), and PA schools.

I would never advocate NP school online. In fact, i think it's near criminal to allow a bridge between RN to NP without ever having to really cared for a patient. IMO the 24 year old , just out of school who is practicing as an NP is ridiculous. At least in medical school the 24 year old is starting a path in learning to care for patients.
Also, I'm not ashamed to say that 90 percent of what i've learned as an NP is the result of previous interaction with patients and observing physicians in a teaching enviroment and now through mentoring with physicans. Because i work in an acute care setting it is hard for me to embrace some of the philosophies of my peers and i actually do probably practice different than my NP family practice colleagues.


With that being said; in my state you are not allowed to work as an NP unless you sit for the boards . Unfortunatley, that standard is not the same for the physicians. We have an ED full of doctors who aren't even board certified in IM, never mind sub specialty. Does it make them bad doctors? Heck no. But it's ironic to some degree that we hold our own to a higher standard that the AMA.

 

[schutzhund]

For clarity, again, please re-read my posts. I do not hate RNs, NPs, PAs, techs or even the housekeeping staff. In fact, I think I'm a pretty nice person. Everyone has their place in the world and in healthcare.

It's not insulting to point out the fact that physicians have substantially more education and training than midlevels or RNs. That's reality. I am not being demeaning to anybody by saying this. That's just the way it is. Physicians are not "better people" or even necessarily smarter than anyone else, but they do have a lot more education than the people you mentioned. I think there are some larger societal issues that have made it politically incorrect to point out that fact. Look above this post, who here is demeaning and who is just stating reality?

What I do dislike and strongly disagree with are people who want/expect all of the rights, privileges, respect (yeah right) and autonomy of a physician without going through all the work. I jumped into this thread because I'm tired of hearing "I'm a CRNA and I can do everything an anesthesiologist can" or "an NP is just as qualified to manage pts as an MD/DO."

I'll say it again; it's scary because you don't realize how much you don't know. If anything, medical school has taught me humility. Yes, that's right, humility. I realize every day how much I don't know and appreciate the vastness of medicine. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually knew. This is why some mid-levels concern me so much.

Some midlevels, and I realize not all or probably most, develop an over-inflated sense of confidence and ability and try to convince others of this. Then you get a group of providers lobbying politicians for increased practice rights and autonomy while most physicians are unaware or too busy to pay attention. It's a disturbing trend.

I wish you all well in your future.

 

[schutzhund]

BTW, thanks for the complements Docgeorge, but I think you have me confused for someone else.

 

[lizzied2003]

For clarity, again, please re-read my posts. I do not hate RNs, NPs, PAs, techs or even the housekeeping staff. In fact, I think I'm a pretty nice person. Everyone has their place in the world and in healthcare.

It's not insulting to point out the fact that physicians have substantially more education and training than midlevels or RNs. That's reality. I am not being demeaning to anybody by saying this. That's just the way it is. Physicians are not "better people" or even necessarily smarter than anyone else, but they do have a lot more education than the people you mentioned. I think there are some larger societal issues that have made it politically incorrect to point out that fact. Look above this post, who here is demeaning and who is just stating reality?

What I do dislike and strongly disagree with are people who want/expect all of the rights, privileges, respect (yeah right) and autonomy of a physician without going through all the work. I jumped into this thread because I'm tired of hearing "I'm a CRNA and I can do everything an anesthesiologist can" or "an NP is just as qualified to manage pts as an MD/DO."

I'll say it again; it's scary because you don't realize how much you don't know. If anything, medical school has taught me humility. Yes, that's right, humility. I realize every day how much I don't know and appreciate the vastness of medicine. The more you learn, the more you realize how little you actually knew. This is why some mid-levels concern me so much.

Some midlevels, and I realize not all or probably most, develop an over-inflated sense of confidence and ability and try to convince others of this. Then you get a group of providers lobbying politicians for increased practice rights and autonomy while most physicians are unaware or too busy to pay attention. It's a disturbing trend.

I wish you all well in your future.

I'd say that's a nicer way of putting things. I wholeheartedly agree about not realizing what you don't know. I said previously in a post..the minute i say to myself 'how come the other guy couldn't figure this out' there is something starring me right in my face i should have seen.

 

[zenman]

If your copy of Guyton is 30 years old, it's out date.

It's not that old; trouble with Guyton's book is that there's not enough pictures

 

[zenman]

I was wondering zenman what kind of science do they teach in your NP program? Last time I checked out NP programs - most required an advanced pathophysiology course and pharmacology. looks like science to me...oh cr@p I'm off topic again - damn you zenman damn you!

Focus oldman, focus. Here's a really good meditation book to help you, "The Wooden Bowl" by Clark Strand. And a good yoga class will help you with breathing, movement and getting in touch with your body. Yes, an advanced patho and pharm class is about all the "science" there is. If there was any more, I'd choke up and cry! Remember, I don't want any more "science." I'm bored with it, except for the latest in quantum physics and psychoneuroimmunology (and how shamans already knew it before anyone else!). What really gets me going is actually touching a human being and "feeling" what's going on. Docs used to learn how to touch a human being before anything else; don't know why they dropped the most important subject. Now go hug a tree

 

[oldManDO2009]

I am a DO student which means the first two years are nothing but anatomical landmarks and treating somatic dysfunction. I'll have to lay off you for now zeman - enjoy your program and I'll go cut down a tree just for you

 

[zenman]

I would never advocate NP school online.

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.

In fact, i think it's near criminal to allow a bridge between RN to NP without ever having to really cared for a patient. IMO the 24 year old , just out of school who is practicing as an NP is ridiculous.

I agree here and think they need at least 2-3 years before NP school.

Also, I'm not ashamed to say that 90 percent of what i've learned as an NP is the result of previous interaction with patients and observing physicians in a teaching enviroment and now through mentoring with physicans. Because i work in an acute care setting it is hard for me to embrace some of the philosophies of my peers and i actually do probably practice different than my NP family practice colleagues.

Do you think that NP school is geared more to the medical model and was any "nursing" included? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "some of the philosophies of my peers" and how you practice differently than your NP buddies?

 

[jwk]

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.

Learning math and history online is one thing. Learning how to take care of patients online? What a crock!!!

You can learn about signs and symptoms out of a book or online all you want. Learning to APPLY that knowledge and PROBLEM SOLVE comes ONLY through actually working with patients. You can't listen to heart and lung sounds online. You can't perform procedures online. You can't perform a physical exam online. That comes with actually laying hands on MANY patients and learning to recognize subtle differences in what's normal and what's not.

And once again - how the hell does this relate to nurse anesthetists, the original topic? (you can't learn that online either)

 

[lizzied2003]

Why the trouble with online programs? I went "online" for a few minutes and learned this: Benefits of online learning:

Does not require physical attendance.
Most online courses can be taken anytime, early morning or late at night and anyplace.
Some online courses bring together students from all over the world, creating a network of global resources and knowledge.
Online learning can be customized to your abilities and skills.
It enables student-centered teaching.
Increases student interaction.
It teaches skills in using technologies.
It’s less intimidating than in the classroom…level playing field undisturbed by race, gender, age, etc.
Increases bonding and camaraderie over traditional classroom settings.
Online course development allows for a broad spectrum of content, ie, anyone can access learning materials without worrying if it is already checked out, for example.
Over 75% of colleges and universities in the US offer online degrees and research shows the online programs are as respected as traditional programs.
Online classrooms facilitate team learning.
Students can attend class when they are fully awake and at a convenient time for them, rather than rigid time frame.
Greater diversity of course material. Note: My website is even being used by a university for reference material!
I would not have the opportunity to attend NP school if there were no online programs. That would mean one less NP in the world!
Test grades are available immediately!
You can check test grade stats to see how you compare to the rest of your class.
Online learning accommodates different learning styles.
Reduces faculty time spent on “administrivia.”
Online classes utilize time more efficiently.
Reduces facility workload
Students can pursue areas of learning rather than sit through lectures aimed at an entire group.
No drive time. This time saved could be used for another degree or other beneficial pursuits.
Less pollution from your gas guzzler auto…and expense.
Personalized instructor feedback at convenient times.
Greater market potential for struggling universities.
Less costs for universities.
Allows international partnerships at a lower cost for universities and students.

Looks like the traditional classroom is out of date.



I agree here and think they need at least 2-3 years before NP school.



Do you think that NP school is geared more to the medical model and was any "nursing" included? Can you elaborate on what you mean by "some of the philosophies of my peers" and how you practice differently than your NP buddies?

I'm guessing the benefits of online learning was tongue in cheek..right?
anyway, as far as my statement about practicing differently. NP schools are loaded with theory...it is how lucky you are to get good clinical placement that will help define how you will likely practice. Because i worked in acute care and then trained in an acute care setting and worked as a house officer I would say it has guided my thinking to be more medical model than nursing. The only component that I likely carry from nursing is the family interaction and the knowing what it's like to have a horrible day on the wards.
But i do see patients in house who have NP as outpatietns and sometimes it's been great and other times i felt like the patient should seek another person. I feel the same about doctors though too at times.

I would give you a recent example of a patient in hospital with acute renal failure and mx. co morbidities and a new pulmonary emboli. Well, she told me her providers NP had recently stopped her blood pressure medicine because she was feeling dizzy and instead started her on HCTz along with her lasix. God knows why. So she's 6 weeks post gastric bypass, can't get her breath, off her anticoagulant, and feels awful. Instead of doing something she is taken off medicines by the NP and told to keep checking her glucoses. (Thankfully she was euglycemic when her VQ scan was being done! ) and it just amazes me that this could go on. So when she shows up (and i tell her actually she has chronic renal insuff, likely from HTN,obesity, DM) she is telling me that 'no, i have no kidney troubles' and is stunned that she does in fact have chronic disease. This lady should have been referred out prior to her even getting ill. Her baseline creatinine is 1.6 and she's never had a workup. How can that be good? I hold both the doc and the NP responsible.
However, think that NP's that just get out of school with little clincal experience are scarey and are sold a bill of goods and often are not working with the creme de la creme of providers. They just want to be on their own and the doc wants cheaper help. At my hospital there are several NP's on the medical staff. They are rarely there and if an emergency with one of their patients arose it would be the PA on call who took care of it for them. Our PA"s are fantastic. Yet, when credentialing time comes these NP's are insulted the the President of the MS asks for criteria and has to recommend them for another 2 years based on clinical performance. This last statement has nothing to do with your question but i wanted to gripe.

On my way to NP hell....

 

[mx_599]

Hi,
I am curious about the program for nurse anethesists. Is this a MA degree? In what capacity do these professionals function? Do they work with anesthesiologists? What is the average salary? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks

this thread is still going? I think the original question was answered

 

[rn29306]

mx 599, that is the most doctored and phony pic I have ever seen. Surely you can do better than that.

Hope that's not your mug BTW.

 

[zenman]

Learning math and history online is one thing. Learning how to take care of patients online? What a crock!!!

You can learn about signs and symptoms out of a book or online all you want. Learning to APPLY that knowledge and PROBLEM SOLVE comes ONLY through actually working with patients. You can't listen to heart and lung sounds online. You can't perform procedures online. You can't perform a physical exam online. That comes with actually laying hands on MANY patients and learning to recognize subtle differences in what's normal and what's not.

It utterly amazes me that there is still someone who thinks that clinical is done online! Sigh!

 

[zenman]

mx 599, that is the most doctored and phony pic I have ever seen. Surely you can do better than that.

Hope that's not your mug BTW.

Can you see that face coming at you and hear "sir, I need to stick my finger up your...!"

 

[zenman]

this thread is still going? I think the original question was answered

Thank God it became more interesting

 

[zenman]

I'm guessing the benefits of online learning was tongue in cheek..right?

Not for the textbook stuff.

This last statement has nothing to do with your question but i wanted to gripe.

No problem. Thanks for the info. I got a lot of time in acute care but what really turns me on now is the chronic stuff where nothing is working. I want to write "the book" for complementary care for NPs. I think that is a better role for them than the medical model, IMHO.

 

[lizzied2003]

Not for the textbook stuff.



No problem. Thanks for the info. I got a lot of time in acute care but what really turns me on now is the chronic stuff where nothing is working. I want to write "the book" for complementary care for NPs. I think that is a better role for them than the medical model, IMHO.

I'll retract some of my opinion on online learning (not sure i'd say 'degree') but in retrospect i could have easily taken my theory and concepts class on line and probably have been happier than i was listening to someone who didn't know bedside care go on and on. As an adult learner i found i taught myself the concepts component through self study. Pharm and patho it was nice to have a community of students. Same as for chemistry/bio as an undergrad.

Regarding complemetary therapy. Not really such abad thing. However, i know that the very doctors who i get along with wonderfully would likely change some of there opinions if i started ordering less traditional stuff. (plus i know little about it). The farthest i would venture is integrative care for pain and relaxation.

 

[rn29306]

Can you see that face coming at you and hear "sir, I need to stick my finger up your...!"

OMG that was the funniest thing I heard all day. Caught me off guard with that one. Better than the vascular surg who said "oh ****" today when he nicked the aorta and caused my boring ALIF case to suddenly become VERY busy.

Dude's body is about 240-250 lbs with a 170 pound's person head attached.

Awesome post dude.

 

[mx_599]

OMG that was the funniest thing I heard all day. Caught me off guard with that one. Better than the vascular surg who said "oh ****" today when he nicked the aorta and caused my boring ALIF case to suddenly become VERY busy.

Dude's body is about 240-250 lbs with a 170 pound's person head attached.

Awesome post dude.

yeah...that was a classmate's pic that another classmate photoshopped onto Nate the moderator's avatar. he is in the pre osteo forum i think. we were having a bit of an avatar war going on. OSUdoc pic was manipulated as well

 

[rn29306]

yeah...that was a classmate's pic that another classmate photoshopped onto Nate the moderator's avatar. he is in the pre osteo forum i think. we were having a bit of an avatar war going on. OSUdoc pic was manipulated as well

Very nice mx_599. A good ole fashioned grude match and competition just makes things interesting sometimes.

 

[niko327]

I'm going to be easy on you until you are fully awake.

I hope you weren't up late spending time "learning a system based on an ancient science."

This truly has be one of the most ridiculous posts I have ever seen. I suppose things such as anatomy, physiology, pharmacology, biochemistry, and immunology are a waste of time. Nobody really needs those sciences to manipulate the bodies’ structure or chemistry in medicine. Are you for real??

See, this is the problem with a lot of the mid-level practitioners. You delude yourself into believing that you can offer great health care without truly understanding what you are doing. It is impossible to understand all of the complexities of the human machine without learning and understanding the composite sciences. .

Ask any normal minded PA what they think of this crap and I think you'd get the reaction that you had. But Thank you for your sweeping indictment of all midlevels.

The problem that I see with a lot of mid-levels is that they don't know how much they don't know. This is especially true of the younger ones. It's frightening.

You see alot of midlevels...? Really? Where, in your med school classes? What you say really stinks because I think you're talking out of your butt. If you hate NPs that's your business, wait till you work with some PAs as a physician before you pass judgement on them.

BTW, as for my background, I am not a pre-med. I'm a third year medical student. You might find it interesting that I have my BSN (for almost 10 years) and I attended an MSN/acute care NP program. I left after realizing that my goals and desires could not be met as an NP. I wanted to have a deeper understanding of the body and how to intervene medically. The level of understanding that an NP gets is FAR less than a medical student. They are not even comparable (and don't give me a bunch of BS because I have actually done both).
The reality is that most NPs, CRNAs and PAs desire all the rights, privileges, and respect that a physician has without doing the same amount of work. It's true; people admit that on this forum and in real life. Ask any NP or PA that has gone through medical school. I personally know many people that have gone through both and will openly admit 1) they really wanted to be a doctor but for whatever reason didn't do it 2) they were completely amazed how much they didn't know..

WRONG SPANKY, way off, you simply have no idea what the PA community's attitude regarding supervised practice is all about. Do us all a favor and speak for the NPs if that's what you were. Don't brand my profession guilty by association just because we too are midlevels. I never practiced advanced nursing, I did learn alot about medicine though.

The worst enemies for the midlevels are people like me who have seen both sides. In my experience, a lot of these people (me included) are the ones lobbing to reign in the expanding rights of midlevels because they realize first hand how frightening it is...

First of all, just because you got a crappy NP education somewhere, you think you know what a PAs education is all about. Here's a newsflash, your education as an NP was not PA school. Most PAs know where there knowledge gaps are and are well aware of their limitations, it's a by-product of good training. And before you even start...I don't really give a flying frack that you are in med school and that your training is superior, and you know what I don't know yada...yada..yada....take all that and bury it where no one would ever look.

Having said all of that, I do not hate midlevels. I think they can fulfill a need in healthcare. The problem is that they frequently get too big for their britches and want to do more with less supervision than they should. It's human nature.

Thanks Freud, now spout you paternalistic and patronizing crap over at the pre-med forum where people don't know any better.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I have worked with and go to school with PA's and have said on many occasions that the training a PA receives is WAY superior to ANY NP program I have ever reviewed.

now - before I am flamed to death let my clarify my comments.

I AM NOT an NP nor have I trained as one. I did review many different programs including PA, CRNA & NP programs prior to my acceptance into med school as my "back-up" plan. So I have a general understanding of the academic requirements.

The curriculum of the PA program is more consistent with a sconce based program and mirrors much of my current educational tract e.g. human anatomy, pharmacology, pathophysiology and many more science based programs along with rigorous clinical based training.

Most NP programs have a few semesters of pathophysiology and pharmacology and consider your previous training in nursing as the core science base for the advanced training. IMHO the first year of PA training would exceed the basic nursing program requirements.

People like zenman give all practitioners a bad name (doctors too) because he does not accept nor realize that all of his previous training is inadequate for solo practice. Yet this guy goes around bad mouthing science and medicine and boast about how his views (not based on rigorous medical training) are superior.

so hate zenamn - give respect to all the practitioners out there because there are some solid NP/PA/MD/DO people who know there limitations and play well together in the sandbox.

I understand where spanky is coming from having worked with some mid-levels that have made decisions way above their pay-grade and it is scary. No need to offer sweeping indictments - there are worthless practitioners at all levels - just hate the zenman for he knows not what he talks about - science is bunk. What has he been smoking lately?


rant done


sorry zenman but I gotta call you on your science hateing ways

 

[oldManDO2009]

CRNA training rocks and the salary does to - it was high on my list. forget speech therapy - we talk to much anyways. Go for whets fits for you - all the CRNA's I talked to had it together and enjoyed what they did. If it was not for people like your dad rural America would not have half the medical services they have now.

I have more of an ER personality and had to make decisions based on that little quirk. Like I said in my previous post - the majority of professionals I have worked with have been just that.

This thread got ugly when the science bashing started (I think it has been a while )

hope you find what you are looking for and good luck

 

[zenman]

People like zenman give all practitioners a bad name (doctors too) because he does not accept nor realize that all of his previous training is inadequate for solo practice. Yet this guy goes around bad mouthing science and medicine and boast about how his views (not based on rigorous medical training) are superior.

so hate zenamn - give respect to all the practitioners out there because there are some solid NP/PA/MD/DO people who know there limitations and play well together in the sandbox.

....just hate the zenman for he knows not what he talks about - science is bunk. What has he been smoking lately?

sorry zenman but I gotta call you on your science hateing ways

You really must read my posts more carefully or get someone to interpret them for you. All the "stuff" I said about science, medical education, etc. is not my original material. If you look again, you'll see where I quoted a physician several times as well as a WHO report and a medical journal. The material is out there. Our health care system is crashing and needs help. The first step in improving it is taking an objective look at where it's at, not creating your own reality of what you think it is. There was even a post recently by a physician on allnurses asking for info because she felt she was not meeting her patients needs. What I am for is INTEGRATIVE medicine. I'm all for empirical studies of "alternative" modalities as long as we recognize the limitations of even double-blinded studies.

I doubt that I will ever be in solo practice as I've been scared of my limitations ever since I started as an ARMY medic.

I usually get along with most people; just can't handle dumb people...(not talking about you or anyone else on this forum)

I'll be in the hill country of Thailand this next summer with some shamans and native healers. Want to come and see some real ****

 

[zenman]

And just today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/03/AR2005110301143.html

For Americans, Getting Sick Has Its Price
Survey Says U.S. Patients Pay More, Get Less Than Those in Other Western Nations
By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, November 4, 2005; Page A02

Americans pay more when they get sick than people in other Western nations and get more confused, error-prone treatment, according to the largest survey to compare U.S. health care with other nations.

The survey of nearly 7,000 sick adults in the United States, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Britain and Germany found Americans were the most likely to pay at least $1,000 in out-of-pocket expenses. More than half went without needed care because of cost and more than one-third endured mistakes and disorganized care when they did get treated.

 

[oldManDO2009]

is this a scientific survey or polictical diatribe???

 

[Beau Geste]

It's hard to say how valid this is - how do they define 1/3 of the US population? Are they estimating from their study, or do they mean 1/3 of the population that participated in this study? And, what part of the US are the participants from (rural, urban, suburban, what state...etc.)? What kind of health benefits do they have (Did they even have insurance)? Also, does this study take into account that there are 4 million in New Zealand, 20 million in Australia, 33 million in Canada, 60 million in the UK, 82 million in Germany, and almost 300 million
in the US.

Since our country has WAY more than the others studied, then you have to adjust for inflation. Maybe they also should have included Russia and China - countries that have a higher population than we do.

Overall, this does not sound like a statistically sound study. It sounds like numbers were not fully reviewed and twisted for shock value. I wouldn't put much stock in this particular article, especially from a liberal source. Too biased.

 

[oldManDO2009]

this idea of access to care - which is ridiculous since the ER can not turn anybody away - is not the same as the level of care provided.

okay, zenman it is a nice try to minimize the issue by stating more Americans will receive care and have better access due to a wide variety of practitioners. that is probably true.

it does not address the point that the level of NP training BASED on scientific principles is different then training received by a CRNA, PA, or MD/DO. This is my entire argument - no one else has a problem with this idea that we all receive different levels of training. For instance, as a future ER doc I would NEVER consider my self an expert in neuro surgery or would I pretend that my experience even supported that claim.

But off you go with this idea that your monk like ways make you more experienced then everyone else and our pathetic notions of scientific based treatments are so childlike and well not even close to your enlightened ways.

This idea is derived from your continual attacks on medical training (all of it NP/CRNA/PA/MD/DO). get a grip zenman and accept that your training has limitation just like my training has...the idea that putting on goat skin chaps and headdress - chanting and sacrificing chickens makes your idea of medicine superior to accepted practices is INSANE. Get in line with the rest of us and provide excellent healthcare for our patients based on accepted treatment practices or malpractice insurance will be a figment of your imagination.

rant done

hey zenman i am just giving you grief - no hate here

 

[niko327]

the idea that putting on goat skin chaps and headdress - chanting and sacrificing chickens makes your idea of medicine superior to accepted practices is INSANE.

OK, OK, OK... the goat skin chaps comment was completely uncalled for, very funny, but uncalled for.
Now Ass-less chaps, that would have been hilarious, but again, uncalled for.